Author Topic: You need to read this !  (Read 3560 times)

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Offline connie_rider

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Re: You need to read this !
« Reply #25 on: September 28, 2017, 09:16:46 pm »
If I ever get thru polishing brass on this car, I'll be doing mine!   :-[

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« Last Edit: September 30, 2017, 02:54:52 pm by connie_rider »
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Offline rrsperry

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Re: You need to read this !
« Reply #26 on: September 29, 2017, 11:29:08 pm »
This has been bothering me, especially on slow corners and parking lot type stuff. I'll get on it tomorrow. Steve does the evo flash affect this at all?

Offline Rico

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Re: You need to read this !
« Reply #27 on: September 29, 2017, 11:59:08 pm »
Tried it and seems to have gotten rid of 90% of the problem, but I only rode around my neighborhood. I'll do a little longer ride Sunday.
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Offline JimBob

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Re: You need to read this !
« Reply #28 on: September 30, 2017, 04:15:31 pm »
Steve, I thought with "modern" digital EFI systems that (of necessity) recalibration of a TPS was done on every powerup - at least a zero-point reset (system reads TPS, and whatever position it's currently at becomes the zero point).


I put quotes on modern because I cut my teeth on Bosch *analog* EFI back in the 80's. Talk about a fun system to tinker with!.


Does that exist on the C14, and how does that "recalibration" compare to a full calibration with KDS?


Offline Steve in Sunny Fla

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Re: You need to read this !
« Reply #29 on: September 30, 2017, 06:07:32 pm »
Steve, I thought with "modern" digital EFI systems that (of necessity) recalibration of a TPS was done on every powerup - at least a zero-point reset (system reads TPS, and whatever position it's currently at becomes the zero point).


I put quotes on modern because I cut my teeth on Bosch *analog* EFI back in the 80's. Talk about a fun system to tinker with!.


Does that exist on the C14, and how does that "recalibration" compare to a full calibration with KDS?

Probably applicable on fly by wire, but I doubt it on this system. The factory calibrates the TPS on the throttle body and it's held by tamper proof screws. I have recalled a sensor using my kds system a couple years ago because of a different issue, so I know it can be done. Interesingly if a sensor goes bad it's not sold separately, you have to buy an entire injection rack. Steve
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Offline PeteTN_zgtr

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Re: You need to read this !
« Reply #30 on: September 30, 2017, 06:25:23 pm »
Tried it with no change. Still have the strong on-off binary throttle response. I had the cables adjusted to the point where the tube gets hard to turn.

I wonder if having a throttle tamer hampers doing this?  I'm thinking this because: 1) when adjusting the close-cable it never seems to bring the throttle to a particular closed position. The throttle grip just got harder to turn as I tightened the closing cable. Having the open cable side very loose and tightening the close side all the way still results in a throttle grip with play. And 2) with the close side cable loose or tight, tightening the open cable did a similar thing. Throttle got hard to turn, idle never increased no matter how much I adjusted the open cable tighter/longer. An analogy is that I got the impression I'm just adjusting two cables pulling on a pulley that's free to spin. Both cables get tight, pulley (throttle) gets hard to turn but no change down at the throttle shaft; spring on throttle shaft just keeps the shaft all the way against the "closed" stop.  Anyone else with a throttle tamer try it yet?  I'm guessing the stock throttle tube has a "closed stop" (stops rotation) and the tamer doesn't. I believe a closing stop is necessary to this working. That's my guess at this point.

Offline gpd323

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Re: You need to read this !
« Reply #31 on: September 30, 2017, 08:27:53 pm »
I have the TT also, I just tightened the open throttle cable tight plus one turn. The closed cable is a bit loose like OEM.
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Offline Steve in Sunny Fla

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Re: You need to read this !
« Reply #32 on: September 30, 2017, 08:35:18 pm »
Tried it with no change. Still have the strong on-off binary throttle response. I had the cables adjusted to the point where the tube gets hard to turn.

I wonder if having a throttle tamer hampers doing this?  I'm thinking this because: 1) when adjusting the close-cable it never seems to bring the throttle to a particular closed position. The throttle grip just got harder to turn as I tightened the closing cable. Having the open cable side very loose and tightening the close side all the way still results in a throttle grip with play. And 2) with the close side cable loose or tight, tightening the open cable did a similar thing. Throttle got hard to turn, idle never increased no matter how much I adjusted the open cable tighter/longer. An analogy is that I got the impression I'm just adjusting two cables pulling on a pulley that's free to spin. Both cables get tight, pulley (throttle) gets hard to turn but no change down at the throttle shaft; spring on throttle shaft just keeps the shaft all the way against the "closed" stop.  Anyone else with a throttle tamer try it yet?  I'm guessing the stock throttle tube has a "closed stop" (stops rotation) and the tamer doesn't. I believe a closing stop is necessary to this working. That's my guess at this point.

