Author Topic: ZX-14 or ZX-14R Exhaust for a C-14?  (Read 28696 times)

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Offline connie_rider

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Re: ZX-14 or ZX-14R Exhaust for a C-14?
« Reply #75 on: February 05, 2017, 05:08:06 pm »
Thank's Gpink!   
A 'Variable Back-Pressure Exhaust' {VB-PE} is exactly what I've been trying to develop in my feeble mind.
That was the final piece of info I needed to understand the function.
 "And", it gave me the info I needed to develop Rev's idea. <evil grin>

I "think" I know how to build it now...
"If" I can figure it out, it will have;
                        All mechanical components.
                        No wiring, no switches.
                        Installation will only require 1 small mod to my ZX-14R exhaust.
                        If it doesn't work, the VB-PE can be removed and the ZX-14 exhaust returned to it's original flow...

To the drawing board!!!!!

Ride safe, Ted

PS: I now BADLY need a 2" dia Butterfly valve and shaft.
      No body / external housing needed.
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Offline Jim Snyder

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Re: ZX-14 or ZX-14R Exhaust for a C-14?
« Reply #76 on: February 05, 2017, 05:45:11 pm »
If you go the spring route there are a variety of carburetor return springs available that might fit the bill.
"Some days you're the windshield, and some days you're the bug" Get used to it cause thats life !!!

Offline connie_rider

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Re: ZX-14 or ZX-14R Exhaust for a C-14?
« Reply #77 on: February 05, 2017, 06:58:38 pm »
Sketches done.
Rough dimensions determined.
Looks "do-able".......   :great:

Did I mention?
  I now BADLY need a 2" dia Butterfly valve and shaft.
      No body / external housing needed.
[/color]
I'm planning to use "several" light weight spring's {very similar to the Carb return springs Jim mentioned}.

Ride safe, Ted
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Offline Jim Snyder

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Re: ZX-14 or ZX-14R Exhaust for a C-14?
« Reply #78 on: February 05, 2017, 09:08:00 pm »
Sketches done.
Rough dimensions determined.
Looks "do-able".......   :great:

Did I mention?
  I now BADLY need a 2" dia Butterfly valve and shaft.
      No body / external housing needed.
[/color]
I'm planning to use "several" light weight spring's {very similar to the Carb return springs Jim mentioned}.

Ride safe, Ted

Yo Ted, you can find those carb return Springs at most auto parts stores. If I remember correctly many of them are two stage or rather have an inner and outer spring together.
"Some days you're the windshield, and some days you're the bug" Get used to it cause thats life !!!

Offline mattchewn

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Re: ZX-14 or ZX-14R Exhaust for a C-14?
« Reply #79 on: February 06, 2017, 12:51:42 pm »
Ted,
I wasn't referring to buying an Area P to start with. I was only saying start with a larger mid pipe diameter and throttle back the flow to increase the low end. That way you "get it all" as it were. Changing only the collector assembly and replacing with a larger diameter might be just what the doctor ordered.  The trick is going to come in making the exhaust flow smoothly without disrupting the scavenging effects needed for max power and torque!  Maybe??
Matt
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Offline connie_rider

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Re: ZX-14 or ZX-14R Exhaust for a C-14?
« Reply #80 on: February 06, 2017, 03:07:47 pm »
Ok, I thought you were saying don't waste my time. Buy the Area P and be done.

I think I follow your explanation, and I think the ZX-14R header does most of what your describing.
 [Geez we need to talk.... This is hard to describe with a keyboard]
Look at photo's to see details.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/12-15-KAWASAKI-NINJA-ZX14-ZX14R-EXHAUST-HEADERS-OEM/152112234050?_trksid=p2047675.c100011.m1850&_trkparms=aid%3D222007%26algo%3DSIC.MBE%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D20140602152332%26meid%3D98b0ed274be44d698651d715fa5fe7cc%26pid%3D100011%26rk%3D2%26rkt%3D7%26sd%3D111820733387

This header has; Larger head pipes than a ZG,
                         same flange size as a Full Area P system with similar head pipe expansion. {but largest dia. is 1 mm smaller}
NOTE: The pipes between the head pipes are braces only. NOT pressure balance passages.

