Author Topic: ZX-14 or ZX-14R Exhaust for a C-14? (Read 24015 times)

cuda · « **Reply #50 on:** February 04, 2017, 12:43:03 am »

Because they put $1,000 Brock's racing headers on , everyone wants MORE HP

cuda · « **Reply #51 on:** February 04, 2017, 12:50:59 am »

The ZX14r is a stroker version of our motor, with more compression , bigger throttle body's hence the need for bigger pipes, plus they spin 1,000 more RPMs

When I drive around town I don't spin the motor past 8,000 rpms.

connie_rider · « **Reply #52 on:** February 04, 2017, 01:43:05 am »

Matt, thanks for your reply.
Your correct, I asked for it, and I do appreciate it, and I'd like more of your input..
Your also right. It would be easier to just install a Full System Area P.
All someone needs is $1000+ for the system, $375 for the Flash, and a few hours work. {Approx. $1400.00)

This all started when I realized several have installed ZX-14 exhausts on their bikes and claim increased power..
Being cheap, I thought, mebbe a ZX-14R will do almost the same thing as a Full Area P system..

Others removed Catalytic Converters from their ZG or ZX exhausts and claim increased power.
I discovered that a 2013 ZX-14R header has No converter.. {and their cheap}

So, I decided to see if a ZX system would work to increase top HP, and also try to find a way to keep the ZG low end torque.

So far, I bought a 2013 ZX-14R header to tinker with. (for $30) and a ZX-10 EXUP motor (for $11.00) {Total spent; $41.00}
{I already have Steve's Evo Flash and an Area P slip on}

Recently, I discovered that my Area P mid pipe and slip on will fit the right side of the ZX exhaust.
So I thought I'd just run the right pipe, and plug the left pipe.

And then, "AND THEN"

,,, I re-read throttle 8's note, and I thought,,,, hmmm, mebbe I could figure out how to do what he suggested.
Bottom line; That rotten Devil "Throttle 8" caused all this thinkin'...

NOTE: I can't calculate flow, but (for comparison) I calculated square area of the different mid pipes.
Stock ZG; mid pipe diameter is 2" (Square area is 3.1 Square inches)
Full Area P; mid pipe diameter is 2 1/4". (Square area is 3.9 Square inches)
Stock ZX-14; mid pipe diameter is 2" {x2} (Square area {1 side only} is 3.1 Square inches. {x2} is 6.2 Square Inches)

Note; a ZX-14R exhaust system has very similar dimensions to a Full Area P system, but the ZX has the potential
to flow 60% more. {3.9 vs 6.2 Square inches}
So I thought,, hmmm, mebbe I should control that.

Ride safe, Ted

connie_rider · « **Reply #53 on:** February 04, 2017, 01:44:12 am »

gpink, good question. I think; their removing the EXUP systems because they want the most HP they can get out of their engine.
their not concerned with what they might be doing to low end and mid range torque.

I want to try it because; I'm trying to {cheaply} increase top end power, without loosing low/mid range torque.
and, I'm retired, bored, and looking for something to tinker with. {but, I'm cheap}

Ride safe, Ted

Throttle 8 · « **Reply #54 on:** February 04, 2017, 06:49:40 am »

Quote from: connie_rider on February 04, 2017, 01:43:05 am

Matt, thanks for your reply.
Your correct, I asked for it, and I do appreciate it, and I'd like more of your input..
Your also right. It would be easier to just install a Full System Area P.
All someone needs is $1000+ for the system, $375 for the Flash, and a few hours work. {Approx. $1400.00)

This all started when I realized several have installed ZX-14 exhausts on their bikes and claim increased power..
Being cheap, I thought, mebbe a ZX-14R will do almost the same thing as a Full Area P system..

Others removed Catalytic Converters from their ZG or ZX exhausts and claim increased power.
I discovered that a 2013 ZX-14R header has No converter.. {and their cheap}

So, I decided to see if a ZX system would work to increase top HP, and also try to find a way to keep the ZG low end torque.

