Author Topic: ZX-14 or ZX-14R Exhaust for a C-14?  (Read 10738 times)

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Offline Gypsy JR

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Re: ZX-14 or ZX-14R Exhaust for a C-14?
« Reply #25 on: December 15, 2016, 09:18:52 pm »
Sort of off the subject, but I come in contact with a lot of Harley-Davidson bikes with straight pipes. Like at H.O.G. meetings, and at dealerships I visit in my travels.

I never argue with them about the value of a loud bike (there isn't one, its just noise, by the time they hear you its too late).

But I always point out that by reducing exhaust back pressure they are seriously hindering the engine's ability to make torque and horsepower. That only by increasing the flow of the intake ports, changing the cam timing, and altering the A/F ration will the open exhaust produce a positive result.

At which point you'd have a race engine, basically, with all the attendant problems.

They just shut up at that point.
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Offline gPink

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Re: ZX-14 or ZX-14R Exhaust for a C-14?
« Reply #26 on: December 15, 2016, 09:46:46 pm »
Is there no one out there that installed the ZX pipes on their Connie?

How about Full Area P guys?
C'mon, add to the discussion or kick holes in my idea.

Trying to learn and get others opinions..

Ride safe, Ted

Ted , I put a zx header and muzzy cf duals on my '08 back in '10. What do you want to know and what is your end goal?

Offline cuda

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Re: ZX-14 or ZX-14R Exhaust for a C-14?
« Reply #27 on: December 15, 2016, 10:13:44 pm »
Ted , I put a zx header and muzzy cf duals on my '08 back in '10. What do you want to know and what is your end goal?
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Offline connie_rider

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Re: ZX-14 or ZX-14R Exhaust for a C-14?
« Reply #28 on: December 16, 2016, 12:38:02 am »
Ahh, victims for me to question!!

JR, I agree with you to a point.
Your correct, an open exhaust can kill the torque.
I intend to keep 1 (Area P) muffler with the same ID as a ZG, to keep back pressure and reduce noise.

In properly designed header the exhaust flow is more efficient {in a specific RPM range}.
If this Header will work in the correct range,,, it will increase the flow of the intake ports, and alter the A/F ration {because of improved scavenging and proper control of the exhaust pulses}.
I'm hoping someone has information of past installs...

When you installed headers on your previous bikes, what was the result?

GPink/Cuda, what was the benefit or downfall of your ZX header installations?
  Did you do anything else to control AF ratio etc?
  What was the size of the Mid pipes?
  Did you remove a Catalytic Converter?
  Did you remove the flies?

End Goal. is EZ,,
   I want Power!! Lots and lots of POWER!!     Arr, arr, arr,,,,,,,,,  >:D
     But I want it to be controllable, and have good low/mid torque...
       ie: better than stock and a Full Area P.. But cheap!!
     And, I want to keep the idea's coming.
            Bekuz,,, I just like to discuss things...

Cuda, I already have hair on the palms of my hands.
            I want to grow some on top of my err slightly balding head..   :rotflmao:

Ride safe, Ted
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Offline gPink

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Re: ZX-14 or ZX-14R Exhaust for a C-14?
« Reply #29 on: December 16, 2016, 10:01:03 am »
Ted, 2007 zx14 headers (no cats) PC5 w/Autotune. Secondaries removed. Throttle cables adjusted and Throttle tamer installed. No downside. Extremely smooth. Never dyno'ed. At the time this was the only means to an end and I really like the dual setup. I'll see about OD pipe measurements this weekend.

Offline connie_rider

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Re: ZX-14 or ZX-14R Exhaust for a C-14?
« Reply #30 on: December 16, 2016, 12:50:44 pm »
Good info. Yes, please confirm the dimensions I have.
Extremely smooth and more powerful?
Did you happen to ride it without autotune and flies removed?

NOTE: Leaving in a few minutes to go hunting.
          Will be back next week.

Ride safe, Ted
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Offline connie_rider

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Re: ZX-14 or ZX-14R Exhaust for a C-14?
« Reply #31 on: December 20, 2016, 08:46:05 pm »
Back from my hunt.
See no replies.