Is your ecu still stock? Steve
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Offline strum

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Re: You need to read this !
« Reply #33 on: September 30, 2017, 09:26:48 pm »
The TT does have a positive stop and I can raise my idle by turning the pull adjuster. 
 Try getting plenty of slack in the push/close cable and then adjusting the pull side until the idle starts to raise then back off just enough that you dont get any idle change by turning the handlebars . Make sure the bike is warmed up well first.
  One this subject i remember when bikes only had one cable.
  The push or close cable was added as a safety so that if the spring broke or came off you could close the throttle .
   A lot of guys would run with out it. So unless something is different on the modern throttle mechanics I see no benefit to not having slack in that one.
   I think the pull one is what Steve is talking about mostly. If In wrong here Steve please chime in . I dont need to confuse anything here.
 
 
 
 
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Offline Deepsea

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Re: You need to read this !
« Reply #34 on: September 30, 2017, 11:59:54 pm »
I also have the TT and have been able to adjust the cables as discussed without problem.


Back in the days of only one cable the return spring was Strong. We used to put in a device called "Twist Assist" It was a spring that went inside the handle bar and had a bolt that extended through the grip. You could preload it to counter the return spring. Wish they were still available.
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Offline Steve in Sunny Fla

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Re: You need to read this !
« Reply #35 on: October 01, 2017, 12:36:56 am »
I also have the TT and have been able to adjust the cables as discussed without problem.


Back in the days of only one cable the return spring was Strong. We used to put in a device called "Twist Assist" It was a spring that went inside the handle bar and had a bolt that extended through the grip. You could preload it to counter the return spring. Wish they were still available.

  when I was in my 20's I build a suzuki gs1000 into an 1176... megacycle cams, kerker header, port / polish / big valves and springs, and 36mm cv carbs (I've always liked cv's) but the carbs only had one cable. One day this teenage kid was out in front of my house popping wheelies on a clapped out dirt bike. I thought "I'll show him how to do a wheelie" so I pulled my bike out of the shop, rode into the street, and started into a full lock turn at idle, just trying to get the bike warmed up. Well I guess the throttle cable hung on something, and the bike went to about 10,000 rpm in a split second, at full lock. It spun all the way around the front end and SLAMMED me to the ground. Took a big chunk out of my elbow... a week before bow season. I took alot of flack from that about the guys I hunted with not to be a girl about it. Right, easy for you to say  ::) .  I left on my first trip when I could pull my bow exactly 1 time. Still have the scar on my elbow from that one... and I never have another bike with just one cable - ever  :-[  Steve
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Offline PeteTN_zgtr

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Re: You need to read this !
« Reply #36 on: October 01, 2017, 12:43:25 am »
OK, thanks for the replies. Maybe I'm getting the push/close cable too tight although I think I tried it loose but don't remember completely. I'll try it again.   

Steve AFAIK the ECU is stock.  It's an 08 I bought with 20K miles about 4 years ago.  Runs fine other than the typical on/off throttle. Average about 42mpg.

thanks again

Offline Steve in Sunny Fla

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Re: You need to read this !
« Reply #37 on: October 01, 2017, 12:56:38 am »


Steve AFAIK the ECU is stock. 


That explains some stuff. I don't think guys with stock ecu's will benefit as much. Steve
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Offline Deepsea

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Re: You need to read this !
« Reply #38 on: October 01, 2017, 03:14:23 am »
when I was in my 20's I build a suzuki gs1000 into an 1176...   :-[  Steve


Giving away you age group Steve :rotflmao: :rotflmao:
20's and a GS1000 hmm. In my 20's I bought a Spankin New Snorton Norton 750 Commando and immediately installed the Dunstall 810 kit with a Branch Head and magneto ignition. It had R/H shift.
 
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Offline PeteTN_zgtr

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Re: You need to read this !
« Reply #39 on: October 01, 2017, 04:09:36 pm »


Steve AFAIK the ECU is stock. 


That explains some stuff. I don't think guys with stock ecu's will benefit as much. Steve

That's probably true but we don't know yet how it will respond. My throttle is as I described. No return stop at the tube and there has to be one for the pull/open cable to start turning the throttle body shaft as it's adjusted tighter. Otherwise the cables are just moving the tube around on the bar. Nothing to do with the tamer either. It's not much different than the stock throttle tube other than radius. There's no such thing as adjusting my pull/open cable tighter and having the idle start to come up. The tube just turns and eventually pulls on the push/close cable as they get tight. I took it apart and looked.

I can probably add a stop with a set screw or something. Be interesting if anyone else's bike is the same.  This is an 08 ABS.

Also be interesting for others to state if their ECU is stock or not.