So far, I bought a 2013 ZX-14R header to tinker with. (for $30) and a ZX-10 EXUP motor (for $11.00) {Total spent; $41.00}
{I already have Steve's Evo Flash and an Area P slip on}

Recently, I discovered that my Area P mid pipe and slip on will fit the right side of the ZX exhaust.
So I thought I'd just run the right pipe, and plug the left pipe.

And then, "AND THEN" ,,, I re-read throttle 8's note, and I thought,,,, hmmm, mebbe I could figure out how to do what he suggested.
]Bottom line; That rotten Devil "Throttle 8" caused all this thinkin'NOTE: I can't calculate flow, but (for comparison) I calculated square area of the different mid pipes.
Stock ZG; mid pipe diameter is 2" (Square area is 3.1 Square inches)
Full Area P; mid pipe diameter is 2 1/4". (Square area is 3.9 Square inches)
Stock ZX-14; mid pipe diameter is 2" {x2} (Square area {1 side only} is 3.1 Square inches. {x2} is 6.2 Square Inches)

Note; a ZX-14R exhaust system has very similar dimensions to a Full Area P system, but the ZX has the potential
to flow 60% more. {3.9 vs 6.2 Square inches}
So I thought,, hmmm, mebbe I should control that.

Ride safe, Ted

You're Welcome! LOL!
With my mad mind control, I am thinking of changing my Handle to LORD VADER. lol!

Steve in Sunny Fla · « **Reply #55 on:** February 04, 2017, 01:07:36 pm »

Quote from: Throttle 8 on February 04, 2017, 06:49:40 am

You're Welcome! LOL!
With my mad mind control, I am thinking of changing my Handle to LORD VADER. lol!

Ted and Throttle8 :


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gxHksSvhLwQ

Steve

connie_rider · « **Reply #56 on:** February 04, 2017, 02:10:30 pm »

Steve, "Great" video and perfect timing!

From now on, Throttle8 will be known as "Snake" NOT Lord Vader..
Take that ~~Throttle8~~ "Snake",,, ya rotten Devil!

Matt, I owe you 2 more,, "Your Rights".
* Total flow should be controlled exactly as your saying.
* Restricting or varying flow on 1 side will probably cause turbulence/problems.

But, I don't know how to "control" total flow. <gloom>
So, I'm thinking to restrict the left pipe "and" find a way to vary that restriction with a Exhaust/butterfly valve.
NOTE: The Exhaust Valve may never open more than 20%.

Bottom line, the right pipe would be open and most flow will pass thru it.
Left pipe would be a variable pressure relief.

PS: I opened my EXUP Motor last night.
Learned which 2 wires control motor movement.
Think the remaining 3 wires send position signals to the ECU and it "controls" the movement.

So, I now know how to make the EXUP motor operate, but have no idea how to "control" that movement.

Luckily, ~~Throttle8~~ "Snake" is here, and will now explain how to "control" everything??

Ride safe, Ted

Steve in Sunny Fla · « **Reply #57 on:** February 04, 2017, 02:22:00 pm »

a little old school, I used these 15+ years ago to shut off a/c compressors when a hard load was applied. Vacuum operated and micro adjustable, you can use it to break a ground contact on a relay, etc. Set it for almost zero vacuum and you can get it to kick in for WOT or slighly less. Of course using electronics may be better, but I have concerns about messing up the voltages if additional resistance is applied.

http://www.worldmagnetics.com/

connie_rider · « **Reply #58 on:** February 04, 2017, 03:45:01 pm »

Thanks Steve.
I had to set and think about the magnetic/vacuum switch for awhile.
Your correct. It would be another (maybe better) way to tell the valve when to open / close.
With this, we now have several ways to tell the system it's time to open / close.
(For sake of discussion, we can call these "Initiate Switches" (IS). (They could initiate the motor movement)

The "control" problem I'm struggling with is,, controlling the amount and direction a motor moves the valve.
ie; at WOT and X RPM, the (IS) switch turns on, power is supplied and the motor starts rotating (to open the valve).
Simple,,

But here is the control problem; {Still at WOT}
After the valve reaches it's open point,,, how do we cut the power to the motor and hold the valve open,
or
{after Closing the throttle} How do we reverse the polarity of the 2 wires, to make the motor run the opposite direction,
and then cut the power to make it stop rotating?

