Author Topic: Your out in the middle of no where and your battery dies... What do you do?  (Read 14039 times)

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Offline gggGary

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"It just rarely works on a dead battery.  The problem is that alternators, which are almost universal these days, have no permanent magnets in them"

I just downloaded the factory service manual and looked, the connie has a PMA (permanent magnet alternator)  So there is a rather good chance it will boot strap and charge even with no battery voltage.  (never attempt this with NO battery in the bike) 
Since powerful rare earth magnets have become affordable, PMAs are becoming common.
new to me 08 C14 71K miles, Baraboo, WI

Offline Old Man on a Connie

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I also carry this everywhere I go. http://shop.antigravitybatteries.com/micro-start-xp-1/
Have jumped my KLR several times, charged my Iphone and Ipad, sena, laptop and my F250 diesel. Haven't had to use it on the C14 yet.
"I don't always ride street bikes, but when I do, It's a Concours. A C14 '11 silver to be precise." OTP 2017 Traveler. It was a Blast Baby. Still in it to Win it.

Offline gPink

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I also carry this everywhere I go. http://shop.antigravitybatteries.com/micro-start-xp-1/
Have jumped my KLR several times, charged my Iphone and Ipad, sena, laptop and my F250 diesel. Haven't had to use it on the C14 yet.

How long will it hold a charge in storage?

Offline Old Man on a Connie

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I also carry this everywhere I go. http://shop.antigravitybatteries.com/micro-start-xp-1/
Have jumped my KLR several times, charged my Iphone and Ipad, sena, laptop and my F250 diesel. Haven't had to use it on the C14 yet.

How long will it hold a charge in storage?
Last I charged it was before heading out to JC for the nationals. Still full. I've used it to fully charge my cell phone 4 times w/o recharge and it was still over 1/2 capacity. Nice piece of kit. Will charge anything that uses a usb plug and has adaptors for many others. Was pretty unbelievable when it started my cold diesel that carries 2 big batteries. When troubleshooting a battery issue on my KLR jumped it 4 straight times on 1 charge.
"I don't always ride street bikes, but when I do, It's a Concours. A C14 '11 silver to be precise." OTP 2017 Traveler. It was a Blast Baby. Still in it to Win it.

Offline gPink

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Thanks

Offline jwh20

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"It just rarely works on a dead battery.  The problem is that alternators, which are almost universal these days, have no permanent magnets in them"

I just downloaded the factory service manual and looked, the connie has a PMA (permanent magnet alternator)  So there is a rather good chance it will boot strap and charge even with no battery voltage.  (never attempt this with NO battery in the bike) 
Since powerful rare earth magnets have become affordable, PMAs are becoming common.

Hey, good catch.  I'd have bet $$ that it was the other kind.  Anyway, I know you can bump start going about 30 mph when you accidentally hit the kill switch and then quickly flip it back on.  But that's a hot engine with a fully charged battery and plenty of speed.

I'd try it going down my driveway which is sloped enough to get me up to about 10 mph but it's gravel and I don't want slip the rear wheel and crash in the name of science.   :)
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Offline gggGary

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I'd try it going down my driveway which is sloped enough to get me up to about 10 mph but it's gravel and I don't want slip the rear wheel and crash in the name of science.   :)

Exactly what I thought about THAT experiment.   ;D

Adding a fused SAE connector to the battery right now.  For a tender and heated clothes.   :great:

new to me 08 C14 71K miles, Baraboo, WI

Offline Steve

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Thanks for all the information. The reason I killed my battery is because I used the kill switch, that is something that I never do but because I ran a scavenger hunt last weekend and was on and off the bike a lot I got into the habit of using the kill switch for quick stops. Lesson learned.

I put the bike on the battery tender Saturday night and all day Sunday. This morning when I turned the bike on the battery indicator said 12.1v which is low compared to what it usually reads. Once started it slowly climbed back to the 14.4 that it typically reads at right away. I will be replacing the battery in spring just for the fact that I don't know how old it is.

