Author Topic: Spark Plug Tightening  (Read 2393 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Garrett

  • Tricycle
  • Posts: 48
  • AREA: Southwest Area
  • COG#: Forum
  • Membership Level: Forum Subscriber
Spark Plug Tightening
« on: April 25, 2016, 06:00:10 pm »
I have my valve cover off and have adjusted the valves and installed Steve's Exhaust Sprocket and am going to put the valve cover back on but I have a question about what is a little concerning to me. I have had the spark plugs out two times, the first time was to replace them and now to do the valve adjustment and both times I have found them to not be in very tight at all. What to do about this if anything. It barely takes any turn on the ratchet to unloosen them. So, I am wondering why and if they may leak because of not being very tight but I know they can break of it you tighten very much. Kind of wandering how I should look at this or what I might do. Maybe put the blue thread lock on the threads. Yes or No? Thanks.

Offline GKreamer

  • Street Cruiser
  • ****
  • Posts: 640
  • AREA: Northeast Area
  • COG#: 12323
  • Membership Level: Active
Re: Spark Plug Tightening
« Reply #1 on: April 25, 2016, 06:08:51 pm »
The service manual says 10 ft-lbs for the plugs, IIRC.

Offline WillyP

  • I Need a Life
  • ******
  • Posts: 6119
  • Live Free Or Die
    • Suncook Carpentry
  • AREA: Northeast Area
  • COG#: 8799
  • Membership Level: Active
Re: Spark Plug Tightening
« Reply #2 on: April 25, 2016, 06:28:35 pm »
No, do not put locktite on the threads!
Smart people look like crazy people to stupid people.
pics

Offline GKreamer

  • Street Cruiser
  • ****
  • Posts: 640
  • AREA: Northeast Area
  • COG#: 12323
  • Membership Level: Active
Re: Spark Plug Tightening
« Reply #3 on: April 25, 2016, 08:09:35 pm »
This is from a manual that covers through the 2002 model year.

Offline drumstyx

  • Road Bike
  • ***
  • Posts: 321
  • AREA: Northeast Area
  • COG#: 12290
  • Membership Level: Active
Re: Spark Plug Tightening
« Reply #4 on: April 25, 2016, 09:06:13 pm »
Spark plugs hit sort of a dead stop because they go in cleanly until they simply hit hard metal to metal. Of course, there's the crush gasket too, but that offers a lot of resistance too.

That is to say, it should take a decent amount of force (ideally 10ftlb) to start them loose, but it shouldn't take much movement at all. Once it's moved, say 1/4", you can basically loosen by hand.

Offline DC Concours

  • Sport Tourer
  • *****
  • Posts: 2111
  • 2001 Concours, ~19K miles
  • AREA: Northeast Area
  • COG#: forum
  • Membership Level: Forum Subscriber
Re: Spark Plug Tightening
« Reply #5 on: April 25, 2016, 09:24:20 pm »
Wait...shouldn't torque values be pound-foot?? Not foot-pound...which is work not force.



This is from a manual that covers through the 2002 model year.

Offline turbo-max

  • Crotch Rocket
  • ****
  • Posts: 1767
  • AREA: Southeast Area
  • COG#: 10445
  • Membership Level: Active
Re: Spark Plug Tightening
« Reply #6 on: April 25, 2016, 10:00:02 pm »
Wait...shouldn't torque values be pound-foot?? Not foot-pound...which is work not force.



This is from a manual that covers through the 2002 model year.

one way you get your foot pounded on, the other, you pound your foot...just sayin' :nananana:
turbo lag is a courteous head start!    ~Jeff H
99 c-10 "the purple monster"
01 c-10 undergoing turbofacation     
03 c-10 some mods...alot of miles
several other c-10's in pieces!

Offline Daytona_Mike

  • Sport Tourer
  • *****
  • Posts: 2299
  • AREA: Southeast Area
  • COG#: Forum
  • Membership Level: Forum Subscriber
Re: Spark Plug Tightening
« Reply #7 on: April 25, 2016, 10:44:47 pm »
Wait...shouldn't torque values be pound-foot?? Not foot-pound...which is work not force.

