Author Topic: Air Injection System Removal  (Read 1169 times)

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Offline drumstyx

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Re: Air Injection System Removal
« Reply #25 on: November 03, 2017, 02:13:06 pm »
Myself, I put the Block-off plates on for 3 basic reasons. 1. To free up precious space when pulling the cover. 2. Eliminating Ugliness, possible vacuum leaks and whatnot. 3. Simplify, simplify, simplify. I am puzzled why someone would NOT do it....   Locomotiveman

Not trying to get in anybodies face here but this is why I never did it on my C10s.

The system causes no penalty whatsoever to performance when functioning properly and reduces emissions by admitting fresh air into the exhaust system under relatively heavy acceleration to help pollutants burn before they reach the atmosphere. That's a win/win in my book.

The way I see it is the benefits of removing the AIS don't outweigh the advantages of leaving it in, so I don't really understand why folk do it.

To each their own.  ;)

It let's air in on *deceleration*, and aids in combustion within the exhaust pipe. In theory that should make the exhaust pop more with the system installed.

Regardless though, you're right, there's no performance hit and it's an emissions system. But for all the tiny bit that private vehicles contribute to emissions (seriously, check out the stats on industrial vs private emissions) I'd rather be able to work on my bike much more comfortably.

Offline m in sc

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Re: Air Injection System Removal
« Reply #26 on: November 03, 2017, 05:47:49 pm »
actually, the benefit of it is it vents crankcase pressure on deceleration when engine braking. this isnt nec a bad thing as there is always some amount of blowby in a motor this size. think about why it works as it does and it will make sense. ;)  i left mine on and i can easily make blanking plugs/plates on my mill. i get no popping on deceleration and my bikes dead nuts stock except for some jetting changes to compensate for the corn squeezins.  just .02
« Last Edit: November 03, 2017, 05:51:06 pm by m in sc »

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Re: Air Injection System Removal
« Reply #27 on: November 03, 2017, 08:31:49 pm »
actually, the benefit of it is it vents crankcase pressure on deceleration when engine braking. this isnt nec a bad thing as there is always some amount of blowby in a motor this size. think about why it works as it does and it will make sense. ;)  i left mine on and i can easily make blanking plugs/plates on my mill. i get no popping on deceleration and my bikes dead nuts stock except for some jetting changes to compensate for the corn squeezins.  just .02

 :-X :-X
Explain how they vent the crankcase on decel, when the airpath of that circuit in total comes from the clean air side of the airbox, thru the reeds, down thru the ports, and into the exhaust path next to the exhaust valves on the downstream side.

There is a crankcase vent located below the airbox that vents, its tied to the bottom of the airbox by a rubber hose, and is open to atmosphere in the direct air intake path below the air filter....
The reed valves play absolutly no part as a crank case vent.

To addresss Drum's comment;
In theory, you would think it would cause popping, but as designed in conjunction with the convoluted design of the baffles in the mufflers, the addition of that small amount of clean cool air only aids in combustion silently by diluting of a slight over richness right at the beginning of the exhaust path, therefore "popping" does not occur due to the exhaust reversion pressure "holding" that mixture momentarily in that location untill consumed. As many have found, when greatly reduced flow restriction aftermarket mufflers are placed on the bike, then this flow continues back thru the system, and burbling and some popping may occur, but with stock exhaust it does not.

I hope these 2 explanations can help explain function, and dispell myths, that are or may be misunderstood.

