Concours Owners Group (COG) Forum

Concours Discussion (C10 / ZG1000 / 1000GTR) => Concours C10 / ZG1000 General Chat and Tech => Topic started by: The ice man on March 25, 2019, 07:22:35 pm

Title: Bent Front forks
Post by: The ice man on March 25, 2019, 07:22:35 pm
I removed the front wheel, The fender,  Brake calipers and the right fork. Next I plan to remove the left fork. Next I will remove the forks from the old bike and install them in new connie. I am thinking not to disassemble the forks right now. I will do that another day, so can speed things up for now. I looked at the triple trees, they do not look bent or damaged to me? So I am thinking just leave them in place? Any suggestions?
Title: Re: Bent Front forks
Post by: m in sc on March 25, 2019, 07:28:40 pm
you'll find out when you try to fit the new ones. Ive been fooled before, you may get lucky.
Title: Re: Bent Front forks
Post by: Pbfoot on March 25, 2019, 07:35:21 pm
If the fork bent, the triple trees are tweaked, and should be inspected. Being they are aluminum I would dye check them and or replace with known good ones if the new forks don't fit easily.
Title: Re: Bent Front forks
Post by: Bud on March 25, 2019, 07:35:28 pm
I removed the front wheel, The fender,  Brake calipers and the right fork. Next I plan to remove the left fork. Next I will remove the forks from the old bike and install them in new connie. I am thinking not to disassemble the forks right now. I will do that another day, so can speed things up for now. I looked at the triple trees, they do not look bent or damaged to me? So I am thinking just leave them in place? Any suggestions?
I'll leave the triples to someone like MOB.  Why create another job down the road by not at least changing the fork oil while you have them off already?  The tortoise always wins the race Randy. :great:
Title: Re: Bent Front forks
Post by: MAN OF BLUES on March 25, 2019, 08:40:37 pm
I removed the front wheel, The fender,  Brake calipers and the right fork. Next I plan to remove the left fork. Next I will remove the forks from the old bike and install them in new connie. I am thinking not to disassemble the forks right now. I will do that another day, so can speed things up for now. I looked at the triple trees, they do not look bent or damaged to me? So I am thinking just leave them in place? Any suggestions?
I'll leave the triples to someone like MOB.  Why create another job down the road by not at least changing the fork oil while you have them off already?  The tortoise always wins the race Randy. :great:
I've seen some catastrophic fork damages, and have to say that unless the forks were completely bent backwards under the bike, the tree's are probably just fine.. you can bend a tube easily, and with all the length/leverage involved, and the fact the forks themelves are only held parallel at the bottom, by the axle itself allows them to twist and bend very easily, with no damage to the clamps up top.
So I wouldn't panic about the trees, I would however remove them, clean and inspect the bearings, and regrease them... while doing all the rest.. knowing that if you decide to change out that steering stem, it will require punching out the old bearing cups from the bikes frame... ya can't mix and match in other words, a the steering head races, won't match the mating cup part on the frame, and will ruin the complete top and bottom bearing in short order.
Title: Re: Bent Front forks
Post by: Bud on March 26, 2019, 05:45:32 pm
Pics
Title: Re: Bent Front forks
Post by: Bud on March 26, 2019, 05:46:20 pm
Last one.
Title: Re: Bent Front forks
Post by: MAN OF BLUES on March 26, 2019, 06:06:20 pm
 :'( :truce:
Yeah, those took a pretty good whump, if the steering head bearing were loose at the time, they may have been compromised, i.e., rollers bit in and created a dent in the cup...
it's a toss up now; at least disassemble, clean and inspect, before installing the other forks in the trees... but after seeing those, and doing head bearings before, I'd toss the money into new bearings and install the known good steering head if you plan to make this bike your "main bike".  :great: :motonoises:
Title: Re: Bent Front forks
Post by: The ice man on March 26, 2019, 09:08:53 pm
Do I need special tools, to do this? Can use wheel bearing grease?
Title: Re: Bent Front forks
Post by: Bud on March 26, 2019, 09:54:18 pm
 You can use that.  This isn't a high speed wheel bearing here.  I'd be surprised if Rich said there was some special grease you had to use on this.  MOB what do you say about the grease?  As for the steering stem bearing cups, there are a few ways to go.  You can run a bead with a welder and drop the bearing cup quickly.  You can buy a puller that will pull the race.  Taking a drift and punching out the cup seems to be a bit of a problem.  If you have someone that can run a bead one the cup, I would go that way.  If I'm off with this advice, correct me please.  HTH
Title: Re: Bent Front forks
Post by: MAN OF BLUES on March 26, 2019, 10:29:41 pm
for grease, jut the generic "red" wheel bearing grease is fine, tough to "re-pack" the bottom race, but jamb it in and rotate. repeatedly, filling the cage of the bearing fully... the top bearing you can do the "dallop" of grease in the palm, and forcefeed by "scraping" it into the race...

if you are gonna replace the bearings, let me know, and I'll post the best methods for removing them... they require some "special" tool/prowess, to get the one off the stem, and both cups out of the frame... but I'm not going into it unless you are planning to replace them...

