Concours Owners Group (COG) Forum

Concours 14 Discussion (C14 / ZG1400 / 1400GTR) => Concours 14 / ZG1400 General Chat and Tech => Topic started by: connie_rider on December 13, 2016, 07:46:15 pm

Title: ZX-14 or ZX-14R Exhaust for a C-14?
Post by: connie_rider on December 13, 2016, 07:46:15 pm
To all that have installed a ZX Exhaust (or other) on a Connie; Here is my sad story.

Recently I purchased a (2013) ZX-14R OEM Header that I may install on my Connie.
NOTE: I already love the way the bike runs, but wanted a project.
          Reason for the 2013 ZX-R exhaust in this project;
                The header has no Catalytic Converter.
                Headpipes are the largest of the ZX-14 systems.
                Exit ports on the system is the same size as the stock exhaust or the midpipe of my Area P slip on.   

Looks like this;
 http://www.ebay.com/itm/2014-Kawasaki-ZX14r-Header-Exhaust-/111820733387?hash=item1a0908fbcb:g:qncAAOSw~bFWQaA2&vxp=mtr (http://www.ebay.com/itm/2014-Kawasaki-ZX14r-Header-Exhaust-/111820733387?hash=item1a0908fbcb:g:qncAAOSw~bFWQaA2&vxp=mtr)

I know that some of you have removed (or talked about removing) their Cats, and some of you have installed ZX-14 exhausts.

Would you share your thoughts with me?   
To those that have installed the ZX-14 headers,,, is it worth doing, and what are the pitfalls?

Ride safe, Ted
Title: Re: ZX-14R Exhaust for a C-14?
Post by: gPink on December 13, 2016, 08:02:03 pm
You will need a left side mid pipe and fashion a hanger for it. May be clearance issues with the side stand and center stand. Are you going with a second area p?
Title: Re: ZX-14R Exhaust for a C-14?
Post by: connie_rider on December 13, 2016, 08:26:01 pm
You may disagree, but my thought is to remove the left exhaust port entirely and smooth the reducer contour towards the right exhaust port..

Info;
Earlier ZX-14 (I think/ someone please confirm my dia's)
 Entire head pipe dia is (1 1/2") {38 mm}
 Exhaust port dia (x2) is (2 1/8") {approx. 54 mm}
 Has Catalytic converter.
   

ZX-14R: (2013 to current)
 Head pipe dia at the Flange is (1 1/2") {38 mm}
 Head pipe dia from 2" below the Flange, flares to (1 11/16") {43 mm}
 Exhaust port dia (x2) is (2 1/8") {54 mm}
 No Catalytic converter.

ZG-14 (Concours)
 Entire head pipe dia is (1 3/8") {35 mm}
 Exhaust port dia (x1) is (2 1/8") {54 mm}
 Has Catalytic converter.

Full Area P System {FAPS}
  Head pipe dia at the Flange is (1 1/2") {38 mm}
  Head pipe dia from below the Flange, flares to (1.730" {approx. 1 23/32"}) {44 mm}
 Exhaust port dia (x1) is approx. (2 1/4") {57 mm}
 No Catalytic converter.

Ride safe, Ted
Title: Re: ZX-14R Exhaust for a C-14?
Post by: Jim Snyder on December 13, 2016, 11:55:08 pm
Ted are you going to block off one side of the collector where it splits back into two ?
Title: Re: ZX-14R Exhaust for a C-14?
Post by: connie_rider on December 14, 2016, 12:01:26 am
Yes. Will block off the left side.
Will try to do it so flow is smooth.

Ride safe, Ted
Title: Re: ZX-14R Exhaust for a C-14?
Post by: Steve in Sunny Fla on December 14, 2016, 02:00:25 am
Ted, your #'s are off. BTW you need to measure and stick with MM in this case. the stock zg isn't 1.5", it's 35mm, 1.5" would be 37.5mm (mol) the early zx pipe was 38mm. There's also design differences between the zg and the zx. This doesn't mean your idea won't work, but you're also going to need to upsize the midpipe and muffler, and then of course, there's tuning. Your turn. Steve
Title: Re: ZX-14R Exhaust for a C-14?
Post by: seagiant1 on December 14, 2016, 03:50:54 am
Hi,
        Not trying to be negative, and sounds like you know what you want to do, but.... :o

What will all this work give you that a simple/good, reflash on your ECU not provide? :-X

I'm not retired yet, work out of town, and have limited time to work/ride on my bike... :(

So maybe I am looking at this wrong? ::)

Just sayin! ;D
Title: Re: ZX-14R Exhaust for a C-14?
Post by: Fais on December 14, 2016, 04:00:27 am
Bigger pipes make more power at wide open throttle and high rpm. The sacrifice in responsiveness, low and mid range power aren't worth it since the 'Shoodabeen Flash' made its debut.

Now - I like a project and I know you do too - and this isn't a stupid idea or anything - shoot, this club is a support group for those of us who can't leave well enough alone and buy cheap beer but expensive motorcycle stuff! But, for me, ZX14 exhaust is all about the dual pipes 'look'. Add a 240 rear tire and the look is awesome IMO. I'm not after these things bc Betty is perfect but I love it when others personalize their beasts. So, Ted, get 'er done and post pics(!)

Are you leaving the ECU as-is or ? ? ? If I remember correctly you have the Shoodabeen Flash .... right?
Title: Re: ZX-14R Exhaust for a C-14?
Post by: connie_rider on December 14, 2016, 04:28:10 am
My excuses;  {OOps} On the ZG Head Pipes, I typed 1 1/2", meant to type 1 3/8". (I'll fix that)
                   I don't have a earlier ZX-14 to measure. {That's why I sed, "I think"}
                          I should have asked someone to confirm, but I think I'm off about .004"?...
                   On the ZG, I measured on the bike/fairing on, and it's hard to be exact.
                   On the ZX-R I measured and rounded a bit for comparison.
                   I measured with dial calipers.  (They measure in inches not MM)
                     {Left it as inches, as I thought folks could relate/compare better in inches}

I know inches and fractions are approx. But I thought inches was close e'nuff for a comparison?.
For instance; 1 3/8" is 1.375" & 35 mm is 1.378".
                    1 1/2" is 1.500" & 38 mm is 1.496".

Ya'll know me. I like to discuss and ask questions... I like to stir thoughts..
I posted because I want input from the COGdom.
I'm not out to argue. I genuinely want your input, even your insults are ok by me.
But, "Let's keep discussing the idea"!!


I want to know;    if others did special tuning with the ZX installation and what was it?
                           did removing the CAT make any difference?
                           was the Zx install worth the effort?
                           has anyone done a dyno run after the mods?
                          etc, etc, etc,,

Lastly; I agree that tuning will be big. That's part of why I'm asking for input.
           I do not want a Full Area P type of power band.
           I don't want the bike to fall flat on it's face at low rpm.
           I do want a power band with good low/mid range power.
           So, will the (decell) Flash I already have, work to do what I want, or will it croak?
               Does anyone know for certain?
                  Thoughts??

Seagiant/Fias: I am retired/poor, was bored, and was wanting a project.
                      Heck, I might not even put them on the bike... But, maybe it will benefit someone else.
                      After all, nothing new happens until someone sez,  "What if"..
                      For instance: "What if" I put foam in the intakes of a C-10.. >evil grin<

Final thought: This might not work for me at all. But, maybe it could help someone else.
                      Maybe {with the right tuning} it could be similar to a Full Area P power band?
                               Does anyone know for certain?
                                   Thoughts??

Ride safe, Ted    {Seeking more thoughts and discussion!!}  >:D
Title: Re: ZX-14R Exhaust for a C-14?
Post by: Jim Snyder on December 14, 2016, 04:48:51 am
Ted, I feel your pain brother. You know what I went through when I built the Con-tario system for my C-10. But it did work in the
end and I have a one of a kind setup now. Heck I still have a huge box full of exhaust pieces, adapters, and spare header pipes left
over from all of that tinkering. My exhaust flange bolts have been taken off and on so many times they have stretch marks. But hey
like you said nothing ever gets done if we don't try. Its like I always say, don't tell me they don't make one of those for my bike cause
I will build one !!! 
Title: Re: ZX-14R Exhaust for a C-14?
Post by: The Pope on December 14, 2016, 10:47:21 am
Ted...... (more food for thought or....  :pokestick: or  :017: or :hee20hee20hee:  ) ...... If you want to go to a ZX14 exhaust, just get an aftermarket full length ZX14 system. It will save you a lot on headaches. That's the route that I went.
Title: Re: ZX-14R Exhaust for a C-14?
Post by: Steve in Sunny Fla on December 14, 2016, 11:54:24 am
Ted, the reason I would prefer to work in mm is because I have already been working on this, and have compiled measurements from other systems and have some 1st hand knowledge of how they work. For instance the area P starts at 38mm, flares to 44mm, has a sequential tri-y, dumps to a 2.25" mid and straight thru muffler. It dyno's very well and the top end is wicked, but it is was softer down low (I got it back with the Area P flash) . The yosh pipe for the zx is slightly smaller at 42mm, I like that better, and the muzzy, iirc is 43mm.  I also built a 35mm long tube 4 into one that didn't do the top end of the area P but pulled outstandingly well up to 7k, though it's still not optimum. I'm currently working on an exhaust idea, and now that I have anytime use of a working dyno  :nananana: :nananana: There will be more info eeked out in the very near future. BTW, your idea certainly merits experimentation. Steve
Title: Re: ZX-14R Exhaust for a C-14?
Post by: AmphibSailor on December 14, 2016, 01:25:09 pm
Steve,
Pardon this for being slightly off topic, but I often wonder about the perceived softness down low with the full Area P.  I read here on the forum some posts that made it seem as if the full Area P system even with the SISF flash is softer than the an SISF flashed stock system down low.  I really find that hard to believe.  My system runs like a scalded dog and is linear from down low to up high.  If you compare the numbers...what is the result?   :motonoises:
Title: Re: ZX-14R Exhaust for a C-14?
Post by: Steve in Sunny Fla on December 14, 2016, 01:36:50 pm
Patrick, when looking on the dyno, the WOT #'s show the area p outpowering stock even by 4000 rpm. The soft feeling comes during light / part throttle, though I got most if not all of that back with tuning. the issues is the big exhaust doesn't have any back pressure, and in fact is evacuating the cylinder of some of it's fresh charge during light throttle operation. Such is the nature of "big" when it comes to engine tuning. Cams, overlap, intake, throttle bodies, Ex pipes... big is the bane of low rpm torque. the only "big" that helps low rpm torque is compression, and there's a very finite amount of that to be used before the pistons break. Steve
Title: Re: ZX-14R Exhaust for a C-14?
Post by: Fais on December 14, 2016, 01:45:11 pm
If you lined up a hundred Connies with a hundred different exhausts they would all run like scalded dogs between our legs. I get my rocks off on my 75hp bike. I pass Harleys with EASE in the mountains on my 9hp Z125Pro - ! Our motor is gonna make great power unless you stuff a banana in there.

The engine is the engine and the exhaust (unless you wanna exaggerate) made with any common sense will only make small changes. Did anyone put an exhaust on their Connie and now it's slow? No!

I spent on my Muzzy to drop weight and because looking at the stock muffler literally upsets me aethetucsllg. Once or twice a year I repaint my exhaust black bc - well - shiny is for cruisers. Make it your own Ted!

So, whatever you do - you're still gonna have a mega power bike and one with your own exhaust set up too! Go for it.

Now if you really want to see your bike perform better than ever - and for free - just toss my the fob  :rotflmao:
Title: Re: ZX-14R Exhaust for a C-14?
Post by: connie_rider on December 14, 2016, 03:07:23 pm
Yahoo, that's what I wanted. Discussion and info!!


Everyone has good points too. (Even da Pope)  :nananana:
I'll try to reply to each...

Fias, your correct, a header doesn't make power.
But, it allows the engine to make all it can by being more efficient.
More importantly, headers are used to tune the exhaust pulses (so that the motor produces that power in the rpm range you want.)
What I'm hoping to accomplish, is a power band somewhere between the stock and the Full Area P System {ie; FAPS) "without" spending the big bucks for a full system that other (richer/non retired folks/i.e.: "da Pope") are able to buy.

Steve, I see your point about mm. I'll try to do better.
NOTE: You just gave me some of the key info I wanted. (Info on the Full Area P).
            I'll post the  {FAPS} numbers on Reply #3 and get back later on what I think this indicates.

Patrick, Steve, good input on the Full System characteristic's and throttle responce.

Jim, ole Buddy, I think you/me/Steve/others? have always agreed on two things.
              {Err' & mebbe a few more [wine/women/song]}
 1*  It's not how much power is made, it's where/how that power is made.
 2*  You'll never know if an idea works, if ya don't give it a try.

More replies, MORE REPLIES,,, I want discussion..

Ride safe, Ted
Title: Re: ZX-14R Exhaust for a C-14?
Post by: seagiant1 on December 14, 2016, 04:17:45 pm
Hi,
        Well....I spent over 2K on some used Ohlin's bits? :o

I'm sure there were people here, that thought I was just wasting money? ::)

I don't feel that way of course, and feel I am reaping positive things from that decision! (wasn't easy!) >:D >:D >:D

Good luck with the project and please put up plenty of pics! :great:

I love bike projects, I just don't have the time now!!! :-[
Title: Re: ZX-14R Exhaust for a C-14?
Post by: connie_rider on December 14, 2016, 04:34:11 pm
Thanks Seagiant. We're on the same page.

I just added the Full Area System numbers to Reply #3. {Go take a look}
It appears that the ZX-14R system diameters will fall somewhere between a stock ZG system and a Full Area P System.
But, the head pipes are closer to the Full Area P dimensions.....
  {Which is exactly what I was hoping for}  >:D

Ride safe, Ted

PS: Is anyone running a {earlier} ZX-14 exhaust system with a stock, or Steve's Decell Flash?
      Is anyone running a ZG Exhaust with Cats removed and a stock, or Steve's Decell Flash?
       If so,,, we need your input!
Title: Re: ZX-14R Exhaust for a C-14?
Post by: Jim Snyder on December 14, 2016, 05:58:23 pm
"the issue is the big exhaust doesn't have any back pressure, and in fact is evacuating the cylinder of some of it's fresh charge during light throttle operation. Such is the nature of "big" when it comes to engine tuning. Cams, overlap, intake, throttle bodies, Ex pipes... big is the bane of low rpm torque. the only "big" that helps low rpm torque is compression, and there's a very finite amount of that to be used before the pistons break". Steve

Steve hit the nail on the head. Years ago the common belief was bigger has to be better when it came to exhaust. I proved that theory wrong for the first time back in the 80's while tinkering with my GPZ-750. After trying two exhaust systems with larger head pipes I ended up getting more low end torque and rideability (i.e. the area where we do 95% of our riding) by re-installing the stock head pipes. I ended up with the same scenario when I built the 4 into 1 pipe for my C-10. Larger head pipes killed the bottom end due to just what Steve described, reduced back pressure. When I mated the new exhaust back to the smaller head pipes she came alive on the bottom end. Steve has proven over and over that bigger is not always better. When he first introduced the new improved 2MM kit I was lucky to be his test pilot. The concept went against everything "I thought" was right when it came to airflow. But it worked. I read an article years ago by an old tuner who you may have heard of, Byron Hines (Andrew Hines father) who wrote, "an internal combustion engine is merely an air pump, the more efficiently it pumps air the faster it will go. As mentioned earlier I had an archives of pipe prototypes that didn't work, but it was stubborn determination that yielded the final product that worked. So continue on experimenting Mr. Ted, that is how innovation and new ideas are born. Ok I will go back to my corner now.     
Title: Re: ZX-14 or ZX-14R Exhaust for a C-14?
Post by: connie_rider on December 14, 2016, 06:51:54 pm
I also ran into the problem of bigger isn't better when I built the 4 into 1's for my C-10..
But I was able to increase low end by installing a smaller dia mid pipe/slip on.

Not actually experimenting yet as my welder won't be available until January.
Just looking at "what If's"..

Known; the ZX-R header; first 2 inches of the head pipes is bigger than the ZG, but they are the same size as the Full Area P system.
            the ZX-R header; after those 2" flairs to bigger head pipe runners than the ZG, but they are 1 mm smaller than the Full Area P system.
            the ZX-R header has the same size exhaust port as the ZG, {but there are 2 of them}
            the (2 ea.) ZX-R header exhausts ports are 6 mm smaller than the Full Area P system (which has 1 exhaust port).
               NOTE: An Area P Slip on uses a 2" Mid Pipe.
                         (I think) An Area P full system uses a 2 1/4" Mid Pipe

{Trying to get ya'll thinking},,
So, "What If";
        a guy (1; that prefers better low/mid power) uses 1 of the 2 header exhaust ports and an Area P (or other) slip on?
        a guy (2; that prefers better mid/high power) uses both of the header exhaust ports and 2 Area P (or other) slip on's?
        either 1 or 2,, could be done with no Cat removal and no welding? (ie: Bolt on)
        this works almost as good as a Full Area P System, but costs $600 less? >cheap grin<     

Another important known: If this was done, the stock and existing Flashes are not ideal. (But maybe their close?)

Ride safe, Ted
Title: Re: ZX-14 or ZX-14R Exhaust for a C-14?
Post by: Steve in Sunny Fla on December 14, 2016, 08:11:41 pm
Ted, that';s an interesting scenario you present, zx14r header, and then alter for one or 2 slipons, depending on where you want the power bias. Nice idea! Steve
Title: Re: ZX-14 or ZX-14R Exhaust for a C-14?
Post by: seagiant1 on December 14, 2016, 08:23:29 pm
Hi,
        Ok, tell me this?

Admittedly I'm ignorant!

My understanding is, Steve has made a FLASH, to go with the Full AreaP Setup?

This gives you a quality pro set up with the bigger pipes, and a flash tailored for it?

Why then isn't this Nirvana, here on Planet Earth?

For those with the money and the desire?

I'm waiting for the new "Evo" Flash, to go with my simple stock system and a 18" Delkevic slip on with the baffle removed!
Title: Re: ZX-14 or ZX-14R Exhaust for a C-14?
Post by: Steve in Sunny Fla on December 14, 2016, 08:30:57 pm
Hi,
        Ok, tell me this?

Admittedly I'm ignorant!

My understanding is, Steve has made a FLASH, to go with the Full AreaP Setup?

This gives you a quality pro set up with the bigger pipes, and a flash tailored for it?

Why then isn't this Nirvana, here on Planet Earth?

For those with the money and the desire?

I'm waiting for the new "Evo" Flash, to go with my simple stock system and a 18" Delkevic slip on with the baffle removed!

 Are you in Fl right now? If so, have you noticed the past few days have been perfect! Perfect for tuning, that is... SAE correction factor today... 1.006 ... the real world isn't going to get much better, and I just finished my last run for evo flash fueling about an hour ago  ;)  Steve
Title: Re: ZX-14 or ZX-14R Exhaust for a C-14?
Post by: seagiant1 on December 14, 2016, 08:59:56 pm
Are you in Fl right now? If so, have you noticed the past few days have been perfect! Perfect for tuning, that is... SAE correction factor today... 1.006 ... the real world isn't going to get much better, and I just finished my last run for evo flash fueling about an hour ago  ;)  Steve

Hi,
         Ha! Ha!

Sounds GREAT!

No, I'm working (out of State) and I know everyone is busy on the Holidays!

I'm glad now I waited on the "Evo"!

I'll call and check to see what your schedule is!!!

THANKS! :great:


Title: Re: ZX-14 or ZX-14R Exhaust for a C-14?
Post by: connie_rider on December 15, 2016, 07:53:34 pm
Is there no one out there that installed the ZX pipes on their Connie?

How about Full Area P guys?
C'mon, add to the discussion or kick holes in my idea.

Trying to learn and get others opinions..

Ride safe, Ted
Title: Re: ZX-14 or ZX-14R Exhaust for a C-14?
Post by: Gypsy JR on December 15, 2016, 09:18:52 pm
Sort of off the subject, but I come in contact with a lot of Harley-Davidson bikes with straight pipes. Like at H.O.G. meetings, and at dealerships I visit in my travels.

I never argue with them about the value of a loud bike (there isn't one, its just noise, by the time they hear you its too late).

But I always point out that by reducing exhaust back pressure they are seriously hindering the engine's ability to make torque and horsepower. That only by increasing the flow of the intake ports, changing the cam timing, and altering the A/F ration will the open exhaust produce a positive result.

At which point you'd have a race engine, basically, with all the attendant problems.

They just shut up at that point.
Title: Re: ZX-14 or ZX-14R Exhaust for a C-14?
Post by: gPink on December 15, 2016, 09:46:46 pm
Is there no one out there that installed the ZX pipes on their Connie?