Now, in honor of SISF, as he's a pal, and I love how he tosses out food for thought...
With reed valves adding air to the exhaust, to help maintain a clean burn, what part do the aircut valves on the carburators do, that makes sense, by actually adding some fuel to a lean condition that can occur upon decell also...?
 :??:
 ;) ;) :)
« Last Edit: November 03, 2017, 08:40:25 pm by MAN OF BLUES »

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Offline connie_rider

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Re: Air Injection System Removal
« Reply #28 on: November 03, 2017, 08:46:06 pm »
In theory, you would think it would cause popping, but as designed in conjunction with the convoluted design of the baffles in the mufflers, the addition of that small amount of clean cool air only aids in combustion silently by diluting of a slight over richness right at the beginning of the exhaust path, therefore "popping" does not occur due to the exhaust reversion pressure "holding" that mixture momentarily in that location until consumed. As many have found, when greatly reduced flow restriction aftermarket mufflers are placed on the bike, then this flow continues back thru the system, and burbling and some popping may occur, but with stock exhaust it does not.

Rich, I'd like more discussion on this. Interesting!
I am not disagreeing, just need to muddle it around in my puny brain.
I agree that changing the exhaust increases the popping sound. (I assumed it was because of a leaner mixture)
  Muddling;
        allowing the air in and speeding up the exhaust flow (w/less restriction) would seem to make the mixture in the pipe leaner??
        Not allowing the air in and speeding up the exhaust flow (w/less restriction) would seem to make the mixture in the pipe richer??

Ride safe, Ted
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Re: Air Injection System Removal
« Reply #29 on: November 03, 2017, 09:04:22 pm »
Ted,
Its a fine formula of time, temperature, fuel / air mixture, and length and shape of exhaust flow path that causes the secondary explosion...
Thus a rich fuel mixture, held back and diluted, consumes the explosive element silently, and while temperatures are the hottest... the case of low restriction exhaust simply allows that same mixture time to move further away, thus creating a larger total volumn of this mixture, and then explode at a higher velocity downstream...and uncontrollably by the lack of back pressure

Its all about UEL and LEL (Upper and Lower Explosive Limits) of combustable liquids and or gassious compounds...

Simple example:
2 half cup containers of gas
Set one cup on ground, toss lit match at it immediatly, and it lights, and burns controllably at a constant rate consuming the gas....

Toss the other cup on the ground, spead out, big patch, and toss on a match.... whooosh...  and no eybrows..
« Last Edit: November 03, 2017, 09:21:50 pm by MAN OF BLUES »

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Offline connie_rider

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Re: Air Injection System Removal
« Reply #30 on: November 05, 2017, 07:05:57 pm »
Ok, makes sense.
Let me see if I have this right..
Your saying;

On a bike with stock system with Air injection open, you have some oxygen in the mixture.
 Minimal pop.

On a bike with a stock system, with Air injection blocked, you have less oxygen in the mixture.
 maybe no pop.

On a bike with a slip on, with Air injection open you have some oxygen in the mixture, more total volume.
 noticeable pop.

On a bike with a slip on, with Air injection blocked you have less oxygen in the mixture, more total volume.
decreased pop.

Ted
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Offline connieklr

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Re: Air Injection System Removal
« Reply #31 on: November 06, 2017, 04:00:11 pm »
Ok, makes sense.
Let me see if I have this right..
Your saying;

On a bike with stock system with Air injection open, you have some oxygen in the mixture.
 Minimal pop.

On a bike with a stock system, with Air injection blocked, you have less oxygen in the mixture.
 maybe no pop.

On a bike with a slip on, with Air injection open you have some oxygen in the mixture, more total volume.
 noticeable pop.

On a bike with a slip on, with Air injection blocked you have less oxygen in the mixture, more total volume.
decreased pop.

Ted


Installing the Delkevics confirmed that with the system intact. We'll see how it sounds once I remove it.

Also, that small piece of alum plate I was waiting for a quote on - ferget about it. Received the immediate below this morning:

From: xxxxxxxxxx <xxxxxxxx@bmgmetals.com>
To: 'gbyoung2@verizon.net' <gbyoung2@verizon.net>
Sent: Mon, Nov 6, 2017 9:54 am
Subject: 3/8 ALUM PLATE

Sorry sir, only 4’ x 8’ plates.
 
xxxxx
 
xxxxx xxxxxxx
xxxxxxxx@bmgmetals.com
Inside Sales, BMG Metals Inc.
950 Masonic Lane, Richmond VA  23223
Office: 804-226-1024    Direct: 804-298-2210
www.bmgmetals.com  .  1-800-552-1510

And my response:

From: Guy Young <gbyoung2@verizon.net>
To: xxxxxxxx <xxxxxxxx@bmgmetals.com>
Sent: Mon, Nov 6, 2017 11:12 am
Subject: Re: 3/8 ALUM PLATE

Yeah,so I heard Friday when I ran over to your Specialty Metals place when I hadn't heard anything back. Major bummer.