There is an article I wrote on the tooling, and process (as would be done in a Kaw shop) in the Concourier archives, in the library... it's called "shake, rattle, n roll" in iirc, the "spring '07 issue"...
we have found "alternatives" and cheaper tools, but just don't go buying "tools", until you seek advice... because the "generic" tool won't work.... just mentioning...
Title: Re: Bent Front forks
Post by: Bud on March 26, 2019, 10:33:18 pm
Rich shares the extra special secret stuff with paid members........HINT HINT. ;) :)
Title: Re: Bent Front forks
Post by: MAN OF BLUES on March 26, 2019, 10:53:19 pm
Rich shares the extra special secret stuff with paid members........HINT HINT. ;) :)

that's not true.. I share it all, and I do it for free.. how could any decent COG person with tech knowledge ever do less...with regard to normal maintenance? i just get tired of digging up data, photos, typing procedures, etc., and posting until someone asks lately..  If asked, I always oblige.  :great:
Title: Re: Bent Front forks
Post by: The ice man on March 27, 2019, 03:08:04 am
I went to tech pages and found shake rattle and roll . It asks for my username and password, which I submitted. Then I clicked on download file , then it asks  for a password which it don't have?..? It isn't giving me a password?.?
Title: Re: Bent Front forks
Post by: The ice man on March 27, 2019, 03:19:05 am
I have downloaded the file but I can't open it, because I don't have a password?
Title: Re: Bent Front forks
Post by: Tour1 on March 27, 2019, 03:44:12 am
I have downloaded the file but I can't open it, because I don't have a password?
I tried it and the password was given in the "ok" box that I just blew by the first time.
Started over and read the text before clicking "ok"... got it all.
Title: Re: Bent Front forks
Post by: The ice man on March 27, 2019, 04:03:49 am
Tried it again, same result,  I can  download the file but I can't open it? No password?
Title: Re: Bent Front forks
Post by: WillyP on March 27, 2019, 02:03:23 pm
The password is given in the pop-up box where you have to click ok to get the file.
Title: Re: Bent Front forks
Post by: The ice man on March 27, 2019, 05:08:03 pm
The old Connie's registration will expire in eight days. I would like to none OP it before then, so I don't have to pay the new registration fee.  I already have The new Connie's registration paid for the year. I to not want to disassemble the steering, just install the front forks, fender, wheel and ride away.
     I can remove inspect grease and so on, at another time. If I do that, would it cause steering components to become more damaged?  I have both forks out now,  I can't detect anything wrong with the steering....or the triple trees...
    By the way I am not planning to reinstall the lower and middle fairings, just the upper fairing and windshield?
Title: Re: Bent Front forks
Post by: Bud on March 28, 2019, 11:31:57 am
I would think that IF you can install the fork tubes in tweaked triples, you're not going to harm the triples any more by doing so.  It's above my pay grade to give advice on what that might do to the tubes.  If the triples are tweaked, you'll replace them so it's not like you took something that could have been saved and trashed it.  If the triples are tweaked, it's not going to feel right when you ride it.  So either you ride it feeling weird or you go back and pull it all apart again and replace everything.  All I can tell you is that shortcuts can bite you in the butt.  That's how it works for me anyway.  So if it's me, I'm replacing it all and servicing the forks.  We're not talking about that much time to do it right the first time.  Throwing it all together is a crap shoot.  If you don't mind going back and doing it all over again, throw it together and see what happens.  How lucky are you feeling today?   HTH :)
Title: Re: Bent Front forks
Post by: RWulf on March 28, 2019, 12:55:59 pm
If you are worried about the triples being tweaked take them to a local machine shop.
Ask them to put them on a surface plate and measure them for flatness with no rocking.
You could do this yourself on a peace of plate glass also.
If you can slide the forks into the triples without any effort, both sides them they most
likely are not bent. Don't use the forks in the pictures as they look trashed to me.
Title: Re: Bent Front forks
Post by: The ice man on March 28, 2019, 01:08:25 pm
The old Connie had a salvage title when I bought it. I don't know what they did to it or didn't do to it before I got it, other then I can see it looks like it was dropped on the right side. Were the front forks ever bent and replaced? I don't know? Are the triple trees tweaked on the old bike? I don't know?
     How can I tell?
Title: Re: Bent Front forks
Post by: The ice man on March 28, 2019, 01:18:56 pm
  Will I be able to disassemble the steering, or do I need special tools to disassemble?
Title: Re: Bent Front forks
Post by: connie_rider on March 28, 2019, 01:41:14 pm
I have not replaced bent forks on a C-10. So, MOB can correct me here if I err.... ??