How about Full Area P guys?
C'mon, add to the discussion or kick holes in my idea.

Trying to learn and get others opinions..

Ride safe, Ted

Ted , I put a zx header and muzzy cf duals on my '08 back in '10. What do you want to know and what is your end goal?
Title: Re: ZX-14 or ZX-14R Exhaust for a C-14?
Post by: cuda on December 15, 2016, 10:13:44 pm
Ted , I put a zx header and muzzy cf duals on my '08 back in '10. What do you want to know and what is your end goal?
[/quote]

To grow hair on the palms of his hands...
Title: Re: ZX-14 or ZX-14R Exhaust for a C-14?
Post by: connie_rider on December 16, 2016, 12:38:02 am
Ahh, victims for me to question!!

JR, I agree with you to a point.
Your correct, an open exhaust can kill the torque.
I intend to keep 1 (Area P) muffler with the same ID as a ZG, to keep back pressure and reduce noise.

In properly designed header the exhaust flow is more efficient {in a specific RPM range}.
If this Header will work in the correct range,,, it will increase the flow of the intake ports, and alter the A/F ration {because of improved scavenging and proper control of the exhaust pulses}.
I'm hoping someone has information of past installs...

When you installed headers on your previous bikes, what was the result?

GPink/Cuda, what was the benefit or downfall of your ZX header installations?
  Did you do anything else to control AF ratio etc?
  What was the size of the Mid pipes?
  Did you remove a Catalytic Converter?
  Did you remove the flies?

End Goal. is EZ,,
   I want Power!! Lots and lots of POWER!!     Arr, arr, arr,,,,,,,,,  >:D
     But I want it to be controllable, and have good low/mid torque...
       ie: better than stock and a Full Area P.. But cheap!!
     And, I want to keep the idea's coming.
            Bekuz,,, I just like to discuss things...

Cuda, I already have hair on the palms of my hands.
            I want to grow some on top of my err slightly balding head..   :rotflmao:

Ride safe, Ted
Title: Re: ZX-14 or ZX-14R Exhaust for a C-14?
Post by: gPink on December 16, 2016, 10:01:03 am
Ted, 2007 zx14 headers (no cats) PC5 w/Autotune. Secondaries removed. Throttle cables adjusted and Throttle tamer installed. No downside. Extremely smooth. Never dyno'ed. At the time this was the only means to an end and I really like the dual setup. I'll see about OD pipe measurements this weekend.
Title: Re: ZX-14 or ZX-14R Exhaust for a C-14?
Post by: connie_rider on December 16, 2016, 12:50:44 pm
Good info. Yes, please confirm the dimensions I have.
Extremely smooth and more powerful?
Did you happen to ride it without autotune and flies removed?

NOTE: Leaving in a few minutes to go hunting.
          Will be back next week.

Ride safe, Ted
Title: Re: ZX-14 or ZX-14R Exhaust for a C-14?
Post by: connie_rider on December 20, 2016, 08:46:05 pm
Back from my hunt.
See no replies.

I was selected to test Steve's new Flash, so this project is on hold for a time.

All I have is an idea and a ZX-14R header. 
Would still like to hear from folks that have installed ZX-14 or Zx-14R headers.

Is this a waste of time?

Ride safe, Ted
Title: Re: ZX-14R Exhaust for a C-14?
Post by: Throttle 8 on December 20, 2016, 09:25:18 pm
Patrick, when looking on the dyno, the WOT #'s show the area p outpowering stock even by 4000 rpm. The soft feeling comes during light / part throttle, though I got most if not all of that back with tuning. the issues is the big exhaust doesn't have any back pressure, and in fact is evacuating the cylinder of some of it's fresh charge during light throttle operation. Such is the nature of "big" when it comes to engine tuning. Cams, overlap, intake, throttle bodies, Ex pipes... big is the bane of low rpm torque. the only "big" that helps low rpm torque is compression, and there's a very finite amount of that to be used before the pistons break. Steve


I see a SISF full Area P system flash with an EXUP churning in your head!!! If you build it--they will come!! :motonoises:
Title: Re: ZX-14 or ZX-14R Exhaust for a C-14?
Post by: cuda on December 26, 2016, 03:55:57 am
Like I said before I used a 08 header , smaller diameter pipe that the newer 14r

Yes I could feel more power but how much ... who knows because it has never made it to a Dyno!

I rather have low end torque than 8 to 10,000 rpm hp. where the bigger pipes  of the 14r will shine , while the lower #s should be mine :)

If Steve wants to dyno my bike Great , You get that 14r remove the cats and then we'll know :beerchug:
Title: Re: ZX-14 or ZX-14R Exhaust for a C-14?
Post by: connie_rider on December 26, 2016, 03:21:00 pm
Throttle 8:
I'm too poor for a full Area p system. (But how did you know I looked at Exup?)  :??:
I suspect,, great minds think alike!!

Cuda, Dueling Headers at Steve's?
  Nice plan! (We'll have to wait and see if he decides to do a comparo test someday).

NOTE: Being one of the lucky Beta testers, Tomorrow,,, I'm sending my ECU to Steve so he can install his new Evolution Flash.
          Which means; there won't be any changes to my exhaust system until I report on it. (And ride it awhile, so others can see it)

Until then, lets keep the talks going.
I enjoy comparing idea's...

Ride safe, Ted
Title: Re: ZX-14 or ZX-14R Exhaust for a C-14?
Post by: Egodriver71 on January 05, 2017, 11:19:37 am
I have a COMPLETE 14R systems to donate to the cause if necessary.

It's untouched and ready to go.
Title: Re: ZX-14 or ZX-14R Exhaust for a C-14?
Post by: connie_rider on January 05, 2017, 03:00:50 pm
Thanks Egodriver, I already bought one.
But,, It's setting in my garage for now, {as I just added Steve's new flash and want to ride with it for a time before doing changes}.
 
If someone else is interested in trying this,,, can they contact you?

PS: Which year ZX-14R do you have?
      Just realized, you sed Complete System. Do you have the stock mufflers?

Ride safe, Ted
Title: Re: ZX-14 or ZX-14R Exhaust for a C-14?
Post by: Egodriver71 on January 11, 2017, 10:25:35 pm
It's from the first or second year of the 14R

Complete, all stock, only like 150ish miles on it.
Title: Re: ZX-14 or ZX-14R Exhaust for a C-14?
Post by: connie_rider on January 13, 2017, 05:39:11 pm
Found mufflers that would fit, reasonable cost.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/KAWASAKI-ZX-14R-ZZR1400-ZX14-12-16-14-STUBBY-STAINLESS-EXHAUST-MUFFLER-SET-/190779990311?hash=item2c6b5fa127:g:IGUAAOSwFnFV8iq7&vxp=mtr (http://www.ebay.com/itm/KAWASAKI-ZX-14R-ZZR1400-ZX14-12-16-14-STUBBY-STAINLESS-EXHAUST-MUFFLER-SET-/190779990311?hash=item2c6b5fa127:g:IGUAAOSwFnFV8iq7&vxp=mtr)

Ride safe, Ted
Title: Re: ZX-14R Exhaust for a C-14?
Post by: connie_rider on February 01, 2017, 06:15:00 pm
I see a SISF full Area P system flash with an EXUP churning in your head!!! If you build it--they will come!! :motonoises:

Throttle 8

Throttle 8, your an evil man. >:D
Ever since you mentioned this, I've been thinking about it.
Instead of using 1 muffler (right side), I'm considering a EXUP that would keep a left muffler closed until I open the throttle to 75+% throttle.     Beginning to think I know a way to do it.

I knows it's wild and crazy, and might not do a thing.
But it's fun to see if I can figure out a way to make it operate.

Any other Mad inventors out there?
Idea's??

Ride safe, Ted

PS: I currently have Steve's Evo Flash and I love it!
      I don't plan to install the ZX header for some time as I'm going to ride with the EVO for awhile..
 
      Until I do the install, I playing with idea's on how to accomplish this..
      Hoping someone has an idea..
Title: Re: ZX-14 or ZX-14R Exhaust for a C-14?
Post by: The Pope on February 02, 2017, 10:14:30 am
You "could" use something like this to activate your "Exhaust Cutout System" at .... say..... 7000 RPM (or some other RPM of your choice) vs. the +75% throttle: https://www.msdperformance.com/products/rpm_and_timing_controls/rpm_controls/parts/8950 (https://www.msdperformance.com/products/rpm_and_timing_controls/rpm_controls/parts/8950)

There are other company's who make similar items. So look around and see if you can fine a more compact version from someone else if this one is too large.
Title: Re: ZX-14 or ZX-14R Exhaust for a C-14?
Post by: connie_rider on February 02, 2017, 06:24:38 pm
Good find Pope!
   RPM controlled vs throttle positon controlled would definitely be a better way to go!

At this stage, I'm primarily trying to work out a way to make it operate.
    (so I can see if the valve opening, actually effects anything).
     Hopes being that 1 muffler will maintain ZG low/mid torque, and 2 mufflers ZX (like) top end power.

Initial thought being a (cheap) micro switch on the throttle linkage.
  (With electric solenoid or EXUP motor to move a butterfly valve).

If it shows promise, I'll use something like your find to more accurately control things..

Currently; I've been trying to find a butterfly valve to fit the 2" mid pipe?
                I think a EXUP Valve from a 2014 V Strom might be what I need.
                Can't find one. (yet)

Ride safe, Ted



Title: Re: ZX-14 or ZX-14R Exhaust for a C-14?
Post by: walter on February 02, 2017, 10:30:36 pm
Ok, so, with all this engineered thought in process what is the viability to swap the c14 engine for a ZX14 engine?  May be a silly ? and expensive but have wondered if its even possible. Sorry if this is way off topic but I had to ask.. :motonoises:
Title: Re: ZX-14 or ZX-14R Exhaust for a C-14?
Post by: connie_rider on February 02, 2017, 10:48:06 pm
Don't know the answer, but to start with, a person would have to put the ZX motor (crank/rods/pistons/cylinders/head/cams/exhaust/throttle bodies/etc) on a ZG Tranny...

Ride safe, Ted
Title: Re: ZX-14 or ZX-14R Exhaust for a C-14?
Post by: Jim Snyder on February 03, 2017, 12:00:33 pm
Don't know the answer, but to start with, a person would have to put the ZX motor (crank/rods/pistons/cylinders/head/cams/exhaust/throttle bodies/etc) on a ZG Tranny...

Ride safe, Ted

If momma Kaw does things like she always has the shaft drive primary drive should be swappable with the chain drive assembly housing. 
Title: Re: ZX-14 or ZX-14R Exhaust for a C-14?
Post by: Steve in Sunny Fla on February 03, 2017, 12:51:53 pm
Good find Pope!
   RPM controlled vs throttle positon controlled would definitely be a better way to go!



  I disagree. And this is with all the experience I have on this bikes tuning. Think about it. Steve
Title: Re: ZX-14 or ZX-14R Exhaust for a C-14?
Post by: connie_rider on February 03, 2017, 04:02:57 pm
Thinking about it..  :smiley_confused1:

What-iff we: Use both in series? 
  Use a micro switch on the throttle linkage {to initiate circuit}.
  Use a RPM switch in the circuit {to postpone Valve opening until "X" RPM is passed}.

For discussion, lets use WOT as Initiate value, and 7000 RPM as "X" RPM.


Here's our Rider;   :motonoises:

*Cruising: {Need smooth continuous torque}
        Rider uses moderate throttle, never opening to WOT or high RPM's.
        Valve will remain closed...

* Accell out of a curve: {Need smooth torque}
        Rider gives the throttle a twist but not WOT.
        Valve will remain closed, regardless of RPM...

* High gear Roll On: {Need torque to move the bike, Reduced back pressure as RPM increases}
        Rider gives the throttle a full {WOT} twist but initial RPM's are low.         
        Circuit will initiate but valve will remain closed, until 7000 RPM is reached...

*Banzai Blast thru the gears: {Need initial torque to move the bike, and maintain Reduced back pressure as RPM will remain high}
        Rider gives the throttle a full twist in a low gear and RPM's rise quickly!
          Circuit will be initiate at WOT and valve will open almost immediately, as 7000 RPM will come quickly!!
      "as he grabs each gear"  "Our Hero"  chops the throttle, shifts, and returns to WOT.
           Valve will try to close as throttle drops below WOT, and then re-open at WOT and 7000 RPM... {Could cause valve flutter}.
             {If I can figure out how to wire it,,, the exhaust valve would be Motor controlled, which move's semi-slowly,
                  because of the slow movement, the valve should cycle a few degrees, not flutter}

Thoughts?

Ride safe, Ted
Title: Re: ZX-14 or ZX-14R Exhaust for a C-14?
Post by: connie_rider on February 03, 2017, 05:05:44 pm
PS: Before any of this is built, we would need to prove that there is a difference in power between the use of 1 and 2 mufflers on a ZX-14 exhaust system.

ie;  Dyno pull with 2 mufflers installed.
      Dyno pull with 1 Muffler blocked off.

If there is a difference,,,, then the idea's on how to built it,,,, will become important.

Fer now; we're just talking "What-Iff's" and trying to find inexpensive {"Cheap"} ways to do it..


Another PS: My (cheap $11.00) EXUP Motor and cables just arrived in the Mail... yahoooooooooo  :great:
                  I'll use it to figure out how to use the 5 wires to operate the motor.  Idea's??

                   On EXUP systems, the motor is connected to the Exhaust valve by 2 cables.
                  I now need to find a 2" exhaust valve inside of a section of tubing. (Photo below)
                      A similar valve is in a 2014 V-Strom {DL-1000} or a Yamaha WR250R exhaust pipe.
                         Haven't found one to buy yet {cheap}..  Suggestions??

Ride safe, Ted

This is EXUP theory of operation and "photo" of what I need.
http://www.skutr.net/exhaust-valves-and-servo-motors-explained/ (http://www.skutr.net/exhaust-valves-and-servo-motors-explained/)

Yamaha WR250R EXUP valve operating..
https://video.search.yahoo.com/search/video?fr=yfp-t&p=exup+valve+operation#id=2&vid=f6fbaff7837d7564325d2b993ab654a4&action=view (https://video.search.yahoo.com/search/video?fr=yfp-t&p=exup+valve+operation#id=2&vid=f6fbaff7837d7564325d2b993ab654a4&action=view)

Title: Re: ZX-14 or ZX-14R Exhaust for a C-14?
Post by: mattchewn on February 04, 2017, 12:19:14 am
Ted,
You asked, here is what I am thinking. To me it looks like a lot of work for less power than can easily be had by an Area P. I think the way to go would be to start with a larger diameter, (single or duals), system and then try flow control for more low and midrange gains.
Let me clarify a bit. 
The ZX has a decent and in some versions, slightly larger primary tube header a 2 inch pipe setup feeding 2 2 inch mid pipes and mufflers right?  Blocking one of those off might get you a little bit on the bottom, a BIG might. Since Kawasaki probably sized the exhaust properly to work with the duals it seems like building a ladder to drill for oil! I would think that you would want to start with a larger diameter pipe and then throttle the gasses back using a valve setup to keep the bottom and expand the mid and the top. I know it will in all likelihood work a little differently in concert with VVT and a "detuned" motor but the basics don't change from motor to motor. Also, There would definitely have to be a redesigned split section so as to not to adversely affect exhaust flow since you can't just "block off" one of the duals without causing some flow changes that are most likely quite undesirable.
Maybe I'm way off here?
Matt
Title: Re: ZX-14 or ZX-14R Exhaust for a C-14?
Post by: gPink on February 04, 2017, 12:29:29 am
Ted, why are folks removing these systems that you want to install?
Title: Re: ZX-14 or ZX-14R Exhaust for a C-14?
Post by: cuda on February 04, 2017, 12:43:03 am
Because they put $1,000 Brock's racing headers on , everyone wants MORE HP :08:
Title: Re: ZX-14 or ZX-14R Exhaust for a C-14?
Post by: cuda on February 04, 2017, 12:50:59 am
The ZX14r is a stroker version of our motor,   with more compression , bigger throttle body's hence the need for bigger pipes, plus they spin 1,000 more RPMs

When I drive around town I don't spin the motor past 8,000 rpms. 
Title: Re: ZX-14 or ZX-14R Exhaust for a C-14?
Post by: connie_rider on February 04, 2017, 01:43:05 am
Matt, thanks for your reply.
Your correct, I asked for it, and I do appreciate it, and I'd like more of your input..
Your also right. It would be easier to just install a Full System Area P.
All someone needs is $1000+ for the system,  $375 for the Flash, and a few hours work. {Approx. $1400.00)

This all started when I realized several have installed ZX-14 exhausts on their bikes and claim increased power..
Being cheap, I thought, mebbe a ZX-14R will do almost the same thing as a Full Area P system..

Others removed Catalytic Converters from their ZG or ZX exhausts and claim increased power.
I discovered that a 2013 ZX-14R header has No converter.. {and their cheap}

So, I decided to see if a ZX system would work to increase top HP, and also try to find a way to keep the ZG low end torque.

So far, I bought a 2013 ZX-14R header to tinker with. (for $30) and a ZX-10 EXUP motor (for $11.00)   {Total spent; $41.00}   
            {I already have Steve's Evo Flash and an Area P slip on}

Recently, I discovered that my Area P mid pipe and slip on will fit the right side of the ZX exhaust.
So I thought I'd just run the right pipe, and plug the left pipe.

And then, "AND THEN" :-[,,, I re-read throttle 8's note, and I thought,,,, hmmm, mebbe I could figure out how to do what he suggested.
Bottom line; That rotten Devil "Throttle 8" caused all this thinkin'...  >:(

NOTE: I can't calculate flow, but (for comparison) I calculated square area of the different mid pipes.
          Stock ZG; mid pipe diameter is 2" (Square area is 3.1 Square inches)
          Full Area P; mid pipe diameter is 2 1/4". (Square area is 3.9 Square inches)
          Stock ZX-14; mid pipe diameter is 2" {x2} (Square area {1 side only} is 3.1 Square inches. {x2} is 6.2 Square Inches)

Note; a ZX-14R exhaust system has very similar dimensions to a Full Area P system, but the ZX has the potential
           to flow 60% more. {3.9 vs 6.2 Square inches}
           So I thought,, hmmm, mebbe I should control that.

Ride safe, Ted

Title: Re: ZX-14 or ZX-14R Exhaust for a C-14?
Post by: connie_rider on February 04, 2017, 01:44:12 am
gpink, good question. I think; their removing the EXUP systems because they want the most HP they can get out of their engine.
                                            their not concerned with what they might be doing to low end and mid range torque.
         
I want to try it because; I'm trying to {cheaply} increase top end power, without loosing low/mid range torque.
                                    and, I'm retired, bored, and looking for something to tinker with. {but, I'm cheap}

Ride safe, Ted

Title: Re: ZX-14 or ZX-14R Exhaust for a C-14?
Post by: Throttle 8 on February 04, 2017, 06:49:40 am
Matt, thanks for your reply.
Your correct, I asked for it, and I do appreciate it, and I'd like more of your input..
Your also right. It would be easier to just install a Full System Area P.
All someone needs is $1000+ for the system,  $375 for the Flash, and a few hours work. {Approx. $1400.00)

This all started when I realized several have installed ZX-14 exhausts on their bikes and claim increased power..
Being cheap, I thought, mebbe a ZX-14R will do almost the same thing as a Full Area P system..

Others removed Catalytic Converters from their ZG or ZX exhausts and claim increased power.
I discovered that a 2013 ZX-14R header has No converter.. {and their cheap}

So, I decided to see if a ZX system would work to increase top HP, and also try to find a way to keep the ZG low end torque.

So far, I bought a 2013 ZX-14R header to tinker with. (for $30) and a ZX-10 EXUP motor (for $11.00)   {Total spent; $41.00}   
            {I already have Steve's Evo Flash and an Area P slip on}

Recently, I discovered that my Area P mid pipe and slip on will fit the right side of the ZX exhaust.
So I thought I'd just run the right pipe, and plug the left pipe.

And then, "AND THEN" :-[,,, I re-read throttle 8's note, and I thought,,,, hmmm, mebbe I could figure out how to do what he suggested.
]Bottom line; That rotten Devil "Throttle 8" caused all this thinkin'NOTE:
I can't calculate flow, but (for comparison) I calculated square area of the different mid pipes.
          Stock ZG; mid pipe diameter is 2" (Square area is 3.1 Square inches)
          Full Area P; mid pipe diameter is 2 1/4". (Square area is 3.9 Square inches)
          Stock ZX-14; mid pipe diameter is 2" {x2} (Square area {1 side only} is 3.1 Square inches. {x2} is 6.2 Square Inches)

Note; a ZX-14R exhaust system has very similar dimensions to a Full Area P system, but the ZX has the potential
           to flow 60% more. {3.9 vs 6.2 Square inches}
           So I thought,, hmmm, mebbe I should control that.