I do believe you are correct. 
Of course this means to  TIGHTEN  :  It barely takes any turn on the ratchet to unloosen them.
Same as Unthaw.  'If I want to 'unthaw' the turkey just put it in the freezer and it will unthaw.'
Normally aspirated engines have perpetual turbo lag
2000 Red C10 1052 kit
2008  C14 Silver Dammit Full AreaP- Flies are put back in SISF_Flash
2011  KLR650   688 piston ported and polished
2011  KTM 530    This thing is FUN!!

Offline GKreamer

  • Street Cruiser
  • ****
  • Posts: 640
  • AREA: Northeast Area
  • COG#: 12323
  • Membership Level: Active
Re: Spark Plug Tightening
« Reply #8 on: April 25, 2016, 10:45:39 pm »
Wait...shouldn't torque values be pound-foot?? Not foot-pound...which is work not force.



This is from a manual that covers through the 2002 model year.

Just quoting the manual, that can't decide between ft-lbs and lbs-in...

Offline Thud300

  • Taking the long way everywhere
  • Street Cruiser
  • ****
  • Posts: 814
  • my YouTube channel: "ToastRider"
  • AREA: North Central Area
  • COG#: Forum
  • Membership Level: Forum Subscriber
Re: Spark Plug Tightening
« Reply #9 on: April 25, 2016, 10:48:44 pm »
10 ft/lb isn't a lot, it's just a notch beyond "fully driven, seated and not stripped"   ;D
Returning old Kawis to riding glory since 2014
1998 Concours "Connimus Prime"  CDA #555
1991 Voyager XII "Xaviera"
1989 454 LTD "Merlin"

Offline connie_rider

  • "OtP" {retired/assistant} Slave Labor
  • I Need a Life
  • ******
  • Posts: 8960
  • Help us make "OtP" possible! "AGAIN"
  • AREA: South Central Area
  • COG#: 4154
  • Membership Level: Asst. Area Director
Re: Spark Plug Tightening
« Reply #10 on: April 25, 2016, 10:59:21 pm »
In other words... they should be Good-n-tight...
  German pronunciation; "Gutentite"

Sometimes described as , one click of the elbow?

Ride safe, Ted
« Last Edit: April 26, 2016, 01:17:41 pm by connie_rider »
14 Connie (Traveler II) / 03 Connie (Buddy)
Gone but not forgotten; 87 and 00 Connies..

If your not already a COGger, "consider becoming one".
Help us make "OtP" possible again!!

Offline JDM

  • Street Cruiser
  • ****
  • Posts: 676
  • AREA: South Central Area
  • COG#: 8877
  • Membership Level: Asst. Area Director
Re: Spark Plug Tightening
« Reply #11 on: April 26, 2016, 01:07:21 am »
You are installing a steel plug into an aluminium head so just snug is all you need. You installed the plugs in okay before so don't fix it if it ain't broke. I am just saying.

Offline BobT_MA

  • Mini Bike
  • **
  • Posts: 198
  • AREA: Northeast Area
  • COG#: forum
  • Membership Level: Forum Subscriber
Re: Spark Plug Tightening
« Reply #12 on: April 26, 2016, 10:39:53 am »
Does this mean that I have to have two torque wrenches????  One that measures in foot-pounds and one that measures in pound-foot?  This is going to be expensive trying to find one in pound-foot.   :(

Offline Pbfoot

  • Crotch Rocket
  • ****
  • Posts: 1308
  • AREA: South Central Area
  • COG#: 10807
  • Membership Level: Active
Re: Spark Plug Tightening
« Reply #13 on: April 27, 2016, 07:54:52 pm »
I have never used a torque wrench on sparkplugs and I never will. I have only had a spark plug come loose on one vehicle since 1976 and that was a VW. I have seen a few folks strip plugs with a torque wrench. I put a dab of anti seize on the plug threads and snug it up using a 3/8 ratchet with just my finger ends on it. Works for me.
If you don't have time to do it right, when do you have time to do it over.                                                                17" wheels, Nissin 4 piston calipers.1kg Sonic Springs.Cartridge Fork Emulators. KB Brace. Galfer brake lines  Free power mod.