The only difficulty in disassembly is getting the bearing races out.
When I did mine, I was lucky and simply tapped them out with a long punch.
Others have had a lot more difficulty...
To re-assemble, it takes some finesse.
MOB's procedure would help you there.
 NOTE: I built a special tool to help keep everything straight when doing the install.

There is a simple test you can do, to check things out.
Install the good forks in the triple trees, and then install the handlebars and wheel.
Then (with wheel off the ground) slowly turn the handlebars side to side.
As you turn the bars, your feeling for a click {that is caused by a cracked or worn race/bearing}...
If you feel a click, the bearing races are damaged and need replacing.
  {NOTE: If you have that click it will probably be felt as the front wheel passes the center of it's rotation}.

By the way, I agree with MOB/Pbfoot.
    {Do not tell them I sed that!}  :-[
The tripple trees took a heck of a hit. Could be cracked.
  Either install the ones from the old bike, or do a careful inspection of the ones currently on the bike...

Ride safe, Ted

Title: Re: Bent Front forks
Post by: The ice man on March 28, 2019, 01:49:35 pm
So can disassemble, except the races, for inspection and grease but I will not be able to reassemble without special tool?
Title: Re: Bent Front forks
Post by: Bud on March 28, 2019, 03:43:07 pm
To tighten the steering stem bearings, you need a spanner wrench.  In a pinch, I guess you could use a punch.  The punch is NOT the best way, but it can be done.
https://www.cyclegear.com/search?_utf8=%E2%9C%93&query=spanner+wrench&commit=Search (https://www.cyclegear.com/search?_utf8=%E2%9C%93&query=spanner+wrench&commit=Search)
(https://www.cyclegear.com/_a/product_images/0179/3814/stockton_spanner_wrench_ends_750x750.jpg)
Title: Re: Bent Front forks
Post by: MAN OF BLUES on March 28, 2019, 06:03:00 pm
yes
please use a spanner... it costs less than the Nut that gets ruined using a punch... see below;

McMaster Carr has them, in the correct size, and ships over night basically...the tool has gone up in price, (used to be like $7) but still worth having.
this is the one in my photo below;
https://www.mcmaster.com/6975a16 (https://www.mcmaster.com/6975a16)



also, herre are the other parts in a picture below, of the associated items to complete the stem bearing needs (less the tools)....
Title: Re: Bent Front forks
Post by: connie_rider on March 28, 2019, 11:04:49 pm
The special tool I was referring to was a tool to pull the races into the neck and keep them aligned.
Not needed until you are replacing the races..

As others mentioned, the spanner wrench is very nice to have for final tightening.
For a quick bearing test {to see if you have the click},,,, you don't have to go to full tightness.
Just tap the nut snug with a brass punch.

Ride safe, Ted
Title: Re: Bent Front forks
Post by: RWulf on March 28, 2019, 11:12:02 pm
Ok, i"ll bite. What is the "quick bearing test (to see if you have the click)?
Title: Re: Bent Front forks
Post by: connie_rider on March 28, 2019, 11:29:01 pm
See reply #23...

Ride  safe, Ted
Title: Re: Bent Front forks
Post by: MAN OF BLUES on March 29, 2019, 06:43:25 pm
The special tool I was referring to was a tool to pull the races into the neck and keep them aligned.
Not needed until you are replacing the races..




CUP pound out tool, and install tools shown below...
now, mind you, that is the KAW tool... and it is mega $$$

I found cheaper alternatives, online, that can be modified to do this job... and I'll also note that I've NEVER seen anyone able to "punch" out those cups, using only a "punch", as there is no internal "lip" to catch the end of the punch on to hit it.... (TED.... ::)  )

http://forum.cog-online.org/of-common-interest/stem-bearing-cup-removal-tool/ (http://forum.cog-online.org/of-common-interest/stem-bearing-cup-removal-tool/)
Title: Re: Bent Front forks
Post by: MAN OF BLUES on March 29, 2019, 06:46:56 pm
Cup install tool.... with threaded rod...