Ride safe, Ted



You're Welcome! LOL!
With my mad mind control, I am thinking of changing my Handle to LORD VADER. lol!
Title: Re: ZX-14 or ZX-14R Exhaust for a C-14?
Post by: Steve in Sunny Fla on February 04, 2017, 01:07:36 pm

You're Welcome! LOL!
With my mad mind control, I am thinking of changing my Handle to LORD VADER. lol!

Ted and Throttle8 :

  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gxHksSvhLwQ (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gxHksSvhLwQ)

Steve
Title: Re: ZX-14 or ZX-14R Exhaust for a C-14?
Post by: connie_rider on February 04, 2017, 02:10:30 pm
Steve, "Great" video and perfect timing!  :great:
From now on, Throttle8 will be known as "Snake" NOT Lord Vader..
Take that Throttle8 "Snake",,, ya rotten Devil!   :nananana:

Matt, I owe you 2 more,, "Your Rights".
     * Total flow should be controlled exactly as your saying.
     * Restricting or varying flow on 1 side will probably cause turbulence/problems.

But, I don't know how to "control" total flow. <gloom>
   So, I'm thinking to restrict the left pipe "and" find a way to vary that restriction with a Exhaust/butterfly valve.
       NOTE: The Exhaust Valve may never open more than 20%.

Bottom line, the right pipe would be open and most flow will pass thru it.
                   Left pipe would be a variable pressure relief.

PS: I opened my EXUP Motor last night.
         Learned which 2 wires control motor movement.
         Think the remaining 3 wires send position signals to the ECU and it "controls" the movement.

So, I now know how to make the EXUP motor operate, but have no idea how to "control" that movement.  >:(

Luckily, Throttle8 "Snake" is here, and will now explain how to "control" everything??   >:D

Ride safe, Ted
Title: Re: ZX-14 or ZX-14R Exhaust for a C-14?
Post by: Steve in Sunny Fla on February 04, 2017, 02:22:00 pm
 a little old school, I used these 15+ years ago to shut off a/c compressors when a hard load was applied. Vacuum operated and micro adjustable, you can use it to break a ground contact on a relay, etc. Set it for almost zero vacuum and you can get it to kick in for WOT or slighly less. Of course using electronics may be better, but I have concerns about messing up the voltages if additional resistance is applied.

 http://www.worldmagnetics.com/ (http://www.worldmagnetics.com/)
Title: Re: ZX-14 or ZX-14R Exhaust for a C-14?
Post by: connie_rider on February 04, 2017, 03:45:01 pm
Thanks Steve.
I had to set and think about the magnetic/vacuum switch for awhile.
Your correct. It would be another (maybe better) way to tell the valve when to open / close.
With this, we now have several ways to tell the system it's time to open / close.
(For sake of discussion, we can call these "Initiate Switches" (IS). (They could initiate the motor movement)

The "control" problem I'm struggling with is,, controlling the amount and direction a motor moves the valve.
ie; at WOT and X RPM, the (IS) switch turns on, power is supplied and the motor starts rotating (to open the valve).
Simple,,

But here is the control problem; {Still at WOT}
    After the valve reaches it's open point,,, how do we cut the power to the motor and hold the valve open,
        or
   {after Closing the throttle} How do we reverse the polarity of the 2 wires, to make the motor run the opposite direction,
        and then cut the power to make it stop rotating?

I'm beginning to think it best to use a solenoid (instead of a motor) to open the valve and a spring to close it.
  WOT throttle and x RPM; the (IS) switch would complete a circuit and the electric solenoid would open and hold
         the valve open {to a stop point}. (We could pre-adjust that stop point to wherever we want it.)
  Close the Throttle; the (IS) switch would break the circuit and the spring would close the valve.

Ride safe, Ted
Title: Re: ZX-14 or ZX-14R Exhaust for a C-14?
Post by: Throttle 8 on February 04, 2017, 05:14:42 pm
LOL! Good video Steve!  ;D

I will let you ECU/electronic guru's figure out how to get it to run; meanwhile I will be studying the above video, and the Star Wars "not the droids you are looking for clip" to hone my skills so I will be able to command free beer at the Nationals this summer! :nananana: :beerchug:
Title: Re: ZX-14 or ZX-14R Exhaust for a C-14?
Post by: connie_rider on February 04, 2017, 05:20:40 pm
"Throttle8" if we were electronic Guru's,,, we'd already have this wiring figured out!
Speaking for me, I'm obviously simple minded, and easily swayed by "Snakes"...  >:(

Now, will someone please find me a 2" butterfly valve I can use?   >:D

Ride safe, Ted
Title: Re: ZX-14 or ZX-14R Exhaust for a C-14?
Post by: Jim Snyder on February 04, 2017, 06:28:19 pm
Ted,
   Speaking of old school have you considered vacuum activation of the butterfly like the secondary butterflies on an old Holley or Quadrajet carburetor? 
Title: Re: ZX-14 or ZX-14R Exhaust for a C-14?
Post by: Steve in Sunny Fla on February 04, 2017, 06:44:06 pm
Personally if it were me I think I'd rig a stepper motor to emulate the secondary throttle plate stepper. Glad it's not me.  :nananana:

  and Jim you're right, old school for sure! I think that's how the first exups worked, of course it needs to be connected by cable so heat doesn't get to the diaphram.

 steve
Title: Re: ZX-14 or ZX-14R Exhaust for a C-14?
Post by: Jim Snyder on February 04, 2017, 07:53:17 pm
Personally if it were me I think I'd rig a stepper motor to emulate the secondary throttle plate stepper. Glad it's not me.  :nananana:

  and Jim you're right, old school for sure! I think that's how the first exups worked, of course it needs to be connected by cable so heat doesn't get to the diaphram.

 steve

That could be done pretty easy with a longer rod on the vacuum diaphragm assembly to keep it away from the hot pipes. 
Title: Re: ZX-14 or ZX-14R Exhaust for a C-14?
Post by: connie_rider on February 04, 2017, 10:06:01 pm
I think I would have the same problem with a stepper motor.
  I don't have an ECU to control when it opens or closes.
  And I don't know how to wire a system to run and then reverse the motor. (To open and close the valve)

As far as vacuum to open, this has to open when the bike is at WOT and high RPM's.
I think I would need secondary (ported) vacuum?
(Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think the vacuum diaphragm on a 4 barrel carb is connected to secondary/ported vacuum?

Biggest problem with vacuum though, is we don't want this to move at WOT and low RPM's..
Want it to "only" open at WOT and high RPM's...

Ride safe, Ted
Title: Re: ZX-14 or ZX-14R Exhaust for a C-14?
Post by: Steve in Sunny Fla on February 04, 2017, 10:10:17 pm
no, you'ld want manifold vacuum. Steve
Title: Re: ZX-14 or ZX-14R Exhaust for a C-14?
Post by: Jim Snyder on February 04, 2017, 10:34:36 pm

As far as vacuum to open, this has to open when the bike is at WOT and high RPM's.
I think I would need secondary (ported) vacuum?
(Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think the vacuum diaphragm on a 4 barrel carb is connected to secondary/ported vacuum?

Biggest problem with vacuum though, is we don't want this to move at WOT and low RPM's..
Want it to "only" open at WOT and high RPM's...

Ride safe, Ted

Steve is correct, you would want manifold vacuum. And to keep the door from opening at lower RPM's a spring to keep tension
on the flapper would solve that problem. But figuring out how strong a spring would be the only issue. Just sayin,
Title: Re: ZX-14 or ZX-14R Exhaust for a C-14?
Post by: MAN OF BLUES on February 04, 2017, 10:34:47 pm
 :popcorncouple: :popcorncouple: :popcorncouple: :hum: :popcorncouple: :popcorncouple: :confuse: :popcorncouple: :popcorncouple:
Title: Re: ZX-14 or ZX-14R Exhaust for a C-14?
Post by: connie_rider on February 04, 2017, 10:44:51 pm
If I were to use a vacuum diaphragm to open the valve, I need the vacuum to increase when I open the throttle.
I do not want the valve to open at idle...
Definition from Internet; See below.

A) Full vac (Manifold vacuum) port is where the port/nipple is below the throttle blade.   
        You have full vac on these ports at idle and as you floor the throttle the vac goes away.

B) Timed or (ported vac) ports are above the throttle blades and
         has no vac on it at idle but as you throttle up, it draws a vacuum.

However, which vacuum source should be used; {Manifold or Ported} isn't important.
   Because, vacuum won't work for what I want. Not enough control.
      ie; It wouldn't open the valve "only" at WOT and high RPM.



Ride safe, Ted
Title: Re: ZX-14 or ZX-14R Exhaust for a C-14?
Post by: gPink on February 04, 2017, 11:52:03 pm
So you would need a vacuum cruise control mechanism tied to the TPS to operate exup valve to open at wot?
Title: Re: ZX-14 or ZX-14R Exhaust for a C-14?
Post by: Jim Snyder on February 04, 2017, 11:58:17 pm
Ok then your best bet is a micro switch operating off of the throttle with an electric selenoid or servo Motor. The solenoid would give you and instant opening at WOT. The motor probably a slower actuation. Other than that this is getting way over my head. Reading all of this technical stuff is making my head hurt. I need a drink.
Title: Re: ZX-14 or ZX-14R Exhaust for a C-14?
Post by: connie_rider on February 05, 2017, 12:41:39 am
So you would need a vacuum cruise control mechanism tied to the TPS to operate exup valve to open at wot?
     I'm not sure exactly how a vacuum cruise control mechanism functions, but I think you may be close...

Ok then your best bet is a micro switch operating off of the throttle with an electric solenoid.
   That's what I think is the best option we've discussed.
   (but add a RPM switch or Magnetic vacuum switch to the circuit (in series with the micro switch) to ensure it only opens at high RPM's).

NOTE: NONE of this maters if the dyno runs show no difference in power on 1 muffler vs 2 muffler comparisons.
            Until then, we're just throwing idea's up against the wall to see what sticks...  :great:

Ride safe, Ted

PS: Jim, my head hurts too. I think I may join you in that drink.   :beerchug:
Title: Re: ZX-14 or ZX-14R Exhaust for a C-14?
Post by: Throttle 8 on February 05, 2017, 08:29:24 am
Personally if it were me I think I'd rig a stepper motor to emulate the secondary throttle plate stepper. Glad it's not me.  :nananana:

  and Jim you're right, old school for sure! I think that's how the first exups worked, of course it needs to be connected by cable so heat doesn't get to the diaphram.

 steve

My thinking exactly Steve. I figure the simplest way would be to do it the same as they did for the FZR 1000's of the early 90's.
Now back to my Jedi Mind beer trick study! :beerchug:
Title: Re: ZX-14 or ZX-14R Exhaust for a C-14?
Post by: connie_rider on February 05, 2017, 12:30:55 pm
Ya'll obviously know more about a Stepper Motor than I.
   "I know nothiiiiiinnnnggggggg..  (Sgt. Shultz imitation)  :a102:

Care to explain to this Rookie?   And, where/how was a Stepper Motor used on a FZR-1000?

Talked to Rev last night.
He basically confirmed that a wiring harness to control a EXUP motor is too complicated to build.

{Using the K.I.S.S. Principal}, he suggested building the Exhaust Valve with only a spring on it. (no electronic control)
If the right spring could be found, the valve would open only at WOT and high RPM..
Now, why didn't I think of that?   :-[

Ride safe, Ted
Title: Re: ZX-14 or ZX-14R Exhaust for a C-14?
Post by: gPink on February 05, 2017, 01:22:37 pm
Ted, an interesting writeup....scroll down to the last section titled 'Variable Back-Pressure Exhaust'.

http://www.formula1-dictionary.net/exhaust_road_perf.html (http://www.formula1-dictionary.net/exhaust_road_perf.html)
Title: Re: ZX-14 or ZX-14R Exhaust for a C-14?
Post by: connie_rider on February 05, 2017, 05:08:06 pm
Thank's Gpink!   
A 'Variable Back-Pressure Exhaust' {VB-PE} is exactly what I've been trying to develop in my feeble mind.
That was the final piece of info I needed to understand the function.
 "And", it gave me the info I needed to develop Rev's idea. <evil grin>

I "think" I know how to build it now...
"If" I can figure it out, it will have;
                        All mechanical components.
                        No wiring, no switches.
                        Installation will only require 1 small mod to my ZX-14R exhaust.
                        If it doesn't work, the VB-PE can be removed and the ZX-14 exhaust returned to it's original flow...

To the drawing board!!!!!

Ride safe, Ted

PS: I now BADLY need a 2" dia Butterfly valve and shaft.
      No body / external housing needed.
Title: Re: ZX-14 or ZX-14R Exhaust for a C-14?
Post by: Jim Snyder on February 05, 2017, 05:45:11 pm
If you go the spring route there are a variety of carburetor return springs available that might fit the bill.
Title: Re: ZX-14 or ZX-14R Exhaust for a C-14?
Post by: connie_rider on February 05, 2017, 06:58:38 pm
Sketches done.
Rough dimensions determined.
Looks "do-able".......   :great:

Did I mention?
   I now BADLY need a 2" dia Butterfly valve and shaft.
      No body / external housing needed.
[/color]
I'm planning to use "several" light weight spring's {very similar to the Carb return springs Jim mentioned}.

Ride safe, Ted
Title: Re: ZX-14 or ZX-14R Exhaust for a C-14?
Post by: Jim Snyder on February 05, 2017, 09:08:00 pm
Sketches done.
Rough dimensions determined.
Looks "do-able".......   :great:

Did I mention?
   I now BADLY need a 2" dia Butterfly valve and shaft.
      No body / external housing needed.
[/color]
I'm planning to use "several" light weight spring's {very similar to the Carb return springs Jim mentioned}.

Ride safe, Ted

Yo Ted, you can find those carb return Springs at most auto parts stores. If I remember correctly many of them are two stage or rather have an inner and outer spring together.
Title: Re: ZX-14 or ZX-14R Exhaust for a C-14?
Post by: mattchewn on February 06, 2017, 12:51:42 pm
Ted,
I wasn't referring to buying an Area P to start with. I was only saying start with a larger mid pipe diameter and throttle back the flow to increase the low end. That way you "get it all" as it were. Changing only the collector assembly and replacing with a larger diameter might be just what the doctor ordered.  The trick is going to come in making the exhaust flow smoothly without disrupting the scavenging effects needed for max power and torque!  Maybe??
Matt
Title: Re: ZX-14 or ZX-14R Exhaust for a C-14?
Post by: connie_rider on February 06, 2017, 03:07:47 pm
Ok, I thought you were saying don't waste my time. Buy the Area P and be done.

I think I follow your explanation, and I think the ZX-14R header does most of what your describing.
 [Geez we need to talk.... This is hard to describe with a keyboard]
Look at photo's to see details.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/12-15-KAWASAKI-NINJA-ZX14-ZX14R-EXHAUST-HEADERS-OEM/152112234050?_trksid=p2047675.c100011.m1850&_trkparms=aid%3D222007%26algo%3DSIC.MBE%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D20140602152332%26meid%3D98b0ed274be44d698651d715fa5fe7cc%26pid%3D100011%26rk%3D2%26rkt%3D7%26sd%3D111820733387 (http://www.ebay.com/itm/12-15-KAWASAKI-NINJA-ZX14-ZX14R-EXHAUST-HEADERS-OEM/152112234050?_trksid=p2047675.c100011.m1850&_trkparms=aid%3D222007%26algo%3DSIC.MBE%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D20140602152332%26meid%3D98b0ed274be44d698651d715fa5fe7cc%26pid%3D100011%26rk%3D2%26rkt%3D7%26sd%3D111820733387)

This header has; Larger head pipes than a ZG,
                         same flange size as a Full Area P system with similar head pipe expansion. {but largest dia. is 1 mm smaller}
NOTE: The pipes between the head pipes are braces only. NOT pressure balance passages.

The 4 head pipes "Y" into 2 passages before entering the collector.

Collector; Is initially large, necks down, then expands again.
                  {like a venturi} which might help scavenging.
               {Has no Cat. plus it has a smoother exit port design than the 2007 Header}
              Has a plate down the center isolating the left from right.
                That plate converts the sides of the collector into 2 runners that are 9' long.
                {I think this plate effectively changes the header from a typical 4 into 1 /collector design to Tri Y type design}
              Those 2 runners merge into an open chamber at the back.

From that chamber the exhaust exits thru 2  (2" dia. / 3.1 Square inches) mid pipes.
  The 2 mid pipes (6.2 total square inches) are the thing that don't match your scenario.
         I think they have to much flow...

So, I intially decided to block 1 off...
           But, I agree; just blocking off 1 port will cause turbulence/etc issues..

Next, I planned to remove the left port, bend the tail of the inner plate to direct flow to the right, and also mod the rear housing to direct flow in that direction.    {NOTE: I may still do this}.

And then,, "and THEN",,,,,, I read Throttle8's "Snake's" note.  :41:
    Immediately, my eyes crossed, everything got fuzzy, and my brain started spinning..
            I think I HATE him...

I thought; maybe a dump valve (adjusted to open slightly) would increase flow, and relieve pressure at WOT.        .
      So,,  I started this discussion to get others thoughts.

Most seem to think; it won't work.
                               Can't be built.
                                 Total waste of time...

Which REALLY make's we want to try...  >:D

Ride safe, Ted
Title: Re: ZX-14 or ZX-14R Exhaust for a C-14?
Post by: connie_rider on February 06, 2017, 03:22:15 pm
Did I mention?  I still need a 2" dia Butterfly valve and shaft.     
Have lathe to build my own Housing, shaft, butterfly plate.
But, don't have a mill to do mounting details.
So easiest option is to start with an existing 2" dia Butterfly valve and shaft.

Does anyone have one????

Considered an Automotive Exhaust manifold/ Heat Riser valve, but would be more difficult..

Ride safe, Ted
Title: Re: ZX-14 or ZX-14R Exhaust for a C-14?
Post by: gPink on February 06, 2017, 03:22:42 pm
Ted put the mouse down and step away from the keyboard..... :truce:

Try to calm yourself....  :rotflmao:
Title: Re: ZX-14 or ZX-14R Exhaust for a C-14?
Post by: connie_rider on February 06, 2017, 04:07:41 pm
Ted put the mouse down and step away from the keyboard..... :truce:
Try to calm yourself....  :rotflmao:


I'm truuyyyyiinnggg........  {sniff}  :'(

This is the closest I've found to what I want.
It's Stainless steel, Vacuum or boost operated.
But too big. {2 1/2"},  and 2 expensive to modify. {ie; buy and cut to pieces)

http://www.ebay.com/itm/63mm-Close-Style-Vacuum-Activated-Exhaust-Cutout-Dump-Valve-Pressure-about-1-Bar-/201739320476?hash=item2ef899bc9c:g:H0wAAOSw4GVYRRsi&vxp=mtr (http://www.ebay.com/itm/63mm-Close-Style-Vacuum-Activated-Exhaust-Cutout-Dump-Valve-Pressure-about-1-Bar-/201739320476?hash=item2ef899bc9c:g:H0wAAOSw4GVYRRsi&vxp=mtr)

Ride safe, Ted
Title: Re: ZX-14 or ZX-14R Exhaust for a C-14?
Post by: connie_rider on February 07, 2017, 03:07:05 pm
Jim Snyder may have found a source for the valve I need.
    The company he found makes the valves out of SS.
    Some have bearings on the pivot shafts to reduce friction.
    They also build automotive race exhaust's {with valves built in} for tuning/pressure relief.
            hmm, "who'd a thought", adding a valve in the exhaust to adjust back pressure...

Unfortunately, that company is in China...   >:(

Ride safe, Ted

Title: Re: ZX-14 or ZX-14R Exhaust for a C-14?
Post by: Jim Snyder on February 07, 2017, 04:34:06 pm
Jim Snyder may have found a source for the valve I need.
    The company he found makes the valves out of SS.
    Some have bearings on the pivot shafts to reduce friction.
    They also build automotive race exhaust's {with valves built in} for tuning/pressure relief.
            hmm, "who'd a thought", a valve in the exhaust to adjust back pressure...