I was selected to test Steve's new Flash, so this project is on hold for a time.

All I have is an idea and a ZX-14R header. 
Would still like to hear from folks that have installed ZX-14 or Zx-14R headers.

Is this a waste of time?

Ride safe, Ted
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Offline Throttle 8

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Re: ZX-14R Exhaust for a C-14?
« Reply #32 on: December 20, 2016, 09:25:18 pm »
Patrick, when looking on the dyno, the WOT #'s show the area p outpowering stock even by 4000 rpm. The soft feeling comes during light / part throttle, though I got most if not all of that back with tuning. the issues is the big exhaust doesn't have any back pressure, and in fact is evacuating the cylinder of some of it's fresh charge during light throttle operation. Such is the nature of "big" when it comes to engine tuning. Cams, overlap, intake, throttle bodies, Ex pipes... big is the bane of low rpm torque. the only "big" that helps low rpm torque is compression, and there's a very finite amount of that to be used before the pistons break. Steve


I see a SISF full Area P system flash with an EXUP churning in your head!!! If you build it--they will come!! :motonoises:
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Offline cuda

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Re: ZX-14 or ZX-14R Exhaust for a C-14?
« Reply #33 on: December 26, 2016, 03:55:57 am »
Like I said before I used a 08 header , smaller diameter pipe that the newer 14r

Yes I could feel more power but how much ... who knows because it has never made it to a Dyno!

I rather have low end torque than 8 to 10,000 rpm hp. where the bigger pipes  of the 14r will shine , while the lower #s should be mine :)

If Steve wants to dyno my bike Great , You get that 14r remove the cats and then we'll know :beerchug:
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Offline connie_rider

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Re: ZX-14 or ZX-14R Exhaust for a C-14?
« Reply #34 on: December 26, 2016, 03:21:00 pm »
Throttle 8:
I'm too poor for a full Area p system. (But how did you know I looked at Exup?)  :??:
I suspect,, great minds think alike!!

Cuda, Dueling Headers at Steve's?
  Nice plan! (We'll have to wait and see if he decides to do a comparo test someday).

NOTE: Being one of the lucky Beta testers, Tomorrow,,, I'm sending my ECU to Steve so he can install his new Evolution Flash.
          Which means; there won't be any changes to my exhaust system until I report on it. (And ride it awhile, so others can see it)

Until then, lets keep the talks going.
I enjoy comparing idea's...

Ride safe, Ted
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Offline Egodriver71

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Re: ZX-14 or ZX-14R Exhaust for a C-14?
« Reply #35 on: January 05, 2017, 11:19:37 am »
I have a COMPLETE 14R systems to donate to the cause if necessary.

It's untouched and ready to go.
Thomas Mann
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Offline connie_rider

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Re: ZX-14 or ZX-14R Exhaust for a C-14?
« Reply #36 on: January 05, 2017, 03:00:50 pm »
Thanks Egodriver, I already bought one.
But,, It's setting in my garage for now, {as I just added Steve's new flash and want to ride with it for a time before doing changes}.
 
If someone else is interested in trying this,,, can they contact you?

PS: Which year ZX-14R do you have?
      Just realized, you sed Complete System. Do you have the stock mufflers?

Ride safe, Ted
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Offline Egodriver71

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Re: ZX-14 or ZX-14R Exhaust for a C-14?
« Reply #37 on: January 11, 2017, 10:25:35 pm »
It's from the first or second year of the 14R

Complete, all stock, only like 150ish miles on it.
Thomas Mann
Jacksonville, FL

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Offline connie_rider

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Offline connie_rider

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Re: ZX-14R Exhaust for a C-14?
« Reply #39 on: February 01, 2017, 06:15:00 pm »
I see a SISF full Area P system flash with an EXUP churning in your head!!! If you build it--they will come!! :motonoises:

Throttle 8

Throttle 8, your an evil man. >:D
Ever since you mentioned this, I've been thinking about it.
Instead of using 1 muffler (right side), I'm considering a EXUP that would keep a left muffler closed until I open the throttle to 75+% throttle.     Beginning to think I know a way to do it.

I knows it's wild and crazy, and might not do a thing.
But it's fun to see if I can figure out a way to make it operate.

