Author Topic: ZX-14 or ZX-14R Exhaust for a C-14?  (Read 30013 times)

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Offline mattchewn

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Re: ZX-14 or ZX-14R Exhaust for a C-14?
« Reply #125 on: February 21, 2017, 06:54:56 pm »
Not concerned with turbulence?
Fais,
there won't be much turbulence on Teds' bike. he never makes it into 2nd gear..   :nananana:
Barely a light breeze i'd say!

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Offline connie_rider

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Re: ZX-14 or ZX-14R Exhaust for a C-14?
« Reply #126 on: February 21, 2017, 10:16:42 pm »
Matt, your back!   I wuz afraid I'd scared you away with the {Painful but true} I'm better looking note.   :P

Back to your note; You know good and well I do get into the higher gears.
Problem is, I've been known to get into the higher gears, before I have much speed.
 So {unlike you} I don't need top end POWER, as much as I need low end TORQUE!!
  (PS: {Occasionally} I do have a wild hair and wind her up.)
           On those rare occasions, I want some of your top end power...

Fais/Twin: Thank you for your notes. They are helping me refine my idea.
Yes; I'm concerned with turbulence.     
When the valve is closed and all the flow is going thru the single/right muffler, I think turbulence will develop inside the collector {at the bottom of the left port}.
As flow increases I think that turbulence will cause back pressure.

I have plans to smooth the flow across that area.
    (** Not sure of details yet as I need the valve to determine that step, below is a partial explanation).

I'm hoping that when the valve opens,,,, that turbulence {and some of the total flow} will move out the left port.
I'm not particularly concerned with turbulence at the valve itself, because the flow will be minimal.
  {If turbulence/pressure increases at the valve, it will adjust for it by opening more}. [I hope]  :-[

Attached is a Back Pressure video of an X pipe. View it and see the different flow characteristics at low and high flow.
      The flow thru the collector and into the ports of this header are similar to an X pipe.
       {on this header, the collector is divided into two separate tubes by a dividing plate, and the flow exits thru 2 ports}
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Naq5Bcl7z-E

** My plan is to smooth the flow by placing a plate at the "bottom" of the left port.
  {That plate will direct flow to the right port and {somehow?} allow pressure and some flow to pass thru the plate when the valve opens}

Yes, I know I'm out of my mind.
    But, I'm having fun.

Ride safe, Ted
« Last Edit: February 21, 2017, 11:02:17 pm by connie_rider »
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Offline Fais

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Re: ZX-14 or ZX-14R Exhaust for a C-14?
« Reply #127 on: February 22, 2017, 12:31:16 pm »
I think you are in your mind. SittIng around watching Judge Judy and The Today Show woukd likely drive you out of your mind  :rotflmao:

Ill be in the garagae today too - check out the track day thread between drawing up your mad plans(!)


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Offline connie_rider

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Re: ZX-14 or ZX-14R Exhaust for a C-14?
« Reply #128 on: February 22, 2017, 02:56:34 pm »
Judge Judy and the Today Show aren't that bad.
But, Judy insists on the Soap Opera's.
   Those make me crazy!
      {Luckily I can lust after the actresses on them}.  :great:

Today, I'm gonna do yard work... ughhhhh :-[

I've been watching many of the YouTube video's on exhaust and backpressure.
As Steve said, too much back pressure is bad.
But, too little can be worse. {because it kills power too. Particularly low end power}.

My mission is to find the ideal...   >:D

Ride safe, Ted

PS: Enjoy the track day!!    I really wish I could be there!
      Hans and Gretcherin arrive the day after, and I need to stay home {to get everything ready for their arrival}.
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Offline Steve in Sunny Fla

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Re: ZX-14 or ZX-14R Exhaust for a C-14?
« Reply #129 on: February 22, 2017, 03:24:33 pm »


I've been watching many of the YouTube video's on exhaust and backpressure.
As Steve said, too much back pressure is bad.
But, too little can be worse. {because it kills power too. Particularly low end power}.