There was an approx. 10" x 10" x 3/8" drop in cardboard box that would have been perfect for what I needed. The shop foreman (guess that's who he was) said it would probably be $40, or so. I gently set it back in the box. He said to check with the lady in the office, who would probably check with ya'll over on Masonic, and it would still probably be around $40.  Screwz that; too much rigmarole.

Ask him when all that started and he said shortly after you all were taken over by some French outfit. Nice fella and I joked with him about driving over on an Australian toll road, to a French outfit that didn't want to sell me a small piece of metal for a reasonable amount of money.

Ridiculous.

I bought a fair amount of steel product from ya'll a number of years ago (2010-2011), but guess I will no longer be looking to BMG for my needs. I had recommended you to another fella a couple weeks ago before I found all this out. No more.

Thank you, have a nice day, and enjoy your croissants.  :(

Sincerely,

Guy Young
N. Chesterfield
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Offline Brooke_Benfield_OR

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Re: Air Injection System Removal
« Reply #32 on: November 06, 2017, 08:57:01 pm »

[/quote]

It let's air in on *deceleration*

[/quote]

I respectfully disagree. My testing of the system confirmed that it is designed to block airflow under high vacuum conditions such as deceleration.
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Offline connieklr

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Re: Air Injection System Removal
« Reply #33 on: November 06, 2017, 09:42:04 pm »


It let's air in on *deceleration*

[/quote]

I respectfully disagree. My testing of the system confirmed that it is designed to block airflow under high vacuum conditions such as deceleration.
[/quote]

I agree. From the Manual:
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Re: Air Injection System Removal
« Reply #34 on: November 06, 2017, 09:57:04 pm »
Ok, makes sense.
Let me see if I have this right..
Your saying;

On a bike with stock system with Air injection open, you have some oxygen in the mixture.
 Minimal pop.

On a bike with a stock system, with Air injection blocked, you have less oxygen in the mixture.
 maybe no pop.

On a bike with a slip on, with Air injection open you have some oxygen in the mixture, more total volume.
 noticeable pop.

On a bike with a slip on, with Air injection blocked you have less oxygen in the mixture, more total volume.
decreased pop.

Ted


Installing the Delkevics confirmed that with the system intact. We'll see how it sounds once I remove it.

Also, that small piece of alum plate I was waiting for a quote on - ferget about it. Received the immediate below this morning:

From: xxxxxxxxxx <xxxxxxxx@bmgmetals.com>
To: 'gbyoung2@verizon.net' <gbyoung2@verizon.net>
Sent: Mon, Nov 6, 2017 9:54 am
Subject: 3/8 ALUM PLATE

Sorry sir, only 4’ x 8’ plates.
 
xxxxx
 
xxxxx xxxxxxx
xxxxxxxx@bmgmetals.com
Inside Sales, BMG Metals Inc.
950 Masonic Lane, Richmond VA  23223
Office: 804-226-1024    Direct: 804-298-2210
www.bmgmetals.com  .  1-800-552-1510

And my response:

From: Guy Young <gbyoung2@verizon.net>
To: xxxxxxxx <xxxxxxxx@bmgmetals.com>
Sent: Mon, Nov 6, 2017 11:12 am
Subject: Re: 3/8 ALUM PLATE

Yeah,so I heard Friday when I ran over to your Specialty Metals place when I hadn't heard anything back. Major bummer.