Unfortunately, that company is in China...   >:(

Ride safe, Ted

In my best Elvis Presley voice, "Thank ya, thank ya very much". That's why I am the exhaust guru guy. I just hope this project doesn't take you as long
as my 4 into 1 header project did. I still have a pile of leftovers from that project. The struggle is real my brother !!!
Title: Re: ZX-14 or ZX-14R Exhaust for a C-14?
Post by: Steve in Sunny Fla on February 08, 2017, 04:09:14 pm
I was sniffin' around the webz, doing some "research" and stumbled upon this, from AreaP

          "  quote:...I'm slightly off-topic here, but what are the chances of an 4-2 AreaP with left-side hanger for the C14 and all of the access features of the 4-2-1?



        Wormie - There is no chance. Sorry.....



    ...thanks for the reply, Kerry...is it no chance at all or no chance right now?...if its no chance at all, can you divulge why there's no chance?...is it because of the physical limitations of the underside that'll compromise accessibility, performance, and aesthetics?....or is it the limited market?....or is it the prohibited expense?...or????

    ...I respectfully ask these questions because there are owners and potential owners out there who desire the aesthetics of a 4-2 for the C14...the lines of the bike beg for it imho...the bike has enough stock hp/tq for some folks like me....I'd be happy with the weight-savings alone of a properly desined aftermarket 4-2...I wished Kawasaki had designed it from the begining to be a 4-2...then I'd just buy your sexy slip-ons...

    ...that being said, I'm glad there are folks like you and your son who are willing to make and actually produce a better performing, lighter weight, and less expensive exhaust system for the the C14 than the factory's heavier and expensive exhaust system ...



Well if it's for you, I could always do a "one-off".... And hey, thank you for the comments.

Before answering, please note - I'm not comparing our system to Muzzy's 4-2. I have nothing but the utmost respect for Rob and have known him since the stone-age. I believe he designed a very well thought out, great looking product for the crowd that desires a dual muffler system. And there are plenty of you out there.

Anyway, reason(s) being; performance, weight, sound, price. "Aesthetics" will always be in the eye of the beholder. Performance - a 4-2 simply will not put out the power and/or overall powerband of a properly designed, merge collector 4-2-1. Although a 4-2-1-2 may work decent, but still not as good. And then you got to get all that mess to fit the bike.... It can be more difficult to map correctly because the left side collector/mid-pipe area is design compromised to get around the drive housing, side stand, and/or centerstand arm. Obviously it will weigh significantly more as well as potentially putting out more heat. The exhaust tone will of course be "different", mostly not as "smooth" sounding.


The R&D goal of this project was performance, weight savings, convenience feature(s) retention, and the highest quality at an affordable price point. That's what we're all about. And that's what you will get from Area P"

  Seemed germaine to this discussion. Steve
Title: Re: ZX-14 or ZX-14R Exhaust for a C-14?
Post by: Jim Snyder on February 08, 2017, 09:21:09 pm
Very good article Steve. I guess its fair to say that sometimes exhaust and performance research really is rocket science.
Title: Re: ZX-14 or ZX-14R Exhaust for a C-14?
Post by: MAN OF BLUES on February 08, 2017, 11:23:26 pm
after reading this all, and reflecting back to the laments of the "original" C10, when people were so wanting a single sided exhaust because the dual mufflers were both gaudy, and didn't sound good... I think back... Jim actually sent me one of his fabricated pipes that didn't fit under the plastic, which I had no problem with as I was developing the COGZIlla bike, without plastic... I also have an Ontario header, still unscathed and un used, for fitment onto my C10. I ended up years ago finding a set of SuperTrapp, dueal mufflers, that fit a Zee bike, and fit them up to my C10... they were Louad when the correct amount of "venting discs" were utilized to allow a flow that I found worked.., but still had that "dub-dub..dub-dub" sound I loathed from a dual exhaust bike... I always wanted a single muffler that would flow correctly, and provide a "buh-buh-buh-buh" sound, smoothly, and evenly... again, Jim sent me a nice offcast muffler he had sitting around, which still is in a box.. and will find its way onto COGZilla this year.. all this searching and such, for performance, has me still asking, why... WHY.. did Kaw go to a single muffler system on the C14? IMHO it was evident for torque purposes, and also plausable sound, nice but not annoying.

all the aftermarket slip ons, are nothing more than a muffler they already made, for a prior production bike, ( based on another production bike prior, and prior to that bike), and they tossed it out with adapters and said..."for the C14"..

none of these muffler manufacturers spent one second to manufacture a specific pipe, TUNED to the exhaust produced by the specific bike...
they just re-branded an existing universal piece of hardware, and "called it specific"

My hat is off to Jim, he really did spend a lot of time trying to adapt, and find something to "use" as a replacement for the old C10, but in essence, we all have to experiment, and make the best of it.
C14?
open the door for going backwards, and putting duals on.. we all biotched for 20+ years we couldn't get a decent single pipe.

go figure. :rotflmao: :rotflmao: :rotflmao: :rotflmao: :rotflmao:
Title: Re: ZX-14 or ZX-14R Exhaust for a C-14?
Post by: Jim Snyder on February 08, 2017, 11:50:27 pm
 
My hat is off to Jim, he really did spend a lot of time trying to adapt, and find something to "use" as a replacement for the old C10, but in essence, we all have to experiment, and make the best of it.
 :rotflmao: :rotflmao: :rotflmao: :rotflmao: :rotflmao:

Thank you MOB, It really was a labor of love (NOT) cutting and welding all of those pipe pieces and then scraping it and starting over.
and I still have a huge collection of header pieces cluttering my shop. The final prototype of the Contario exhaust is still on my silverbullet. I had it ceramic coated to make it last and it still looks and works great. But like you said experimentation is the key to any successful endeavor. And like I always told folks, don't tell me they "don't make one of those for your bike" cause that just makes me want to make one.
   
Title: Re: ZX-14 or ZX-14R Exhaust for a C-14?
Post by: Jim Snyder on February 09, 2017, 01:35:21 am
Ok time for a little reflection. We have to remember that tuning any motorcycle is never a one and done process. And many times
we take simple processes and turn them into difficult ones. You always have to remember that a motorcycle engine is what I like to
call an "air management system". Truthfully that is it in a nut shell. Of course there are other factors involved, fuel, heat, etc. but
we are talking about managing the flow of air through the engine from the air filter intake to the end of the muffler. The more efficiently that air moves through that engine the faster it will go, the more miles per gallon it will get, or the more torque or horsepower it will have. Sometimes we go off the beaten path and find things that work. Take Steve's two minute mod from several years ago. The idea he came up with went against every previously accepted theory of jetting we engine gurus were ever taught. But what happened? I'll tell you what happened it worked. I had a nickname for Steve's 2 min.mod, I called it C.A.M.S. (controlled airflow management system) Pretty catchy huh. Rather than forcing as much air into the engine as possible he controlled the flow and amount of air and made it work better than before. He is doing the same thing now with the C-14 ECU. The engineers at Kawasaki don't always get it right, atleast to our satisfaction that is. But there will always be those of us who push the envelope to see if we can build a better mouse trap. And sometimes the mouse is smarter than we are. But we still have to try right.     
Title: Re: ZX-14 or ZX-14R Exhaust for a C-14?
Post by: connie_rider on February 09, 2017, 02:51:45 pm
Thanks all.    "Good discussion"
 Steve, that is very interesting info!
 MOB, I also prefer a single muffler sound.
 Jim, you sed it all...

My original thought was block off one of the exhaust ports, and install a ZX-14R header on my Connie..
But, I thought,,, hmm,, I wonder why did Kawasaki and Suzuki both choose to put 2 mufflers on their biggest Sport Bikes?

And then, (while I wus thinkin') that "rotten' "Throttle8 sed;
   I see a SISF full Area P system flash with an EXUP churning in your head!!! If you build it--they will come!!
Followed by (an even more rotten) "Gpink", who sed;
    Ted, an interesting writeup....scroll down to the last section titled 'Variable Back-Pressure Exhaust'.

Which brings us to today.  :coffee2::smiley_confused1:

Ride safe, Ted
Title: Re: ZX-14 or ZX-14R Exhaust for a C-14?
Post by: connie_rider on February 10, 2017, 07:59:26 pm
Ok, another day, more thoughts.   :-[

Steve, MOB and Jim kinda made my point with their posts..
   (before you argue; Think about it)

This discussion is about using a ZX-14R exhaust on a C-14.
The ZX-14R exhaust has 2 mufflers..
    (Some like 2 mufflers, some prefer only 1)

If you choose to use the ZX-14R exhaust and use only 1 muffler.
To do this;
     You can; plug 1 exhaust port.
     You can; remove 1 exhaust port and modify that area to smooth the flow to the right muffler.
       (NOTE: If you do either of these, you "might" be restricting the ZX-14R exhaust too much to allow Max HP.)
"or" You can; install a SS valve (see below) and modify that valve to act as a 'Variable Back-Pressure Exhaust Valve'.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/NEW-Vacuum-Activated-Exhaust-Cutout-2-51MM-Close-Style-Pressure-about-1-BAR-/252699476181?hash=item3ad61000d5:g:zcsAAOSwux5YM-RB&vxp=mtr (http://www.ebay.com/itm/NEW-Vacuum-Activated-Exhaust-Cutout-2-51MM-Close-Style-Pressure-about-1-BAR-/252699476181?hash=item3ad61000d5:g:zcsAAOSwux5YM-RB&vxp=mtr)
To do this you must do a valve modification;
      Valve modification; * remove vacuum mechanism, and replace it with springs. (to hold the valve closed)
                                   * Select springs which will allow valve to open "only" at WOT and high RPM.
                                   * Add an Adjustable/Mechanical stop to limit how far valve opens. (mebbe 20%)

NOTE: If the 'Variable Back-Pressure Exhaust Valve' idea works(?)
         You can; (if you choose) install the second muffler behind the valve for looks/sound control.
         You can: allow the {20% opening} valve to exhaust out a short pipe under the bike.
                        {Sound control might be possible)

Thoughts??
        Let the flames begin!!!

Ride safe, Ted

PS: I fergot to say; (Matt's idea {I think})
If you choose to use the ZX-14R exhaust and use only 1 muffler.
     You can also; remove 1 exhaust port and modify that area to smooth the flow to the right muffler,
          "and/or" increase the diameter of the right port to give you more flow capability.
     
Title: Re: ZX-14 or ZX-14R Exhaust for a C-14?
Post by: Jim Snyder on February 10, 2017, 09:17:08 pm
Ok here is my thought. The ZX-14 pipe is larger than the C-14. Therefore theoretically it will have more flow than the C-14 pipe. With that in mind there would have to be enough excess flow and back pressure to open said relief valve at WOT. So with a larger header with increased flow characteristics as the ZX-14 pipe has the question is how to determine if there will be enough excess flow. I would hate to see you go through all of this and discover that the ZX pipe flowed so well out the right side thst it would not allow the valve to open. This is just a theory of course. Next.
Forgot to add that this would be even more relative with aftermarket mufflers which flow more freely than stockers.
Title: Re: ZX-14 or ZX-14R Exhaust for a C-14?
Post by: connie_rider on February 10, 2017, 10:03:37 pm
Jim, good point's!
      {Particularly about the different Mufflers}     :017:   hmmmmmmm   :sign0137:

I think it's relatively EZ to determine the effects.
   If someone that already has a ZX-14R system would ride to Steve's err someone's place where a dyno is located, and convince that person to do a few dyno runs.
   I'll supply a Port Plug with pressure gage, and might be convinced to buy lunch {or a beer or 3}

Possible Test Sequence;
Run #1; Remove 1 {left} muffler, plug the port, conduct a run and do a plot.. (while observing pressure)
       #2; Partially restrict right muffler, conduct a repeat run, and do a plot.. (while observing pressure)
          NOTE: Run's #1 and #2 could be conducted by simply blocking the left muffler. (But pressure could not be recorded)
       #3; Reinstall left muffler, conduct a run and do a plot..
       #4; Partially restrict both mufflers,  conduct a repeat run, and do a plot..

After runs; compare plots; to see if Torque/HP were effected by changes.
                compare pressures to see if they increased when restriction was added.

NOTE:  "Change" in Torque/HP/pressure/{if available}AFR is all we need to see.
           Ultimate HP/torque/AFR values are unimportant at this time.
            If we see plot/pressure change, we will know that Torque/HP was effected by the changes.
                   {Hopefully, in the way I suspect}

Ride safe, Ted
Title: Re: ZX-14 or ZX-14R Exhaust for a C-14?
Post by: cuda on February 11, 2017, 07:21:36 am
OH BOY! :41:
Title: Re: ZX-14 or ZX-14R Exhaust for a C-14?
Post by: gPink on February 11, 2017, 12:08:05 pm
The blue pill, Ted. Take the blue pill.  ;)
Title: Re: ZX-14 or ZX-14R Exhaust for a C-14?
Post by: connie_rider on February 11, 2017, 02:20:47 pm
Sorry guys. 
I was a research Tech for most of my career.
Part of that Career involved Dyno's and vehicle testing.

So when Jim asked, the question is how to determine if there will be enough excess flow. , my twisted mind spit out an answer.

Ride safe, Ted
Title: Re: ZX-14 or ZX-14R Exhaust for a C-14?
Post by: gPink on February 11, 2017, 02:26:43 pm
Don't be sorry ,Ted. We just don't want you to hurt yourself.  :beerchug:
Title: Re: ZX-14 or ZX-14R Exhaust for a C-14?
Post by: connie_rider on February 12, 2017, 11:38:58 pm
Ok, another day, more thoughts.   :??::

First of all, the lack of replies seem to indicate,
 Most think I'm out of my mind.
 Lot's don't think it will work and not worth talking about.
 Some, are thinking about it, and not getting involved.
 Many don't have a clue what I'm talking about . (or care)

Is anybody out there????

Ride safe, Ted
Title: Re: ZX-14 or ZX-14R Exhaust for a C-14?
Post by: The Pope on February 13, 2017, 10:58:16 am
Yes.... we are out here Ted....

Ok.... I haven't responded about this for a while, so here goes......

Ted, I don't think that this set-up will produce enough tangible results to warrant the cost, but I've been wrong before.

Now would I like to see what this set-up would do, yes. So if you want to chase this rabbit, I'll be there right along with you.

If for nothing else, a set-up with the valve to just dump the exhaust (straight pipe) would be nice when you're passing one of those "Loud Pipes Saves Lives" riders.

Ok here is my thought. The ZX-14 pipe is larger than the C-14. Therefore theoretically it will have more flow than the C-14 pipe. With that in mind there would have to be enough excess flow and back pressure to open said relief valve at WOT. So with a larger header with increased flow characteristics as the ZX-14 pipe has the question is how to determine if there will be enough excess flow. I would hate to see you go through all of this and discover that the ZX pipe flowed so well out the right side thst it would not allow the valve to open. This is just a theory of course. Next.
Forgot to add that this would be even more relative with aftermarket mufflers which flow more freely than stockers.
Jim, the ZX-14 will have more Volume than the C14. As for Flow, that's controlled more by the Velocity in of the exhaust. But yes, "if" the Velocity is high enough, a ZX14 exhaust will flow more than a C14's. Now the question would be "Is the Velocity within the C14's Exhaust high enough to take advantage of the Larger Volume of the ZX14's exhaust?". In the lower RPM's, I'd say no, but in the higher RPM's, maybe.

All in all, this is a good discussion, so carry on.  :great:

Title: Re: ZX-14 or ZX-14R Exhaust for a C-14?
Post by: Jim Snyder on February 13, 2017, 11:17:36 am

"Jim, the ZX-14 will have more Volume than the C-14. As for Flow, that's controlled more by the Velocity in of the exhaust. But yes, "if" the Velocity is high enough, a ZX-14 exhaust will flow more than a C-14's. Now the question would be "Is the Velocity within the C-14's Exhaust high enough to take advantage of the Larger Volume of the ZX-14's exhaust?". In the lower RPM's, I'd say no, but in the higher RPM's, maybe".
 

Thanks Mr. Pope, I misspoke what I meant to say was "the ZX-14 pipe will have more potential flow capacity" rather than it will have more flow. Carry on.
Title: Re: ZX-14 or ZX-14R Exhaust for a C-14?
Post by: connie_rider on February 14, 2017, 01:48:40 am
Good thoughts. I think ya'll got this, but here is another explanation of my madness...

For sake of discussion; I'll assume the 2013 ZX-14R will have similar flow characteristics to a  Full area P system.
                                      (The 2013 ZX-14R is a new design, with bigger head pipes, no Catalytic Converter, and a 2 chamber collector)
Points:
a} A Full Area P Systems flows thru 1 {2 1/4"} midpipe.
b} A ZG-1400 Exhaust flows thru 1 {2'} midpipe.
c} A ZX-14R header flows thru "2" {2'} midpipes.

I intend to restrict the ZX system by flowing thru only "1" {2'} midpipe .
The other will have a 'Variable Back-Pressure Exhaust Valve' {"VB-PEV"} to relieve that pressure..
                                                    Ain't that a catchy name!!!

I'm hoping the 2" Midpipe will help the ZX-14R headers keep {more torque at lower RPM's} and the "VB-PEV" will open "just enough" to give the system more flow when needed.  {hopefully, allowing more power at WOT/high RPM's}

ie; The 2" Midpipe should maintain back pressure at low/mid RPM's. {as it is more restrictive than the 2 1/4" Midpipe}.
     & If when proper springs are located, the valve will only open at WOT and high RPM's.
                   
Cost: The ZX-14R header can be found for under $100.
         A stock ZG muffler could be used.
         The "VB-PEV" Valve can be built for about $100.

Ride safe, Ted
Yea, I know.  I sed assume, if, maybe, hopefully, and should a LOT!!!   :confuse:
Title: Re: ZX-14 or ZX-14R Exhaust for a C-14?
Post by: The Pope on February 14, 2017, 10:34:36 am

Points:
a} A Full Area P Systems flows thru 1 {2 1/4"} midpipe.
b} A ZG-1400 Exhaust flows thru 1 {2"} midpipe.
c} A ZX-14R header flows thru 2 {2"} midpipes. <-- you should think of this as 1 {4"} midpipe


ie; The 4" Midpipe should will not maintain back pressure at low/mid RPM's. {as it is more less restrictive than the 2 1/4" Midpipe}.

I made a few (all though significant) changes to help you to better understand something that I feel that you may have overlooked/miscalculated.
Title: Re: ZX-14 or ZX-14R Exhaust for a C-14?
Post by: Jim Snyder on February 14, 2017, 11:21:21 am

Points:
a} A Full Area P Systems flows thru 1 {2 1/4"} midpipe.
b} A ZG-1400 Exhaust flows thru 1 {2"} midpipe.
c} A ZX-14R header flows thru 2 {2"} midpipes. <-- you should think of this as 1 {4"} midpipe


ie; The 4" Midpipe should will not maintain back pressure at low/mid RPM's. {as it is more less restrictive than the 2 1/4" Midpipe}.

I made a few (all though significant) changes to help you to better understand something that I feel that you may have overlooked/miscalculated.

I have to concur with the Pope on this one. With that much flow capacity I do not think there will be enough back pressure
to open the said valve. The only way to combat that would be with a more restrictive muffler which may defeat the purpose
of the experiment. But don't quote me on that.
Title: Re: ZX-14 or ZX-14R Exhaust for a C-14?
Post by: Steve in Sunny Fla on February 14, 2017, 11:48:52 am
I haven't followed every post, but if someone is floating the idea that pressure in the exhaust is going to be used to open the valve, like a poppet  / relief valve, that's absolutely not the way to go. In that scenario the pressure has to rise to a preset point and then would do what  -
1) open up and dump all the pressure?

2) maintain the pressure at the preset level?

 So either way you're building pressure, when you're trying to make power. not good.

  the issue that should be looked at at here is maintaining flow velocity at low throttle / flow settings, and having enough unrestricted volume flow at high throttle / flow settings. If a valve is used it should be activated not by exhaust backpressure, but by rpm/throttle position. and it needs to be determined on a dyno what that setting is. JMO, steve

Title: Re: ZX-14 or ZX-14R Exhaust for a C-14?
Post by: connie_rider on February 14, 2017, 05:49:55 pm
Again, all of you made good point's.
 Thank you for your input!
NOTE, {in all my replies} I'm not being a smart A__.
               I'm  just trying to explain what I'm thinking. {so ya'll can help me figure this out}  :great:
                  Please continue to question my thoughts and offer suggestions!!
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX

Pope and Jim, I agree with you. I think 2 (2" Dia.) midpipe's is overkill. [because the combined area of the 2 pipes is too great].
    That's why I sed; I intend to restrict the ZX system by flowing thru only "1" {2'} midpipe.

What you said, also gets back to the root of this idea.
    I think the guys that are running a ZX-14 system {with 2 Mufflers} on their Connie, may be giving up low end torque.
    ie;  "Because of the 2 - 2" pipes/mufflers", there is no restriction at lower RPM's and no back pressure..