  Well that's not exactly what I said, and I think the distinction matters. ANY back pressure when you're trying to maximize power is bad. Steve
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Offline Steve in Sunny Fla

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Re: ZX-14 or ZX-14R Exhaust for a C-14?
« Reply #130 on: February 22, 2017, 03:26:24 pm »
Ted, since you have the time, explore the concept of passive egr because of low exhaust flow velocity. Steve
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Offline connie_rider

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Re: ZX-14 or ZX-14R Exhaust for a C-14?
« Reply #131 on: February 22, 2017, 03:54:30 pm »
Will do.
Not exactly sure where/how to find it?
Hints?

Ride safe, Ted
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Offline Steve in Sunny Fla

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Re: ZX-14 or ZX-14R Exhaust for a C-14?
« Reply #132 on: February 22, 2017, 03:56:21 pm »
Will do.
Not exactly sure where/how to find it?
Hints?

Ride safe, Ted

 google maybe... or read all the technical engine building / tuning books i've read over the last 30+ years - Steve
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Offline Steve in Sunny Fla

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Re: ZX-14 or ZX-14R Exhaust for a C-14?
« Reply #133 on: February 22, 2017, 04:55:27 pm »
motor controlled electric cutout

 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tPci1o6iiCE

Steve

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Offline Steve in Sunny Fla

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Re: ZX-14 or ZX-14R Exhaust for a C-14?
« Reply #134 on: February 22, 2017, 05:18:35 pm »
Typical harley guys... using Teds idea to make more noise. Sheesh.

   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AOM0yhEEQcg

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Offline connie_rider

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Re: ZX-14 or ZX-14R Exhaust for a C-14?
« Reply #135 on: February 22, 2017, 06:31:17 pm »
Steve, I'll never get that far.
I admit, I'm not a tuner, I'm a parts changer/fabricator.
Not looking to maximize power. Looking to improve power over the power band.
ie; Hope to install a ZX header, keep similar low end of a  stock ZG and gain some top end with the ZX header.
    My thought is use only 1 muffler {to help maintain torque},
       and use the valve {to open if more flow is needed at WOT/high RPM}
    The spring controlled valve is being used temporarily; for ease of installation, and to let me know if back pressure is
      developed by the single muffler.
   If I see indications of improved power,,, the spring will be replaced with an electric Solenoid.

This is similar concept to what parts changers do when they buy a Area P Full system.
  They bolt on the new system and gain some power. (Improved but not optimum)
   You've been able to adjust the ECU with your Flash {on the Full Area P / etc} to optimize the performance.

Here is the valve I ordered.
Note: A solenoid can eventually fit where the vacuum port is setting.
          http://www.ebay.com/itm/262855594366

Ride safe, Ted

PS: The video's posted are where I started when I was looking for a valve.
      These systems dump flow, but do not control how much is dumped.
      I hope to determine how much should be dumped.
« Last Edit: February 22, 2017, 06:35:14 pm by connie_rider »
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Offline Steve in Sunny Fla

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Re: ZX-14 or ZX-14R Exhaust for a C-14?
« Reply #136 on: February 22, 2017, 06:37:51 pm »
  " Not looking to maximize power. Looking to improve power over the power band."

Ted - to me it's not semantics, I feel that if you're going to improve something, you ought to try to maximize the gains. So in my mind maximizing in this case doesn't just mean top end, though that is what I was referring to a couple posts back. I mean seriously, if you're gonna do it, do it right. explore all the power gains. You have time between Judge Judy and Dr Phil  ;) (are those shows even still on?) Steve
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Offline cuda

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Re: ZX-14 or ZX-14R Exhaust for a C-14?
« Reply #137 on: February 22, 2017, 11:26:41 pm »
Judge Judy has a penthouse in town

She makes serious money ...

Why,  I'll never know.


