Author Topic: WhadaYallmaikathis?  (Read 4432 times)

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Offline Tinsailor

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Re: WhadaYallmaikathis?
« Reply #25 on: March 25, 2017, 05:39:00 pm »
There is a lot to be said for simplicity.

Offline MrBill

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Re: WhadaYallmaikathis?
« Reply #26 on: April 12, 2017, 08:17:45 pm »
Tinsailor, did you ever figure out what the problem was? (Forgive me if I missed it in the thread)

Quick self-intro: I've been lurking around the forum since I bought a 2012 C14 about 2 and half years ago, 3K miles when I got it, 26K on it now. Running it with Steve's decel flash and a Delk 14" can. I've learned a lot from the forum and have been meaning to join, but this thread really got my attention because I've been having the same (or a similar) problem. So here I am!
 
Like Tinsailor described, bike loses power, you can especially feel it when climbing a hill or accelerating, but can feel it kind of hesitating even when just maintaining speed on level road. If I'm accelerating hard when it 'hits', the decel is really strong, almost freaked me out the first time. Could be dangerous as well, I pulled out into traffic once only to have it decel when I needed it to accel!

I'm suspecting some type of fuel issue because it has become consistent when I hit around 180 miles. I ride to work every day, so my weekly route is really consistent, with consistent riding style. Over the last 6 tanks of gas, the issue has shown up on every one, each time at around 180 miles into the tank. I've tried pulling over and turning the bike off for a few minutes, no change. Tried pulling over and half popping the gas cap open (thinking possible tank vacuum?), no change or even worse. Checked the ground (yes, pulled the battery re-cleaned and re-tightened all connections). I typically gas up around this mileage anyway, takes about 4.2 gallons each time, so I know there's gas in the tank when the problem happens. After filling up the problem goes away until I hit 180 miles again. Gas is non-ethanol 90 octane, I run a bottle of Techron thru it every 2500 miles or so.

Bike hasn't been wet for a long time so I'm thinking its NOT the flash-to-pass switch or some type of electrical switch problem. Like I said, its so consistent now that I can predict it hitting within a mile or so of 180 on the odometer.

Any ideas?
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Offline Lemon

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Re: WhadaYallmaikathis?
« Reply #27 on: April 15, 2017, 01:15:28 am »
Has nobody thought of the Tip sensor yet? Not sure where they're mounted on this bike, but on sport bikes they're usually under the main seat, attached to the subframe. If you really lean into a turn at low speeds, sometimes it will set it off. Usually kills the bike and you have to leave it shut off for a while or disconnect and reconnect the battery to clear the memory.

Offline ron203

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Re: WhadaYallmaikathis?
« Reply #28 on: April 15, 2017, 12:29:37 pm »
SEU, Look it up. Single Event Upset. When I worked for Xilinx as a "reliability Engineer", this is what I was working on. One lousy neutron hits the wrong part of a chip in the computer, and it's corrupt. Data is bad, and things don't work. Shut down, restart and chip is programmed once again, and works.
Yes, this REALLY IS science!

Electronic Brainfart.  Why not? Read an article not long ago where researchers say similar things happen to humans. That's why a pro golfer will shank the same drive one time out of a thousand times hit  the same way.  That's my excuse for everything... :))
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Offline MrBill

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Re: WhadaYallmaikathis?
« Reply #29 on: April 16, 2017, 05:19:09 pm »
Well for me at least, the symptoms don't seem to line up with tip sensor or even brain-fart, tho I can't completely rule that out. The engine doesn't cut off, just a loss of power and rough running, it 'feels' like running out of gas and or interrupted fuel flow. It is now happening consistently at 180 miles into a tank of gas, on straight and level road, for the last 6 tanks of  gas in a row.

I don't have a good mental image of how the fuel is picked up in the tank, and I've heard there's a small fuel filter there? Could it be a partially clogged filter? (there's at least gallon+ of fuel still in the tank based on how much fuel it takes at fill-up)

Anybody else seeing this issue consistently? Or have any other ideas?
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Offline Tinsailor

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Re: WhadaYallmaikathis?
« Reply #30 on: April 23, 2017, 10:28:02 pm »
The Gremlin has returned. Rode home 400 miles from Horseshoe Mtn today. Basically the bike will barely run above 4500 RPM which makes passing at highway speeds a slow process. It feels like fuel starvation but hits at the 4500 mark and you have to back off the throttle to go faster. Going to start pulling stuff tomorrow to check obvious stuff and I'm having a hard time believing that the in tank filter could be clogged at only 17K but I suppose is possible.

Offline Tinsailor

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Re: WhadaYallmaikathis?
« Reply #31 on: April 24, 2017, 10:33:40 am »
And I might add that I was in the rain this past weekend so I'll experiment when it's dry this week.