I'm beginning to think it best to use a solenoid (instead of a motor) to open the valve and a spring to close it.
WOT throttle and x RPM; the (IS) switch would complete a circuit and the electric solenoid would open and hold
the valve open {to a stop point}. (We could pre-adjust that stop point to wherever we want it.)
Close the Throttle; the (IS) switch would break the circuit and the spring would close the valve.

Ride safe, Ted

Throttle 8 · « **Reply #59 on:** February 04, 2017, 05:14:42 pm »

LOL! Good video Steve!

I will let you ECU/electronic guru's figure out how to get it to run; meanwhile I will be studying the above video, and the Star Wars "not the droids you are looking for clip" to hone my skills so I will be able to command free beer at the Nationals this summer!

connie_rider · « **Reply #60 on:** February 04, 2017, 05:20:40 pm »

"Throttle8" if we were electronic Guru's,,, we'd already have this wiring figured out!
Speaking for me, I'm obviously simple minded, and easily swayed by "Snakes"...

Now, will someone please find me a 2" butterfly valve I can use?

Ride safe, Ted

Jim Snyder · « **Reply #61 on:** February 04, 2017, 06:28:19 pm »

Ted,
Speaking of old school have you considered vacuum activation of the butterfly like the secondary butterflies on an old Holley or Quadrajet carburetor?

Steve in Sunny Fla · « **Reply #62 on:** February 04, 2017, 06:44:06 pm »

Personally if it were me I think I'd rig a stepper motor to emulate the secondary throttle plate stepper. Glad it's not me.

and Jim you're right, old school for sure! I think that's how the first exups worked, of course it needs to be connected by cable so heat doesn't get to the diaphram.

steve

Jim Snyder · « **Reply #63 on:** February 04, 2017, 07:53:17 pm »

Quote from: Steve in Sunny Fla on February 04, 2017, 06:44:06 pm

Personally if it were me I think I'd rig a stepper motor to emulate the secondary throttle plate stepper. Glad it's not me.

and Jim you're right, old school for sure! I think that's how the first exups worked, of course it needs to be connected by cable so heat doesn't get to the diaphram.

steve

That could be done pretty easy with a longer rod on the vacuum diaphragm assembly to keep it away from the hot pipes.

connie_rider · « **Reply #64 on:** February 04, 2017, 10:06:01 pm »

I think I would have the same problem with a stepper motor.
I don't have an ECU to control when it opens or closes.
And I don't know how to wire a system to run and then reverse the motor. (To open and close the valve)

As far as vacuum to open, this has to open when the bike is at WOT and high RPM's.
I think I would need secondary (ported) vacuum?
(Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think the vacuum diaphragm on a 4 barrel carb is connected to secondary/ported vacuum?

Biggest problem with vacuum though, is we don't want this to move at WOT and low RPM's..
Want it to "only" open at WOT and high RPM's...

Ride safe, Ted

Steve in Sunny Fla · « **Reply #65 on:** February 04, 2017, 10:10:17 pm »

no, you'ld want manifold vacuum. Steve

Jim Snyder · « **Reply #66 on:** February 04, 2017, 10:34:36 pm »

Quote from: connie_rider on February 04, 2017, 10:06:01 pm

As far as vacuum to open, this has to open when the bike is at WOT and high RPM's.
I think I would need secondary (ported) vacuum?
(Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think the vacuum diaphragm on a 4 barrel carb is connected to secondary/ported vacuum?

Biggest problem with vacuum though, is we don't want this to move at WOT and low RPM's..
Want it to "only" open at WOT and high RPM's...