By the way, 1 {4" dia. midpipe} is not an equal comparison with 2 {2" Dia. pipes} because the cross sectional area is "so" much greater.    Believe it or not, a single 2 7/8" dia. Midpipe is a closer comparison.  But 1 {2 7/8" dia. pipe} still has more cross sectional area than 2 {2" Dia.} midpipe's..
NOTE:  I have no idea how to calculate flow, so I'm using Square area as a comparison.
           ie; 1 {2" Dia.} pipes is 3.14 In2.  {1 stock Concours pipe}
                2 {2" Dia.} pipes is 6.28 In2.  {2 ZX-14 pipe's}
                1 {4" Dia.} pipe is 12.56 In2. 
                1 {2 7/8" Dia.} pipe is 6.49 In2. {approx. equal to {2 ZX-14 pipe's}}
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX

Steve, your points are very important in this idea. {and the hardest to determine}
On the first, I choose your answer #2) maintain the pressure at the preset level?
    I'm intentionally planning to maintain pressure because I think all exhaust systems have some internal pressure.
      (Particularly at WOT and high RPM). If adjusted right, the valve won't open until abut 6000-7000 rpm's.
    The valve wouldn't exactly maintain a set pressure, it would establish a opening pressure. {Might be as low as 1- 2 psi}.
   The problem is determining what the ideal pressure is, how to make it happen at WOT and high RPM's, and how much opening is required.  {See Reply #94 and "*Do you happen" / below}

On the second; I think 1 ea. - 2" dia  Midpipe attached to a ZX-14R system will have more flow velocity than the stock 2" dia Midpipe that is used on a ZG-14 system. And I'll be using the exact midpipe and muffler.
So, sufficient Flow velocity at low RPM's shouldn't be a problem.
  I think the ZX system itself,, will have more flow thana ZG system, because the head pipes/etc are larger and it does not have a catalytic converter.
  I think more pressure will occur, because the Flow Velocity is faster, "and" the 2" pipe will restrict it slightly as rpm's rise..

On the 3rd; Your correct. The opening should be controlled by rpm/throttle position.
                              But, I'm not smart enough to do that. 
                              The {temporary} spring controlled valve idea is the easiest/cheapest way to see if relieving the pressure at high rpm's will effect anything.
                               ie; It can be done to any ZX-14 Exhaust without removing the plastic, or doing extensive mod's.
                                    {Several weak springs can be used to adjust when and how far the valve opens}.

Your last point is an important part of my evil plan: it {valve opening} needs to be determined on a dyno what that setting is.
I totally agree with you!!!
     If, I build/supply this,
     If, someone already has a ZX-14 system on their bike, and is willing to make it available
     If, someone had access to several programs to try,
     and, if (someday) that someone has some spare time.
    A few Dyno runs could determine the spring adjustments, the amount of opening, and give us some numbers..

**Do you happen to know of anyone that has a Dyno and tuning skills??? >:D

Ride safe, Ted
Title: Re: ZX-14 or ZX-14R Exhaust for a C-14?
Post by: connie_rider on February 16, 2017, 01:03:59 am
Ok, another day, more thoughts.  >:D

Pope, you sed it RIGHT!
  ie; The 4" Midpipe should will not maintain back pressure at low/mid RPM's. {as it is more less restrictive than the 2 1/4" Midpipe}.
Jim, your there too; The only way to combat that would be with a more restrictive muffler

I'll start with; We've ignored the design of the ZX header itself because it is, what it is....
Here's my thoughts.

A ZX header is designed to give optimum performance at high rpm's.
   the ZX, Being a Sport Bike {Kawasaki gave up some low end torque to get more top end power}.

A ZG header is designed to give optimum performance at all rpm's.
   the ZG, being a Sport Tourer {Kawasaki worked harder to keep more low end torque}.
         Being a COGger,,, I want more top end power "without" giving up low end torque!!

I'm thinking that Kawasaki helped determine the different power bands;
                          by putting 1 - 2" midpipe/muffler on a ZG.
                          by putting 2 - 2" midpipe's/muffler's on a ZX.

Steve: you said,  So either way you're building pressure, when you're trying to make power. not good.
Again, your right, but the idea here is not to build too much pressure, the idea is to develop a way to control how much pressure is built, and when.

NOTE: During this whole thing we've talked about increasing or decreasing flow.
We're not exactly doing that.  An engine is an air pump and only flows "x" amount of air at a given rpm.
We're not increasing or decreasing that.   What we're doing is trying to control the resistance to flow.
ie; With the 'Variable Back-Pressure Exhaust Valve', I'm hoping to keep the resistance at low RPM's equal to a ZG, and the resistance at high RPM's equal to a ZX..

Hopefully, that's clear as mud?
Let the flames begin.

Ride safe, Ted

PS: All the bike manufacturers use an EXUP valve to restrict flow at low rpm's and {with a computer} open that valve at high RPM's. This just another way of accomplishing the same thing. 
Title: Re: ZX-14 or ZX-14R Exhaust for a C-14?
Post by: Steve in Sunny Fla on February 16, 2017, 01:11:16 am
Ted, you are confusing some issues. Back pressure works at low rpm to help stall some of the fresh charge running right out the exhaust during the overlap period, thereby lessening cylinder pressure and thereby torque. When you're full tilt, WFO when the cam timing is in it's zone, you don't want backpressure; at that point you want scavenging at it's fullest. At this point scavenging will help build cylinder vacuum and get the incoming chage moveing in more quickly and with a stronger flow. this can actually build over 100% VE if the scavenging is doing it's job. You need to get away from this idea of having backpressure when you're trying to make power, or the backpressure is going to prevent you from building the power the rest of the combo will be capable of. steve
Title: Re: ZX-14 or ZX-14R Exhaust for a C-14?
Post by: connie_rider on February 16, 2017, 03:18:55 am
Thanks for replying.
I follow you, and agree to what you said.

But, I don't think your following my thoughts.

I'm trying to match the back pressure of a ZG at low/mid RPM's, and prevent "excessive" pressure at high rpm's.

As I sed;
I think 2 - 2" mufflers allow too much flow to give good low/mid range power.
To match ZG low/mid RPM resistance, I'm installing only 1 ZG muffler.
   I think that single {2"} muffler will work like a Stock single ZG muffler, and allow low/mid range torque.
   But, I think that single muffler {on a ZX header} will be too restrictive at WOT/high RPM's.


So, I'm adding a valve {*with a small/weak spring} that will stay closed at low rpm's, and open / decrease pressure at WOT/high RPM's.
*I think a weak spring can be located that is resistant to low/mid range pressure, but will open when I want it to. {at WOT/high RPM's}
  I agree that when open, it will maintain some resistance/back pressure.
   But "that" resistance/back pressure will be less that flowing thru only 1 muffler.

NOTE: If (Pope and Jim are correct) and the single ZG muffler is big enough to handle all the flow at WOT/high RPM's, the valve will never open, regardless of how small of spring I use. It would only open if the single muffler is too small for full flow...

If it works, {and we actually see any improvement}, the next step would be to measure that opening, and then find a way to open the valve the same amount {or a bit more} electronically.

Ride safe, Ted
Title: Re: ZX-14 or ZX-14R Exhaust for a C-14?
Post by: Fais on February 16, 2017, 04:45:58 am
As much as I love tinkering and admire your readiness to put time into this - something says that if 2 weeks delivering pizzas earns an AreaP then just get that Ford smelling like pepperoni for 2 weeks and be done with it :D 

I have questions(!)

What the heck are you talking about? An external valve that allows more exhaust to exit the muffler?

I usually imagine valves in the mid pipe somewhere operating similarly to our secondary butterflies. Usually used in cars to lower sound levels until go time. Figured you were into that to maintain some low end with 2 pipes. But I'm thinking you want to use one to purge more exhaust out of the entire system? If I am on track then I have more questions . . . (!)
Title: Re: ZX-14 or ZX-14R Exhaust for a C-14?
Post by: Jim Snyder on February 16, 2017, 12:08:26 pm
Ted,
  I have another suggestion. You have an awesome motorcycle with more power than can be used responsibly. Stop stressing yourself out over this and just go riding. Your header you have with the muffler you have sounds awesome and as mentioned you have more power with the new flash than you will ever need. I'm not trying to discourage you (well maybe I am) but get out there and enjoy the ride my friend. You worked all of your life to get to this retirement thing so get out there on the road and enjoy it.  :beerchug:   
Title: Re: ZX-14 or ZX-14R Exhaust for a C-14?
Post by: connie_rider on February 16, 2017, 12:24:56 pm
Fais, your right. Easier to just buy the Full Area P.
Just bouncing an idea around..

What the heck are you talking about? An external valve that allows more exhaust to exit the muffler header?
Yes, but I want the valve to open only when more flow is needed.

I usually imagine valves in the mid pipe somewhere operating similarly to our secondary butterflies. Usually used in cars to lower sound levels until go time. Figured you were into that to maintain some low end with 2 pipes. But I'm thinking you want to use one to purge more exhaust out of the entire system?

Yes again.
I'm thinking 1 muffler is better for low rpm's. But additional flow is needed at WOT/high RPM's.
The thought; At WOT, 1 muffler may be too small to handle the flow. If so, pressure would increase inside of the system.
     If that happens, the valve would sense the increase in pressure and open to decrease/purge that excessive pressure.

Jim, your right too. Should probably just forget about it and go ride.
          But, I like trying to figure out how to make something work. Part of that enjoyment is discussing what-if's..

Ride safe, Ted
Title: Re: ZX-14 or ZX-14R Exhaust for a C-14?
Post by: Steve in Sunny Fla on February 16, 2017, 12:38:31 pm
Ted I get what you're up to, But pretty soon you're gonna have to stop postulating and get to cutting and welding.

 Before you do though, i want you to watch this video. think of issues like "scavenging" and "backpressure"  and "maximizing cylinder pressure".... Steve

   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NekTRPx68zs (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NekTRPx68zs)
Title: Re: ZX-14 or ZX-14R Exhaust for a C-14?
Post by: Jim Snyder on February 16, 2017, 01:04:16 pm
Ted I get what you're up to, But pretty soon you're gonna have to stop postulating and get to cutting and welding.

 Before you do though, i want you to watch this video. think of issues like "scavenging" and "backpressure"  and "maximizing cylinder pressure".... Steve

   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NekTRPx68zs (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NekTRPx68zs)

WOW, those videos are awesome Steve. I also watched the one about No More Exhaust Myths and it explained in detail why
my 4 into 2 into 1 worked to increase torque.  Great youtube find my friend.
Title: Re: ZX-14 or ZX-14R Exhaust for a C-14?
Post by: connie_rider on February 16, 2017, 03:03:13 pm
Thanks Steve. Great Video.
After watching it, I scanned a few more and found even more good info.
I (better) follow your reasoning on Scavenging..
1 of the video's said "0" PSI is the ideal exhaust manifold pressure, with 2 psi being the max pressure.
    (In a car at 3000 RPM's)
I've been guessing 1-2 psi for the pressure my valve opens. (So my guess was pretty close)
   (Relatively EZ to reduce that opening pressure).
(Jim: I wasn't able to find your No More Exhaust Myths video yet. Send it to me if you can).

Your right that I eventually have to start cutting and welding.
My plan is to do that after Cliffs Ride. (April)
  Until then I'm keeping the stock exhaust on the bike so I can enjoy your new EVO Flash.

While I'm waiting for that date, I'm thinking/talking (too much), trying options, some fabricating, and ordering parts.
  The headers are here and modified for an oxygen sensor. {For AFR during dyno runs}
  Plug for total blockage of the left Port has been machined. {for pressure testing}
  EXUP Valve motor came in, was disassembled, studied, and deemed too difficult to use.
  SS valve (located by Jim) has been ordered. {coming on a Slow boat from China}
  Looking for a set of ZX stock mufflers to use in the test.
   {Getting a set of stock ZX-1400 mufflers from Rasmith}

NOTE: I was up early this morning packing to do some of what Jim suggested. (Get away from this house and go to the Ranch).
          NOTE: I would go riding, but I absolutely HATE riding alone, and all my friends still have to work for a living.
          Going to push myself away from this computer now and head out.
          I'll be back on Sunday.

Ride safe, Ted
Title: Re: ZX-14 or ZX-14R Exhaust for a C-14?
Post by: smithr1 on February 16, 2017, 03:37:42 pm
Morning Ted,
I was out yesterday and did not look into this till now.

I would opt to go the electric control route over the spring control.  Why?  Because force is constant.  If you need force to open the valve it will equal the force there before.  In other words the back pressure before the butterfly could be the same.

You could use a pressure sensor on the variable vacuum port to sense a level of pressure to open the valve at but you would need an electronic circuit that is adjustable to be able to tune where you want it to trigger the valve to open.

A micro switch may be the best option.  As the throttle control passes a point it just triggers a solenoid to open the valve.  Opening time is set by where on the throw the switch gets hit.

I have seen a couple cars that have butterfly valves in the air intake.  Usually not good for use in exhaust but I have seen one used on a pipe between the exhaust header and the air intake to help warm the intake air until the engine is warm.  That may be a place to look.

I feel you are going to have a hard time not causing turbulence with the bf valve in the path.  It may end up causing as much back pressure as you are trying to eliminate.  It really is down to experimentation and that can only really learn you something if you have the right equipment at easy access.  Trying to send a proto to someone in Fl to have Steve do a Dyno seems counter productive.
Enjoy!
Title: Re: ZX-14 or ZX-14R Exhaust for a C-14?
Post by: Steve in Sunny Fla on February 16, 2017, 03:52:28 pm
Here's another one. if you don't watch anything else, watch from about 7:30 to 8:45 or so.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3zfLnOnnW2A (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3zfLnOnnW2A)

Steve
Title: Re: ZX-14 or ZX-14R Exhaust for a C-14?
Post by: mattchewn on February 16, 2017, 09:52:38 pm
Ted,
YOU SUCK!  just had to get that out there first.    :nananana:

All this postulating and postulating about exhausts and flow has driven me to the edge again. I am on the waiting list for the next shipment of FULL AREA P BABY!! No more of this halfway there garbage, gimme the big bang and the, Oh soooo sweet, Area P music once more.

SISF,
Be ready for the second round of ECU flashing for my bike! SCOTTY, I NEED MORE POWER!!


 >:D >:D >:D >:D >:D >:D >:D >:D >:D >:D >:D


Matt
 
Title: Re: ZX-14 or ZX-14R Exhaust for a C-14?
Post by: Fais on February 16, 2017, 11:03:33 pm
Man i remember blasting by you leaving Steve's. I was on your newly flashed AreaP bike and you were on mine. You came by me playing the air violin 🎻 it sounded so sweet! I follow John around Knoxville and the full system has a serious growl. It's a pretty great sound.

You'll be glad to have that back  :motonoises:

Title: Re: ZX-14 or ZX-14R Exhaust for a C-14?
Post by: connie_rider on February 20, 2017, 07:18:11 pm
Ok, back from the Ranch and see you've been posting some replies while I was away.

Steve; Great Video. I watched it before I left, and again today.  {paid particular attention to the segment your noted and I agree completely}   Believe it or not, I'm attempting to do exactly what he stated. {reduce back pressure}
          I realize the spring is not the ideal, it is a initial way to see if a valve will have any effect.
           {ie: if the valve doesn't open,,, there is no back pressure and 1 Muffler is fine}
                  if the valve does open,,, 1 muffler is too restrictive.
                  "The BIG if; if the valve does open, I keep {ZG like} low end and also gain (ZX-like}Top end power
                          {I'm on the right track and can maybe move to an electronically controlled valve}

Bob, you hit everything petty close. Electronic control/operation is best. The spring valve is a step towards that. {see above}
                  Read our earlier notes; At that time I wasn't smart e'nuff to figure out how to control the valve electronically, and I couldn't locate a valve..
                 Micro-switch will work, but I think it has to be in series with another sensor of some type. {RPM/Pressure/Other?}
                 The reason for 2 is; I want WOT, "and" high rpm opening only.
                   NOTE; The valve I have ordered is vacuum operated.
                             The vacuum portion can be replaced with a solenoid.

Matt: YOU SUCK TOO!  {had to get that out there as well}    :nananana:
         Since we both think the other guy sucks, we can treat each other as equals.  :-\
             ie; you can help me figure this out.   :sign0085:


  Just want you to know... I'm Really Happy you have your new exhaust on order.   
             I know you like the power it gives you.

  * Personally, I'm so good, I don't need all that power to make me look good...    :nananana:
          (and I get to keep "my" license)     :-[


Fais/Twin;   I are confused.. Who passed who?
          *  i remember blasting by you
          ** You came by me

Ride safe, Ted

PS: I hope everyone understands that Matt and I are just picking on one another.
      I know I'm not as good of rider, and he is more of a mechanic.
         My riding style is more "Old and Slow". And I'm a theory guy, not Chief Mechanic.
           Luckily, I "ARE" better looking..
Title: Re: ZX-14 or ZX-14R Exhaust for a C-14?
Post by: Fais on February 20, 2017, 10:14:31 pm
^^^^ Both are true!

He wanted to hear his bike so I blew past him while riding his bike; he was on mine. I wanted to keep my license so I slowed back down and he came by me playing the air violin. Must have sounded sweet.

I can say it felt pretty sweeeeeeet! Luckily, I don't have the craving for that. Before Steve's flash I said the AreaP had lag time and I didn't like it. Well, that excuse doesn't work anymore. I just finally am happy with a slip-on and a flash and can say I don't ALWAYS have to part with every possible penny (just usually). Ted, I'll be waiting to see this ZXr set-up with extra exhaust valve once i can picture where the valve will be. Can it be on the end cap so exhaust still exits the rear - or ?? Where else?







Title: Re: ZX-14 or ZX-14R Exhaust for a C-14?
Post by: connie_rider on February 21, 2017, 01:52:33 am
Ahh, now I comprehend...
I agree, both DO sound sweet when their wound up!

Below is a ZX-14R Exhaust. {open it}
On the photo's at the bottom; click to the next to last photo {you will see 2 Header exhaust ports at the rear of the header}.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/12-15-KAWASAKI-NINJA-ZX14-ZX14R-EXHAUST-HEADERS-OEM/152112234050?_trksid=p2047675.c100011.m1850&_trkparms=aid%3D222007%26algo%3DSIC.MBE%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D20140602152332%26meid%3D98b0ed274be44d698651d715fa5fe7cc%26pid%3D100011%26rk%3D2%26rkt%3D7%26sd%3D111820733387 (http://www.ebay.com/itm/12-15-KAWASAKI-NINJA-ZX14-ZX14R-EXHAUST-HEADERS-OEM/152112234050?_trksid=p2047675.c100011.m1850&_trkparms=aid%3D222007%26algo%3DSIC.MBE%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D20140602152332%26meid%3D98b0ed274be44d698651d715fa5fe7cc%26pid%3D100011%26rk%3D2%26rkt%3D7%26sd%3D111820733387)

Both ZX exhaust ports are 2 1/8" O.D.  x  2" long.
I will remove 1" from the left port (upper in the photo) and install the valve there.
          {The valve will be "in" the same location as the 1" I removed}.

In order to do this;
      I will weld a 1" long section of 2 1/8" I.D. pipe "before" the valve.
              (that pipe will fit over the modified left exhaust port)
      I will also weld a 1 1/2"  long section of 2" I.D. {2 1/8" OD} pipe "after" the valve.
        (A stock ZX {left} muffler {or mid-pipe} would slip over that 1 1/2" long section of pipe) 
        When finished the left muffler would fit in exactly the same location as a std ZX {left} muffler.

A stock {right side} ZX muffler will be installed on the right side of the bike..
When installed that muffler will fit in exactly the same location as a std ZX {right} muffler.