Offline jwh20

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Re: WhadaYallmaikathis?
« Reply #32 on: April 24, 2017, 11:47:22 am »
If you find that this issue only happens when you're in the rain, my top culprit would be the ignition coils.  While I've not had it on a C14, I had a Ford Escape with a V6 that had a check engine light reading misfire, and stumbling poor performance every time it was driven in the rain.  Turned out that a couple of the coils, which are almost exactly like the ones in the C14, had a problem when wet.  I'm assuming there was a crack in the sealing that allowed water into the coil which then shorted it out until it dried out.

For diagnosis I mixed up a soapy water solution in a spray bottle (the soap helps the water penetrate into the coil) and sprayed it on the coils while the engine was idling.  Sure enough as soon as I hit the bad one it started running rough.  A little harder to test this on the C14 since you have to remove the plastics, but you might keep this in mind.
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Offline Tinsailor

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Re: WhadaYallmaikathis?
« Reply #33 on: April 24, 2017, 12:52:55 pm »
That's been a common denominator, high moisture environment.

Offline Steve in Sunny Fla

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Re: WhadaYallmaikathis?
« Reply #34 on: April 24, 2017, 03:42:42 pm »
Some interesting stuff here. y'all might recall I had a somewhat similar issue with a bike that had poor grounds. The issue is as jwh20 stated, coils as they are not being well grounded and making inferior spark.  I fixed the grounds, the problem went away.  that's not suggest that's all the issue, but it's exactly where I'd start.

  Also let me toss this out there - I have a local fellow who was having issues with a real abrupt throttle off idle. pre and post flash, and in both power and eco maps. He went over the grounds and determined them to be solid. After messing with it I suggested the TPS sensor. He brought it to his dealer, who did a full service on the bike - everything - and the issue remained. So after diagnosing, they have replaced the entire throttle body (it's the only way to get a new TPS) and apparently the issue is resolved.

   Let me explain the TPS a bit. It's really just a simple rheostat, like a light dimmer switch. 5V goes in, and goes through a wiper. The voltage that comes out tells the ECU what the throttle position is. 1v would be idle, 5v would be WOT.

  There's also an IAP sensor that senses the relative amout of vacuum being generated. It works similarly but through a distention of the vacuum diaphram.

  I think if either of these sensors has an "interruption of service"  throttle glitchs are going to occur.

   High humidity is usually the time when a vehicle that's having a connectivity issue will raise it's head. Remember that the ECU can only send out information of it's receiving good information. If there's a place where the TPS had a dead spot, the ECU won't know if you've scrolled the throttle over the dead spot, and the result is going to be a dead spot in fuel delivery. Not saying this is what's going on in any of the scenarios on this thread, but it cannot be ignored, either.

  The bike that gets to 180 miles and runs out of power... pretty sure that one is running out of fuel .

  HTH, Steve

« Last Edit: April 24, 2017, 03:45:46 pm by Steve in Sunny Fla »
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Offline Tinsailor

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Re: WhadaYallmaikathis?
« Reply #35 on: April 24, 2017, 05:48:23 pm »
Besides the obvious ones at the battery and frame by the battery, what else do I need to look at

Offline MrBill

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Re: WhadaYallmaikathis?
« Reply #36 on: April 24, 2017, 10:02:38 pm »
Steve, thanks, that's what mine (the 180 miler) feels like, like its running out of gas. Due to my routine, 180 miles usually hits on the way home from work and on my way to fill up. The tank will only take a little over 4 gallons, so I know the bike is not actually running out of fuel, but that is what it feels like.

Could it be a clogged fuel filter? I looked at pictures of the fuel pump and couldn't really visualize how a clogged filter could just hit me at a specific point, but maybe I'm not looking at it correctly. I can order the replacement filter that someone mentioned earlier in the thread and pull the tank and the pump, but I'd rather not do that if that's not a likely cause...

Any suggestions appreciated.
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Offline mattchewn

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Re: WhadaYallmaikathis?
« Reply #37 on: April 24, 2017, 10:10:31 pm »
MrBill,
With a full tank the static pressure of the fuel at the sock filter will be much higher than with only 2 gallons in the tank. I would certainly go ahead and replace the filter sock and see how that works as it is a very inexpensive replacement. I bet you will see a difference.
Matt

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Offline ron203

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Re: WhadaYallmaikathis?
« Reply #38 on: April 24, 2017, 10:11:14 pm »
Sgt. Schutz here (I know NUTHING), but how long since you changed the air filter? My C-10 got to running like crap in Cortez, then I realized it was going back and forth on the dusty campground road all week and between the thinner air and some "defrayed" maintenance on the air filter, it couldn't get its air. Maybe check it?
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Offline Tinsailor

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Re: WhadaYallmaikathis?
« Reply #39 on: April 25, 2017, 01:52:22 pm »
Changed the air filter at about 10k but will check it after I clean up all the grounds which is what I'm thinking that's where the problem is. If that don't do it I'll take a grill lighter and see if I can look inside the tanks to spot the tank filter to see how it looks.