Ride safe, Ted

Steve is correct, you would want manifold vacuum. And to keep the door from opening at lower RPM's a spring to keep tension
on the flapper would solve that problem. But figuring out how strong a spring would be the only issue. Just sayin,

MAN OF BLUES · « **Reply #67 on:** February 04, 2017, 10:34:47 pm »

connie_rider · « **Reply #68 on:** February 04, 2017, 10:44:51 pm »

If I were to use a vacuum diaphragm to open the valve, I need the vacuum to increase when I open the throttle.
I do not want the valve to open at idle...
Definition from Internet; See below.

A) Full vac (Manifold vacuum) port is where the port/nipple is below the throttle blade.
You have full vac on these ports at idle and as you floor the throttle the vac goes away.

B) Timed or (ported vac) ports are above the throttle blades and
has no vac on it at idle but as you throttle up, it draws a vacuum.

However, which vacuum source should be used; {Manifold or Ported} isn't important.
Because, vacuum won't work for what I want. Not enough control.
ie; It wouldn't open the valve "only" at WOT and high RPM.

Ride safe, Ted

gPink · « **Reply #69 on:** February 04, 2017, 11:52:03 pm »

So you would need a vacuum cruise control mechanism tied to the TPS to operate exup valve to open at wot?

Jim Snyder · « **Reply #70 on:** February 04, 2017, 11:58:17 pm »

Ok then your best bet is a micro switch operating off of the throttle with an electric selenoid or servo Motor. The solenoid would give you and instant opening at WOT. The motor probably a slower actuation. Other than that this is getting way over my head. Reading all of this technical stuff is making my head hurt. I need a drink.

connie_rider · « **Reply #71 on:** February 05, 2017, 12:41:39 am »

So you would need a vacuum cruise control mechanism tied to the TPS to operate exup valve to open at wot?
I'm not sure exactly how a vacuum cruise control mechanism functions, but I think you may be close...

Ok then your best bet is a micro switch operating off of the throttle with an electric solenoid.
That's what I think is the best option we've discussed.
(but add a RPM switch or Magnetic vacuum switch to the circuit (in series with the micro switch) to ensure it only opens at high RPM's).

NOTE: NONE of this maters if the dyno runs show no difference in power on 1 muffler vs 2 muffler comparisons.
Until then, we're just throwing idea's up against the wall to see what sticks...

Ride safe, Ted

PS: Jim, my head hurts too. I think I may join you in that drink.

Throttle 8 · « **Reply #72 on:** February 05, 2017, 08:29:24 am »

Quote from: Steve in Sunny Fla on February 04, 2017, 06:44:06 pm

Personally if it were me I think I'd rig a stepper motor to emulate the secondary throttle plate stepper. Glad it's not me.

and Jim you're right, old school for sure! I think that's how the first exups worked, of course it needs to be connected by cable so heat doesn't get to the diaphram.

steve

My thinking exactly Steve. I figure the simplest way would be to do it the same as they did for the FZR 1000's of the early 90's.
Now back to my Jedi Mind beer trick study!

connie_rider · « **Reply #73 on:** February 05, 2017, 12:30:55 pm »

Ya'll obviously know more about a Stepper Motor than I.
"I know nothiiiiiinnnnggggggg.. (Sgt. Shultz imitation)

Care to explain to this Rookie? And, where/how was a Stepper Motor used on a FZR-1000?

Talked to Rev last night.
He basically confirmed that a wiring harness to control a EXUP motor is too complicated to build.

{Using the K.I.S.S. Principal}, he suggested building the Exhaust Valve with only a spring on it. (no electronic control)
If the right spring could be found, the valve would open only at WOT and high RPM..
Now, why didn't I think of that?

Ride safe, Ted

gPink · « **Reply #74 on:** February 05, 2017, 01:22:37 pm »

Ted, an interesting writeup....scroll down to the last section titled 'Variable Back-Pressure Exhaust'.

http://www.formula1-dictionary.net/exhaust_road_perf.html