Offline Scup

  • Mini Bike
  • **
  • Posts: 153
  • AREA: Northeast Area
  • COG#: 11596
  • Membership Level: Active
Re: Spark Plug Tightening
« Reply #14 on: April 27, 2016, 10:41:52 pm »
 Garrett,

One of the main reasons to torque spark-plugs to the called for torque is to crush the "special" copper washer and seat the plug properly.  Proper torque is required to obtain proper contact with the surrounding metal at the seat and threads.  This is the main route for the transfer of heat from the plug to the head, and without proper contact you do not get the heat transfer needed and the plug will run too hot.  The plug can also pulse as the engine goes through its cycles and wear the threads.
 
As you tighten a new plug it will tighten up as the crush washer makes contact, but as it is torqued further you can feel the washer collapsing, then the resistance increases again as the washer totally collapses and bottoms.  I've seen a lot of plugs without the washer collapsed because the installer thinks it is tight when the washer makes initial contact, and yes when removing them they feel/are loose.

Ideally the copper crush washer should be replaced every time the plug is removed & reinstalled, something few of us, including myself, rarely do.

Never Seize is a good idea. Torque into some steel head calls for 18 flbs.  If a plug strips using the proper torque, it usually means the threads are already stressed or crossed, VWs are notorious for stripping.

Luck ! ! !

Josh

Offline Nosmo

  • Crotch Rocket
  • ****
  • Posts: 1985
  • "We're all in this together" -- Red Green
  • AREA: Northwest Area
  • COG#: Forum
  • Membership Level: Forum Subscriber
Re: Spark Plug Tightening
« Reply #15 on: April 28, 2016, 12:55:48 am »
I agree with Scup except maybe for the Never Seize.  Not sure what their formulation is, but anti-seize compounds with metallic base CAN (I don't say necessarily WILL) run down the threads and foul the plug if you use too much.  Not very likely but it can.  In aircraft engines there is a special anti-seize used, made by Champion and a bottle of it is a life-time supply. 

https://www.aircraftspruce.com/pages/ep/lubricants/antiseize.php
2003 Connie    2007 Wee-Strom   

"What could possibly go wrong...click....go wrong...click...go wrong...click...go wrong..."

Offline Pbfoot

  • Crotch Rocket
  • ****
  • Posts: 1308
  • AREA: South Central Area
  • COG#: 10807
  • Membership Level: Active
Re: Spark Plug Tightening
« Reply #16 on: April 28, 2016, 02:43:41 am »
I agree with Scup except maybe for the Never Seize.  Not sure what their formulation is, but anti-seize compounds with metallic base CAN (I don't say necessarily WILL) run down the threads and foul the plug if you use too much.  Not very likely but it can.  In aircraft engines there is a special anti-seize used, made by Champion and a bottle of it is a life-time supply. 

https://www.aircraftspruce.com/pages/ep/lubricants/antiseize.php
Never had that happen but that looks like a good product.
If you don't have time to do it right, when do you have time to do it over.                                                                17" wheels, Nissin 4 piston calipers.1kg Sonic Springs.Cartridge Fork Emulators. KB Brace. Galfer brake lines  Free power mod.