I now have a set of jumpers that connect to my tender that I will carry with me forever and hopefully never need.

Offline gggGary

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No battery bump start;

I thought about this and without any battery you aren't turning on the ignition anyways, unless maybe if you have a kpass bpass switch, is even that enough to get it to ignition on sans 12volts??
new to me 08 C14 71K miles, Baraboo, WI

Offline surfdog

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Offline jathkajoe

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Bump starting an inline Four:  I put the bike in second gear, back it up to compression (like we did with the old big bore singles), pull in the clutch and get it moving forward by manpower or gravity (gravity preferred, it really doesn't take much slope).  When it feels like it's hit the max velocity for the strength of legs or pull of gravity I stand on the pegs and simultaneously dump the clutch while dropping my weight on the seat.  Make sure the ignition switch is on, kill switch is off, and if the engine needs it the choke/enrichener is in the proper position.

If the battery is really low disconnect the headlight before you start the bump start process (not necessary on the c10 but is on some bikes).

When the dead beast fires pull in the clutch, put the gear shift in neutral, and focus on keeping it running while letting it coast to a stop.

The last bike I bump started was a 1982 Suzuki GS1100G, fully loaded with camp gear, full fuel, and a dead starter motor in the gravel parking at Cape Flattery.  I bump started that bike the rest of the trip, sometimes after refueling at a station just rocking it off the centerstand and pushing forward with my feet gave enough forward momentum to coast to the station's driveway and that little bit of slope provided the speed to start the engine.  Of course, that bike had a strong battery, just a dead starter motor.

I've known of guys who used battery packs for a cordless tool to start their work pickup truck with a dead battery.  I don't know of many who routinely carry such a battery on their motorcycle.  Although I do see that Milwaukee tools is now selling a winter jacket that is heated from one of their M12 batteries., Fastenal's latest sale flyer has them listed.

JathkaJoe

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Offline jdegraff

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I had a battery "explode" on me once.. Not a great sound, feeling, sensation. I was a kid and hooked the battery up wrong on my car and then hooked jumper cables to it. I then stuck my head under the hood because I could hear a strange noise "sizzling" and it went off about the time I got my head in. No lasting injuries.. Just stupid kid stuff

I have jumped bikes over the years with no problems. I leave the car turned off, hook up the cables and go.

Offline CW

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I had a battery "explode" on me once.. Not a great sound, feeling, sensation. I was a kid and hooked the battery up wrong on my car and then hooked jumper cables to it. I then stuck my head under the hood because I could hear a strange noise "sizzling" and it went off about the time I got my head in. No lasting injuries.. Just stupid kid stuff

I have jumped bikes over the years with no problems. I leave the car turned off, hook up the cables and go.

I saw a battery explode once, in a convenient store lot. Entire top of battery sheared off, flew into air, and landed on top of the gas pump canopy. Pretty impressive! Dudes doing the jumper were unhurt, luckily.

And what is this "kill switch" everyone talks about?   ;-)

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Offline Canadian Steve

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I was very near a battery that "blew up so to speak" but in reality it split the housing and sprayed acid all over the underside of the hood and in my Uncles face.
He was putting the cables on to jump start a very low battery, and it was not a cross connection.
I was luckily able to quickly get him some water to rinse his face as well as painted surfaces.
(This was about 25yrs ago now) and have never seen or heard of it happening since to anyone I know, and many are car guys/ mechanics.
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Offline AmphibSailor

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AAA with "RV" (recreational vehicle) endorsement. 
They'll start it, or tow it home if they can't.

I ride often in remote areas, so I have their "premier RV" coverage
which includes 200 miles towing up to 3X per year as part of the membership.

 :great: Worked for me....
09 Concours aka 'The Cruncher:' Corbin Canyon Dual Sport (Laam for longer trips, Laam modded Corbin Modular with Smuggler for mid-length trips), Top Blocks, Penske 8983, Traxxion AK20s, Helibars Horizon ST bars w/Galfer SS +6 cables, MRA Vario Touring Windscreen/Madstad brackets (Copper Dawg sport screen for summer), Area P full system, throttle tamer, Steve's Mountain Runner Flash.  