The 4 head pipes "Y" into 2 passages before entering the collector.

Collector; Is initially large, necks down, then expands again.
                  {like a venturi} which might help scavenging.
               {Has no Cat. plus it has a smoother exit port design than the 2007 Header}
              Has a plate down the center isolating the left from right.
                That plate converts the sides of the collector into 2 runners that are 9' long.
                {I think this plate effectively changes the header from a typical 4 into 1 /collector design to Tri Y type design}
              Those 2 runners merge into an open chamber at the back.

From that chamber the exhaust exits thru 2  (2" dia. / 3.1 Square inches) mid pipes.
  The 2 mid pipes (6.2 total square inches) are the thing that don't match your scenario.
         I think they have to much flow...

So, I intially decided to block 1 off...
           But, I agree; just blocking off 1 port will cause turbulence/etc issues..

Next, I planned to remove the left port, bend the tail of the inner plate to direct flow to the right, and also mod the rear housing to direct flow in that direction.    {NOTE: I may still do this}.

And then,, "and THEN",,,,,, I read Throttle8's "Snake's" note.  :41:
    Immediately, my eyes crossed, everything got fuzzy, and my brain started spinning..
            I think I HATE him...

I thought; maybe a dump valve (adjusted to open slightly) would increase flow, and relieve pressure at WOT.        .
      So,,  I started this discussion to get others thoughts.

Most seem to think; it won't work.
                               Can't be built.
                                 Total waste of time...

Which REALLY make's we want to try...  >:D

Ride safe, Ted
« Last Edit: February 06, 2017, 04:25:50 pm by connie_rider »
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Offline connie_rider

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Re: ZX-14 or ZX-14R Exhaust for a C-14?
« Reply #81 on: February 06, 2017, 03:22:15 pm »
Did I mention?  I still need a 2" dia Butterfly valve and shaft.     
Have lathe to build my own Housing, shaft, butterfly plate.
But, don't have a mill to do mounting details.
So easiest option is to start with an existing 2" dia Butterfly valve and shaft.

Does anyone have one????

Considered an Automotive Exhaust manifold/ Heat Riser valve, but would be more difficult..

Ride safe, Ted
« Last Edit: February 06, 2017, 04:29:14 pm by connie_rider »
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Offline gPink

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Re: ZX-14 or ZX-14R Exhaust for a C-14?
« Reply #82 on: February 06, 2017, 03:22:42 pm »
Ted put the mouse down and step away from the keyboard..... :truce:

Try to calm yourself....  :rotflmao:

Offline connie_rider

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Re: ZX-14 or ZX-14R Exhaust for a C-14?
« Reply #83 on: February 06, 2017, 04:07:41 pm »
Ted put the mouse down and step away from the keyboard..... :truce:
Try to calm yourself....  :rotflmao:


I'm truuyyyyiinnggg........  {sniff}  :'(

This is the closest I've found to what I want.
It's Stainless steel, Vacuum or boost operated.
But too big. {2 1/2"},  and 2 expensive to modify. {ie; buy and cut to pieces)

http://www.ebay.com/itm/63mm-Close-Style-Vacuum-Activated-Exhaust-Cutout-Dump-Valve-Pressure-about-1-Bar-/201739320476?hash=item2ef899bc9c:g:H0wAAOSw4GVYRRsi&vxp=mtr

Ride safe, Ted
« Last Edit: February 06, 2017, 11:06:37 pm by connie_rider »
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Offline connie_rider

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Re: ZX-14 or ZX-14R Exhaust for a C-14?
« Reply #84 on: February 07, 2017, 03:07:05 pm »
Jim Snyder may have found a source for the valve I need.
    The company he found makes the valves out of SS.
    Some have bearings on the pivot shafts to reduce friction.
    They also build automotive race exhaust's {with valves built in} for tuning/pressure relief.
            hmm, "who'd a thought", adding a valve in the exhaust to adjust back pressure...