(don't mind the BFH, it is used with the flat ended round bar punch, for hammering on the removal tool...) :rotflmao:
Title: Re: Bent Front forks
Post by: connie_rider on March 29, 2019, 08:12:12 pm
I do not own a pulling tool like yours, so I had to improvise.

I remember you told me that it couldn't be done.
I  though you right, but (being me) I also thought, "why not give it a try"..
  {NOTE: I really luv it when someone sez, "it can't be done"..}

NOTE: In your post, you can see tips at the end of your {err} tool for pulling against the edge..
          http://forum.cog-online.org/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=76612.0;attach=56517;image (http://forum.cog-online.org/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=76612.0;attach=56517;image)

            I ground the end of the punch to push against the "same" lip that your DSCF0047 tool uses...
              Using patience; {on that edge} I tapped and moved around the dia. of the race. Slowly/carefully...
                   Both races came out easily...

My homemade installation tool is the same design as yours.

Ride safe, Ted
Title: Re: Bent Front forks
Post by: MAN OF BLUES on March 29, 2019, 09:56:54 pm
I do not own a pulling tool like yours, so I had to improvise.

I remember you told me that it couldn't be done.
I  though you right, but (being me) I also thought, "why not give it a try"..
  {NOTE: I really luv it when someone sez, "it can't be done"..}

NOTE: In your post, you can see tips at the end of your {err} tool for pulling against the edge..
          [url]http://forum.cog-online.org/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=76612.0;attach=56517;image[/url] ([url]http://forum.cog-online.org/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=76612.0;attach=56517;image[/url])

            I ground the end of the punch to push against the "same" lip that your DSCF0047 tool uses...
              Using patience; {on that edge} I tapped and moved around the dia. of the race. Slowly/carefully...
                   Both races came out easily...

My homemade installation tool is the same design as yours.

Ride safe, Ted


most folks, won't make specific tools, specialized for form/fit/function, nor do they realize what they are in for... until they are totally dis-assembled, and basically screwed.

the only "lip" that can be caught, is the radius on the inner bore, of the cup, when it's flat against the seat.. a the inner bore of the tube is the same size a that on the bearing...

the "tool" forces the "knife edge" along that inner mating surface, (another photo, sorry, they were all out of focus...that's why they never got into my article ) at that relief radius on the cup, and begins to actually "grip and separate" the backside of the cup from the frame.. you lucked out, and repeated attempts to do it in the same manner, on a different bike,  would have been very painful at the least, and especially for someone "not quit a tenacious" as you or I are....
Whenever I do a stem bearing replacement, once the cup are out, I chuck up a carbide 'Pinecone shaped" burr bit in my air grinder, and grind 4 "crescent shaped" notches, 90* apart, on the inner bore of the frame/stem area, at that positive "stop" the bearing cup sits against; then, if in the future, I wish to redo that bearing, I "can" slip a punch in there, and easily "seat" it on the edge of the cup, to pound against... something I do from experience doing these (I also grind "notches" into the "tube spacers" that fit between the wheel bearings, for this exact same purpose..whenever I do those also...)

the installation tools I showed, are actual Kaw bearing insertion "plugs", the threaded rod/etc., was my addition, to circumvent the Kaw Rod.

These were Borrowed, for the photo shoot, from my "mentor"... I'll now need to buy my own, via the ones I referenced; and "modify to gring the knife edge" on the puller.
I will mention tho, getting the bottom bearing cage/roller/race off the stem base, is still a p.i.t.a., and I used a couple different methods, as a "generic" bearing splitter just doesn't fit in there, on the bottom tree, between the positive "steering stops" cast into it. You need to remove a lot of "excess metal" from a generic splitter tool, or make your own..
Removing the roller "cage", and rollers, holding the tree in a vise, and heating that inner race with a propane torch, rapidly using some thin chisels to wedge it upwards, is the safest method. Then, reheat, and repeat, to get it moving upwards on the stem...
Funny, that is the method (minus the heating part) shown in the FSM for the C14 bearing replacement... they had a special tool they old for the old C10, that had angular offset clamping bolts on a High $$$$$ splitter, but that was never gonna be purchased... by me.
Title: Re: Bent Front forks
Post by: Bud on March 29, 2019, 10:34:45 pm
To be honest, I don't remember how we got the cup out of my son's 87 when we did the big fork upgrade.  What I can tell you is that I was wishing for one of those tools.  Everything is easier with the proper tools.  No question about it.  Will we spend the money and maybe wait a bit for those tools to come in?  Those that do get it done quicker with less frustration.  Ted seems to have any immense amount of patience.  I suspect that had a lot to do with his outcome.  Then there is those of us (I have too many guilty moments) that can't or won't spend the money, that end up damaging things and getting frustrated and spending as much money or more trying to do it the quick, cheap way.  Dave Ramsey was telling a story the other day about trying to learn something from a billionaire he knows.  This guy tells Dave that there is a book he should read.  Turns out it's the tortoise and the hare.  The billionaire tells Dave that every time he's read the book, the tortoise wins.  Sometimes it seems, the easiest things to understand are the hardest things to accept and do.
Title: Re: Bent Front forks
Post by: MAN OF BLUES on March 29, 2019, 11:25:53 pm
Honestly Bud, I'm realllllly cheap... BUT I've been an Mechanical Engineer for 45+ years, and my main job was solving problems, mechanical and assembly problems... if I made something simple, so anyone could do it (like all the people that assembled what I designed), and had fabricated.. I found it as a "successful" venture.

