Author Topic: ZX-14 or ZX-14R Exhaust for a C-14?  (Read 10856 times)

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Offline connie_rider

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ZX-14 or ZX-14R Exhaust for a C-14?
« on: December 13, 2016, 07:46:15 pm »
To all that have installed a ZX Exhaust (or other) on a Connie; Here is my sad story.

Recently I purchased a (2013) ZX-14R OEM Header that I may install on my Connie.
NOTE: I already love the way the bike runs, but wanted a project.
          Reason for the 2013 ZX-R exhaust in this project;
                The header has no Catalytic Converter.
                Headpipes are the largest of the ZX-14 systems.
                Exit ports on the system is the same size as the stock exhaust or the midpipe of my Area P slip on.   

Looks like this;
 http://www.ebay.com/itm/2014-Kawasaki-ZX14r-Header-Exhaust-/111820733387?hash=item1a0908fbcb:g:qncAAOSw~bFWQaA2&vxp=mtr

I know that some of you have removed (or talked about removing) their Cats, and some of you have installed ZX-14 exhausts.

Would you share your thoughts with me?   
To those that have installed the ZX-14 headers,,, is it worth doing, and what are the pitfalls?

Ride safe, Ted
« Last Edit: December 14, 2016, 05:08:56 pm by connie_rider »
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Offline gPink

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Re: ZX-14R Exhaust for a C-14?
« Reply #1 on: December 13, 2016, 08:02:03 pm »
You will need a left side mid pipe and fashion a hanger for it. May be clearance issues with the side stand and center stand. Are you going with a second area p?

Offline connie_rider

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Re: ZX-14R Exhaust for a C-14?
« Reply #2 on: December 13, 2016, 08:26:01 pm »
You may disagree, but my thought is to remove the left exhaust port entirely and smooth the reducer contour towards the right exhaust port..

Info;
Earlier ZX-14 (I think/ someone please confirm my dia's)
 Entire head pipe dia is (1 1/2") {38 mm}
 Exhaust port dia (x2) is (2 1/8") {approx. 54 mm}
 Has Catalytic converter.
   

ZX-14R: (2013 to current)
 Head pipe dia at the Flange is (1 1/2") {38 mm}
 Head pipe dia from 2" below the Flange, flares to (1 11/16") {43 mm}
 Exhaust port dia (x2) is (2 1/8") {54 mm}
 No Catalytic converter.

ZG-14 (Concours)
 Entire head pipe dia is (1 3/8") {35 mm}
 Exhaust port dia (x1) is (2 1/8") {54 mm}
 Has Catalytic converter.

Full Area P System {FAPS}
  Head pipe dia at the Flange is (1 1/2") {38 mm}
  Head pipe dia from below the Flange, flares to (1.730" {approx. 1 23/32"}) {44 mm}
 Exhaust port dia (x1) is approx. (2 1/4") {57 mm}
 No Catalytic converter.

Ride safe, Ted
« Last Edit: December 14, 2016, 04:17:58 pm by connie_rider, Reason: added Full Area P System dimensions »
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Offline Jim Snyder

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Re: ZX-14R Exhaust for a C-14?
« Reply #3 on: December 13, 2016, 11:55:08 pm »
Ted are you going to block off one side of the collector where it splits back into two ?
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Offline connie_rider

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Re: ZX-14R Exhaust for a C-14?
« Reply #4 on: December 14, 2016, 12:01:26 am »
Yes. Will block off the left side.
Will try to do it so flow is smooth.

Ride safe, Ted
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Offline Steve in Sunny Fla

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Re: ZX-14R Exhaust for a C-14?
« Reply #5 on: December 14, 2016, 02:00:25 am »
Ted, your #'s are off. BTW you need to measure and stick with MM in this case. the stock zg isn't 1.5", it's 35mm, 1.5" would be 37.5mm (mol) the early zx pipe was 38mm. There's also design differences between the zg and the zx. This doesn't mean your idea won't work, but you're also going to need to upsize the midpipe and muffler, and then of course, there's tuning. Your turn. Steve
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Offline seagiant1

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Re: ZX-14R Exhaust for a C-14?
« Reply #6 on: December 14, 2016, 03:50:54 am »
Hi,
        Not trying to be negative, and sounds like you know what you want to do, but.... :o

What will all this work give you that a simple/good, reflash on your ECU not provide? :-X

I'm not retired yet, work out of town, and have limited time to work/ride on my bike... :(

So maybe I am looking at this wrong? ::)

Just sayin! ;D
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Offline Fais

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Re: ZX-14R Exhaust for a C-14?
« Reply #7 on: December 14, 2016, 04:00:27 am »
Bigger pipes make more power at wide open throttle and high rpm. The sacrifice in responsiveness, low and mid range power aren't worth it since the 'Shoodabeen Flash' made its debut.

