Author Topic: You need to read this !  (Read 2488 times)

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Offline Steve in Sunny Fla

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You need to read this !
« on: September 25, 2017, 11:35:39 pm »
    I've been working on the question of driveline slack... why some folks report none and others are frought with it. To date there's been nothing concrete to point to, but I think I made a breakthrough today.

   I set up my datalogger and went riding today, specifically working on shifts and on/ off response. I have something i'm working on, so this was a good time to experiment. After the ride, I evaluated the running datalog at 1/10th speed, and found that coming from a closed throttle, I could see the rpms rise and intake vacuum drop, indicating an opening throttle, but there was zero movement registered from the tps.

  I've seen this before "back in the day" with toyota's. Basically the TPS is poorly adjusted, and doesn't respond for several degrees of throttle opening. This affects fueling, timing and secondary action... all the stuff that has to be spot on for best performance.

   Now the right answer for this is to recalibrate the TPS on the bike... but nobody is going to do that without the proper equipment (kds).

   If you think about it, throttle quality has long been connected to properly adjusted throttle cables. so I thought about for a bit, and decided to try REALLY tightening the pull cable. Not enough to bring the idle up, but close.

   I has a very small bit of play already. Less than you'ld want even on carbs. I adjusted that out completely, and then tightened the adjustment barrel one more complete turn.

   Wow, what a result that had. Even when I try to overthrottle I really can't. Just smooth shifts and smooth power. Understand my bike is already really smooth, so to have driveline lash issues I kind of have to jack around with the throttle to get it... but now I can't even do that.

  So if you've read this far, please go do the adjustment as I outlined above and report your findings. We may have something here.

 Steve

 

   
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Offline turbo-max

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Re: You need to read this !
« Reply #1 on: September 25, 2017, 11:54:43 pm »
i dont have the ecu in my bike right now...oh wait...i have a c-10!  :))
turbo lag is a courteous head start!    ~Jeff H
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Offline Old Man on a Connie

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Re: You need to read this !
« Reply #2 on: September 26, 2017, 12:25:19 am »
Have a weekender coming up. Noticed a lot on the last run up to Provo UT. Will do and report back.
"I don't always ride street bikes, but when I do, It's a Concours. A C14 '11 silver to be precise." OTP 2017 We gonna dance! Danke Schoen

Offline gpd323

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Re: You need to read this !
« Reply #3 on: September 26, 2017, 12:35:31 am »
Will do Steve.
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Offline Rico

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Re: You need to read this !
« Reply #4 on: September 26, 2017, 01:01:58 am »
Thanks Steve, will try this before the weekend!
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Offline LSGiant

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Re: You need to read this !
« Reply #5 on: September 26, 2017, 01:31:25 am »
Did this awhile back and have posted it for others that have complained of jerky throttle.
Thanks Steve sometimes it's the simple things
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Offline Steve in Sunny Fla

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Re: You need to read this !
« Reply #6 on: September 26, 2017, 01:47:12 am »
Did this awhile back and have posted it for others that have complained of jerky throttle.
Thanks Steve sometimes it's the simple things

did you just take out the slack or actually overtighten the barrel? I never saw that post, and the reason I made it's own thread was because I felt most wouldn't see my other post hidden in the other thread...like what apparently happened to yours. Steve
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Offline RoadKillHeaven

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Re: You need to read this !
« Reply #7 on: September 26, 2017, 02:55:41 am »
Steve, Suzuki SV and DL suffer from sloppy throttle cables. There are numbers of posts on StromTrooper forums regarding TPS throttle cables tumultuous marriage.
The first thing I did when I got C14, I removed all slack from both cables to the  that elusive astronomical twilight zone you're talking about. I haven't had complaints regarding driveline slack-slop since.
But some habitues of this forum seem to know everything, hence absence of my humble findings regarding the matter.  ;)
Cheers...
« Last Edit: September 26, 2017, 02:59:38 am by RoadKillHeaven »

Offline MAN OF BLUES

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Re: You need to read this !
« Reply #8 on: September 26, 2017, 04:47:41 am »
Hmmmm
Maybe that explains why I never complained about this issue, as 9 years ago, I removed all the slack, but still made sure I didn't get an accidental accell when turning the bars.... then I turned the idle knob up till it began to change rpm, and backed off a twitch or so...