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Re: You need to read this !
« Reply #40 on: October 01, 2017, 04:14:32 pm »
I have an 08 with ABS.  No amount of cable adjustment would take the 'abrupt transitions' out my throttle control. It was very bad.
Once Steve flashed my ECU problem solved. Super smooth transitions.Make sure someone did not already remove the secondary throttle plates. That could also be your problem.
If they are missing you need to do two things:  Reinstall the secondaries and get that ECU reflashed by Steve
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Offline strum

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Re: You need to read this !
« Reply #41 on: October 01, 2017, 04:45:14 pm »


 It's not much different than the stock throttle tube other than radius. There's no such thing as adjusting my pull/open cable tighter and having the idle start to come up. The tube just turns and eventually pulls on the push/close cable as they get tight. I took it apart and looked.




somtingwong!!   
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Measurement is the first step that leads to control and eventually to improvement.
If you can't measure something, you can't understand it.
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If you can't control it, you can't improve it."

Offline PeteTN_zgtr

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Re: You need to read this !
« Reply #42 on: October 01, 2017, 07:23:34 pm »
I have an 08 with ABS.  No amount of cable adjustment would take the 'abrupt transitions' out my throttle control. It was very bad.
Once Steve flashed my ECU problem solved. Super smooth transitions.Make sure someone did not already remove the secondary throttle plates. That could also be your problem.
If they are missing you need to do two things:  Reinstall the secondaries and get that ECU reflashed by Steve

Mike, I'm not aware that a PO took out the secondaries but I'm not certain. Yes I need Steve's flash. I was planning on doing some other things first. I was hoping this trick of just opening the throttles a hair to get the TPS going would make an improvement.



somtingwong!!   

I don't know if anythings wrong. There's just no stop. There's a throttle tube with tube/cable cam part inside a semi-circular housing.  The close-cable pulling on the throttle body shaft is the 'close stop'.  If other's have a 'close stop' in the tube assembly  (cable cam hits some kind of boss inside the semi-circular housing)  then Kawi changed the housing part at some time.

Offline strum

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Re: You need to read this !
« Reply #43 on: October 01, 2017, 08:01:13 pm »
Maybe im missing something here but my TT hits a "stop" it cant go any further fully closed.
  If you unhook the cables there is a positive stop or a least mine has one. It wont just spin all the way around.
  It is possible that you installed the TT in a manner that the close cable has it off the stop and then you adjusted the open cable to that?
 If so then I can see the cables pulling on one another as you described?
 I think we got off subject here but I still say somtingwong man.
 If you pull it back apart and find this to be so start a new topic so we are not hijacking this one.
 
 
 
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Measurement is the first step that leads to control and eventually to improvement.
If you can't measure something, you can't understand it.
If you can't understand it, you can't control it.
If you can't control it, you can't improve it."

Offline PeteTN_zgtr

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Re: You need to read this !
« Reply #44 on: October 03, 2017, 11:49:25 pm »
Strum thanks for the suggestions.  I didn't take it apart again but there is no stop within the range of the cable adjustments. Something must be different.  Yeah I won't belabor this point on this thread anymore.

I would like to hear others experience with Steve's suggestion.

Steve not sure if you did this but I would be curious what your data-logger readings are after your cable adjustment.

thanks guys

Offline Steve in Sunny Fla

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Re: You need to read this !
« Reply #45 on: October 04, 2017, 12:38:18 am »


Steve not sure if you did this but I would be curious what your data-logger readings are after your cable adjustment.


 

I'll probably do that tomorrow - steve
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Offline Dirtwiz

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Re: You need to read this !
« Reply #46 on: October 04, 2017, 01:23:14 am »
I did the throttle cable adjustments yesterday and rode it 240 miles today. I have the EVO flash and was perfectly happy with the throttle response both off and on prior to the adjustment. It did have a fair amount of slop in the opening of the throttle ( maybe 1/4") but I was able to adjust that out of it with the adjustment process. I'm not sure if my brain was just compensating for the slack in the cable or not but it was not a problem for me....the new adjustment with no slack at all is also not really an improvement since it seemed perfectly smooth to me before and it still is. After my ride today I do prefer the feel of "no slack" if for no other reason than it takes less turning of the throttle for the same amount of fuel and its easier on the wrist. Either way your brain has to help your hand control your throttle with a fairly light touch in order to be smooth but with the flash it is kind of like cheating.
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Offline fordtruck

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Re: You need to read this !
« Reply #47 on: October 08, 2017, 01:58:53 am »
I did this to my 09 today.  I have the decel flash which helped a lot, but it still wasn't as smooth as I'd like.  My main problem was getting back on the throttle after slowing down.  It would hesitate and then jerk.  After adjusting the throttle cables this morning, I rode for about 100 miles.  It really does help.  Steve, thanks for taking the time to come up with this.
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Offline Old Man on a Connie

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Re: You need to read this !
« Reply #48 on: October 08, 2017, 02:50:20 am »
Just did 600 miles. Feels sweet. Thanks Again Steve! Now, about that right side hip pain after the 500 mile mark???????? :)) :)) :)) :))
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Re: You need to read this !
« Reply #49 on: October 08, 2017, 12:11:36 pm »
If I ever get thru polishing brass on this car, I'll be doing mine!   :-[

Ride safe, Ted

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I will be trying this as well, but Ted my curiosity is now killing me. Ted do you own a brass ara car, what is this car with all the brass you speak of????
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