NOTE:  For initial tests; {I don't have a set of ZX mufflers yet}
                                  On the right side, I'll use my Area P Slip-On or a stock ZG Muffler. 
                                  On the left: I do not {initially} plan to install a left muffler.   >:D
                                    Instead, I'll install a 3" long section of "open" pipe. {with a turndown tip}
                                    {Reason; With it in place, I can hear when/if the valve opens while riding}.
                                 The entire {left} valve and open pipe/turndown will be located under the belly of the bike. (unseen)           

            Until the valve opens, all the exhaust flow will go out the right muffler. {just like a stock C-14}
            If enough pressure is developed at WOT/High RPM's, the valve will open and things should get noticeably louder. <evil grin>

Ride safe, Ted
Title: Re: ZX-14 or ZX-14R Exhaust for a C-14?
Post by: connie_rider on February 21, 2017, 04:37:48 pm
Previously I sed;   Until the valve opens, all the exhaust flow will go out the right muffler. {just like a stock C-14}
  "If" enough pressure is developed at WOT/High RPM's, the valve will open and things should get noticeably louder. <evil grin>

NOTE: The single ZX-14R Header and Area P Slip-On will flow more than a stock ZG Exhaust/muffler system.
           So the "if" is a big "if" as it may never back pressure. {to open a valve}

Ride safe, Ted

Another,,,  I sed earlier;
PS: I hope everyone understands that Matt and I are just picking on one another.
      I know I'm not as good of rider, and he is more of a mechanic.
         My riding style is more "Old and Slow". And I'm a theory guy, not Chief Mechanic.
           Luckily, I "ARE" better looking..
Title: Re: ZX-14 or ZX-14R Exhaust for a C-14?
Post by: Fais on February 21, 2017, 05:51:04 pm
Not concerned with turbulence?

 
Title: Re: ZX-14 or ZX-14R Exhaust for a C-14?
Post by: mattchewn on February 21, 2017, 06:54:56 pm
Not concerned with turbulence?
Fais,
there won't be much turbulence on Teds' bike. he never makes it into 2nd gear..   :nananana:
Barely a light breeze i'd say!

Matt
Title: Re: ZX-14 or ZX-14R Exhaust for a C-14?
Post by: connie_rider on February 21, 2017, 10:16:42 pm
Matt, your back!   I wuz afraid I'd scared you away with the {Painful but true} I'm better looking note.   :P

Back to your note; You know good and well I do get into the higher gears.
Problem is, I've been known to get into the higher gears, before I have much speed.
 So {unlike you} I don't need top end POWER, as much as I need low end TORQUE!!
  (PS: {Occasionally} I do have a wild hair and wind her up.)
           On those rare occasions, I want some of your top end power...

Fais/Twin: Thank you for your notes. They are helping me refine my idea.
Yes; I'm concerned with turbulence.     
When the valve is closed and all the flow is going thru the single/right muffler, I think turbulence will develop inside the collector {at the bottom of the left port}.
As flow increases I think that turbulence will cause back pressure.

I have plans to smooth the flow across that area.
    (** Not sure of details yet as I need the valve to determine that step, below is a partial explanation).

I'm hoping that when the valve opens,,,, that turbulence {and some of the total flow} will move out the left port.
I'm not particularly concerned with turbulence at the valve itself, because the flow will be minimal.
  {If turbulence/pressure increases at the valve, it will adjust for it by opening more}. [I hope]  :-[

Attached is a Back Pressure video of an X pipe. View it and see the different flow characteristics at low and high flow.
      The flow thru the collector and into the ports of this header are similar to an X pipe.
       {on this header, the collector is divided into two separate tubes by a dividing plate, and the flow exits thru 2 ports}
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Naq5Bcl7z-E (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Naq5Bcl7z-E)

** My plan is to smooth the flow by placing a plate at the "bottom" of the left port.
  {That plate will direct flow to the right port and {somehow?} allow pressure and some flow to pass thru the plate when the valve opens}

Yes, I know I'm out of my mind.
    But, I'm having fun.

Ride safe, Ted
Title: Re: ZX-14 or ZX-14R Exhaust for a C-14?
Post by: Fais on February 22, 2017, 12:31:16 pm
I think you are in your mind. SittIng around watching Judge Judy and The Today Show woukd likely drive you out of your mind  :rotflmao:

Ill be in the garagae today too - check out the track day thread between drawing up your mad plans(!)


 :beerchug:
Title: Re: ZX-14 or ZX-14R Exhaust for a C-14?
Post by: connie_rider on February 22, 2017, 02:56:34 pm
Judge Judy and the Today Show aren't that bad.
But, Judy insists on the Soap Opera's.
   Those make me crazy!
      {Luckily I can lust after the actresses on them}.  :great:

Today, I'm gonna do yard work... ughhhhh :-[

I've been watching many of the YouTube video's on exhaust and backpressure.
As Steve said, too much back pressure is bad.
But, too little can be worse. {because it kills power too. Particularly low end power}.

My mission is to find the ideal...   >:D

Ride safe, Ted

PS: Enjoy the track day!!    I really wish I could be there!
      Hans and Gretcherin arrive the day after, and I need to stay home {to get everything ready for their arrival}.
Title: Re: ZX-14 or ZX-14R Exhaust for a C-14?
Post by: Steve in Sunny Fla on February 22, 2017, 03:24:33 pm


I've been watching many of the YouTube video's on exhaust and backpressure.
As Steve said, too much back pressure is bad.
But, too little can be worse. {because it kills power too. Particularly low end power}.


  Well that's not exactly what I said, and I think the distinction matters. ANY back pressure when you're trying to maximize power is bad. Steve
Title: Re: ZX-14 or ZX-14R Exhaust for a C-14?
Post by: Steve in Sunny Fla on February 22, 2017, 03:26:24 pm
Ted, since you have the time, explore the concept of passive egr because of low exhaust flow velocity. Steve
Title: Re: ZX-14 or ZX-14R Exhaust for a C-14?
Post by: connie_rider on February 22, 2017, 03:54:30 pm
Will do.
Not exactly sure where/how to find it?
Hints?

Ride safe, Ted
Title: Re: ZX-14 or ZX-14R Exhaust for a C-14?
Post by: Steve in Sunny Fla on February 22, 2017, 03:56:21 pm
Will do.
Not exactly sure where/how to find it?
Hints?

Ride safe, Ted

 google maybe... or read all the technical engine building / tuning books i've read over the last 30+ years - Steve
Title: Re: ZX-14 or ZX-14R Exhaust for a C-14?
Post by: Steve in Sunny Fla on February 22, 2017, 04:55:27 pm
motor controlled electric cutout

 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tPci1o6iiCE (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tPci1o6iiCE)

Steve

Title: Re: ZX-14 or ZX-14R Exhaust for a C-14?
Post by: Steve in Sunny Fla on February 22, 2017, 05:18:35 pm
Typical harley guys... using Teds idea to make more noise. Sheesh.

   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AOM0yhEEQcg (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AOM0yhEEQcg)

Steve
Title: Re: ZX-14 or ZX-14R Exhaust for a C-14?
Post by: connie_rider on February 22, 2017, 06:31:17 pm
Steve, I'll never get that far.
I admit, I'm not a tuner, I'm a parts changer/fabricator.
Not looking to maximize power. Looking to improve power over the power band.
ie; Hope to install a ZX header, keep similar low end of a  stock ZG and gain some top end with the ZX header.
    My thought is use only 1 muffler {to help maintain torque},
       and use the valve {to open if more flow is needed at WOT/high RPM}
    The spring controlled valve is being used temporarily; for ease of installation, and to let me know if back pressure is
      developed by the single muffler.
   If I see indications of improved power,,, the spring will be replaced with an electric Solenoid.

This is similar concept to what parts changers do when they buy a Area P Full system.
  They bolt on the new system and gain some power. (Improved but not optimum)
   You've been able to adjust the ECU with your Flash {on the Full Area P / etc} to optimize the performance.

Here is the valve I ordered.
Note: A solenoid can eventually fit where the vacuum port is setting.
          http://www.ebay.com/itm/262855594366 (http://www.ebay.com/itm/262855594366)

Ride safe, Ted

PS: The video's posted are where I started when I was looking for a valve.
      These systems dump flow, but do not control how much is dumped.
      I hope to determine how much should be dumped.
Title: Re: ZX-14 or ZX-14R Exhaust for a C-14?
Post by: Steve in Sunny Fla on February 22, 2017, 06:37:51 pm
  " Not looking to maximize power. Looking to improve power over the power band."

Ted - to me it's not semantics, I feel that if you're going to improve something, you ought to try to maximize the gains. So in my mind maximizing in this case doesn't just mean top end, though that is what I was referring to a couple posts back. I mean seriously, if you're gonna do it, do it right. explore all the power gains. You have time between Judge Judy and Dr Phil  ;) (are those shows even still on?) Steve
Title: Re: ZX-14 or ZX-14R Exhaust for a C-14?
Post by: cuda on February 22, 2017, 11:26:41 pm
Judge Judy has a penthouse in town

She makes serious money ...

Why,  I'll never know.


Title: Re: ZX-14 or ZX-14R Exhaust for a C-14?
Post by: connie_rider on February 22, 2017, 11:58:38 pm
I agree with you Steve and will do all I can to get the power curve I want.
What I meant was I'm not concerned with peak HP as much as smooth usable power.
NOTE:  I'll tune it to my optimum.
           I realize that my optimum is not your optimum, {as I don't have your experience and equipment}

Right now, all I can do is do research, develop plans, discuss Idea's, and order parts.
I've already done all the machining I can.
Some material for the lathe and the valve is currently on order.
As soon as the valve arrives, I machine the steel, and find a way to mount it, and then I get to figure out how to make it operate.

At some point, I'll install the header, and start tinkering there.
  Step 1 is determining if 1 muffler is better or worse than 2 mufflers.
    Assuming I need more flow at WOT/High RPM's,,
  Step 2 is finding out if I can make a valve open when I want it to.
  Step 3 is adjustments.
  Step 4 or 5, or 6, or etc,,, is where I can start final improvement's.

Until then, I plan to ride the bike to a few rallies with your new Evo Flash.

Ride safe, Ted

Yes Judge Judy and Dr Phil are on every day. <gloom>
Judy watches them daily and wants me there with her..  :-[
   I hide at the computer {writing long notes}, in the garage {tinkering}, and I even occasionally go for a ride.

Title: Re: ZX-14 or ZX-14R Exhaust for a C-14?
Post by: Grendel on February 25, 2017, 05:11:09 am
Would a PCV with the auto tune addon be able to read the difference in pressure and auto modify the A/F ratio to keep everything stable?  I'm not sure how well the PCV is with automatically adjusting the fuel map on the fly, or if it's a horrible idea outright and it should be tuned on a dyno and that's that.

Ryan
Title: Re: ZX-14 or ZX-14R Exhaust for a C-14?
Post by: connie_rider on February 25, 2017, 01:57:10 pm
I don't know anything about a PCV/Autotune, and don't plan to go that way.
I'm looking for a mod that others could do on the cheap.
Hoping that one of Steve's Flashes work with the ZX-14R exhaust.

Right now, I have his Evo Flash. It's tuned to keep smooth low end (etc) power..
I love it!!!
But I suspect his Full Area P Flash would be a closer match.
Will find out someday...

Back Pressure Discussion thought.
My son recently removed his stock exhaust and installed a Gibson Cat-back system on his 2014 GMC Truck.
Truck goes like stink after the install but he mentioned he gave up some low end torque and didn't like the sound when cruising.
Told me that many in his group, go back and reinstall "the valve" to get the torque back..
I thought "VALVE"????  I looked at his old system to understand what he was talking about...
Turns out that GM Trucks have a spring controlled butterfly valve in the system.
That valve controls all flow thru the system at all times.
{I think it mostly comes into play when the truck drops back to 4 cylinder cruising}

Thoughts??

Ride safe, Ted
Title: Re: ZX-14 or ZX-14R Exhaust for a C-14?
Post by: connie_rider on February 28, 2017, 07:50:40 pm
Back Pressure Discussion thought.
My son recently removed his stock exhaust and installed a Gibson Cat-back system on his 2014 GMC Truck.
Truck goes like stink after the install but he mentioned he gave up some low end torque and didn't like the sound when cruising.
Told me that many in his group, go back and reinstall "the valve" to get the torque back..
I thought "VALVE"????  I looked at his old system to understand what he was talking about...
Turns out that GM Trucks have a spring controlled butterfly valve in the system.
That valve controls all flow thru the system at all times.
{I think it mostly comes into play when the truck drops back to 4 cylinder cruising}

This morning, Aaron had the valve re-installed in his exhaust system.
Installed it just before the muffler.

He said torque and drivability immediately improved....

Not sure about WOT yet, but seems to be the same...

Ride safe, Ted

Title: Re: ZX-14 or ZX-14R Exhaust for a C-14?
Post by: Rasmith on February 28, 2017, 09:03:52 pm
A lot of posts to go through so I'm just posting this without going through the history of this thread Ted.

I have 2008 ZX14 Headers. These have slightly larger tubes. It does have a CAT.
I had the 2008 Mufflers but didn't like all the chrome so went with a new set of 2014 ZX14R take-offs. I didn't notice any performance gains which met my expectations. What I didn't expect was how much smoother it feels.

Center Stand foot peg is a clearance issue and needs to be addressed.
Unfortunately I understand Muzzy is not around so the remade center stand and left hanger may be a challenge to get.

Steve, I was planning on the evolution flash but not sure if this configuration meets your specs.
Title: Re: ZX-14 or ZX-14R Exhaust for a C-14?
Post by: Fais on April 06, 2017, 01:57:51 am
Ted's been playing in the garage again ....

(http://i296.photobucket.com/albums/mm186/SECOG/IMG_7477_zpswmtavnyc.jpg) (http://s296.photobucket.com/user/SECOG/media/IMG_7477_zpswmtavnyc.jpg.html)

-

(http://i296.photobucket.com/albums/mm186/SECOG/IMG_7478_zpstpvkzwpi.jpg) (http://s296.photobucket.com/user/SECOG/media/IMG_7478_zpstpvkzwpi.jpg.html)
Title: Re: ZX-14 or ZX-14R Exhaust for a C-14?
Post by: connie_rider on April 06, 2017, 02:34:33 am
Machined the adapter and valve.
Installed them on the left exhaust port.

Ride safe, Ted
Title: Re: ZX-14 or ZX-14R Exhaust for a C-14?
Post by: connie_rider on May 01, 2017, 04:08:40 pm
New discovery.
I picked up the ZX-14 Mufflers from Rasmith. {to install for this test}
After I got them home, I discovered that they don't fit the exhaust ports on my (2012 ZX-14R) headers.

Apparently, Kawasaki made the exhaust ports larger. (Starting in 2012).
          2006 - 2011: O.D. is 2" (??)
          2012 - 2017: O.D. is 2 1/8"

I also discovered; that the I.D. of Rasmith's (2008 ZX-14) muffler :'(are too small. NOT the muffler itself.
                           So, I can install C-14 or 2014-2017 ZX-14R gaskets {in the 2008 mufflers} to solve the problem.
                           &  {If I build this and opt not to use a Left Muffler}, I can use my Area P Slip-On for the right side..

Ride safe, Ted

UPDATE: The set of ZX-14 mufflers were offered by Rick Davis (Rasmith) to raise $$ for OtP.
             I was working on installing ZX-14R headers' on my bike, so I bought them.
               {I sent the $$ to "OtP" donations}...

             It appears that I don't need to use Rasmith's 2008 ZX-14 Mufflers.
              So,  If someone else is interested in the Mufflers, contact me. 
                 I'll sell them for a $100+ donation to "OtP". (plus shipping)
                 These mufflers are the chrome 2008 ZX-14 Mufflers.
                 They look like new!!!
Title: Re: ZX-14 or ZX-14R Exhaust for a C-14?
Post by: gPink on May 01, 2017, 04:17:12 pm
So how many cats are you going to run?
Title: Re: ZX-14 or ZX-14R Exhaust for a C-14?
Post by: connie_rider on May 01, 2017, 04:34:10 pm
So, how many cats are you going to run?

None;
   The 2012 ZX-14R Headers do not have Cat's...
   Plan A: The 2008 ZX-14 mufflers do not have Cat's...
   Plan B: My {ZG-1400} Area P Slip-On does not have Cat's..

Rasmith has 2008 ZX-14 headers with Cats on his bike,,, and some black ZX-14 Mufflers that (I think) might also have Cats.
He may have 3 Cat's??   Sed it runs fine...

Ride safe, Ted
Title: Re: ZX-14 or ZX-14R Exhaust for a C-14?
Post by: gPink on May 01, 2017, 04:49:16 pm
Thanks, that's what I was wondering.
Title: Re: ZX-14 or ZX-14R Exhaust for a C-14?
Post by: connie_rider on May 01, 2017, 04:57:46 pm
Still seeking information;
    Has anyone preformed Dyno Runs on their Connie after installing ZX-14 headers??

As I understand; Several have installed the Headers (and think it runs better), but none of preformed Dyno Runs?

Ride safe, Ted
Title: Re: ZX-14 or ZX-14R Exhaust for a C-14?
Post by: connie_rider on May 01, 2017, 05:06:46 pm
New numbers;   (someone please confirm my dia's)
 Earlier ZX-14
 Entire head pipe dia is (1 1/2") {38 mm}
 Exhaust port dia (x2) is (2 1/8") {approx. 54 mm} (2") {approx. 51 mm} {??}
   2006 - 2007 No Catalytic Converter.
   2008 - 2011 has a Catalytic converter.
   

ZX-14R: (2012 to current)
 Head pipe dia "at" the Flange is (1 1/2") {38 mm}
    Head pipe dia @ 2" below the Flange, increases to (1 11/16") {43 mm}
 Exhaust port dia (x2) is (2 1/8") {54 mm}
 No Catalytic converter.   (Converters were in each muffler)

ZG-14 (Concours)
 Entire head pipe dia is (1 3/8") {35 mm}
 (2008-current) Exhaust port dia (x1) is (2 1/8") {54 mm}
 Has Catalytic converter.

Full Area P System {FAPS}
  Head pipe dia at the Flange is (1 1/2") {38 mm}
  Head pipe dia from below the Flange, expands to (1.730" {approx. 1 23/32"}) {44 mm}
 Exhaust port dia (x1) is approx. (2 1/4") {57 mm}
 No Catalytic converter.

Can someone please measure a ZX-14 (2008 - 2011) header Exhaust port dia. ??
I'm not quite certain I have the correct dimension...

Ride safe, Ted
Title: Re: ZX-14 or ZX-14R Exhaust for a C-14?
Post by: gPink on May 01, 2017, 11:10:55 pm
Back in '10 (pre-flash days) I installed '06 zx headers w/ dual Muzzy cf mufflers, removed the secondaries an added a PCV w/Autotune. And yes I 'think' it runs better. Not a dyno within two hours so no it was not done.
Title: Re: ZX-14 or ZX-14R Exhaust for a C-14?
Post by: connie_rider on May 07, 2017, 04:14:38 pm
Thanks gpink.  I do appreciate the feedback.
Ghostrider sent me a PM and he reports the same as you.
The fact that there was an improvement is good...

I'm looking for a ZX-14 pipe/dyno run so we can see what the pipe actually did.
  With those numbers we can evaluate "where" it got better.

NOTE: Sorry, can't help myself. My background is research, so I need numbers!!

Ride safe, Ted
Title: Re: ZX-14 or ZX-14R Exhaust for a C-14?
Post by: connie_rider on November 05, 2017, 06:22:18 pm
Here are corrected header dimension's.
I bought a set from a 2008 ZX-14 to get this additional info.
Discovered that a 2007-2008 and 2009-2011 ZX-14 header's have different diameters, plus the later models all have a catalytic converter.

As always, if anyone see's an incorrect number, let me know.

Ted

ZX-14 2006 - 2007
 Entire head pipe dia is (1 1/2") {38 mm}
 Exhaust port dia (x2) is (2") {approx. 50 mm}
 Has no Catalytic converter.
Cyl's 1/4 and 2/3 are paired.


ZX-14 2008 - 2011
 Entire head pipe dia is (1 1/2") {38 mm}
 Exhaust port dia (x2) is (2 1/8") {approx. 54 mm}
 Has Catalytic converter.
Cyl's 1/4 and 2/3 are paired.   

ZX-14R: (2013 to current)
 Head pipe dia at the Flange is (1 1/2") {38 mm}
 Head pipe dia from 2" below the Flange, flares to (1 11/16") {43 mm}
 Exhaust port dia (x2) is (2 1/8") {54 mm}
 No Catalytic converter.
Cyl's 1/2 and 3/4 are paired.

ZG-14 (Concours)
 Entire head pipe dia is (1 3/8") {35 mm}
 Exhaust port dia (x1) is (2 1/8") {54 mm}
 Has Catalytic converter.
Cyl's 1/4 and 2/3 are paired.

Full Area P System
  Head pipe dia at the Flange is (1 1/2") {38 mm}
  Head pipe dia from 2" below the Flange, flares to {approx. 1 23/32"}) {44 mm}
 Exhaust port dia (x1) is approx. (2 1/4") {57 mm}
 No Catalytic converter.
Cyl's 1/4 and 2/3 are paired.
Title: Re: ZX-14 or ZX-14R Exhaust for a C-14?
Post by: gPink on November 05, 2017, 08:02:53 pm
Ted please clarify 'exhaust port'.
Title: Re: ZX-14 or ZX-14R Exhaust for a C-14?
Post by: connie_rider on November 06, 2017, 12:34:07 am
I'm referring to the exhaust exit ports at the rear of the collector.
Not sure what else to call them?