Any other Mad inventors out there?
Idea's??

Ride safe, Ted

PS: I currently have Steve's Evo Flash and I love it!
      I don't plan to install the ZX header for some time as I'm going to ride with the EVO for awhile..
 
      Until I do the install, I playing with idea's on how to accomplish this..
      Hoping someone has an idea..
« Last Edit: February 02, 2017, 12:25:07 am by connie_rider »
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Offline The Pope

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Re: ZX-14 or ZX-14R Exhaust for a C-14?
« Reply #40 on: February 02, 2017, 10:14:30 am »
You "could" use something like this to activate your "Exhaust Cutout System" at .... say..... 7000 RPM (or some other RPM of your choice) vs. the +75% throttle: https://www.msdperformance.com/products/rpm_and_timing_controls/rpm_controls/parts/8950

There are other company's who make similar items. So look around and see if you can fine a more compact version from someone else if this one is too large.
The Pope
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Offline connie_rider

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Re: ZX-14 or ZX-14R Exhaust for a C-14?
« Reply #41 on: February 02, 2017, 06:24:38 pm »
Good find Pope!
   RPM controlled vs throttle positon controlled would definitely be a better way to go!

At this stage, I'm primarily trying to work out a way to make it operate.
    (so I can see if the valve opening, actually effects anything).
     Hopes being that 1 muffler will maintain ZG low/mid torque, and 2 mufflers ZX (like) top end power.

Initial thought being a (cheap) micro switch on the throttle linkage.
  (With electric solenoid or EXUP motor to move a butterfly valve).

If it shows promise, I'll use something like your find to more accurately control things..

Currently; I've been trying to find a butterfly valve to fit the 2" mid pipe?
                I think a EXUP Valve from a 2014 V Strom might be what I need.
                Can't find one. (yet)

Ride safe, Ted



« Last Edit: February 02, 2017, 08:49:05 pm by connie_rider »
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Offline Deltonian

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Re: ZX-14 or ZX-14R Exhaust for a C-14?
« Reply #42 on: February 02, 2017, 10:30:36 pm »
Ok, so, with all this engineered thought in process what is the viability to swap the c14 engine for a ZX14 engine?  May be a silly ? and expensive but have wondered if its even possible. Sorry if this is way off topic but I had to ask.. :motonoises:

Offline connie_rider

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Re: ZX-14 or ZX-14R Exhaust for a C-14?
« Reply #43 on: February 02, 2017, 10:48:06 pm »
Don't know the answer, but to start with, a person would have to put the ZX motor (crank/rods/pistons/cylinders/head/cams/exhaust/throttle bodies/etc) on a ZG Tranny...

Ride safe, Ted
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Offline Jim Snyder

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Re: ZX-14 or ZX-14R Exhaust for a C-14?
« Reply #44 on: February 03, 2017, 12:00:33 pm »
Don't know the answer, but to start with, a person would have to put the ZX motor (crank/rods/pistons/cylinders/head/cams/exhaust/throttle bodies/etc) on a ZG Tranny...

Ride safe, Ted

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Re: ZX-14 or ZX-14R Exhaust for a C-14?
« Reply #45 on: February 03, 2017, 12:51:53 pm »
Good find Pope!
   RPM controlled vs throttle positon controlled would definitely be a better way to go!



  I disagree. And this is with all the experience I have on this bikes tuning. Think about it. Steve
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Offline connie_rider

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Re: ZX-14 or ZX-14R Exhaust for a C-14?
« Reply #46 on: February 03, 2017, 04:02:57 pm »
Thinking about it..  :smiley_confused1:

What-iff we: Use both in series? 
  Use a micro switch on the throttle linkage {to initiate circuit}.
  Use a RPM switch in the circuit {to postpone Valve opening until "X" RPM is passed}.

For discussion, lets use WOT as Initiate value, and 7000 RPM as "X" RPM.


Here's our Rider;   :motonoises:

*Cruising: {Need smooth continuous torque}
        Rider uses moderate throttle, never opening to WOT or high RPM's.
        Valve will remain closed...

* Accell out of a curve: {Need smooth torque}
        Rider gives the throttle a twist but not WOT.
        Valve will remain closed, regardless of RPM...