Unfortunately, that company is in China...   >:(

Ride safe, Ted

« Last Edit: February 07, 2017, 10:07:01 pm by connie_rider »
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Offline Jim Snyder

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Re: ZX-14 or ZX-14R Exhaust for a C-14?
« Reply #85 on: February 07, 2017, 04:34:06 pm »
Jim Snyder may have found a source for the valve I need.
    The company he found makes the valves out of SS.
    Some have bearings on the pivot shafts to reduce friction.
    They also build automotive race exhaust's {with valves built in} for tuning/pressure relief.
            hmm, "who'd a thought", a valve in the exhaust to adjust back pressure...

Unfortunately, that company is in China...   >:(

Ride safe, Ted

In my best Elvis Presley voice, "Thank ya, thank ya very much". That's why I am the exhaust guru guy. I just hope this project doesn't take you as long
as my 4 into 1 header project did. I still have a pile of leftovers from that project. The struggle is real my brother !!!
"Some days you're the windshield, and some days you're the bug" Get used to it cause thats life !!!

Offline Steve in Sunny Fla

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Re: ZX-14 or ZX-14R Exhaust for a C-14?
« Reply #86 on: February 08, 2017, 04:09:14 pm »
I was sniffin' around the webz, doing some "research" and stumbled upon this, from AreaP

          "  quote:...I'm slightly off-topic here, but what are the chances of an 4-2 AreaP with left-side hanger for the C14 and all of the access features of the 4-2-1?



        Wormie - There is no chance. Sorry.....



    ...thanks for the reply, Kerry...is it no chance at all or no chance right now?...if its no chance at all, can you divulge why there's no chance?...is it because of the physical limitations of the underside that'll compromise accessibility, performance, and aesthetics?....or is it the limited market?....or is it the prohibited expense?...or????

    ...I respectfully ask these questions because there are owners and potential owners out there who desire the aesthetics of a 4-2 for the C14...the lines of the bike beg for it imho...the bike has enough stock hp/tq for some folks like me....I'd be happy with the weight-savings alone of a properly desined aftermarket 4-2...I wished Kawasaki had designed it from the begining to be a 4-2...then I'd just buy your sexy slip-ons...

    ...that being said, I'm glad there are folks like you and your son who are willing to make and actually produce a better performing, lighter weight, and less expensive exhaust system for the the C14 than the factory's heavier and expensive exhaust system ...



Well if it's for you, I could always do a "one-off".... And hey, thank you for the comments.

Before answering, please note - I'm not comparing our system to Muzzy's 4-2. I have nothing but the utmost respect for Rob and have known him since the stone-age. I believe he designed a very well thought out, great looking product for the crowd that desires a dual muffler system. And there are plenty of you out there.

Anyway, reason(s) being; performance, weight, sound, price. "Aesthetics" will always be in the eye of the beholder. Performance - a 4-2 simply will not put out the power and/or overall powerband of a properly designed, merge collector 4-2-1. Although a 4-2-1-2 may work decent, but still not as good. And then you got to get all that mess to fit the bike.... It can be more difficult to map correctly because the left side collector/mid-pipe area is design compromised to get around the drive housing, side stand, and/or centerstand arm. Obviously it will weigh significantly more as well as potentially putting out more heat. The exhaust tone will of course be "different", mostly not as "smooth" sounding.


The R&D goal of this project was performance, weight savings, convenience feature(s) retention, and the highest quality at an affordable price point. That's what we're all about. And that's what you will get from Area P"

  Seemed germaine to this discussion. Steve
C-14 ECU flashing for performance and rideability enhancement
C-10 Carb work , cams, & performance enhancements
 " Modifications for sport-tourers, BY a sport-tourer"
https://sites.google.com/site/shoodabenengineering/home

Offline Jim Snyder

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Re: ZX-14 or ZX-14R Exhaust for a C-14?
« Reply #87 on: February 08, 2017, 09:21:09 pm »
Very good article Steve. I guess its fair to say that sometimes exhaust and performance research really is rocket science.
"Some days you're the windshield, and some days you're the bug" Get used to it cause thats life !!!