Offline Fred_Wa2gzw

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There is a simple circuit consisting of a diode(1n4001) and a Sonalert or buzzer.  The Sonalert or buzzer would sound if the headlights were on and the fuel pump was not running.

The posting appeared back around 2009, it may be on Fred Harmons page or maybe in one of the old newsletters.

Fred

Found it!!!

http://cog-online.org/clubportal/clubstatic.cfm?clubID=1328&pubmenuoptID=29563
« Last Edit: October 25, 2014, 10:29:54 pm by Fred_Wa2gzw »

Offline Phil

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I have only had to use this once but "IT WORKS" as advertised! For $30 will b hard to beat! Just plug into your accessory plug and wait 5min. I accidentally left my key on while visiting the local dealer. Rather than embarrass myself and ask service for help I just plugged it in. Waited about 5min and cranked right up!

http://www.porta-jump.com/

Offline SubCool

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I've been considering this kind of setup for my long distance trips:

http://www.amazon.com/Lil-Lightning-Inc-Lithium-Start/dp/B00M88F2QY/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1413135828&sr=8-1&keywords=Rescue+Pak

Problem is I really just don't know if it will work or not. No reviews. Similar setups are Mixed Reviews.

Close to home just call a tow truck...LOL...


I left my key on at a mcdonalds in the middle of Nebraska coming home from Sturgis. Luckily it was next door to a Yamaha dealer, he walked over with one of those micro li ion jump kits and had me going in no time. Then a guy in a car said he needed a jump also and it got him going also. I was AMAZED! I don't know what brand it was but the technology works.

Offline mattchewn

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In a previous life I drove a tow truck for several years. I have used all types of portable jumper boxes as well as cables and such. They all work great with one small caveat. You have to keep them charged!  I have had many people/customers whom I "rescued" from a dead battery ask me where to get one thinking they could just drop it in the trunk and forget about it. Once they knew it had to be attended to on a pretty regular basis they were no longer interested in spending the money on it. Portable batteries are wonderful things as long as they are charged! I know many people on here are super-incredibly-awesome about their maintenance and memory to keep after these types of things but many more are not, i'm sure, (me being one of the latter).
Matt
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Offline JimBob

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Quote
They should have a safety disconnect like most cars do that leaves enough power in the battery to start the bike

No car that I know of comes with such a feature - certainly not "most" cars by any measure. Cars have standard/generic charging and start systems that really haven't changed much in the last 30 years (not since the bulk of cars converted from points to electronic ignition starting in the 70's, and the switch from generators to alternators starting in the 60's). With the addition of automatic headlights and interior lights in the 90's, the primary culprit for dead batteries kinda went away. (Prior to this the interior light would stay on if the door was left open...all night.)

What you may see is a bit of recovery in the battery if the offending drain is removed. Since car batteries produce current through a chemical reaction, when you remove the offending load that reaction will continue to move electrons into the negative plates, producing the recovery effect (up to the point the acid reaches equilibrium, which isn't long after a battery is drained...).


The only thing I have seen is a battery (several years ago) with a switch on it enabling you to access a "reserve" if it was dead. Not sure how it was configured internally to accomplish this (perhaps it's more of a dual battery internally) (anyone have a link to the engineering?).

Anyway, as has already been stated - push/bump starting a fuel injected engine with no juice is pretty much not gonna happen. Without enough voltage (and amperage) the ignition won't turn on, fuel injectors/computer won't run, fuel pump won't run.

It's quite possible that even with a permanent-magnet generator these things won't turn on, because the circuit for engaging the generator may be relay controlled - requiring 12v to engage the generator (connect it's output to the system)! I haven't looked at the C14 diagram for the charging system, but I've seen this type of setup elsewhere.

