Author Topic: 2004 C10 smoking heavily under acceleration  (Read 1501 times)

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Offline Bikerman

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2004 C10 smoking heavily under acceleration
« on: October 03, 2018, 12:20:07 pm »
Guys, I bought a particularly nice 04' Concours this weekend with 38K miles, but it can't be ridden due to excessive exhaust smoke. Here are some particulars, and maybe you can offer some ideas? Otherwise I will be breaking it for parts.


-bike looks well cared for and exceptionally maintained for year
-bike starts quickly and easily on choke when cold
-idles well off choke after about a minute
-might stand a good valve adjust
-oil drained and examined. Only 2 qts came out (inc filter) but it looked pretty clean. No particulates.
-refilled with the proper grade of dino oil and filter
-removed, examined and reinstalled cam tensioner (small spring was crooked)
-started....might be a little quieter now
-no real smoke at idle
-when revved and warm, it smokes profusely
-took it for a 1/2 mile spin. Runs generally OK, but the plume behind me every time I accelerated was massive
-back into the garage, oil dripping from exhaust unions

Regardless of how nice, I know an 04' C10 isn't worth too much, and certainly not worth rebuilding the engine as far as my time and money are concerned. Does anyone here have experience or insight as to what may be causing the oil smoking? Something cheaper and easier than a dropped valve (remember-upper end noise) or possibly rings? What does it sound like to you?

Thank you!


           
 

 
« Last Edit: October 20, 2018, 12:51:36 am by Bikerman »

Offline Mettler1

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Re: 2004 C10 smoking heavily under acceleration
« Reply #1 on: October 03, 2018, 12:43:08 pm »
  I have to ask. Did you remove 2 drain plugs from the crank case? If not you still had some oil left in the crank case. If you refilled with the recommend amount of oil you probably over filled the crank case. Put the bike on the center stand and fire up the bike until the cooling fan comes on. Shut down and leave it set for a half hour or so. Check the sight glass. It should show oil 2/3 on the sight glass.


   I would suggest you drain the oil from BOTH drain plugs and see of you have more than 3 quarts in the crank case.
'94 Concours 115,000 miles-- 7th gear,2MM,KB fork brace,Over flowtubes,Stick coils,Tcro shifter,GPS,SiSF'sTorque cams,SPOOKFAK,block off plates, SS brake & clutch lines,KB risers, FENDA EXTENDA, emulators, SiSF carb Spa, Delkevic exhaust, Murphs' knee savers +grips, etc

Offline DC Concours

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Re: 2004 C10 smoking heavily under acceleration
« Reply #2 on: October 03, 2018, 12:43:21 pm »
As he said...Did you drain oil from BOTH drain plugs and filter?



My window looks full at 2.5qts. I ignore my window. It's wrong.
« Last Edit: October 03, 2018, 12:46:47 pm by DC Concours »

Offline Bud

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Re: 2004 C10 smoking heavily under acceleration
« Reply #3 on: October 03, 2018, 12:47:45 pm »
I've only had one experience with massive amounts of smoke and oil coming out of the exhaust.  1998 Dodge neon with a broken piston ring.  There are plenty of people that will comment later that have much more technical knowledge/experience than I.  A replacement head from ebay wouldn't cost much if it's a problem in the head.  Rings wouldn't be that big a deal as long as there isn't a bunch of internal damage.  Much of the decision whether or not to fix, depends on if you can do this yourself.  A shop would probably rape you or just turn down the job.  Good luck!  Others will chime in soon I"m sure.

Offline Bud

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Re: 2004 C10 smoking heavily under acceleration
« Reply #4 on: October 03, 2018, 12:49:17 pm »
  I have to ask. Did you remove 2 drain plugs from the crank case? If not you still had some oil left in the crank case. If you refilled with the recommend amount of oil you probably over filled the crank case. Put the bike on the center stand and fire up the bike until the cooling fan comes on. Shut down and leave it set for a half hour or so. Check the sight glass. It should show oil 2/3 on the sight glass.


   I would suggest you drain the oil from BOTH drain plugs and see of you have more than 3 quarts in the crank case.
Good catch!

Offline DC Concours

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Re: 2004 C10 smoking heavily under acceleration
« Reply #5 on: October 03, 2018, 12:51:38 pm »
Why would you ever buy a bike with so much engine smoke unless it was 250 bucks and you wanted it as a project from the getgo?  :-[ :-[

Offline who me?