There was an approx. 10" x 10" x 3/8" drop in cardboard box that would have been perfect for what I needed. The shop foreman (guess that's who he was) said it would probably be $40, or so. I gently set it back in the box. He said to check with the lady in the office, who would probably check with ya'll over on Masonic, and it would still probably be around $40.  Screwz that; too much rigmarole.

Ask him when all that started and he said shortly after you all were taken over by some French outfit. Nice fella and I joked with him about driving over on an Australian toll road, to a French outfit that didn't want to sell me a small piece of metal for a reasonable amount of money.

Ridiculous.

I bought a fair amount of steel product from ya'll a number of years ago (2010-2011), but guess I will no longer be looking to BMG for my needs. I had recommended you to another fella a couple weeks ago before I found all this out. No more.

Thank you, have a nice day, and enjoy your croissants.  :(

Sincerely,

Guy Young
N. Chesterfield


Bro, just have to use that Bridgeport don't ya...?
All that you need is an 1/8" thick rectangle of aluminum, or any sheet metal.. stainless is nice, I think I have some loose pieces in my junk box...I'll send ya some if you want them, then just cut the perimeter size, drill 2 holes.. good to go..
The blockoff covers I made for the only one I did were leftover 1/8" glastic (red) scrap I had leftover from making some heatsink insulators years ago at our job...
I have some of that also if you want it...
Shoot me a note, or call me.

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Offline connieklr

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Re: Air Injection System Removal
« Reply #35 on: November 07, 2017, 11:25:31 am »
Nah, I'm good and now have all the material I need. And yes, might as well fire up the Bridgeport. Been giving the lathe a good workout here lately machining some bits for a fella's older BSA single crank, so might as well shift the chip production a little to the left. Besides, I just wanna because I can.  ;)
« Last Edit: November 07, 2017, 11:52:49 am by connieklr »
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Offline connie_rider

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Re: Air Injection System Removal
« Reply #36 on: November 07, 2017, 02:12:18 pm »
I found a scrap metal place in Houston to buy fabrication material.
      Best prices I've found, but still a lot higher than it used to be.
Material for the lathe, I mostly shop on Ebay as I don't need much..
   NOTE: My old lathe is small and old, but (I agree with you) playing with it is enjoyable...
             I REALLY wish I had a Mill!

Let us know the results of your project...
  I suspect the decell popping will improve.

Ride safe, Ted
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Offline connieklr

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Re: Air Injection System Removal
« Reply #37 on: November 21, 2017, 08:39:50 pm »
We're getting there. Got sidetracked on a fella's 500cc BSA crankshaft project.







Roughed out and ready for the final shaping and finishing touches:

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Offline connie_rider

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Re: Air Injection System Removal
« Reply #38 on: November 22, 2017, 02:08:14 pm »
That mill is just "too" clean.
I don't see old metal shaving scattered everywhere!

Ride safe, Ted
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Offline connieklr

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Re: Air Injection System Removal
« Reply #39 on: November 22, 2017, 09:32:05 pm »
That mill is just "too" clean.
I don't see old metal shaving scattered everywhere!

Ride safe, Ted

Ted, you have no idea how much stuff gets scattered around. I try to get it off the floor so I don't track it into the house. The t-nut grooves are absolutely filled with chips. Really need to vacuum them out. Blew them out one time and that was a BIG mistake.  :-[
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Offline connieklr

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Re: Air Injection System Removal
« Reply #40 on: November 22, 2017, 09:41:06 pm »
Basically done. Few oops along the way, they're danged sure not perfect, but think they'll work out fine. Overkill? But of course, but I had fun making a mess.










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Offline connie_rider

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Re: Air Injection System Removal
« Reply #41 on: November 22, 2017, 10:31:20 pm »
Looks good to me............