Now - I like a project and I know you do too - and this isn't a stupid idea or anything - shoot, this club is a support group for those of us who can't leave well enough alone and buy cheap beer but expensive motorcycle stuff! But, for me, ZX14 exhaust is all about the dual pipes 'look'. Add a 240 rear tire and the look is awesome IMO. I'm not after these things bc Betty is perfect but I love it when others personalize their beasts. So, Ted, get 'er done and post pics(!)

Are you leaving the ECU as-is or ? ? ? If I remember correctly you have the Shoodabeen Flash .... right?
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Re: ZX-14R Exhaust for a C-14?
« Reply #8 on: December 14, 2016, 04:28:10 am »
My excuses;  {OOps} On the ZG Head Pipes, I typed 1 1/2", meant to type 1 3/8". (I'll fix that)
                   I don't have a earlier ZX-14 to measure. {That's why I sed, "I think"}
                          I should have asked someone to confirm, but I think I'm off about .004"?...
                   On the ZG, I measured on the bike/fairing on, and it's hard to be exact.
                   On the ZX-R I measured and rounded a bit for comparison.
                   I measured with dial calipers.  (They measure in inches not MM)
                     {Left it as inches, as I thought folks could relate/compare better in inches}

I know inches and fractions are approx. But I thought inches was close e'nuff for a comparison?.
For instance; 1 3/8" is 1.375" & 35 mm is 1.378".
                    1 1/2" is 1.500" & 38 mm is 1.496".

Ya'll know me. I like to discuss and ask questions... I like to stir thoughts..
I posted because I want input from the COGdom.
I'm not out to argue. I genuinely want your input, even your insults are ok by me.
But, "Let's keep discussing the idea"!!


I want to know;    if others did special tuning with the ZX installation and what was it?
                           did removing the CAT make any difference?
                           was the Zx install worth the effort?
                           has anyone done a dyno run after the mods?
                          etc, etc, etc,,

Lastly; I agree that tuning will be big. That's part of why I'm asking for input.
           I do not want a Full Area P type of power band.
           I don't want the bike to fall flat on it's face at low rpm.
           I do want a power band with good low/mid range power.
           So, will the (decell) Flash I already have, work to do what I want, or will it croak?
               Does anyone know for certain?
                  Thoughts??

Seagiant/Fias: I am retired/poor, was bored, and was wanting a project.
                      Heck, I might not even put them on the bike... But, maybe it will benefit someone else.
                      After all, nothing new happens until someone sez,  "What if"..
                      For instance: "What if" I put foam in the intakes of a C-10.. >evil grin<

Final thought: This might not work for me at all. But, maybe it could help someone else.
                      Maybe {with the right tuning} it could be similar to a Full Area P power band?
                               Does anyone know for certain?
                                   Thoughts??

Ride safe, Ted    {Seeking more thoughts and discussion!!}  >:D
« Last Edit: December 14, 2016, 03:09:53 pm by connie_rider »
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Offline Jim Snyder

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Re: ZX-14R Exhaust for a C-14?
« Reply #9 on: December 14, 2016, 04:48:51 am »
Ted, I feel your pain brother. You know what I went through when I built the Con-tario system for my C-10. But it did work in the
end and I have a one of a kind setup now. Heck I still have a huge box full of exhaust pieces, adapters, and spare header pipes left
over from all of that tinkering. My exhaust flange bolts have been taken off and on so many times they have stretch marks. But hey
like you said nothing ever gets done if we don't try. Its like I always say, don't tell me they don't make one of those for my bike cause
I will build one !!! 
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Re: ZX-14R Exhaust for a C-14?
« Reply #10 on: December 14, 2016, 10:47:21 am »
Ted...... (more food for thought or....  :pokestick: or  :017: or :hee20hee20hee:  ) ...... If you want to go to a ZX14 exhaust, just get an aftermarket full length ZX14 system. It will save you a lot on headaches. That's the route that I went.
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Offline Steve in Sunny Fla