The port on the ZG, and the ports on the 2012 ZX-14R are all 2 1/8" OD.

The OD of the ports on my 2007 ZX-14 header are 2". (Which kinda surprised me)
Did a little research and discovered that Delkevic started offering a different exhaust for the ZX-14 in 2008.
So, I think after 2007, the exhaust port size increased to 2 1/8", but I have no way to know that for sure??

If someone has a 2008-2011 ZX-14 exhaust, please let me know that dimension...

Ride safe, Ted
Title: Re: ZX-14 or ZX-14R Exhaust for a C-14?
Post by: Egodriver71 on November 06, 2017, 11:57:14 am
The port on the ZG, and the ports on the 2012 ZX-14R are all 2 1/8" OD.

The OD of the ports on my 2008 ZX-14 header are 2". (Which kinda surprised me)
Did a little research and discovered that Delkevic started offering a different exhaust for the ZX-14 in 2008.
So, I think after 2008, the exhaust port size increased to 2 1/8", but I have no way to know that for sure??

If someone has a 2009-2011 ZX-14 exhaust, please let me know that dimension...

Ride safe, Ted

It did change and the only change necessary is a different gasket.
Title: Re: ZX-14 or ZX-14R Exhaust for a C-14?
Post by: connie_rider on November 06, 2017, 01:20:17 pm
Thanks Thomas. Good info. Matches my findings.
I agree, on the stock ZX mufflers, all that is needed is the correct gasket.
  (I have stock ZX mufflers and gaskets for 2" ports)

That's what started my info search. (I have 2012 ZX-14R headers, and 2010 ZX-14 mufflers)
I couldn't understand why the gaskets were 2' when I thought all ZX-14 headers had 2 1/8" ports.
I eventually bought 2007 headers and discovered the 2" ports.
Was not sure if the later models had gone to 2 1/8".

I've seen posts from others that installed slip-on's and found them too big to fit their ZX headers.
I suspect they were buying 2006/2007 headers, and trying to install slip-on's from a 2008/2011 ZX.
I think buying slip-on's for a 2006/2007 instead of a 2008-2011 will solve the problem?

Ride safe, Ted
Title: Re: ZX-14 or ZX-14R Exhaust for a C-14?
Post by: OKC14 on November 06, 2017, 04:29:35 pm
Thanks Thomas. Good info. Matches my findings.
I agree, on the stock ZX mufflers, all that is needed is the correct gasket.
  (I have stock ZX mufflers and gaskets for 2" ports)

That's what started my info search. (I have 2012 ZX-14R headers, and 2010 ZX-14 mufflers)
I couldn't understand why the gaskets were 2' when I thought all ZX-14 headers had 2 1/8" ports.
I eventually bought 2008 headers and discovered the 2" ports.
Was not sure if the later models had gone to 2 1/8".

I've seen posts from others that installed slip-on's and found them too big to fit their ZX headers.
I suspect they were buying 2007/2008 headers, and trying to install slip-on's from a 2009/2011 ZX.
I think buying slip-on's for a 2007/2008 will solve the problem?

Ride safe, Ted

I'm running a Delkevic C14 slipon on my 07 ZX14 header, I just made a little fiberglass wrap gasket and torqued it down good with an exhaust clamp. No issues with being too loose, it's just as solid as it was on the stock header.
Title: Re: ZX-14 or ZX-14R Exhaust for a C-14?
Post by: connie_rider on November 07, 2017, 02:24:07 pm
Thanks OKC.
I agree, the gap can be overcome. (I machined an aluminum bushing for mine)
Do you happen to know what model of Delkevics you have?
    I suspect they are for 2008-2011 ZX-14's.

Delkevic Slip-On's (and others) offered different part number headers for 2006-2007, and a 2008-2011 ZX-14's.
   (I think the difference in the 2 models is the size of the Mid Pipe Flare. (Fits the header port)
    If so, 2006-2007 Model Slip-on's will fit best on the early ZX-14 {2006-2007} headers. (with No Cat's)

Ride safe, Ted
Title: Re: ZX-14 or ZX-14R Exhaust for a C-14?
Post by: OKC14 on November 07, 2017, 02:55:29 pm
Thanks OKC.
I agree, the gap can be overcome. (I machined an aluminum bushing for mine)
Do you happen to know what model of Delkevics you have?
    I suspect they are for 2009-2011 ZX-14's.

Delkevic Slip-On's (and others) offered different part number headers for 2007-2008, and a 2009-2011 ZX-14's.
   (I think the difference in the 2 models is the size of the connection at the header port)
    If so, 2007-2008 Model's will fit best on the early ZX-14 headers.

Ride safe, Ted

I used the 9" carbon Delkevic shorty for the 2008-2015+ Concours 14.  No modifications to the midpipe to get it to fit on the 07 ZX14 header.
Title: Re: ZX-14 or ZX-14R Exhaust for a C-14?
Post by: connie_rider on November 08, 2017, 03:18:11 am
Thanks OKC. You are correct.
 You helped me find my error.
    I had the Model Years wrong.

Delkevic makes mufflers to fit 2006 - 2007 {w/2" Ports and NO Catalytic Converter}, and 2008 - 2011 {w/2 1/8" Ports and catalytic Converter} ZX-14's..

I should have said;
  Delkevic Slip-On's (and others) offered different part number headers for 2006-2007, and a 2008-2011 ZX-14's.
   (I think the difference in the 2 models is the size of the Mid Pipe Flare. (Fits the header port)
    If so, 2006-2007 Model Slip-on's will fit best on the early ZX-14 {2006-2007} headers. (with No Cat's)

Ride safe, Ted
Title: Re: ZX-14 or ZX-14R Exhaust for a C-14?
Post by: connie_rider on December 21, 2017, 11:22:23 pm
I'm still here; collecting parts to do this project.
Just bought a set of Muzzy's to put on the bike.
Someday, I'll finally get everything collected...

NOTE: I have 2007 header, and Muzzy's that were taken off of a 2008.
          By doing this purchase I confirmed my exhaust port size suspicions;
                    the 2007 header has 2" exhaust ports, and the Muzzy's (from a 2008) are gasketed for a 2 1/8" exhaust port.

Ride safe, Ted
Title: Re: ZX-14 or ZX-14R Exhaust for a C-14?
Post by: LURCH on December 22, 2017, 12:45:33 pm
Following
Title: Re: ZX-14 or ZX-14R Exhaust for a C-14?
Post by: gPink on December 22, 2017, 12:48:41 pm
 :truce:   Ted, after a year, seven pages and 162 replies would it be possible for you to restate your objectives and tell us why you haven't just put the stuff on the bike?  :beerchug:
Title: Re: ZX-14 or ZX-14R Exhaust for a C-14?
Post by: connie_rider on December 22, 2017, 06:07:57 pm
Good point!
I'll start with; I like to discuss idea's on the forum....

So, the previous pages were discussion's about;

     the benefits/differences of the ZX-14 and ZX-14R headers.
     asking who has ever done a dyno run with one of these headers. {NONE have done so}
     my idea to block the left side and install a valve {that opens the left side only under certain conditions}
     where to get a valve, what type, and how to install it.
     how to control the valve opening/closing.
     what needs to be on the header to record AFR and pressure.
     what is needed to install the ZX mufflers on a Connie.
     etc, etc, etc,,,,,,,,

But; You'll never know if an idea works, if ya don't give it a try.
           So, I've been gathering parts, machining components, and seeking information.

I settled on a; 2007 ZX-14 Header (without cat)
                     Muzzy slip-on's. (2008 ZX-14)
                     52 mm Stainless steel (flow control/butterfly valve)
                     Stainless steel adapters for the valve.
                     Stainless steel extension for right pipe (to match left side {with valve})
                     Weld in oxygen sensor port.
                     ZX-14 side stand/perch.
                     Steve's Mountain Runner Flash.
                     I'm currently building a muffler hanger for the left side {that matches original/right (ZG) hanger}

My plan is to control the flow valve with springs that allow it to open only at WOT and high rpm's.

Ride safe, Ted

PS: You may ask; Why haven't in installed it yet ..
      Simple answer is; I like to plan/discuss/fabricate more than I like to work..   ;)
Title: Re: ZX-14 or ZX-14R Exhaust for a C-14?
Post by: gPink on December 22, 2017, 11:11:53 pm
...but....but....you're retired....
Title: Re: ZX-14 or ZX-14R Exhaust for a C-14?
Post by: rcannon409 on December 23, 2017, 02:00:56 pm
Maybe this product exists, but I'm not aware of it if it does.  You know what I want?

A decent 4 into 1 header.  I know a lot of us have slip on exhausts.  My barely used 08 came with the Leo Vince 100% carbon fiber slip on. Carbon end cap. Probably riveted together with sterling silver rivets, installed by topless mermaids....several levels of expense over what I would have spent. The most expensive one in their line up, back then.

So, fast forward to today, and look at the horsepower our guys are getting when they reflash our bikes and install a full exhaust. It appears either the zx14 Akra, or Area p, does a really good job.

I admit I don't need the extra power, but still......

I like the idea of the  Deepsea mod to remove the cat from our stock exhaust, but that still leaves behind small header tubes.

SO, how about a "header only" that would replace out stock header and allow us to run the slip ons we already have?



Title: Re: ZX-14 or ZX-14R Exhaust for a C-14?
Post by: connie_rider on December 23, 2017, 03:31:25 pm
If you go back thru this discussion you will see that I originally started the project with a (2012) ZX-14R Header.
The ZX-14R Header matches your requirements {almost} exactly.
Bigger head pipes, collectors that match your slip-on, no cat's, bolt on without mods.
   Only problem is, it has 2 exhaust ports. (needs 2 slip-on's)
       I initially planned to run only 1 slip-on, so I built a plug for the left port.
          {I wanted the flow to be smooth across the end of the port, and keep the option to use it if I bought 2 mufflers.
            So I built the plug long enough to match the bottom of the port.
            Others have cut off the left port and welded it smooth}

Later, I decided to use the 2007 ZX-14 header instead. {as I think it matches my (restrictor valve) idea better}
   So, the ZX-14R {w/plug} is available if anyone wants it.     {$50 & ship}
   I also have 2 stock ZX-14 Mufflers. {$100 and ship}
      {If sold; all $$ go to next years "Over the Pond"}


Gary sed; ...but....but....you're retired....
My point exactly!!  I like to plan/discuss/fabricate "more" than I like to work..   ;)

Ride safe, Ted

PS: Gary after reading old posts, I see that I picked the same header/muffler combination that you have.
Title: Re: ZX-14 or ZX-14R Exhaust for a C-14?
Post by: cuda on December 23, 2017, 04:00:35 pm
I'll be getting my bike to Steve for valve adjustments

at that time he can dyno my 2011 with 2006 ? I think ZX14 stock header with cat removed , two brothers cans .

I crushed my left hand in a thanksgiving roll over in my Polaris RZR , skin graft next week , skin missing from top of hand  :-[

Not sure when I'm riding again.
Title: Re: ZX-14 or ZX-14R Exhaust for a C-14?
Post by: connie_rider on December 23, 2017, 04:17:39 pm
I'll be getting my bike to Steve for valve adjustments

at that time he can dyno my 2011 with 2006 ? I think ZX14 stock header with cat removed , two brothers cans .

I crushed my left hand in a thanksgiving roll over in my Polaris RZR , skin graft next week , skin missing from top of hand  :-[

Not sure when I'm riding again.

Cuda; I would love to see those numbers!
  (Do you have a flash/etc in the ECU?)

NOTE: If you removed the cat from your header: it is a 2008-2011 and should have 2 1/8" dia. exhaust ports.
          If the header originally did not have a Cat: and the exhaust port is 2" dia., the header came off of a 2006-2007.

Really sorry to hear about your hand...

Ride safe, Ted
Title: Re: ZX-14 or ZX-14R Exhaust for a C-14?
Post by: cuda on December 23, 2017, 06:26:54 pm
I  guess it's a 08 then ,  I'll put it on a trailer and drop it off at Steve's , this should be his slow time.

Not sure witch flash Steve installed , he'll have the bike for a few weeks so he'll have time to play around if he wants.

Not sure when I'll ride again have pins in the fingers now .
Title: Re: ZX-14 or ZX-14R Exhaust for a C-14?
Post by: rcannon409 on December 24, 2017, 01:57:35 pm
Connierider, that zx14 header, using only one side, would match my slip on fairly well? 

And sorry, I'm probably asking what was discussed 6 pages ago,  I thought/wondered if  the diameter of that two outlet (zx14) header might be smaller where it splits into the two sides.
Title: Re: ZX-14 or ZX-14R Exhaust for a C-14?
Post by: connie_rider on December 24, 2017, 04:42:28 pm
I feel that the alignment/fit will be very close. But, I haven't installed mine yet so I can't say for sure.
One of the other members {I forget who} is currently running only the right port on his ZX-14 headers, and using his (ZG-14) slip-on exhaust on it.            Maybe he'll speak up?

The diameter of the exhaust ports {of all ZX-14 headers after 2007}, are the same diameter (2 1/8") as the single exhaust port on your C-14.       {The 2006 and 2007 have 2" exhaust ports.}

That is 1 reason I opted to use the 2007 headers instead of the 2012.
  (I'm afraid that 2 ea.,  2 1/8" ports may be too much area to assure good low end.)
   (NOTE : The flow of 1 port should be closer match to a ZG-14.
        {but will have more flow because of larger head pipe sizes and no Cat}

I have more than $50 in these headers, and I'll be giving the money to "OtP" so I'm not making any money here.
On Ebay their selling for about $100.
I'm just offering them in case someone wants to give them a try.

Ride safe, Ted
Title: Re: ZX-14 or ZX-14R Exhaust for a C-14?
Post by: khager01 on December 28, 2017, 11:49:27 pm
SO, how about a "header only" that would replace out stock header and allow us to run the slip ons we already have?

I agree keep it simple!
Title: Re: ZX-14 or ZX-14R Exhaust for a C-14?
Post by: connie_rider on December 29, 2017, 12:46:23 am
Other than finding a used 4 into 1 Muzzy, these are the options I know of, that are relatively EZ and inexpensive...

2006 - 2007 ZX-14 header. (has 2" ports and "no" Cat)  {Probably the best option}
Block left port, build spacer that increases OD of header to 2 1/8" OD., install your existing slip-on on the right.  {ZG Slip-on is 2 1/8" ID.} 
Done........

2008 - 2011 ZX-14 header. (has 2 1/8" ports and Cat) {Probably the next best option}
Block left port, install your existing slip-on on the right.  {ZG Slip-on is 2 1/8" ID.}
Done........

2012 - 2014 ZX-14R header. (has 2 1/8" ports and "No" Cat)
Block left port, install your existing slip-on on the right.  {ZG Slip-on is 2 1/8" ID.}
Done........

2015 - 2017 ZX-14R header. (has 2 1/8" ports and Cat)
Block left port, install your existing slip-on on the right.  {ZG Slip-on is 2 1/8" ID.}
Done........

Will any of these improve Torque/HP?
       I'm NOT sure.
But, each will; Replace our stock header and allow us to run the slip-on's we already have.

Ride safe, Ted
Title: Re: ZX-14 or ZX-14R Exhaust for a C-14?
Post by: Grant on December 29, 2017, 05:38:33 am
OMG where have I been there is a crap load of reading here for me to catch up on. Dam Ted how did I miss this???
Title: Re: ZX-14 or ZX-14R Exhaust for a C-14?
Post by: connie_rider on December 29, 2017, 05:32:23 pm
Grant, do a quick read; The discussion started with questions about the 2012 ZX-14R exhaust I purchased.
                                   Later it moved thru various idea's I was contemplating.
                                   Lots of folks chipped in with their thoughts...

Pretty interesting reading if your a mad scientist..   >:D

I later opted to use a 2007 ZX-14 header {as the head pipes and exhaust ports are smaller, plus the head pipes are
    paired like a Concours}
.
       ZX-14R; Cyls 1/2 and 3/4 are paired.
       ZG and ZX-14; Cyls 1/4 and 2/3 are paired.

NOTE:
   The Concours Exhaust is basically a "Tri Y".   {4 - 2 - 1} {*because of the Cat design in the collector}
                       {at the end of the collector it has 1 ea (2 1/8" OD) exhaust port}.
                **I think the Cat, keeps the cylinder flows paired until they reach the end of the collector.

     The 2007 ZX-14 Exhaust is a modified "Tri Y".  {4 - 2 - 1 - 2} (*because it's collector has a dividing plate inside}
                       {at the end of the collector it has 2 ea. (2" OD) exhaust ports}.
                **I think the plate keeps the cylinder flows paired until they reach the end of the collector.
     
(Over engineering it further)
   I'm planning to use the 2007 ZX-14 headers with a valve installed in the left exhaust pipe {to make the left exhaust flow variable}...

Ride safe, Ted
Title: Re: ZX-14 or ZX-14R Exhaust for a C-14?
Post by: gPink on January 20, 2018, 04:56:17 pm
Ted, here's a cheap dump gate... sorry about the long address... https://www.aliexpress.com/item/Kylin-Store-3-Electric-Stainless-Exhaust-Cutout-Cut-Out-Dump-Valve-switch-without-Remote-control/32243660320.html?src=google&albslr=201540638&isdl=y&aff_short_key=UneMJZVf&source=%7Bifdyn:dyn%7D%7Bifpla:pla%7D%7Bifdbm:DBM&albch=DID%7D&src=google&albch=shopping&acnt=708-803-3821&isdl=y&albcp=653482935&albag=32646801963&slnk=&trgt=68684682745&plac=&crea=en32243660320&netw=g&device=c&mtctp=&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIvvDz7Izn2AIV1rrACh2TOgs9EAQYBCABEgJEk_D_BwE (https://www.aliexpress.com/item/Kylin-Store-3-Electric-Stainless-Exhaust-Cutout-Cut-Out-Dump-Valve-switch-without-Remote-control/32243660320.html?src=google&albslr=201540638&isdl=y&aff_short_key=UneMJZVf&source=%7Bifdyn:dyn%7D%7Bifpla:pla%7D%7Bifdbm:DBM&albch=DID%7D&src=google&albch=shopping&acnt=708-803-3821&isdl=y&albcp=653482935&albag=32646801963&slnk=&trgt=68684682745&plac=&crea=en32243660320&netw=g&device=c&mtctp=&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIvvDz7Izn2AIV1rrACh2TOgs9EAQYBCABEgJEk_D_BwE)
Title: Re: ZX-14 or ZX-14R Exhaust for a C-14?
Post by: connie_rider on January 20, 2018, 05:50:55 pm
Thanks Gary. I considered an electric dump valve but wanted something to operate with the exhaust flow, not just open or closed.
You and I were talking about an EXUP system somewhere about the 3rd page of this discussion.
An EXUP is kinda/sorta what I'm working at..

I purchased a Stainless Steel valve some time ago.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Vacuum-Activated-Exhaust-Cutout-2-51MM-Open-Style-Pressure-about-1-BAR/252934027007?epid=869869096&hash=item3ae40af6ff:g:yeoAAOSw~FJZFWG~ (https://www.ebay.com/itm/Vacuum-Activated-Exhaust-Cutout-2-51MM-Open-Style-Pressure-about-1-BAR/252934027007?epid=869869096&hash=item3ae40af6ff:g:yeoAAOSw~FJZFWG~)

Since that time, I removed the vacuum mechanism, and machined and welded adapters to the valve.
  {The adapters make installation between the header and the mid pipe EZ to do, and changes overall length only 2".}
I've purchased Muzzy Slip-on's, and built a muffler hanger for the left side of the bike.
Bouht gaskets, side stand, hardware, etc..

Headers;
I decided the ZX-14R headers were bad for a ZG-1400, and purchased early (non-cat) ZX-14 headers.
  { ZX-14R head pipes are too big, cylinder phasing of the head pipes is incorrect, Exhaust ports are 2 1/8"}
  {Early ZX-14 headers have smaller head pipe diameters, correct cylinder phasing, and 2" exhaust ports}

I think everything is almost ready..

Right now, I'm waiting to see dyno plots/numbers on a ZX-14 header and slip-on's.
                 (Ivan is supposed to be doing dyno run's soon).

