Author Topic: %$@#@ CLUTCH!  (Read 10193 times)

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Offline rickm_tx

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Re: %$@#@ CLUTCH!
« Reply #50 on: March 16, 2015, 01:59:26 am »
WillyP,

I have engrained the diagram you posted to memory, my friend.  Not only was that interesting, but gives me a whole new perspective and understanding of things.

Thank You.

BTW - what was so wrong with good, old fashioned, reliable cables???????
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Offline Tennzappa

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Re: %$@#@ CLUTCH!
« Reply #51 on: March 16, 2015, 09:02:33 am »
 Rick I had the same problem you are having with the same symptoms, the bike worked then it didnt cooled down worked for a while then didnt until problem got worse and worse. This went on until I couldnt ride a mile until losing all clutch and 5K RPM was the limit as well where it slipped. A flush of fluid got it going for a bit but then same thing would happen again. While cleaning the slave cylinder I saw a tiny slit in the seal and thought it was way too small to cause any trouble so I cleaned it and started to ride again but the problem came back . You can search the forum for "Need help Quickly" to find the post on my problem. My connie was a 87 with 40 K on her at the time.

 Then I went ahead and bought the rebuild kit to replace the piston seal; the the bike has worked perfect ever since. One tip I read from Steve is sunny Florida was when changing the slave cylinder too fill it up with fluid before assembling to make bleeding easier otherwise there will be a ton of air in the system.

 You may want to try pulling the slave cylinder off and examine the seal to inspect the rubber for tears making sure everything is spic and span even a tiny hole or tear is enough to cause the problem. Did you inspect the slave cylinder closely that you bought from eBay?  My guess is you will find debris has found its way down to the cylinder or the seal itself is damaged.

 Good luck getting your connie going she can be frustrating but will please you to no end once she has some TLC.

Offline SteveJ.

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Re: %$@#@ CLUTCH!
« Reply #52 on: March 16, 2015, 10:52:42 pm »
Quote

BTW - what was so wrong with good, old fashioned, reliable cables???????

Nothing wrong with a maintained hydraulic clutch. And let's not forget about brake hydraulics.
Yeah, if you want true ram air tuning, you better be willing to ram some air! (SiSF)
Steve J  Tavares, FL, one of the Floriduh Steves
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Offline rickm_tx

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Re: %$@#@ CLUTCH!
« Reply #53 on: March 16, 2015, 11:44:30 pm »


Here's to remembering simpler times (sigh).



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Offline Mcfly

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Re: %$@#@ CLUTCH!
« Reply #54 on: March 17, 2015, 12:04:27 am »
Don't we miss them....   ;)



Hydraulics might seem bit more fiddly at times, but when it's workin' right....   :)

Bleed...bleed...bleed... then get back to work on that clutch!   :rotflmao:  I'm sure you'll get it!!   :great:
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Offline gPink

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Re: %$@#@ CLUTCH!
« Reply #55 on: March 17, 2015, 12:07:41 am »
yeah...

Offline JimBob

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Re: %$@#@ CLUTCH!
« Reply #56 on: March 17, 2015, 05:41:41 pm »
Quote

BTW - what was so wrong with good, old fashioned, reliable cables???????

Nothing wrong with a maintained hydraulic clutch. And let's not forget about brake hydraulics.

Yep - leverage and feel.

I had a car that used a clutch cable with a relatively high-load (don't remember exactly, but I believe a 900-lb) pressure plate. Whoo-wee, your leg got tired FAST from shifting that beastie. (Manufacturer used a too-small clutch disc and wrong gear ratio for first, so it needed a heavy plate to compensate).

With hydraulics it's a lot easier to configure a ratio between the clutch pedal and the slave, without using a long shift fork. In this car example, there was simply no way to put in a long enough shift fork and still have enough travel in the clutch pedal to actually shift. Hydraulics give you more options.

Also hydraulics allow for a smoother feel/better control over the shift, especially as pressure plate loads increase.