Offline MAN OF BLUES

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Re: ZX-14 or ZX-14R Exhaust for a C-14?
« Reply #88 on: February 08, 2017, 11:23:26 pm »
after reading this all, and reflecting back to the laments of the "original" C10, when people were so wanting a single sided exhaust because the dual mufflers were both gaudy, and didn't sound good... I think back... Jim actually sent me one of his fabricated pipes that didn't fit under the plastic, which I had no problem with as I was developing the COGZIlla bike, without plastic... I also have an Ontario header, still unscathed and un used, for fitment onto my C10. I ended up years ago finding a set of SuperTrapp, dueal mufflers, that fit a Zee bike, and fit them up to my C10... they were Louad when the correct amount of "venting discs" were utilized to allow a flow that I found worked.., but still had that "dub-dub..dub-dub" sound I loathed from a dual exhaust bike... I always wanted a single muffler that would flow correctly, and provide a "buh-buh-buh-buh" sound, smoothly, and evenly... again, Jim sent me a nice offcast muffler he had sitting around, which still is in a box.. and will find its way onto COGZilla this year.. all this searching and such, for performance, has me still asking, why... WHY.. did Kaw go to a single muffler system on the C14? IMHO it was evident for torque purposes, and also plausable sound, nice but not annoying.

all the aftermarket slip ons, are nothing more than a muffler they already made, for a prior production bike, ( based on another production bike prior, and prior to that bike), and they tossed it out with adapters and said..."for the C14"..

none of these muffler manufacturers spent one second to manufacture a specific pipe, TUNED to the exhaust produced by the specific bike...
they just re-branded an existing universal piece of hardware, and "called it specific"

My hat is off to Jim, he really did spend a lot of time trying to adapt, and find something to "use" as a replacement for the old C10, but in essence, we all have to experiment, and make the best of it.
C14?
open the door for going backwards, and putting duals on.. we all biotched for 20+ years we couldn't get a decent single pipe.

go figure. :rotflmao: :rotflmao: :rotflmao: :rotflmao: :rotflmao:

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Offline Jim Snyder

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Re: ZX-14 or ZX-14R Exhaust for a C-14?
« Reply #89 on: February 08, 2017, 11:50:27 pm »
 
My hat is off to Jim, he really did spend a lot of time trying to adapt, and find something to "use" as a replacement for the old C10, but in essence, we all have to experiment, and make the best of it.
 :rotflmao: :rotflmao: :rotflmao: :rotflmao: :rotflmao:

Thank you MOB, It really was a labor of love (NOT) cutting and welding all of those pipe pieces and then scraping it and starting over.
and I still have a huge collection of header pieces cluttering my shop. The final prototype of the Contario exhaust is still on my silverbullet. I had it ceramic coated to make it last and it still looks and works great. But like you said experimentation is the key to any successful endeavor. And like I always told folks, don't tell me they "don't make one of those for your bike" cause that just makes me want to make one.
   
"Some days you're the windshield, and some days you're the bug" Get used to it cause thats life !!!

Offline Jim Snyder

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Re: ZX-14 or ZX-14R Exhaust for a C-14?
« Reply #90 on: February 09, 2017, 01:35:21 am »
Ok time for a little reflection. We have to remember that tuning any motorcycle is never a one and done process. And many times
we take simple processes and turn them into difficult ones. You always have to remember that a motorcycle engine is what I like to
call an "air management system". Truthfully that is it in a nut shell. Of course there are other factors involved, fuel, heat, etc. but
we are talking about managing the flow of air through the engine from the air filter intake to the end of the muffler. The more efficiently that air moves through that engine the faster it will go, the more miles per gallon it will get, or the more torque or horsepower it will have. Sometimes we go off the beaten path and find things that work. Take Steve's two minute mod from several years ago. The idea he came up with went against every previously accepted theory of jetting we engine gurus were ever taught. But what happened? I'll tell you what happened it worked. I had a nickname for Steve's 2 min.mod, I called it C.A.M.S. (controlled airflow management system) Pretty catchy huh. Rather than forcing as much air into the engine as possible he controlled the flow and amount of air and made it work better than before. He is doing the same thing now with the C-14 ECU. The engineers at Kawasaki don't always get it right, atleast to our satisfaction that is. But there will always be those of us who push the envelope to see if we can build a better mouse trap. And sometimes the mouse is smarter than we are. But we still have to try right.     
« Last Edit: February 09, 2017, 08:47:39 pm by Jim Snyder »
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Offline connie_rider