Ride safe, Ted
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Re: Air Injection System Removal
« Reply #42 on: November 22, 2017, 10:58:27 pm »
Button head screws... Lowes bins, stainless ones... spend the $1, worth it..
Nice job tho... :great: :beerchug: :beerchug:

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Offline connieklr

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Re: Air Injection System Removal
« Reply #43 on: November 22, 2017, 11:21:02 pm »
Button head screws... Lowes bins, stainless ones... spend the $1, worth it..
Nice job tho... :great: :beerchug: :beerchug:

That was basically the game plan, but will probably hit Pleasants.... just to keep it kinda local..... Friday. Taking a break from the garage tomorrow.
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Re: Air Injection System Removal
« Reply #44 on: November 23, 2017, 10:06:10 pm »
Button head screws... Lowes bins, stainless ones... spend the $1, worth it..
Nice job tho... :great: :beerchug: :beerchug:

That was basically the game plan, but will probably hit Pleasants.... just to keep it kinda local..... Friday. Taking a break from the garage tomorrow.

Stop by "work" and tell Will to shoot me an email, and say hi to all my old compadres....then have lunch at the Pinewood... :beerchug:

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Re: Air Injection System Removal
« Reply #45 on: Yesterday at 01:13:13 am »
Somewhere in the tech pages or on the forum or somewhere I saw the fix to pull the emissions stuff and tap the four  holes in the valve cover Did it not long after I got the Mule in 99 Makes getting the valve cover out easier I havent experienced any ill effects (just turned 86k) Just sayin
I have no idea about anything.
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Offline Nosmo

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Re: Air Injection System Removal
« Reply #46 on: Yesterday at 01:56:35 am »
Having no Bridgeport, nor the skills to use it, I whittled mine out of some old Cessna scrap (or was it a Beechcraft?).  Combined with T-Cro's stick coils, it makes a really clean upper engine area.

pic below
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Offline connieklr

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Re: Air Injection System Removal
« Reply #47 on: Yesterday at 11:09:31 am »
Having no Bridgeport, nor the skills to use it, I whittled mine out of some old Cessna scrap (or was it a Beechcraft?).  Combined with T-Cro's stick coils, it makes a really clean upper engine area.

pic below

Nor I, really. With no formal training or experience, learning as I go. One of the reasons I went for the "overkill" was so I could gain a little more knowledge on how to use the thing. We're getting there.

Thanks for the pix. Yours is definitely a clean installation. Not sure if the stick coils are still available, but if so, I may look at that upgrade a little later. Even with 194K on the bike, it really needs nothing...... except ridden more. Something this imbalance crap has put a severe damper on for the last few years.
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Offline connieklr

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Re: Air Injection System Removal
« Reply #48 on: Yesterday at 11:52:47 am »
Button head screws... Lowes bins, stainless ones... spend the $1, worth it..
Nice job tho... :great: :beerchug: :beerchug:

That was basically the game plan, but will probably hit Pleasants.... just to keep it kinda local..... Friday. Taking a break from the garage tomorrow.

Stop by "work" and tell Will to shoot me an email, and say hi to all my old compadres....then have lunch at the Pinewood... :beerchug:

I did think about lunch at Pinewood today, but other than that, I really have no reason to cross over the river as I have two (2) Pleasants Hdwe stores relatively close to me. If I did cross and use the Pocahontas, that's an $8.30 round trip fare experience for me now. Plus, I usually like to give the Eastport crew a few days notice so we can collect a number of folks for the baked spaghetti. THAT alone makes the fare worthwhile.
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Offline Bud

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Re: Air Injection System Removal
« Reply #49 on: Yesterday at 12:12:25 pm »
If the air ports are tapped and plugged securely, why not make the block-off plate so that it lays in the recess of the valve cover where the reed valves were and flush with the top?  A couple of the reasons I've heard to install block-off plates is that it cleans up the area and makes it easier to remove the cover.  The plate could be held in with high temp adhesive of some sort.  With the current setup I have, you still end up taking those four bolts out to get max clearance to remove that pesky valve cover.  It would be more difficult to go back to stock, but it would give the most clearance come valve check time and also the cleanest look.