Hydraulic systems are fairly simple, and require less maintenance (in my experience) than a cable does. I've seen numerous cars with the clutch hydraulics never touched in 100k miles+.

Offline connie_rider

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Re: %$@#@ CLUTCH!
« Reply #57 on: April 04, 2015, 12:14:54 am »
rickm_tx   What's the latest?

Ride safe, Ted
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Offline rickm_tx

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Re: %$@#@ CLUTCH!
« Reply #58 on: April 07, 2015, 06:01:09 pm »
An update to this ongoing problem -

I finally managed to remove the slave cylinder unit attached to the engine case.  I did this at a point in which the clutch was due to start slipping any moment.  What I found was the cylinder was well extended when relaxed (clutch lever not depressed).  Pulling the clutch lever in extended the cylinder further and then it would return to the previous, already extended position.  At this point, I did what  I always do - bleed the clutch line.  Not much, just open the valve and let the fluid squirt out a bit.  After doing this, bleeding the line, I used my hand to push the cylinder in to it's completely relaxed position, which was quite a bit different than the previous relaxed  position with the cylinder already extended.

So, in a nutshell, the problem is with the slave cylinder.  What the problem is, exactly, I don't know.  I did not know how to disassemble the slave unit any further in order to examine the problem more closely.  My guess is that something is blocked - not allowing the hydraulic fluid to return completely.

The next step will be to tear the slave unit apart.  Just looking at the unit, it is hard to tell how the thing comes apart so I will pull out the trusty Clymer bible and check.

And that's all I know to tell you at this point.  I will update everyone as soon as I open the slave cylinder unit and have a look-see.


Rick
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Offline mattchewn

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Re: %$@#@ CLUTCH!
« Reply #59 on: April 07, 2015, 06:24:47 pm »
Rick,
I don't agree that the problem is definitely with the slave cylinder. The slave cylinder is forced back/retracted normally by the pressure from the clutch plate. If the cylinder did not have a load connected to it there is no way for it to retract on its' own.  When it does not go back it means there is a restriction to fluid flow. Plain and simple.
What I am going to break down here for you is applied typically to diagnose a sticking caliper versus a bad M/C or even a bad brake hose. This is the simplest way to narrow down EXACTLY where the issue lies with your hydraulics.  This works on ANY simple hydraulic circuit like brakes and clutch systems.
When the slave was overextended the first bleeder screw to open would be the master cylinder screw. This will tell you if the blockage is at the M/C or further downline.  If the slave retracts the problem lies in the M/C somewhere. 
If it does not retract, the next bleeder would be the slave cylinder. If it retracts at this point then the problem lies in the hydraulic HOSE!!  I have done this same test dozens of times to solve brake dragging problems on cars. It works EVERY TIME!  The results cannot lie.
HTH,
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Offline connie_rider

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Re: %$@#@ CLUTCH!
« Reply #60 on: April 07, 2015, 06:34:58 pm »
Matt, That's a Good plan.

If the hose is restricted, opening the Master Cylinder Screw wouldn't let the slave cylinder retract.
If the hose is not restricted, opening the Master Cylinder Screw would let the slave cylinder retract.
If the Slave cylinder screw allows it to retract, the Slave Cylinder is ok, and the problem is hydraulic.
If the Slave cylinder Screw does not allow it to retract, the problem is in the slave cylinder. (Probably corrosion).

I think I have an old Clutch Hose if he needs a Clutch Hose, but I suspect the Mater Cylinder.
But, while the fluid is drained, I would rebuild the slave cylinder, just to be sure it is ok.

Ride safe, Ted

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Offline dan4aspen

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Re: %$@#@ CLUTCH!
« Reply #61 on: April 07, 2015, 07:09:04 pm »
Rick, have you rebuilt the slave cylinder, or just cleaned it?  Murphs sells a rebuild kit which includes the spring.  If the spring is wearing out, will not engage, disengage properly.  Along with what Matt just said. 
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Offline WillyP

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Re: %$@#@ CLUTCH!
« Reply #62 on: April 08, 2015, 10:50:32 am »
What Matt said. Stop guessing and diagnose. A slave cylinder is a very simple component. There isn't much that can go wrong with it. To take it apart, just clean it best you can then pull or pump the piston out.