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Re: ZX-14R Exhaust for a C-14?
« Reply #11 on: December 14, 2016, 11:54:24 am »
Ted, the reason I would prefer to work in mm is because I have already been working on this, and have compiled measurements from other systems and have some 1st hand knowledge of how they work. For instance the area P starts at 38mm, flares to 44mm, has a sequential tri-y, dumps to a 2.25" mid and straight thru muffler. It dyno's very well and the top end is wicked, but it is was softer down low (I got it back with the Area P flash) . The yosh pipe for the zx is slightly smaller at 42mm, I like that better, and the muzzy, iirc is 43mm.  I also built a 35mm long tube 4 into one that didn't do the top end of the area P but pulled outstandingly well up to 7k, though it's still not optimum. I'm currently working on an exhaust idea, and now that I have anytime use of a working dyno  :nananana: :nananana: There will be more info eeked out in the very near future. BTW, your idea certainly merits experimentation. Steve
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Re: ZX-14R Exhaust for a C-14?
« Reply #12 on: December 14, 2016, 01:25:09 pm »
Steve,
Pardon this for being slightly off topic, but I often wonder about the perceived softness down low with the full Area P.  I read here on the forum some posts that made it seem as if the full Area P system even with the SISF flash is softer than the an SISF flashed stock system down low.  I really find that hard to believe.  My system runs like a scalded dog and is linear from down low to up high.  If you compare the numbers...what is the result?   :motonoises:
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Re: ZX-14R Exhaust for a C-14?
« Reply #13 on: December 14, 2016, 01:36:50 pm »
Patrick, when looking on the dyno, the WOT #'s show the area p outpowering stock even by 4000 rpm. The soft feeling comes during light / part throttle, though I got most if not all of that back with tuning. the issues is the big exhaust doesn't have any back pressure, and in fact is evacuating the cylinder of some of it's fresh charge during light throttle operation. Such is the nature of "big" when it comes to engine tuning. Cams, overlap, intake, throttle bodies, Ex pipes... big is the bane of low rpm torque. the only "big" that helps low rpm torque is compression, and there's a very finite amount of that to be used before the pistons break. Steve
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Offline Fais

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Re: ZX-14R Exhaust for a C-14?
« Reply #14 on: December 14, 2016, 01:45:11 pm »
If you lined up a hundred Connies with a hundred different exhausts they would all run like scalded dogs between our legs. I get my rocks off on my 75hp bike. I pass Harleys with EASE in the mountains on my 9hp Z125Pro - ! Our motor is gonna make great power unless you stuff a banana in there.

The engine is the engine and the exhaust (unless you wanna exaggerate) made with any common sense will only make small changes. Did anyone put an exhaust on their Connie and now it's slow? No!

I spent on my Muzzy to drop weight and because looking at the stock muffler literally upsets me aethetucsllg. Once or twice a year I repaint my exhaust black bc - well - shiny is for cruisers. Make it your own Ted!

So, whatever you do - you're still gonna have a mega power bike and one with your own exhaust set up too! Go for it.

Now if you really want to see your bike perform better than ever - and for free - just toss my the fob  :rotflmao:
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Re: ZX-14R Exhaust for a C-14?
« Reply #15 on: December 14, 2016, 03:07:23 pm »
Yahoo, that's what I wanted. Discussion and info!!


Everyone has good points too. (Even da Pope)  :nananana:
I'll try to reply to each...

Fias, your correct, a header doesn't make power.
But, it allows the engine to make all it can by being more efficient.
More importantly, headers are used to tune the exhaust pulses (so that the motor produces that power in the rpm range you want.)
What I'm hoping to accomplish, is a power band somewhere between the stock and the Full Area P System {ie; FAPS) "without" spending the big bucks for a full system that other (richer/non retired folks/i.e.: "da Pope") are able to buy.