Offline alan

  • Road Bike
  • ***
  • Posts: 329
  • AREA: Northwest Area
  • COG#: 11951
  • Membership Level: Active
Re: Spark Plug Tightening
« Reply #17 on: April 28, 2016, 06:03:48 am »
Which Never-Seize are we talking here?  (Asked the retired millwright)
http://www.neverseezproducts.com/neverseez.htm
....ride like the one-eyed Jack of Diamonds with the Devil close behind...
"The test of the machine is the satisfaction it gives you. There isn't any other test. If the machine produces tranquility, it's right. If it disturbs you, it's wrong until either the machine or your mind is changed."
-Robert M. Pirsig

Offline danodemotoman

  • Sport Tourer
  • *****
  • Posts: 2553
  • Yo Ho, Yo HO, it's a bikers life for me!
  • AREA: Northwest Area
  • COG#: 2877
  • Membership Level: Asst. Area Director

Offline WillyP

  • I Need a Life
  • ******
  • Posts: 6119
  • Live Free Or Die
    • Suncook Carpentry
  • AREA: Northeast Area
  • COG#: 8799
  • Membership Level: Active
Re: Spark Plug Tightening
« Reply #19 on: April 28, 2016, 01:30:07 pm »
You might also check manufacturer's recommendations. NGK says their plugs have a coating from the factory, and are installed dry.

NGK Spark Plugs
Smart people look like crazy people to stupid people.
pics

Offline mgoodrich

  • Bicycle
  • *
  • Posts: 116
  • AREA: North Central Area
  • COG#: 4466
  • Membership Level: Active
Re: Spark Plug Tightening
« Reply #20 on: April 28, 2016, 02:02:53 pm »
If I am not mistaken, all torque values for any nut/bolt assume installing dry, adding any lubricate or anti seize will allow it to be potentially stripped.

Myself, I do put anti seize on them after having some plugs get rusted in on one of my cars (that was fun getting out).  I know that this shouldn't happen on these heads since they are aluminum, but I got into that habit and kept it.

I just follow the instructions on the plugs themselves on the package.  All the plugs (including NGK) say finger tight until crush washer contacts head, and then go 1/2 turn max to seat.

Never had an issue doing that on all my vehicles.

Offline JDM

  • Street Cruiser
  • ****
  • Posts: 676
  • AREA: South Central Area
  • COG#: 8877
  • Membership Level: Asst. Area Director
Re: Spark Plug Tightening
« Reply #21 on: April 28, 2016, 10:51:37 pm »
If I am not mistaken, all torque values for any nut/bolt assume installing dry, adding any lubricate or anti seize will allow it to be potentially stripped.

Myself, I do put anti seize on them after having some plugs get rusted in on one of my cars (that was fun getting out).  I know that this shouldn't happen on these heads since they are aluminum, but I got into that habit and kept it.

I just follow the instructions on the plugs themselves on the package.  All the plugs (including NGK) say finger tight until crush washer contacts head, and then go 1/2 turn max to seat.

Never had an issue doing that on all my vehicles.

THAT IS WHAT I AM TALKING ABOUT.  :PDT_Armataz_01_37:

Offline WillyP

  • I Need a Life
  • ******
  • Posts: 6119
  • Live Free Or Die
    • Suncook Carpentry
  • AREA: Northeast Area
  • COG#: 8799
  • Membership Level: Active
Re: Spark Plug Tightening
« Reply #22 on: April 29, 2016, 11:48:05 pm »
There might also be some consideration of the effect anti-seize has on the heat range of the plug. All plugs rely on conduction of heat to the head to prevent them from burning out prematurely. If you add anti-seize that is a good heat conductor, you might cool the plug too much, causing the plug to foul. If the anti-seize is a poor conductor of heat, it could cause the plug to overheat and cause pre-ignition, or burn off and fail.

Or so the theory goes, I've seen lots of discussion but no definitive testing that shows this to be true or not. I suspect that there may be some effect, but not enough to be overly concerned about. However, since I use NGK plugs which have a coating on them from the factory, I will follow NGK's recommendation and not use anti-seize.

Oh, and I've never used a torque wrench on plugs, and I've never had a plug loosen, break due to over-tightening, and I've never stripped a head while tightening. I have had old plugs pull the threads out with them, first time I removed the plug. We are talking old rusty plugs that obviously hadn't been removed in years.
« Last Edit: April 29, 2016, 11:52:23 pm by WillyP »
Smart people look like crazy people to stupid people.
pics