Inside it probably looks like this:



Clean it with a scuffy pad:



When you are done it should look like this:



Then flush it out by pumping fluid through the line by squeezing the lever.
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pics

Offline SteveJ.

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Re: %$@#@ CLUTCH!
« Reply #63 on: April 08, 2015, 12:29:58 pm »
This is getting to be a long thread, so I'm not going to read through it all. Rick, have you ascertained with absolute certainty that the small hole in the bottom of the master cylinder is not plugged? Restriction of this hole will cause the symptoms you have and is the most common issue.
Yeah, if you want true ram air tuning, you better be willing to ram some air! (SiSF)
Steve J  Tavares, FL, one of the Floriduh Steves
'15 Versys650LT, '98 KLR650, (back home), '99 C-10, 234k miles sold
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Offline rickm_tx

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Re: %$@#@ CLUTCH!
« Reply #64 on: February 18, 2016, 04:09:37 pm »

so the problem ended up being....

thought I'd dredge this old thread up to let you guys know what the final outcome was, and that would be.....it works.  Yes.  The clutch is fine and is as strong as an ox.  What did I do?  Started upshifting without the clutch.  Seems that does wonders for whatever ails your clutch.

kiddin.

I don't know.  After a year of bleeding the clutch line every 1-7 days, the problem one day just dissappeared.  Could be pbfoot quit stuffing pins in his voodoo clutch doll he made of my bike, dunno.  People get jealous like that.

My guess is that it was the slave cylinder all this while.  A sticky section that, over time with normal daily use, polished itself enough to eliminate the problem, and a problem it was friends.

So no, did not replace the clutch (as suggested), star springs (as suggested), master cylinder (as suggested)...basically, I did nothing.

And that is why I love my bike.  Give it enough time and it will fix itself.  This is the 2nd major problem I lifted not a finger to fix and went away.  The other problem was a completely blocked low speed jet.  Was completely missing a piston (below 5K rpm) for about a week and a half - waiting for enough time to take the carbs apart and address the matter when one day....poof.  Problem gone.

Yeah.  I love this thing.

And clutchless shifting.  I love that too.  I think it adds 10mph to my top end....just sayin.

And mad max burnouts the day before I change the rear tire.


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Offline LHartman

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Re: %$@#@ CLUTCH!
« Reply #65 on: February 18, 2016, 04:53:01 pm »
I last the exact same problem just recently.  I pretty much changed everything and still had the same issue of clutch slipping when getting hot.  The end result was a simple fix.  Bleed, bleed, bleed,bleed the clutch.  I though I had all the air out, but I didn't. 

If you are using speed bleeders, then I would do it manually.  I had speed bleeders and they did allow some air back into the system.  I probably had a bad one, but still I would just do it the old fashion way.

THIS!  I had the same problem.  Thought I had it cured with changing everything out, but still had air in the line.  Make sure the small pinhole in your reservoir is not plugged as well.
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Offline rickm_tx

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Re: %$@#@ CLUTCH!
« Reply #66 on: February 19, 2016, 03:04:48 pm »
In all fairness, there were people who suggested the slave cylinder, but I ruled that out since I did a complete tear down / clean up and polish.

The problem was, I was not aggressive enough with the polishing.  I had a similar issue with the rear brake in as much as I was eating brake pads because the pistons were not relaxing enough (another thread here with pics).  With them, I used 2000 grit wet/dry, which is actually polishing them, and then buffed them using jewelers rouge (white).  It worked fine.  It probably would have also worked with the slave cylinder.

But what I can tell you is that the section of the piston that caused the problem only looked discolored.  Feeling it revealed nothing - the difference is that critical between smooth enough to operate correctly and sticking.

The tell tale was that the clutch would not engage until the very end of the travel.  The slightest pressure on the lever would send the engine to redline, almost.
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