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Re: 2004 C10 smoking heavily under acceleration
« Reply #6 on: October 03, 2018, 01:06:02 pm »
here ya go
I have no idea about anything.
95 C10 The Mule
02 C10 parts are parts
08 FJR Self identifies as a C13

Offline jettawreck

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Re: 2004 C10 smoking heavily under acceleration
« Reply #7 on: October 03, 2018, 01:08:42 pm »
Why would you ever buy a bike with so much engine smoke unless it was 250 bucks and you wanted it as a project from the getgo?  :-[ :-[

I've bought lots of "projects" (mostly snowmobiles, Great White North area) that turn out to be parts machines and some that were easy fixes. Made decent cash on some. Depending on what he paid for it (his own business), in good condition the sum of just the plastics could well be worth more than the price of admission. Winter is coming. Not such a bad time for a fix or parts project if you have the time/space/interest.
Snowmobiles, I have a bunch.
Motorcycles-I haven't had anything except dirtbikes 30 years ago, so this will be all new to me.
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2004 Honda ST1300-the current mule.

Offline Mettler1

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Re: 2004 C10 smoking heavily under acceleration
« Reply #8 on: October 03, 2018, 01:10:40 pm »
Why would you ever buy a bike with so much engine smoke unless it was 250 bucks and you wanted it as a project from the getgo?  :-[ :-[


   I don't think it smoked until he did the oil change. I'm just guessing he overfilled because he only removed 1 drain plug and still had oil in the crankcase when he refilled with 3 Qts  of oil. There was probably another qt still in the crankcase for a total of 4 qts. Too much oil!!
'94 Concours 115,000 miles-- 7th gear,2MM,KB fork brace,Over flowtubes,Stick coils,Tcro shifter,GPS,SiSF'sTorque cams,SPOOKFAK,block off plates, SS brake & clutch lines,KB risers, FENDA EXTENDA, emulators, SiSF carb Spa, Delkevic exhaust, Murphs' knee savers +grips, etc

Offline Mettler1

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Re: 2004 C10 smoking heavily under acceleration
« Reply #9 on: October 03, 2018, 02:11:16 pm »
   Here is a lot of info for you to look at along with some videos.

            https://sites.google.com/site/shoodabenengineering/

   

     If you C10 is due for a valve adjustment it can be more noisey than normal.
« Last Edit: October 03, 2018, 02:36:27 pm by Mettler1 »
'94 Concours 115,000 miles-- 7th gear,2MM,KB fork brace,Over flowtubes,Stick coils,Tcro shifter,GPS,SiSF'sTorque cams,SPOOKFAK,block off plates, SS brake & clutch lines,KB risers, FENDA EXTENDA, emulators, SiSF carb Spa, Delkevic exhaust, Murphs' knee savers +grips, etc

Offline works4me

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Re: 2004 C10 smoking heavily under acceleration
« Reply #10 on: October 03, 2018, 02:17:15 pm »
 “Smoke” is vague and ambiguous.
What color is the smoke: white, blue or black?

Offline Bikerman

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Re: 2004 C10 smoking heavily under acceleration
« Reply #11 on: October 03, 2018, 04:18:32 pm »
Thanks for the input so far. Here is a little more info:

1.) I removed both the main drain plug and oil filter plug/shaft (and removed the oil filter)
2.) 2 quarts came out of the main plug, and about four tablespoons out of the oil filter plug/shaft area
3.) If I missed another plug and retained a bunch of oil, please let me know! Over-filling would sure be an easy and welcome solution.
4.) Since I only put 3 quarts back in with a filter change, I assumed that I under-filled it slightly, but haven't actually placed it yet back on the center stand to re-check the sight glass level after running it.
4.) Yes, the bike smoked and was loading oil into the exhaust when I bought it, even though the oil was below the minimum in the sight glass. Yes-I bought it this way, as;
5.) I buy, service and sell several bikes every year, have a workshop, tools, a lift and lots of space to work. 
6.) What I paid for this bike was reflective of the unit's value assembled, but with a bad motor, so I was willing to take the risk. Broken down and sold as "parts", it is actually worth about twice to three times what I paid for it, but that is obviously a (much) more labor intensive process, but one I have done several times.
7.) The bike is so sweet looking, low miles and in such excellent condition otherwise it seems kind of criminal to break it for parts now. Excellent recent repaint to original color, new tires, excellent wheels, perfect seat, perfect exhaust, excellent bags, great forks, dry stored, etc.