Offline Steve in Sunny Fla

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Re: WhadaYallmaikathis?
« Reply #40 on: April 25, 2017, 03:24:36 pm »
Changed the air filter at about 10k but will check it after I clean up all the grounds which is what I'm thinking that's where the problem is. If that don't do it I'll take a grill lighter and see if I can look inside the tanks to spot the tank filter to see how it looks.

It's always good to have a plan.  :-\ 

Steve
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Offline gpd323

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Re: WhadaYallmaikathis?
« Reply #41 on: April 25, 2017, 03:38:07 pm »
Do you by chance have the low fuel warning delete PnP harness installed? Maybe that's the culprit? I know it sounds dumb but every time you hit 180 miles the symptoms show.

I know you were joking about using a lighter to look inside, but maybe you dropped something that floats on the gas like a raft and above the fuel screen but when it gets low it gets sucked onto the fuel filer screen and causes the problems?
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Offline Tinsailor

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Re: WhadaYallmaikathis?
« Reply #42 on: April 25, 2017, 03:50:21 pm »
On mine, fuel level doesn't seem to matter. Ok, a long match instead of a grill lighter then.

Offline Gsled

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Re: WhadaYallmaikathis?
« Reply #43 on: April 25, 2017, 04:44:37 pm »
 Another free test- ride into the problem, pull to the side and open fuel filler cap. If it runs fine for a short while afterwards you may have a tank vent issue.

Offline MrBill

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Re: WhadaYallmaikathis?
« Reply #44 on: April 25, 2017, 09:00:51 pm »
Gsled  -  Yeah, I thought of the possibility of a tank vacuum problem as I had disassembled the gas cap to clean/lube the latch mechanism not too long before the symptoms started, so I thought I could have possibly re-assembled incorrectly or something. Anyway, I tried your suggestion, stopped after the symptoms showed up and opened the cap a little and started to ride like that. The problem was worse if anything.

Matt - I didn't even think of the fluid head pressure against a partially clogged filter, that would fit the symptoms I'm experiencing. I guess what was throwing me was that for at least 3 tankfuls the problem showed up within a mile or so of 180 on the odometer, I could watch the odometer, think "here it comes" and there it would be! Just like it was programmed that way. I appreciate the input, I'm gonna give the filter changeout a try.

Sorry if I ended up hijacking this thread, the symptoms for Tinsailors problem and mine seemed very similar at the beginning but probably are different issues altogether.

I've been lurking this forum for a couple of years and am really impressed with the collective knowledge and willingness to share!

Cheers!
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Offline Tinsailor

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Re: WhadaYallmaikathis?
« Reply #45 on: April 26, 2017, 02:34:41 pm »
Cleaned up all the wiring around the battery which wasn't in bad shape so need to find the other end of the engine ground to check it. I'm thinking more now the TPS. I filled it up this morning and still have the problem. I'm still under warranty so this may go to the shop. Also, its dry today so that's no longer an issue.
« Last Edit: April 26, 2017, 02:39:39 pm by Tinsailor »

Offline Steve in Sunny Fla

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Re: WhadaYallmaikathis?
« Reply #46 on: April 26, 2017, 03:06:29 pm »
Cleaned up all the wiring around the battery which wasn't in bad shape so need to find the other end of the engine ground to check it. I'm thinking more now the TPS. I filled it up this morning and still have the problem. I'm still under warranty so this may go to the shop. Also, its dry today so that's no longer an issue.

Still not wanting to go past 1/4 throttle? feels like it's running out of fuel? Steve
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Offline Tinsailor

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Re: WhadaYallmaikathis?
« Reply #47 on: April 26, 2017, 03:20:43 pm »
Exactly. Starts and cruises fine but no life after about 4800-5000 RPM And it'll surge when the throttle returns to that position.

Offline Steve in Sunny Fla

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Re: WhadaYallmaikathis?
« Reply #48 on: April 26, 2017, 03:27:13 pm »
Exactly. Starts and cruises fine but no life after about 4800-5000 RPM And it'll surge when the throttle returns to that position.

OK, is it rpm sensitive, or throttle sensitive? in other words, if you get to 5k in any gear does it do this, or maybe is it when you get to say a particular throttle position? if you are at 5k and it starts acting up, and you back off the throttle does it get better only after the rpms drop below 5 k, or is it immediately better?

  Here's something that was viral around here for a awhile. the concours TPS calibration. Not supposed to work, as there is no calibration needed, but I think the TPS isn't seeing base idle. Not saying this is your issue... or not.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6tdkwHXydy4


Steve

 
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Offline Tinsailor

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Re: WhadaYallmaikathis?
« Reply #49 on: April 26, 2017, 03:41:36 pm »
I'd say throttle sensitive because I was looking at that on the way back from cliffs to make a mental note on it. The rpm does vary but it's around 5k in general but not exacy