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Offline connie_rider

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Re: ZX-14 or ZX-14R Exhaust for a C-14?
« Reply #138 on: February 22, 2017, 11:58:38 pm »
I agree with you Steve and will do all I can to get the power curve I want.
What I meant was I'm not concerned with peak HP as much as smooth usable power.
NOTE:  I'll tune it to my optimum.
           I realize that my optimum is not your optimum, {as I don't have your experience and equipment}

Right now, all I can do is do research, develop plans, discuss Idea's, and order parts.
I've already done all the machining I can.
Some material for the lathe and the valve is currently on order.
As soon as the valve arrives, I machine the steel, and find a way to mount it, and then I get to figure out how to make it operate.

At some point, I'll install the header, and start tinkering there.
  Step 1 is determining if 1 muffler is better or worse than 2 mufflers.
    Assuming I need more flow at WOT/High RPM's,,
  Step 2 is finding out if I can make a valve open when I want it to.
  Step 3 is adjustments.
  Step 4 or 5, or 6, or etc,,, is where I can start final improvement's.

Until then, I plan to ride the bike to a few rallies with your new Evo Flash.

Ride safe, Ted

Yes Judge Judy and Dr Phil are on every day. <gloom>
Judy watches them daily and wants me there with her..  :-[
   I hide at the computer {writing long notes}, in the garage {tinkering}, and I even occasionally go for a ride.

« Last Edit: February 23, 2017, 06:41:40 pm by connie_rider »
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Offline Grendel

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Re: ZX-14 or ZX-14R Exhaust for a C-14?
« Reply #139 on: February 25, 2017, 05:11:09 am »
Would a PCV with the auto tune addon be able to read the difference in pressure and auto modify the A/F ratio to keep everything stable?  I'm not sure how well the PCV is with automatically adjusting the fuel map on the fly, or if it's a horrible idea outright and it should be tuned on a dyno and that's that.

Ryan

Offline connie_rider

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Re: ZX-14 or ZX-14R Exhaust for a C-14?
« Reply #140 on: February 25, 2017, 01:57:10 pm »
I don't know anything about a PCV/Autotune, and don't plan to go that way.
I'm looking for a mod that others could do on the cheap.
Hoping that one of Steve's Flashes work with the ZX-14R exhaust.

Right now, I have his Evo Flash. It's tuned to keep smooth low end (etc) power..
I love it!!!
But I suspect his Full Area P Flash would be a closer match.
Will find out someday...

Back Pressure Discussion thought.
My son recently removed his stock exhaust and installed a Gibson Cat-back system on his 2014 GMC Truck.
Truck goes like stink after the install but he mentioned he gave up some low end torque and didn't like the sound when cruising.
Told me that many in his group, go back and reinstall "the valve" to get the torque back..
I thought "VALVE"????  I looked at his old system to understand what he was talking about...
Turns out that GM Trucks have a spring controlled butterfly valve in the system.
That valve controls all flow thru the system at all times.
{I think it mostly comes into play when the truck drops back to 4 cylinder cruising}

Thoughts??

Ride safe, Ted
« Last Edit: February 28, 2017, 07:47:16 pm by connie_rider »
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Offline connie_rider

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Re: ZX-14 or ZX-14R Exhaust for a C-14?
« Reply #141 on: February 28, 2017, 07:50:40 pm »
Back Pressure Discussion thought.
My son recently removed his stock exhaust and installed a Gibson Cat-back system on his 2014 GMC Truck.
Truck goes like stink after the install but he mentioned he gave up some low end torque and didn't like the sound when cruising.
Told me that many in his group, go back and reinstall "the valve" to get the torque back..
I thought "VALVE"????  I looked at his old system to understand what he was talking about...
Turns out that GM Trucks have a spring controlled butterfly valve in the system.
That valve controls all flow thru the system at all times.
{I think it mostly comes into play when the truck drops back to 4 cylinder cruising}


This morning, Aaron had the valve re-installed in his exhaust system.
Installed it just before the muffler.

He said torque and drivability immediately improved....

Not sure about WOT yet, but seems to be the same...

Ride safe, Ted

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Offline Rasmith

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Re: ZX-14 or ZX-14R Exhaust for a C-14?
« Reply #142 on: February 28, 2017, 09:03:52 pm »
A lot of posts to go through so I'm just posting this without going through the history of this thread Ted.