I did find tho, prior to that, the dysfunctional lurch...and attributed it to cable "lag",
So in essence what you are saying is the TPS when sitting at idle, and barely turned when taking all slack out, places the TPS in a "usable range" to begin doing its job...? Correct?


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Offline Steve in Sunny Fla

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Re: You need to read this !
« Reply #9 on: September 26, 2017, 05:02:39 am »

So in essence what you are saying is the TPS when sitting at idle, and barely turned when taking all slack out, places the TPS in a "usable range" to begin doing its job...? Correct?

Basically, yes.

  BTW, we've known for some time about adjusting the throttle cables to get better throttle response. I think what's important here is that now we have the real actual cause of the "driveline lash" issue, that being the poorly adjusted TPS. This also explains why some bikes exhibit the lash whereas others do not.  Steve
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Offline MAN OF BLUES

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Re: You need to read this !
« Reply #10 on: September 26, 2017, 05:20:36 am »

So in essence what you are saying is the TPS when sitting at idle, and barely turned when taking all slack out, places the TPS in a "usable range" to begin doing its job...? Correct?

Basically, yes.

  BTW, we've known for some time about adjusting the throttle cables to get better throttle response. I think what's important here is that now we have the real actual cause of the "driveline lash" issue, that being the poorly adjusted TPS. This also explains why some bikes exhibit the lash whereas others do not.  Steve

Yeah, I had a feeling the TPS is kinda like a crusty antique volumn control on a tv set made in the 50's and doesn't like the "ends of the range" positions as much as the mid position contact area of rotation... I'm thinking I'll pull mine out and "violate" the books warnings by disassebling it, and looking closely at the primitive guts inside...

This is why I kinda say to people that want "throttle by wire" as a techno improvement, that it just places another point of failure in the loop, on top of a part that ain't runctioning as well as it could, or should, from the factory... and rendering service into a parts replacement pit instead of an adjustment thing...
You know what I'm talking about,.so I don't have to expound on that much... :rotflmao: :great:

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Offline COGnosticator

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Re: You need to read this !
« Reply #11 on: September 26, 2017, 08:31:33 am »
When I got my '13 in July i adjusted the throttle cable to where I had an RCH of movement, I will now cut that hair off   ;D and see how it feels

Thanks Steve for your continuing to try and make the C14 a shoodaben   :great:
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Offline JDSCO

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Re: You need to read this !
« Reply #12 on: September 26, 2017, 09:07:16 pm »
   REALLY tightening the pull cable. Not enough to bring the idle up, but close. [/b]

   I has a very small bit of play already. Less than you'ld want even on carbs. I adjusted that out completely, and then tightened the adjustment barrel one more complete turn.

   Wow, what a result that had. Even when I try to overthrottle I really can't. Just smooth shifts and smooth power. Understand my bike is already really smooth, so to have driveline lash issues I kind of have to jack around with the throttle to get it... but now I can't even do that.

  So if you've read this far, please go do the adjustment as I outlined above and report your findings. We may have something here.

 Steve

I tried the accell cable, remove slack plus one turn as recommended but I was interested where the decel cable slack played into this.

Referencing the FSM for throttle freeplay, I started with the decel cable and removed slack plus 1 turn to see some effect.
I then adjusted the accel cable to remove slack plus 1 turn to see some effect.
Not sure where the limit is, I screwed out the decel cable to the point that the throttle was stiff. Screwed decel back in until throttle was free, again.
Repeated same for accel cable, to the point throttle was stiff (wouldn't spring return), screwed accel back in until throttle was free again.

There is no slack. Period.

Both accel and decel cables are out 6mm of exposed thread. About >2 full turns from oem adjustment. 8000miles since new.

The end result was noticeable when I test rode up and down a mountain pass for 34 miles. Smooth accel shifting and smooth and improved down-shifting. Smooth down shifting was observed on this 6-7% grade descent with no driveline clunk. Pretty smooth driveline.

My '08 C14 was a smoother running bike than my '16. I've noticed the driveline "clunk" on the '16 since new. It was not constant but I noticed it several times over 8000 miles.

Didn't I read in the "Driveline Lash" thread that I can recalibrate the throttle/tps by key-on, twist throttle open and close and key_off?
I completed this and had no better result.