Just to be certain I didn't over-fill, I will check the sight glass on the center stand, but did I somehow miss a drain plug? I found and removed the  main and the filter plugs only. Not my first rodeo (or Connie for that matter), but admit that I work on so many that I may have missed something. Keep me honest!
 
     
« Last Edit: October 03, 2018, 04:22:49 pm by Bikerman »

Offline Bikerman

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Re: 2004 C10 smoking heavily under acceleration
« Reply #12 on: October 03, 2018, 04:21:49 pm »
Oh, and the smoke is definitely white/blue oil smoke. You can smell the oil. And the exhaust is loaded with oil and dripping at the exhaust unions. Not ambiguous at all. It is blowing oil, not coolant or gas. Coolant appears at the proper level too.

Offline DC Concours

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Re: 2004 C10 smoking heavily under acceleration
« Reply #13 on: October 03, 2018, 04:29:45 pm »
There are 2 drain bolts AND the filter housing that you need to drain from.

Overfilling is a common mistake for new owners. You might have a good bike if that is the only issue and it didn't do any damage.

Offline Bikerman

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Re: 2004 C10 smoking heavily under acceleration
« Reply #14 on: October 03, 2018, 04:30:35 pm »
"I see" says the blind man. Two plugs plus a filter shaft. Will check now for over-fill. As a matter of fact, I will drain all and start over!

Offline Bikerman

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Re: 2004 C10 smoking heavily under acceleration
« Reply #15 on: October 03, 2018, 04:31:30 pm »
If it is this easy I will truly be a lucky man! I am not overly optimistic though, as the sight glass had no oil in it when I began the process, and it still smoked like hell then.


« Last Edit: October 03, 2018, 04:34:54 pm by Bikerman, Reason: I\'m an idiot »

Offline Mettler1

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Re: 2004 C10 smoking heavily under acceleration
« Reply #16 on: October 03, 2018, 04:41:35 pm »
  Hate to think a C10 is broken with that low of milage :'(  Hope it turns out good. Sounds like you think it may be a bad engine. Hope not.
'94 Concours 115,000 miles-- 7th gear,2MM,KB fork brace,Over flowtubes,Stick coils,Tcro shifter,GPS,SiSF'sTorque cams,SPOOKFAK,block off plates, SS brake & clutch lines,KB risers, FENDA EXTENDA, emulators, SiSF carb Spa, Delkevic exhaust, Murphs' knee savers +grips, etc

Offline Victor Salisbury

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Re: 2004 C10 smoking heavily under acceleration
« Reply #17 on: October 03, 2018, 04:54:21 pm »
Jus thinking out loud.
Pull the air filter, is the air filter oil saturated? Oil puddling inside. Of course if there is excessive oil in the airbox, it usually is evident on the outside, bottom left (side-stand side) on the airbox.
Check the valves, they usually don't fully seat in on the C10's 'til about 30 - 40k (probably not relevant with exhaust oil smoke though), no previous maintenance records who knows where they are at?
That low miles, that old, maybe a valve seal  or 2 dried out or gummed up piston rings?  Do a leak down check.
What state are the molded rubber gaskets in the cam cover, cam cover gasket and plug well gaskets?
Oh, oh yeah. Do the piston rod length check, motor midda been hydrolocked in the past?  That right there will seal the deal with the motor if it fails that.

I've seen some pretty neglected C10's with engines in fine shape, but most were high mileage, been run alot.
Knee jerk reaction, I'm thinking valve seals,,,,,but, until you tear into it. 
Be interested to hear what the culprit is.

Good luck
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Offline who me?

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Re: 2004 C10 smoking heavily under acceleration
« Reply #18 on: October 03, 2018, 06:51:14 pm »
For the record Ive never been able to see anything in the sight glass
Ive just gone with 3 qts and a filter every 3 k
I have no idea about anything.
95 C10 The Mule
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Offline Cal

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Re: 2004 C10 smoking heavily under acceleration
« Reply #19 on: October 03, 2018, 07:33:13 pm »
for the record - all my oil changes have been done not with a measured amount of oil but with the topping of the oil to just about the top line of the sight glass(after starting/ensuring oil had entered the system/filter).

never had any issue with the sight glass method - and quite frankly would trust it more than a measurement method.