Ride safe, Ted
Title: Re: ZX-14 or ZX-14R Exhaust for a C-14?
Post by: gPink on January 20, 2018, 06:12:19 pm
You mention exhaust flow controlled which would correlate with rpms and throttle position. Could you get Steve to tie it to the ecu to control a stepper motor like the secondary butterflies are controlled?
Title: Re: ZX-14 or ZX-14R Exhaust for a C-14?
Post by: Grant on January 20, 2018, 07:15:24 pm
You mention exhaust flow controlled which would correlate with rpms and throttle position. Could you get Steve to tie it to the ecu to control a stepper motor like the secondary butterflies are controlled?

Thanks Gary. I considered an electric dump valve but wanted something to operate with the exhaust flow, not just open or closed.
You and I were talking about an EXUP system somewhere about the 3rd page of this discussion.
An EXUP is kinda/sorta what I'm working at..

I purchased a Stainless Steel valve some time ago.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Vacuum-Activated-Exhaust-Cutout-2-51MM-Open-Style-Pressure-about-1-BAR/252934027007?epid=869869096&hash=item3ae40af6ff:g:yeoAAOSw~FJZFWG~ (https://www.ebay.com/itm/Vacuum-Activated-Exhaust-Cutout-2-51MM-Open-Style-Pressure-about-1-BAR/252934027007?epid=869869096&hash=item3ae40af6ff:g:yeoAAOSw~FJZFWG~)

Since that time, I removed the vacuum mechanism, and machined and welded adapters to the valve.
  {The adapters make installation between the header and the mid pipe EZ to do, and changes overall length only 2".}
I've purchased Muzzy Slip-on's, and built a muffler hanger for the left side of the bike.
Bouht gaskets, side stand, hardware, etc..

Headers;
I decided the ZX-14R headers were bad for a ZG-1400, and purchased early (non-cat) ZX-14 headers.
  { ZX-14R head pipes are too big, cylinder phasing of the head pipes is incorrect, Exhaust ports are 2 1/8"}
  {Early ZX-14 headers have smaller head pipe diameters, correct cylinder phasing, and 2" exhaust ports}

I think everything is almost ready..

Right now, I'm waiting to see dyno plots/numbers on a ZX-14 header and slip-on's.
                 (Iam is supposed to be doing run's soon).

Ride safe, Ted
How about a vacuum sense turbo waste gate with a light weight spring? This would only allow exhaust to flow through the auxiliary exhaust when a predetermined back pressure was reached.
Title: Re: ZX-14 or ZX-14R Exhaust for a C-14?
Post by: Grant on January 20, 2018, 07:30:29 pm
I am working on a compound diesel turbo setup right  now where the high pressure turbo is a VVT and a waste gate would not typically be used. My idea is to have the waste gate installed before the high pressure turbo but dump back in before the atmospheric Turbo.
Otherwise when the little turbo is in danger of being over driven above the capabilities of the variable veins a small portion of exhaust will be routed around it but still fed through the larger Turbo and not be wasted.
I don't see why a wastegate could not be used in a non turbo exhaust to control Power Band in a system such as Ted is describing here the same way I am using it to get the Best of Both Worlds.
Title: Re: ZX-14 or ZX-14R Exhaust for a C-14?
Post by: stephen_gayle on January 20, 2018, 10:34:36 pm
maybe a bit late....but. yes, put the header on....might want to change out spark plugs while you  do this, easier access.  I put header on 09 c14...caped left side and stayed with single pipe.  made cap out of piece of exhaust pipe with cap welded on pipe...used local muffler shop for fab.   I also used 'wrap exhaust tape' from local auto parts store since neither exhaust donut works from c14 or zx.   hp at rear wheel remained in 150 range.   the after market pipe/muffler set up perfect for center stand bumber.     hope this helps.    Stephen in cleveland
Title: Re: ZX-14 or ZX-14R Exhaust for a C-14?
Post by: connie_rider on January 21, 2018, 01:02:49 am
Thanks Stephen...  150 HP range is a realistic number, and it's what I'm hoping for.
I would love to see any dyno plots you might have??
  This project started with a ZX-14R header and 1 slip-on, later changed to a ZX-14 Header and 2 slip-on's (w/valve).
    That led to idea of opening the left port "only" when I needed the extra exhaust flow...

Gary, a stepper motor and ECU control was discussed on page 1 -3 of this discussion.
   Because of complexity, I opted to try a manual operation first.
        {to see if controlling flow thru the left aside does anything} {ie; Dyno runs}
   Most folks think it is a waste of time..... But, {because I'm hard headed} I'm still trying to get it built...

Grant your a lot more knowledgeable than I about operation of a waste gate etc.
   I think my valve is basically a poor mans waste gate.  {??}
    NOTE: One {close} side of the valve will be drilled to lessen the surface area on that side.
              Pressure/flow against the other {open} side of the valve will allow it to open.
               {I think the differential pressure will do the work, because of the difference in surface area}
              A weak spring will control the opening pressure / set point.
                    I hope........

Ride safe, Ted      <Mad Scientist Grin>  >:D
Title: Re: ZX-14 or ZX-14R Exhaust for a C-14?
Post by: connie_rider on February 11, 2018, 10:50:15 pm
We finally got a ZX-14 header plot to see.
Ivan recently tested a C-14 with ZX-14 header and developed a Flash to go with it.

http://forum.cog-online.org/ivan's-performance-products/2006-2007-zx14-header-tuned-and-tested/ (http://forum.cog-online.org/ivan's-performance-products/2006-2007-zx14-header-tuned-and-tested/)

Peak HP {w/flash} is shown at 159, and the mid range looks pretty good.
{for only $500+ more} An Akrapovic full system made 162 peak HP and {I think} had less low end power..

I already asked if he also had a plot of a ZX-14 header {without the flash} that we could see {for reference}...

I've been asking this exact question for 2 years. Still hoping for the plot from someone..  :banghead:

Ride safe, Ted
Title: Re: ZX-14 or ZX-14R Exhaust for a C-14?
Post by: connie_rider on May 17, 2018, 10:31:58 pm
I got off my butt and started the header/valve install..
   Today I installed the ZX-14 headers, back pressure control valve, ZX-14 side stand, and Muzzy Mufflers.

Still have some fabricating to do {to get the center Stand to work the way I want / etc} but at least I'm started...
                           >:D

Ride safe, Ted
 
Title: Re: ZX-14 or ZX-14R Exhaust for a C-14?
Post by: Grant on May 18, 2018, 01:52:05 am
I got off my butt and started the header/valve install..
   Today I installed the ZX-14 headers, back pressure control valve, ZX-14 side stand, and Muzzy Mufflers.

Still have some fabricating to do {to get the canter Stand to work the way I want / etc} but at least I'm started...
                           >:D

Ride safe, Ted
Where is the like button... :) :motonoises:
Title: Re: ZX-14 or ZX-14R Exhaust for a C-14?
Post by: ghostrider990 on May 19, 2018, 12:27:46 am
I got off my butt and started the header/valve install..
   Today I installed the ZX-14 headers, back pressure control valve, ZX-14 side stand, and Muzzy Mufflers.

Still have some fabricating to do {to get the canter Stand to work the way I want / etc} but at least I'm started...
                           >:D

Ride safe, Ted
Where is the like button... :) :motonoises:

Was that the like button for Ted's Butt???  :-\ :rotflmao:

He might ACTUALLY ride that bike, one day.   :motonoises:

gr
Title: Re: ZX-14 or ZX-14R Exhaust for a C-14?
Post by: LURCH on May 19, 2018, 02:00:28 pm
Watching and waiting for the center stand build. The center stand for the ZX-14 didn't work for me.
Title: Re: ZX-14 or ZX-14R Exhaust for a C-14?
Post by: connie_rider on May 19, 2018, 03:17:14 pm
GR, I probably deserve that.
  But it's more, He might ACTUALLY ride finish the install on that bike, one some day.   :motonoises:

Fyi; This year, I've been to the Track Day in Florida, Wildflower event in Hunt Tx, Horseshoe Mountain event in Ark., multiple day rides with friends.
I'm going to the COG National in Kerrville in a couple of weeks, and then,,,
    {Dat, da, da, daaaaa}  I'm gonna Ride the Alp's event in Europe..
                       Wanna go with me??? 
:85:

Lurch: {If I ever get off this computer  :truce:} I'll modify/fabricate the foot for my center stand today.
          Yesterday it dawned on me there is a semi simple way.
             Last night, I cut the original foot off.
             Today, I'll add a 1" drop down plate, and extend the original foot beyond the left mid pipe. {about 3" will be added}.
                   ie; There will be sort of a "Z" in the original foot...
                      Fingers crossed!

Ride safe, Ted
Title: Re: ZX-14 or ZX-14R Exhaust for a C-14?
Post by: LURCH on May 20, 2018, 10:34:22 am
 :popcorn:
Title: Re: ZX-14 or ZX-14R Exhaust for a C-14?
Post by: Wingedspirit on May 20, 2018, 11:28:52 am
Ted you're the man!  Happy to see you're getting out there!

Finally got the engine for the racecar, so that's taking up my time now.
Title: Re: ZX-14 or ZX-14R Exhaust for a C-14?
Post by: connie_rider on May 20, 2018, 06:39:15 pm
I fabricated the Center stand foot yesterday. Hope to weld it tomorrow.
So far, so good... {finger's crossed}

Ride safe, Ted
Title: Re: ZX-14 or ZX-14R Exhaust for a C-14?
Post by: connie_rider on May 26, 2018, 12:07:13 am
Everything is assembled and fits ok.
  A ZX-14 side stand base gave me the clearance I needed on the side stand.
  The center stand Mod I mentioned earlier worked great..
   Unfortunately the Back pressure Control valve didn't work.  *&*%*&#%^ !!!
       {I took it off for now to rethink how to make it operate.}

I used grant's idea and installed extensions. {where the mid pipes fit onto the header ports}
This mod worked with my valve install and seemed to give me some extra clearance.
I liked that, so for now I'll keep it that way.

I did a test ride yesterday and it definitely seems quicker.
But, it also seems to have lost some more low end torque than I hoped , and it is a heck of a lot louder..  :-[
Will ride it awhile and see if I get to like it...
 
NOTE: While on the test ride I discovered I forgot to hook up my right front blinker and my horns didn't work.
                 *&*%*&#%^ !!!   >:(

So, I pulled the right plastic {again} to hook up the wire and discovered my horn harness had some broken wires.
 *&*%*&#%^ !!!  again..       Fixed those today.
  Since I have the horns off I ordered some Piaa's and will put everything back together when they arrive.

Ride safe, Ted
Title: Re: ZX-14 or ZX-14R Exhaust for a C-14?
Post by: Turtle on May 27, 2018, 12:05:08 pm
Good thing you got this finished and beat the heat.  :coffee2:
Title: Re: ZX-14 or ZX-14R Exhaust for a C-14?
Post by: connie_rider on May 27, 2018, 04:27:59 pm
I planned ahead.
I kept the garage doors closed, opened the door to my house, and used a fan to blow air conditioned air into the attached garage.
95* outside, about 80* in the garage...

Ride safe, Ted
Title: Re: ZX-14 or ZX-14R Exhaust for a C-14?
Post by: Bikejunkie1013 on May 27, 2018, 05:53:15 pm
I have 2 or 3 ZX14 headers, a Muzzy Left side muffler mount and a pair of used 2 Bros Carbon Fiber slip-ons.
I guess I will list them in C-14 classifieds..
Title: Re: ZX-14 or ZX-14R Exhaust for a C-14?
Post by: ron203 on May 28, 2018, 02:29:57 pm

(http://forum.cog-online.org/MGalleryItem.php?id=1954)
Title: Re: ZX-14 or ZX-14R Exhaust for a C-14?
Post by: ron203 on May 28, 2018, 02:30:50 pm
(http://[img]http://forum.cog-online.org/MGalleryItem.php?id=1955)[/img]
Title: Re: ZX-14 or ZX-14R Exhaust for a C-14?
Post by: ron203 on May 28, 2018, 02:31:18 pm
(http://forum.cog-online.org/MGalleryItem.php?id=1955)
Title: Re: ZX-14 or ZX-14R Exhaust for a C-14?
Post by: ron203 on May 28, 2018, 02:31:53 pm
(http://forum.cog-online.org/MGalleryItem.php?id=1956)
Title: Re: ZX-14 or ZX-14R Exhaust for a C-14?
Post by: connie_rider on May 28, 2018, 04:44:18 pm
Thanks for posting those Ron.

How to build or install something on a Connie I can {eventually} figure out.
How to post photo's here,,, no way..
I are computer illiterate and proud of it.

Ride safe, Ted

PS: Just installed the Piaa horn's…
            LOUD!!!!
Title: Re: ZX-14 or ZX-14R Exhaust for a C-14?
Post by: connie_rider on June 05, 2018, 05:29:23 pm
Had a setback on my Muzzy install.  :truce:
Grandson and I took the bike out for a good test and we drug {dragged?} the mid-pipes on both sides.
   And we didn't even get into some real twisties!!          >:(

NOTE: I had extended the mid-pipes out about 3' to improve how the Muzzy's fit my headers.
          My bike is lowered. {But I never drug the Area P system I had on the bike previously}. (this included some track days)

Soooo, Last night, I removed the 3" extension's and moved the front of the mid- pipes in..
Will give it another  try soon.       Probably at the National in Kerrville....  :great:

If this doesn't work, I'm considering raising the bike, or another set of mufflers.  :-[

Ride safe, Ted
Title: Re: ZX-14 or ZX-14R Exhaust for a C-14?
Post by: connie_rider on June 18, 2018, 06:38:09 pm
Post National Report;
    Slightly drug the {bottom/left} mid pipe again. {My  (1 1/2") lowered bike is just too low}
    Some burble, surging when riding at "very" low throttle openings}.
      {Any throttle opening above the initial crack, runs like a scalded dog!!}
    To my ear, these puppies are too loud. {others liked the sound}
    Suspension preload is set as hard as possible to give me ground clearance. {Rough when riding}

Da Plan:
 The Muzzy mid pipes/mufflers will be coming off.
    {for now} Plan is to replace the right side Muzzy with an Area P Slip On and plug the left side.
      {later}   Trying to find a used Area P to install on the left side.
                        Area P has smaller OD mid pipe and inside of Muffler is smaller.
                          {Might help ground clearance issues, and maybe the burble, surging?}
                    Raise the bike about 3/4", and soften the preload on the springs.
                          {Change drop from 1 1/2" to 3/4". {I think I discovered how to build my own Lowering Link at "any" height I want.}
                    Pick Steve's brain to see if he has any suggestions on the Flash I'm using. (he told me I would have a problem)
                         I have his Mountain Runner Flash and it is great with my Stock exhaust and Area P slip on. {HIGHLY recommended}
                         Wondering; Maybe his Area P {Full System} flash would work better with the ZX header?

Ride safe, Ted
Title: Re: ZX-14 or ZX-14R Exhaust for a C-14?
Post by: connie_rider on June 20, 2018, 05:53:28 pm
Removed the right Muzzy Muffler/Mid-pipe and temporarily installed the Area P Muffler/Mid-pipe.
For now, I kept the Muzzy on the left side so (By blocking one or the other) I can hear the difference in sound.

The Area P is not that much quieter, but has a different/deeper tone.
Also gave me more ground clearance.

Tonight, I will finish the Area P install, remove, the left Muzzy, and plug that side for now.
Will see how that runs...

Ride safe, Ted
Title: Re: ZX-14 or ZX-14R Exhaust for a C-14?
Post by: connie_rider on August 15, 2018, 09:44:54 pm
Previous Post National Report;
    Slightly drug the {bottom/left} mid pipe again. {My  (1 1/2") lowered bike is just too low}
    Some burble, surging when riding at "very" low throttle openings}.
      {Any throttle opening above the initial crack, runs like a scalded dog!!}
    To my ear, these puppies are too loud. {others liked the sound}

Latest Ride report with 1 Area P Muffler installed.
No more;  burble, surging when riding at "very" low throttle openings.
                Runs good!! Smooth roll on/cruise. But may have lost bit of the WOT power.
                Did not drag anything. The Area P Mid Pipe has more ground clearance..

As I'm crazy and like to tinker,,,, I currently installing a second Area p Muffler on the left side.
                                                 Building my own left Mid Pipe.

Ride safe, Ted
Title: Re: ZX-14 or ZX-14R Exhaust for a C-14?
Post by: connie_rider on September 16, 2018, 12:47:42 am
Finally finished the mid pipe and installed the left Area P Muffler on the bike.
Looks good, sounds good, (lots quieter than the Muzzy Mufflers were} will test it soon.

Ride safe, Ted
Title: Re: ZX-14 or ZX-14R Exhaust for a C-14?
Post by: connie_rider on September 24, 2018, 10:15:42 pm
Update to the update...
Rode Arkansas last weekend with the new Muffler set up.
Loved it!!!

Surging/loud/popping that I had with the Muzzy's is gone...
I think the difference is the I.D. of the mid pipes and the muffler ID.
Muzzy's were 2 1/4" ID. The Area P's ID is 2"...

For those that don't want to read back, I have 2008 ZX-14 headers installed w/o catalysts.

Ride safe, Ted
   
Title: Re: ZX-14 or ZX-14R Exhaust for a C-14?
Post by: ron203 on October 01, 2018, 09:21:22 pm
New pix per Ted

(http://forum.cog-online.org/MGalleryItem.php?id=2034)

(http://forum.cog-online.org/MGalleryItem.php?id=2033)

(http://forum.cog-online.org/MGalleryItem.php?id=2035)
Title: Re: ZX-14 or ZX-14R Exhaust for a C-14?
Post by: cuda on October 02, 2018, 12:25:43 am
Hey Ted
I lowered mine years ago, didn't last long , I felt it screwed up the ride, empty pick up truck rough.

As far noise , the Two Brothers sound sweet, I like hearing every burp, crackle, pop, very entertaining 

but I respect others so I use the smallest reducers they sell for these cans, not sure how they can call them
 
mufflers since it's just a open pipe with small holes , but those reducers change everything, domestication.

No need to change anything but those little reducers  :great:

Local bike shop where the owner professionally drag races a ZX14 tells me I'm giving away 3HP   :'(

 


Title: Re: ZX-14 or ZX-14R Exhaust for a C-14?
Post by: connie_rider on October 03, 2018, 03:15:53 pm
Thank you Ron. {I sent you a note}..

Looking at the pictures I actually like the looks better with the Muzzy's, but the Area P mufflers are a better fit for me (Not as loud) and they are tucked in a lot better. More ground clearance..

Cuda, my Muzzy's don't have the inserts, nor holes to install them. Can you send a photo of yours?
I set the spring sag and mine is now rougher than I like. Would decrease pre-load but right now nothing drags in the twisties. Afraid softening it may make things drag when I'm playing in the Arkansas twisties with Cliff.

Currently building my own lowering links as I'm a bit too low..
   Now at 1 1/4" drop. Changing that to 3/4" drop...   >:D
     If that works out, I'll soften the preload a bit.
NOTE: I don't like the adjustable links as I prefer to use my center stand..

Talked to Steve. {Geez he's knowledgeable!}
He thinks there's more power available with a bit of tuning..   :great:

Ride safe, Ted

PS: {Please don't tell him I sed something nice about him.}
Title: Re: ZX-14 or ZX-14R Exhaust for a C-14?
Post by: cuda on October 03, 2018, 05:01:52 pm
https://www.revzilla.com/motorcycle/two-brothers-p1x-power-tip (https://www.revzilla.com/motorcycle/two-brothers-p1x-power-tip)

I installed even a size smaller than the ones shown.
Title: Re: ZX-14 or ZX-14R Exhaust for a C-14?
Post by: connie_rider on October 04, 2018, 02:39:38 pm
Thanx Cuda. I missed that you had the Two Brothers.
Now I understand your first note...

Baffles are not available for the Muzzy's nor the Area P.
I went to the Area P as it is much quieter than the Muzzy's…
     
Ride safe, Ted

PS: Anyone looking for some nice quiet Muzzy's?
Title: Re: ZX-14 or ZX-14R Exhaust for a C-14?
Post by: cuda on October 04, 2018, 03:18:21 pm
Here is old silver 
Title: Re: ZX-14 or ZX-14R Exhaust for a C-14?
Post by: connie_rider on October 08, 2018, 03:45:56 pm
Good looking set up.
Appear to be closer to the swing arm than mine. Nice!

Ride safe, Ted
Title: Re: ZX-14 or ZX-14R Exhaust for a C-14?
Post by: connie_rider on August 03, 2019, 04:08:24 pm
Update on this old discussion;
I just returned from the COG National.
Still have the 2, Area P Mufflers and a 2006 ZX-1400 header.
I recently upgraded from Steve's Mountain Runner to his Mountain Runner Premium flash.
Runs great!

I LIKE IT!!!!   :great: :great:

Ride safe, Ted