That portable battery looks pretty slick - anyone know if it's Lithium-Ion? Or LiPo?

Offline BanditDude

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So I was lucky enough to be visiting a friend today on a day trip ride when I decided to forget to turn off the key and leave the lights on for a couple of hours. I got back to the bike and was getting ready to leave when I saw the key was already in the on position. Confused I turned the key to the off position and found that the battery was completely flat and I wouldn't be able to get it back to the on position without power to the battery.

We easily jumped the bike and I was off. But now I have questions on this situation.

If I wouldn't have turned it off could I have pop started it? I am assuming not.

Is there an easier way to jump these bikes besides getting at the battery?

I don't think I will ever leave the house without a set of jumper cables now, if I wouldn't have been at his house I could have been stranded for a long time.
I am going to replace the battery in the spring since I have no idea how old it is anyways and draining them to nothing is usually never good for them.

They should have a safety disconnect like most cars do that leaves enough power in the battery to start the bike.

Oddly enough, I had the exact same thing happen at a festival a few weeks ago.  I also turned off the key upon returning, and immediately realized what I had done.  I called someone to bring jumper cables and repeatedly tried turning on the switch.  After about 15 minutes, I believe that my battery had recovered just enough to let me turn the key.  Nothing else worked.  No blinking LED, dash display or lights.

I happened to be parked on a pretty significant hill, but had less than a block before running out of road.  Oddly enough, it took very little effort to generate enough voltage to fire up the computer and start the bike (probably 50 ft at a jogging pace).  However, it took 3-4 minutes of higher revs before it would run at idle.  I had to do another quick bump start when it died the first time.  Both starts were done within half a block.

This bike really didn't take much more effort to bump start than others that I've owned.  The kicker is the KIPASS system.  It would've been nice to have a reserve capacity to at least power the lock mechanism.

Offline jonathan

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They should have a safety disconnect like most cars do that leaves enough power in the battery to start the bike.



As far as I know most cars don't have this feature, but you can add it:

http://www.prioritystart.com/
Calgary, Alberta

Offline gggGary

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So with an accessory plug installed nearly any voltage enough to get the switch turned on and it "should" push start, good to know. 
Just keep in mind the trade off of waiting for a real jump/battery charge vs the damage from a low speed tip attempting a roll start.....

So to review; how do I wire the bike to bypass the kfob?
new to me 08 C14 71K miles, Baraboo, WI

Offline JimBob

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I used to bump-start my KW LTD 440, but would hesitate with the C10. Bad enough to drop her standing still - I'm not sure how well the tipovers will handle a rolling drop!

No maybe with a hill so I can start out sitting on it...

Offline Rob

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Re: Your out in the middle of no where and your battery dies... What do you do?
« Reply #49 on: November 23, 2014, 12:24:12 am »

I agree with everything you say here except the bold portion. Has this ever happened? I ask this because I worked for AAA back in the late 60s, early 70s and our shop (and me personally) jump started thousands of cars and charged thousands of batteries in our shop. Never had an issue with this and nobody else in the biz did either. The only exploding battery we experienced was because of a cross connection.

The amount of hydrogen in a battery cavity is very small and is not likely to be mixed with the proper oxygen ratio to produce anything more than a light "pop" like in science class.

I would like to know if anyone has actually induced a hydrogen sourced "explosion" in any lead/acid vehicle battery.

Dan

Yes, I had a battery explode. It was a brand new lead acid battery installed in a ten year old Ford pickup. Started the truck and there was a very loud bang. Opened the hood and found the top of the battery case had a couple of pieces missing and acid splashed everywhere. The battery still worked.

The battery manufacturer replaced the battery. They felt it must have had a defect that didn't properly vent the hydrogen. Not sure where the ignition source was; the truck ran fine.

If that explosion had happened while connecting jumper cables there was definitely potential for injury from the plastic casing and acid.
« Last Edit: November 23, 2014, 12:34:38 am by Rob »