Cal

Offline Bikerman

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Re: 2004 C10 smoking heavily under acceleration
« Reply #20 on: October 03, 2018, 08:48:07 pm »
Checking the level flat on my lift just now, I was 3/4 up on the sight glass, which I have no reason to distrust. After looking at "who me's" image above, he is also including the oil cooler line as a drain point. After draining again, I took that loose too, and got virtually less than a teaspoon more out. After refilling exactly 3 quarts, starting and let run, I am getting drips of oil again from the exhaust and smoke on acceleration. Engine doesn't sound bad actually. Periodic ping coming from alternator end cap. No oil in the air filter area. Could the alternator have anything to do with anything? It is the only thing that sounds a little too noisy IMHO. 

 
« Last Edit: October 03, 2018, 08:56:00 pm by Bikerman »

Offline Bud

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Re: 2004 C10 smoking heavily under acceleration
« Reply #21 on: October 03, 2018, 09:51:46 pm »
Checking the level flat on my lift just now, I was 3/4 up on the sight glass, which I have no reason to distrust. After looking at "who me's" image above, he is also including the oil cooler line as a drain point. After draining again, I took that loose too, and got virtually less than a teaspoon more out. After refilling exactly 3 quarts, starting and let run, I am getting drips of oil again from the exhaust and smoke on acceleration. Engine doesn't sound bad actually. Periodic ping coming from alternator end cap. No oil in the air filter area. Could the alternator have anything to do with anything? It is the only thing that sounds a little too noisy IMHO.
Trust us when we tell you that there really are two drain plugs.  Not counting the oil cooler line.

Offline ron203

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Re: 2004 C10 smoking heavily under acceleration
« Reply #22 on: October 03, 2018, 10:42:44 pm »
Who me's picture is to be believed. Weird, but there ARE two plugs and after you ride and park, the darned oil will drain all the way out of sight. GONE! (but not really).
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Offline MAN OF BLUES

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Re: 2004 C10 smoking heavily under acceleration
« Reply #23 on: October 03, 2018, 10:51:34 pm »
well, if you pulled both oil drain plugs, and the filter also, HOW MUCH oil actually came out? did you measure it?
after reinstalling it all, and adding the correct oil amount, and insuring to check the airbox and wipe it out also, it's time to take one more step....
You messed with the camchain tensioner, so go to the missing part.
Remove the valve cover, and INSPCT / AND ADJUST the valve clearances.. at that time, examine the gasket, and all of the 'oil drain back holes' from the valve area... I suspect someone may have gotten a bit "GOOPY' and goobered silicone sealer around the gasket sealing the cover, and it migrated, blocking the drain holes, and holding an abundance of 'spare' oil pooled there... sitting on the valves and seals...
and working it's way in from there..

not the first time I've seen that Rodeo...

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Offline Bikerman

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Re: 2004 C10 smoking heavily under acceleration
« Reply #24 on: October 03, 2018, 11:09:33 pm »
Yep, I found that when looking at the service manual today. Still wondering about over-fill though, by prior owner especially. If the exhaust system is loaded with oil, it will be hard to tell whether the issue is from the past or present, and trust me, there was and is a lot of oil in the exhaust. Once again, the sight glass on center stand is sitting at 3/4 full.

My next step is to yet again drain all drain points (the (2) 17mm drain plugs, the oil filter shaft and the 14mm oil cooler line.... drain everything out), pull the exhaust system from the headers back and power wash them clean inside (they are full of oil), re-start with only 3 qts total re-fill, but with no exhaust past the headers to see if I am getting oil (blow-by) coming out of the headers. If no more oil is blowing out, it was caused by the prior owner's over-fill (a win for sure), and potentially exacerbated by my re-fill?, although it has never showed as top of the mark on the sight glass either before (oil wasn't even showing when I bought it), or after I refilled with 3 qts and ran, after which it is at 3/4 on the sight glass. 

Amazingly it starts and runs great, and I had it idling for about an hour today as the cooling fan cycled on and off. The only smoking occurred after it got hot, possibly from the oil burning out of the exhaust and only really bad when the bike was revved. It idles and accelerates clean when cold.

Still hoping it's just the exhaust loaded with oil from an over-fill and burning off. It just runs too well to be fouling plugs from oil burning. I have yet to have a blown engine that ran this good! I guess valve seals are still possible.