* High gear Roll On: {Need torque to move the bike, Reduced back pressure as RPM increases}
        Rider gives the throttle a full {WOT} twist but initial RPM's are low.         
        Circuit will initiate but valve will remain closed, until 7000 RPM is reached...

*Banzai Blast thru the gears: {Need initial torque to move the bike, and maintain Reduced back pressure as RPM will remain high}
        Rider gives the throttle a full twist in a low gear and RPM's rise quickly!
          Circuit will be initiate at WOT and valve will open almost immediately, as 7000 RPM will come quickly!!
      "as he grabs each gear" "Our Hero" chops the throttle, shifts, and returns to WOT.
           Valve will try to close as throttle drops below WOT, and then re-open at WOT and 7000 RPM... {Could cause valve flutter}.
             {If I can figure out how to wire it,,, the exhaust valve would be Motor controlled, which move's semi-slowly,
                  because of the slow movement, the valve should cycle a few degrees, not flutter}

Thoughts?

Ride safe, Ted
« Last Edit: February 03, 2017, 11:27:36 pm by connie_rider »
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Offline connie_rider

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Re: ZX-14 or ZX-14R Exhaust for a C-14?
« Reply #47 on: February 03, 2017, 05:05:44 pm »
PS: Before any of this is built, we would need to prove that there is a difference in power between the use of 1 and 2 mufflers on a ZX-14 exhaust system.

ie;  Dyno pull with 2 mufflers installed.
      Dyno pull with 1 Muffler blocked off.

If there is a difference,,,, then the idea's on how to built it,,,, will become important.

Fer now; we're just talking "What-Iff's" and trying to find inexpensive {"Cheap"} ways to do it..


Another PS: My (cheap $11.00) EXUP Motor and cables just arrived in the Mail... yahoooooooooo  :great:
                  I'll use it to figure out how to use the 5 wires to operate the motor.  Idea's??

                   On EXUP systems, the motor is connected to the Exhaust valve by 2 cables.
                  I now need to find a 2" exhaust valve inside of a section of tubing. (Photo below)
                      A similar valve is in a 2014 V-Strom {DL-1000} or a Yamaha WR250R exhaust pipe.
                         Haven't found one to buy yet {cheap}..  Suggestions??

Ride safe, Ted

This is EXUP theory of operation and "photo" of what I need.
http://www.skutr.net/exhaust-valves-and-servo-motors-explained/

Yamaha WR250R EXUP valve operating..
https://video.search.yahoo.com/search/video?fr=yfp-t&p=exup+valve+operation#id=2&vid=f6fbaff7837d7564325d2b993ab654a4&action=view

« Last Edit: February 03, 2017, 05:33:29 pm by connie_rider »
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Offline mattchewn

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Re: ZX-14 or ZX-14R Exhaust for a C-14?
« Reply #48 on: February 04, 2017, 12:19:14 am »
Ted,
You asked, here is what I am thinking. To me it looks like a lot of work for less power than can easily be had by an Area P. I think the way to go would be to start with a larger diameter, (single or duals), system and then try flow control for more low and midrange gains.
Let me clarify a bit. 
The ZX has a decent and in some versions, slightly larger primary tube header a 2 inch pipe setup feeding 2 2 inch mid pipes and mufflers right?  Blocking one of those off might get you a little bit on the bottom, a BIG might. Since Kawasaki probably sized the exhaust properly to work with the duals it seems like building a ladder to drill for oil! I would think that you would want to start with a larger diameter pipe and then throttle the gasses back using a valve setup to keep the bottom and expand the mid and the top. I know it will in all likelihood work a little differently in concert with VVT and a "detuned" motor but the basics don't change from motor to motor. Also, There would definitely have to be a redesigned split section so as to not to adversely affect exhaust flow since you can't just "block off" one of the duals without causing some flow changes that are most likely quite undesirable.
Maybe I'm way off here?
Matt
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Re: ZX-14 or ZX-14R Exhaust for a C-14?
« Reply #49 on: February 04, 2017, 12:29:29 am »
Ted, why are folks removing these systems that you want to install?