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Re: ZX-14 or ZX-14R Exhaust for a C-14?
« Reply #91 on: February 09, 2017, 02:51:45 pm »
Thanks all.    "Good discussion"
 Steve, that is very interesting info!
 MOB, I also prefer a single muffler sound.
 Jim, you sed it all...

My original thought was block off one of the exhaust ports, and install a ZX-14R header on my Connie..
But, I thought,,, hmm,, I wonder why did Kawasaki and Suzuki both choose to put 2 mufflers on their biggest Sport Bikes?

And then, (while I wus thinkin') that "rotten' "Throttle8 sed;
   I see a SISF full Area P system flash with an EXUP churning in your head!!! If you build it--they will come!!
Followed by (an even more rotten) "Gpink", who sed;
    Ted, an interesting writeup....scroll down to the last section titled 'Variable Back-Pressure Exhaust'.

Which brings us to today.  :coffee2::smiley_confused1:

Ride safe, Ted
« Last Edit: February 10, 2017, 07:26:12 pm by connie_rider »
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Offline connie_rider

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Re: ZX-14 or ZX-14R Exhaust for a C-14?
« Reply #92 on: February 10, 2017, 07:59:26 pm »
Ok, another day, more thoughts.   :-[

Steve, MOB and Jim kinda made my point with their posts..
   (before you argue; Think about it)

This discussion is about using a ZX-14R exhaust on a C-14.
The ZX-14R exhaust has 2 mufflers..
    (Some like 2 mufflers, some prefer only 1)

If you choose to use the ZX-14R exhaust and use only 1 muffler.
To do this;
     You can; plug 1 exhaust port.
     You can; remove 1 exhaust port and modify that area to smooth the flow to the right muffler.
       (NOTE: If you do either of these, you "might" be restricting the ZX-14R exhaust too much to allow Max HP.)
"or" You can; install a SS valve (see below) and modify that valve to act as a 'Variable Back-Pressure Exhaust Valve'.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/NEW-Vacuum-Activated-Exhaust-Cutout-2-51MM-Close-Style-Pressure-about-1-BAR-/252699476181?hash=item3ad61000d5:g:zcsAAOSwux5YM-RB&vxp=mtr
To do this you must do a valve modification;
      Valve modification; * remove vacuum mechanism, and replace it with springs. (to hold the valve closed)
                                   * Select springs which will allow valve to open "only" at WOT and high RPM.
                                   * Add an Adjustable/Mechanical stop to limit how far valve opens. (mebbe 20%)


NOTE: If the 'Variable Back-Pressure Exhaust Valve' idea works(?)
         You can; (if you choose) install the second muffler behind the valve for looks/sound control.
         You can: allow the {20% opening} valve to exhaust out a short pipe under the bike.
                        {Sound control might be possible)

Thoughts??
        Let the flames begin!!!

Ride safe, Ted

PS: I fergot to say; (Matt's idea {I think})
If you choose to use the ZX-14R exhaust and use only 1 muffler.
     You can also; remove 1 exhaust port and modify that area to smooth the flow to the right muffler,
          "and/or" increase the diameter of the right port to give you more flow capability.
     