I have 2008 ZX14 Headers. These have slightly larger tubes. It does have a CAT.
I had the 2008 Mufflers but didn't like all the chrome so went with a new set of 2014 ZX14R take-offs. I didn't notice any performance gains which met my expectations. What I didn't expect was how much smoother it feels.

Center Stand foot peg is a clearance issue and needs to be addressed.
Unfortunately I understand Muzzy is not around so the remade center stand and left hanger may be a challenge to get.

Steve, I was planning on the evolution flash but not sure if this configuration meets your specs.
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Offline Fais

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Re: ZX-14 or ZX-14R Exhaust for a C-14?
« Reply #143 on: April 06, 2017, 01:57:51 am »
Ted's been playing in the garage again ....



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Offline connie_rider

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Re: ZX-14 or ZX-14R Exhaust for a C-14?
« Reply #144 on: April 06, 2017, 02:34:33 am »
Machined the adapter and valve.
Installed them on the left exhaust port.

Ride safe, Ted
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Re: ZX-14 or ZX-14R Exhaust for a C-14?
« Reply #145 on: May 01, 2017, 04:08:40 pm »
New discovery.
I picked up the ZX-14 Mufflers from Rasmith. {to install for this test}
After I got them home, I discovered that they don't fit the exhaust ports on my (2012 ZX-14R) headers.

Apparently, Kawasaki made the exhaust ports larger. (Starting in 2012).
          2006 - 2011: O.D. is 2" (??)
          2012 - 2017: O.D. is 2 1/8"

I also discovered; that the I.D. of Rasmith's (2008 ZX-14) muffler :'(are too small. NOT the muffler itself.
                           So, I can install C-14 or 2014-2017 ZX-14R gaskets {in the 2008 mufflers} to solve the problem.
                           &  {If I build this and opt not to use a Left Muffler}, I can use my Area P Slip-On for the right side..

Ride safe, Ted

UPDATE: The set of ZX-14 mufflers were offered by Rick Davis (Rasmith) to raise $$ for OtP.
             I was working on installing ZX-14R headers' on my bike, so I bought them.
               {I sent the $$ to "OtP" donations}...

             It appears that I don't need to use Rasmith's 2008 ZX-14 Mufflers.
              So,  If someone else is interested in the Mufflers, contact me. 
                 I'll sell them for a $100+ donation to "OtP". (plus shipping)
                 These mufflers are the chrome 2008 ZX-14 Mufflers.
                 They look like new!!!
« Last Edit: May 01, 2017, 04:51:54 pm by connie_rider »
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Offline gPink

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Re: ZX-14 or ZX-14R Exhaust for a C-14?
« Reply #146 on: May 01, 2017, 04:17:12 pm »
So how many cats are you going to run?

Offline connie_rider

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Re: ZX-14 or ZX-14R Exhaust for a C-14?
« Reply #147 on: May 01, 2017, 04:34:10 pm »
So, how many cats are you going to run?

None;
   The 2012 ZX-14R Headers do not have Cat's...
   Plan A: The 2008 ZX-14 mufflers do not have Cat's...
   Plan B: My {ZG-1400} Area P Slip-On does not have Cat's..

Rasmith has 2008 ZX-14 headers with Cats on his bike,,, and some black ZX-14 Mufflers that (I think) might also have Cats.
He may have 3 Cat's??   Sed it runs fine...

Ride safe, Ted
« Last Edit: May 01, 2017, 04:54:30 pm by connie_rider »
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Offline gPink

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Re: ZX-14 or ZX-14R Exhaust for a C-14?
« Reply #148 on: May 01, 2017, 04:49:16 pm »
Thanks, that's what I was wondering.

Offline connie_rider

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Re: ZX-14 or ZX-14R Exhaust for a C-14?
« Reply #149 on: May 01, 2017, 04:57:46 pm »
Still seeking information;
    Has anyone preformed Dyno Runs on their Connie after installing ZX-14 headers??

As I understand; Several have installed the Headers (and think it runs better), but none of preformed Dyno Runs?

Ride safe, Ted
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