Steve, I see your point about mm. I'll try to do better.
NOTE: You just gave me some of the key info I wanted. (Info on the Full Area P).
            I'll post the  {FAPS} numbers on Reply #3 and get back later on what I think this indicates.

Patrick, Steve, good input on the Full System characteristic's and throttle responce.

Jim, ole Buddy, I think you/me/Steve/others? have always agreed on two things.
              {Err' & mebbe a few more [wine/women/song]}
 1*  It's not how much power is made, it's where/how that power is made.
 2*  You'll never know if an idea works, if ya don't give it a try.

More replies, MORE REPLIES,,, I want discussion..

Ride safe, Ted
« Last Edit: December 14, 2016, 04:58:07 pm by connie_rider »
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Offline seagiant1

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Re: ZX-14R Exhaust for a C-14?
« Reply #16 on: December 14, 2016, 04:17:45 pm »
Hi,
        Well....I spent over 2K on some used Ohlin's bits? :o

I'm sure there were people here, that thought I was just wasting money? ::)

I don't feel that way of course, and feel I am reaping positive things from that decision! (wasn't easy!) >:D >:D >:D

Good luck with the project and please put up plenty of pics! :great:

I love bike projects, I just don't have the time now!!! :-[
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Offline connie_rider

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Re: ZX-14R Exhaust for a C-14?
« Reply #17 on: December 14, 2016, 04:34:11 pm »
Thanks Seagiant. We're on the same page.

I just added the Full Area System numbers to Reply #3. {Go take a look}
It appears that the ZX-14R system diameters will fall somewhere between a stock ZG system and a Full Area P System.
But, the head pipes are closer to the Full Area P dimensions.....
  {Which is exactly what I was hoping for}  >:D

Ride safe, Ted

PS: Is anyone running a {earlier} ZX-14 exhaust system with a stock, or Steve's Decell Flash?
      Is anyone running a ZG Exhaust with Cats removed and a stock, or Steve's Decell Flash?
       If so,,, we need your input!
« Last Edit: December 14, 2016, 06:15:08 pm by connie_rider »
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Offline Jim Snyder

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Re: ZX-14R Exhaust for a C-14?
« Reply #18 on: December 14, 2016, 05:58:23 pm »
"the issue is the big exhaust doesn't have any back pressure, and in fact is evacuating the cylinder of some of it's fresh charge during light throttle operation. Such is the nature of "big" when it comes to engine tuning. Cams, overlap, intake, throttle bodies, Ex pipes... big is the bane of low rpm torque. the only "big" that helps low rpm torque is compression, and there's a very finite amount of that to be used before the pistons break". Steve

Steve hit the nail on the head. Years ago the common belief was bigger has to be better when it came to exhaust. I proved that theory wrong for the first time back in the 80's while tinkering with my GPZ-750. After trying two exhaust systems with larger head pipes I ended up getting more low end torque and rideability (i.e. the area where we do 95% of our riding) by re-installing the stock head pipes. I ended up with the same scenario when I built the 4 into 1 pipe for my C-10. Larger head pipes killed the bottom end due to just what Steve described, reduced back pressure. When I mated the new exhaust back to the smaller head pipes she came alive on the bottom end. Steve has proven over and over that bigger is not always better. When he first introduced the new improved 2MM kit I was lucky to be his test pilot. The concept went against everything "I thought" was right when it came to airflow. But it worked. I read an article years ago by an old tuner who you may have heard of, Byron Hines (Andrew Hines father) who wrote, "an internal combustion engine is merely an air pump, the more efficiently it pumps air the faster it will go. As mentioned earlier I had an archives of pipe prototypes that didn't work, but it was stubborn determination that yielded the final product that worked. So continue on experimenting Mr. Ted, that is how innovation and new ideas are born. Ok I will go back to my corner now.     
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Offline connie_rider

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Re: ZX-14 or ZX-14R Exhaust for a C-14?
« Reply #19 on: December 14, 2016, 06:51:54 pm »
I also ran into the problem of bigger isn't better when I built the 4 into 1's for my C-10..
But I was able to increase low end by installing a smaller dia mid pipe/slip on.

Not actually experimenting yet as my welder won't be available until January.
Just looking at "what If's"..