Now Ted, he's just cheap, and has lot's of time smashing his fingers, and cursing..
so, that's why he does it...( :great: :great: you know me all too well Ted... :great: :great: :beerchug: )... because in the end, satisfaction reigned thru it all...
He and I get a lot of enjoyment for success, that we have, and never ever share.

I see people constantly, jumping into water soo deep, without a clue, and hoping to find a way out of what they did in a panic mode, to fix something they never researched, had a "gameplan", or even asked about, and after doing severe hammer damage, that they "induced", and the frustration they have... nothing you can say will help... :'(

I used to tell my wife (when going out to work on something).. "no big deal honey, I'll be in in an hour... It' just a 10 minit job..."     i don't ever say that anymore. :-X


Like, the "other solution" for getting those cups out of the frame stem area...
see, not everyone has the same "tools"... so if I say..:
"get a big washer that fits inside the cup, and run a bead using your tabletop MIG welder, to zap it inside the cup, then while it's still hot, use a punch from the other side to pound it out..." really doesn't help the dude in a condo, with no garage, no carport, and no welder...

 ;)

a for the old Tortoise and Hare....... we are in a new time...(and being a Tortois myself) and I would bet $ that neither would make it across a 6 lane highway...... well, maybe the Hare would get further... but that ain't "winning".. ( a Tortoise would stand at the edge of the highway... waiting for the Hare to become road splat, then turn and go home, snickering, and just getting older...) :great: :great: :great: :rotflmao:
Title: Re: Bent Front forks
Post by: Stasch on March 29, 2019, 11:47:29 pm
This may be a solution for a guy with regular tools . . . . like me.

I got the races out (the bottom one was the hardest) without having to find a large washer, welding or dremelling the race apart.

It did require a small standard puller, the kind you use to pull a belt drive wheel off a lawnmower engine shaft.

I checked the way back machine with a search for an old post I wrote quite a while ago. 

Methods for both the upper and lower race removal is on the first page. 

It wouldn't have been so long but some useless Michigan friends kept chiming in with 'help'.   :)

Click this:  Linky to Way Back Post (http://forum.cog-online.org/concours-c10-zg1000-general-chat-and-tech/rat-build-steering-stem-race-removal-back-to-success/msg/)
Title: Re: Bent Front forks
Post by: connie_rider on March 30, 2019, 02:55:14 pm
Here is a simple solution from a simplemind.
{
I've learned another way to get them out that is EZ and requires no special tools. Justa cheep dremmel tool from HF}
      {Think I found it on the Forum??}
          After I learned/used it, I did a; "now, why didn't I think of that"..  :-[

Use a Dremel tool, with a 1" abrasive cutoff.
  Cut the race semi vertically.. { ie; top to bottom (at any angle needed to reach the race)}
  Once you cut thru, the race will come out easily. {because cutting it releases the interference fit}

I know some are thinking, "but you'll also cut a groove in the metal around it"...
You are correct, you will also cut some of the supporting material.
  "But",as long as you do not cut "thru" the outside/supporting material, that groove is unimportant.
  Just grind off the burrs and install a new race. Works perfectly!
                                      ;)

NOTE: Best to do the cut on the sides of the race as the groove is not in the front/rear area, that sees more stress while riding.

Ride safe, Ted

Let the flames begin..............
Title: Re: Bent Front forks
Post by: RWulf on March 31, 2019, 05:32:35 pm
Who you calling a useless Michigan friend ?

I will add this, "useless" tip. Just heat the frame side of the race
with your propain torch and lightly tap out the race. If you
blister the paint an spray paint will touch it up.