Does the TPS need a simple recalibration (what would that be) after the cable tensioning?
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Offline RoadKillHeaven

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Re: You need to read this !
« Reply #13 on: September 26, 2017, 09:18:10 pm »
TPS  doesn't require calibration. It is a rheostat it has to be properly adjusted to ZERO position in relation with throttle shaft.
Manufacturers have been known to "average" TPS installation. I haven't gotten into TPS adjustment, but Suzuki V twins (1 litre engines) greatly benefit from adjusting TPS.
Removing slack from deccel cable makes difference.

Cheers...

Offline Steve in Sunny Fla

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Re: You need to read this !
« Reply #14 on: September 26, 2017, 10:44:58 pm »
OMG, if I hear about that BS throttle calibration again I'm going to find the guy who started it and punch him in the head for stating a completely false service calibration.

   PLEASE - THERE IS NO ABILITY TO DO A THROTTLE CALIBRATION WITHOUT A KDS .

                                  IT'S FAKE NEWS !

Steve
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Offline strum

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Re: You need to read this !
« Reply #15 on: September 26, 2017, 10:54:34 pm »


 
                                  IT'S FAKE NEWS !

Steve


 I think the Russians started it :-X
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Offline RoadKillHeaven

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Re: You need to read this !
« Reply #16 on: September 27, 2017, 12:19:00 am »


 
                                  IT'S FAKE NEWS !

Steve


 I think the Russians started it :-X
But stupid Americans elected to believe in it.  :-X :-X :-X

Offline gPink

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Re: You need to read this !
« Reply #17 on: September 27, 2017, 12:33:44 am »


 
                                  IT'S FAKE NEWS !

Steve


 I think the Russians started it :-X
But stupid Americans elected to believe in it.  :-X :-X :-X
just won't quit will you

Offline RoadKillHeaven

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Re: You need to read this !
« Reply #18 on: September 27, 2017, 12:39:10 am »


 
                                  IT'S FAKE NEWS !

Steve


 I think the Russians started it :-X
But stupid Americans elected to believe in it.  :-X :-X :-X
But...I know, truth hurts...
just won't quit will you
I quit when I die... :-X :-X :-X

Offline gPink

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Re: You need to read this !
« Reply #19 on: September 27, 2017, 12:44:22 am »
troll

Offline Old Man on a Connie

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Re: You need to read this !
« Reply #20 on: September 27, 2017, 01:09:33 am »
Please don't interrupt a possible useful thread with political BS  :-X Self moderate, self control. Please.
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Offline strum

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Re: You need to read this !
« Reply #21 on: September 27, 2017, 06:07:48 pm »
Please don't interrupt a possible useful thread with political BS  :-X Self moderate, self control. Please.

   Sorry guys this was a just a joke . didnt mean for it to go where it did. Ill stay on topic .
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Offline gpd323

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Re: You need to read this !
« Reply #22 on: September 27, 2017, 09:31:45 pm »
CURED!!!!

90% of my drive-line lash (slop) has been cured doing this to the throttle cable. I had posted on another thread I started about this very issue that made it almost impossible to shift up/down/low rpms/high rpms and keep it smooth. Now its so nice.

I'll PM you Steve in a bit.
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Offline Jerdurr

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Re: You need to read this !
« Reply #23 on: September 28, 2017, 01:52:33 pm »
Steve, I've never fiddled with the throttle cable... However, I love learning new DIY stuff! How do I do the procedure you mention here? Also, I don't quite understand what you guys mean when you say "+ one turn"... ? Would you mind clarifying? Really appreciate your help and efforts in making C14 a better bike. Will probably be getting a Steve's EVO flash this winter :)
Best,

JD

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Offline Deepsea

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Re: You need to read this !
« Reply #24 on: September 28, 2017, 07:19:36 pm »
Loosen the two lock nuts on the throttle adjusters. Gently tighten the "Close" cable until there is no slack but not so tight as to lower the rpm. Tighten that lock nut with two wrenches. Next gently tighten the "Open" cable until there is no slack then tighten 1 more full turn of the adjusting barrel. If the rpm goes up back off just enough to not raise the rpm but no more. There should now be no play in the throttle but it MUST still return to idle when you let go on it's own spring power. If not then start over, you'll get there eventually.


Steve, if I botched this jump in and slap my wrist. :beerchug:
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