« Last Edit: February 10, 2017, 09:41:15 pm by connie_rider »
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Offline Jim Snyder

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Re: ZX-14 or ZX-14R Exhaust for a C-14?
« Reply #93 on: February 10, 2017, 09:17:08 pm »
Ok here is my thought. The ZX-14 pipe is larger than the C-14. Therefore theoretically it will have more flow than the C-14 pipe. With that in mind there would have to be enough excess flow and back pressure to open said relief valve at WOT. So with a larger header with increased flow characteristics as the ZX-14 pipe has the question is how to determine if there will be enough excess flow. I would hate to see you go through all of this and discover that the ZX pipe flowed so well out the right side thst it would not allow the valve to open. This is just a theory of course. Next.
Forgot to add that this would be even more relative with aftermarket mufflers which flow more freely than stockers.
"Some days you're the windshield, and some days you're the bug" Get used to it cause thats life !!!

Offline connie_rider

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Re: ZX-14 or ZX-14R Exhaust for a C-14?
« Reply #94 on: February 10, 2017, 10:03:37 pm »
Jim, good point's!
      {Particularly about the different Mufflers}     :017:   hmmmmmmm   :sign0137:

I think it's relatively EZ to determine the effects.
   If someone that already has a ZX-14R system would ride to Steve's err someone's place where a dyno is located, and convince that person to do a few dyno runs.
   I'll supply a Port Plug with pressure gage, and might be convinced to buy lunch {or a beer or 3}

Possible Test Sequence;
Run #1; Remove 1 {left} muffler, plug the port, conduct a run and do a plot.. (while observing pressure)
       #2; Partially restrict right muffler, conduct a repeat run, and do a plot.. (while observing pressure)
          NOTE: Run's #1 and #2 could be conducted by simply blocking the left muffler. (But pressure could not be recorded)
       #3; Reinstall left muffler, conduct a run and do a plot..
       #4; Partially restrict both mufflers,  conduct a repeat run, and do a plot..

After runs; compare plots; to see if Torque/HP were effected by changes.
                compare pressures to see if they increased when restriction was added.

NOTE:  "Change" in Torque/HP/pressure/{if available}AFR is all we need to see.
           Ultimate HP/torque/AFR values are unimportant at this time.
            If we see plot/pressure change, we will know that Torque/HP was effected by the changes.
                   {Hopefully, in the way I suspect}

Ride safe, Ted
« Last Edit: February 11, 2017, 03:45:20 am by connie_rider »
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Offline cuda

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Re: ZX-14 or ZX-14R Exhaust for a C-14?
« Reply #95 on: February 11, 2017, 07:21:36 am »
OH BOY! :41:
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It takes 20 years  to build a reputation and 5 minutes to lose it...   - Cog 11405

Offline gPink

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Re: ZX-14 or ZX-14R Exhaust for a C-14?
« Reply #96 on: February 11, 2017, 12:08:05 pm »
The blue pill, Ted. Take the blue pill.  ;)

Offline connie_rider

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Re: ZX-14 or ZX-14R Exhaust for a C-14?
« Reply #97 on: February 11, 2017, 02:20:47 pm »
Sorry guys. 
I was a research Tech for most of my career.
Part of that Career involved Dyno's and vehicle testing.

So when Jim asked, the question is how to determine if there will be enough excess flow. , my twisted mind spit out an answer.

Ride safe, Ted
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Offline gPink

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Re: ZX-14 or ZX-14R Exhaust for a C-14?
« Reply #98 on: February 11, 2017, 02:26:43 pm »
Don't be sorry ,Ted. We just don't want you to hurt yourself.  :beerchug:

Offline connie_rider

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Re: ZX-14 or ZX-14R Exhaust for a C-14?
« Reply #99 on: February 12, 2017, 11:38:58 pm »
Ok, another day, more thoughts.   :??::

First of all, the lack of replies seem to indicate,
 Most think I'm out of my mind.
 Lot's don't think it will work and not worth talking about.
 Some, are thinking about it, and not getting involved.
 Many don't have a clue what I'm talking about . (or care)

Is anybody out there????

Ride safe, Ted
14 Connie (Traveler II) / 03 Connie (Buddy)
Gone but not forgotten; 87 and 00 Connies..

If your not already a COGger, "consider becoming one".
Help us make "OtP" possible again!!