Known; the ZX-R header; first 2 inches of the head pipes is bigger than the ZG, but they are the same size as the Full Area P system.
            the ZX-R header; after those 2" flairs to bigger head pipe runners than the ZG, but they are 1 mm smaller than the Full Area P system.
            the ZX-R header has the same size exhaust port as the ZG, {but there are 2 of them}
            the (2 ea.) ZX-R header exhausts ports are 6 mm smaller than the Full Area P system (which has 1 exhaust port).
               NOTE: An Area P Slip on uses a 2" Mid Pipe.
                         (I think) An Area P full system uses a 2 1/4" Mid Pipe

{Trying to get ya'll thinking},,
So, "What If";
        a guy (1; that prefers better low/mid power) uses 1 of the 2 header exhaust ports and an Area P (or other) slip on?
        a guy (2; that prefers better mid/high power) uses both of the header exhaust ports and 2 Area P (or other) slip on's?
        either 1 or 2,, could be done with no Cat removal and no welding? (ie: Bolt on)
        this works almost as good as a Full Area P System, but costs $600 less? >cheap grin<     

Another important known: If this was done, the stock and existing Flashes are not ideal. (But maybe their close?)

Ride safe, Ted
« Last Edit: December 14, 2016, 11:23:10 pm by connie_rider »
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Offline Steve in Sunny Fla

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Re: ZX-14 or ZX-14R Exhaust for a C-14?
« Reply #20 on: December 14, 2016, 08:11:41 pm »
Ted, that';s an interesting scenario you present, zx14r header, and then alter for one or 2 slipons, depending on where you want the power bias. Nice idea! Steve
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Offline seagiant1

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Re: ZX-14 or ZX-14R Exhaust for a C-14?
« Reply #21 on: December 14, 2016, 08:23:29 pm »
Hi,
        Ok, tell me this?

Admittedly I'm ignorant!

My understanding is, Steve has made a FLASH, to go with the Full AreaP Setup?

This gives you a quality pro set up with the bigger pipes, and a flash tailored for it?

Why then isn't this Nirvana, here on Planet Earth?

For those with the money and the desire?

I'm waiting for the new "Evo" Flash, to go with my simple stock system and a 18" Delkevic slip on with the baffle removed!
“If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, go home from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains set lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that ye were our countrymen.” -Samuel Adams

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Offline Steve in Sunny Fla

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Re: ZX-14 or ZX-14R Exhaust for a C-14?
« Reply #22 on: December 14, 2016, 08:30:57 pm »
Hi,
        Ok, tell me this?

Admittedly I'm ignorant!

My understanding is, Steve has made a FLASH, to go with the Full AreaP Setup?

This gives you a quality pro set up with the bigger pipes, and a flash tailored for it?

Why then isn't this Nirvana, here on Planet Earth?

For those with the money and the desire?

I'm waiting for the new "Evo" Flash, to go with my simple stock system and a 18" Delkevic slip on with the baffle removed!

 Are you in Fl right now? If so, have you noticed the past few days have been perfect! Perfect for tuning, that is... SAE correction factor today... 1.006 ... the real world isn't going to get much better, and I just finished my last run for evo flash fueling about an hour ago  ;)  Steve
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Offline seagiant1

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Re: ZX-14 or ZX-14R Exhaust for a C-14?
« Reply #23 on: December 14, 2016, 08:59:56 pm »
Are you in Fl right now? If so, have you noticed the past few days have been perfect! Perfect for tuning, that is... SAE correction factor today... 1.006 ... the real world isn't going to get much better, and I just finished my last run for evo flash fueling about an hour ago  ;)  Steve

Hi,
         Ha! Ha!

Sounds GREAT!

No, I'm working (out of State) and I know everyone is busy on the Holidays!

I'm glad now I waited on the "Evo"!

I'll call and check to see what your schedule is!!!

THANKS! :great:


“If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, go home from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains set lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that ye were our countrymen.” -Samuel Adams

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Offline connie_rider

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Re: ZX-14 or ZX-14R Exhaust for a C-14?
« Reply #24 on: December 15, 2016, 07:53:34 pm »
Is there no one out there that installed the ZX pipes on their Connie?

How about Full Area P guys?
C'mon, add to the discussion or kick holes in my idea.

Trying to learn and get others opinions..

Ride safe, Ted
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