Author Topic: Blasphemy! Single carb on ZG1000?  (Read 1659 times)

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Offline GKreamer

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Re: Blasphemy! Single carb on ZG1000?
« Reply #25 on: October 09, 2017, 02:17:43 am »
Rev, what bike(s) are donor candidates for use on a C10?

Offline Rev Ryder

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Re: Blasphemy! Single carb on ZG1000?
« Reply #26 on: October 09, 2017, 02:40:49 am »
Rev, what bike(s) are donor candidates for use on a C10?
For a complete EFI system or just for throttle bodies?

For a complete system I'd go with the Z1000 or even the Z750.  These machines use the center throttle cables like the Connie does and thus will be easiest to make fit and work.  THe 1000 throttle bodies are also a great choice as they need simply to be narrowed 5mm in the center (I can show you how) to make them fit the Connie port spacing very closely.  Throttle cables need to be 1 inch longer inside with stock length housings, then they go right on and adjust well.  Murph has supplied me a few sets of these so knows what to get done from Motion Pro.

These will NOT fit into the stock C-10 boots since they are much larger and so the easy solution there is to purchase silicone turbo hoses (adapters, the size escapes me at the moment but I buy them off eBay) and trim the length on them.  Another set of the same will adapt the T-bodies to the airbox at the rear. BAM!  It works.  Most of the Z1000 throttles are 38mm.  Some models are round on the back and some years are oval.  If you're going turbo do not get the oval ones.  DAMHIK  Normally Aspirated doesn't really care. Either will work. If using the Z1000 ECU, you'll use the Z1000 injectors.  With my standalone, you'll want ZX636 injectors... they are a bit smaller in flow and easier to get good idle quality from at reasonable fuel pressures.  You could use them with the Z1000 ECU as well, but tuning will get problematic a little bit and you'll do a lot of experimenting with fuel pressures.

I have also narrowed ZX10R throttles by 10mm, but they are huge and make tuning for easy riding almost impossible since a tiny twist of the wrist yields huge vacuum drops.  Here, the Z750 T-Bodies shine. Some years are 34mm and tuning is easier all around.  Their injectors as well as ECU will also work I believe.  I have NOT done these particular things, but if I wanted to go the factory ECU route, these are what I'd use. The ZX6 throttle bodies are a snap to size by simply adding washers and longer bolts in the center to space them apart by 5mm.  The outters are still off a couple of mm, but will go together without issue.  The left side throttle cables found on the sports bikes are a little problematic.  You CAN make it work, but will need to think outside the box to solve the fitment problem.  I ran these on the original turbo with great success after bending the bracket over and adding a pulley system to allow the throttle cables to come in parallel to the throttle shaft and at 90* to the stock cable routing.  It can be done and it worked great... but it was a PITA to figure out and I built my own throttle cables. Grrrr!   Suzuki GSXR750 throttle bodies can be used and some years used 8 injectors.  Might be a cool setup, and I own a set of the throttle bodies in my collection, but haven't tried them.  They are a fairly close fit to the stock carb throats, but have the same cable issues as the ZX6 setup.

 Not sure I answered the question well, but that is the best fitting Throttle bodies IMHO.
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Offline GKreamer

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Re: Blasphemy! Single carb on ZG1000?
« Reply #27 on: October 09, 2017, 03:06:01 am »
...like drinking from a fire hose!  Thanks, you did answer!  My thought was to keep an eye out locally for any bikes that could be a donor.  My carbs still still run great (thanks SiSF!!!), but the efi switch sounds like an interesting project for down the road.  By slowly accumulating parts over time the outlay looks more reasonable to SWMBO!

Offline Rev Ryder

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Re: Blasphemy! Single carb on ZG1000?
« Reply #28 on: October 09, 2017, 03:43:15 am »
OK.  Then for a standalone system here is the basic list.  If you need specifics because you are actually going to begin collecting, let me know.  I'll get you part numbers.  This is off the top of my head.
There are no bolt on throttle bodies.  But I can help you make em fit.  It is a little tricky, but no big step for a stepper.


QTY:      DESCRIPTION:               ACQUIRE FROM:

1   Microsquirt V3 w/long harness         Either DIYAutotune.com or EFIsource.com
1   GM Intake Temp Sensor
1   GM MAP sensor (I recommend the 3 Bar)
1   Coolant Temp Sensor
1   Innovate LC2 WBO2 Sensor and controller

1   Throttle Body Z1000 (complete)         eBay or Kawasaki forums
4   Injectors for ZX6 (light blue color)
1   Walbro fuel pump (external inline)GSL392   eBay or Amazon
8   Silicone Turbo hose reducer/couplers
12   Clamps for above (T-clamps or worm gear)
1   Mallory Fuel Pressure Regulator #29389   eBay, Amazon, Summit or other
2   Typical 30A Automotive relays
1   Fuse block or several inline fuse holders
1      Free flash from Rev.


 1       Adapter from Fred Boothe to connect two lines to former petcock location providing he is
willing to make them for you.
Assorted fittings  Lots of EFI grade hose clamps not regular hose clamps.  Fire is not your friend.
Plenty of EFI grade, high pressure hose.
Vacuum line.
Extra Wire assorted gauges 12-18

1   MaxTow Fuel Pressure Guage 0-100 psi OPTIONAL but highly recommended. This gauge is accurate and gives digital numeric feedback as well as a digital sweep gauge.  And I like green.

I hope this is helpful.
« Last Edit: October 09, 2017, 03:55:25 am by Rev Ryder »
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Offline Mcfly

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Re: Blasphemy! Single carb on ZG1000?
« Reply #29 on: October 09, 2017, 01:49:09 pm »
Just for hits and giggles, would it be easier or even possible to just transplant the ZX10 engine in, or are there issues going to shaft drive, or mounting into the frame... or both??! 

It's an interesting project, but it IS for the sake of doing, because the money spent is pretty much lost.  Having a ZG1000EFI would certainly be novel.
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Offline Stasch

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Re: Blasphemy! Single carb on ZG1000?
« Reply #30 on: October 09, 2017, 02:00:48 pm »
This type of thing has been done by Bergmen with the ZRX1200 motor transplant.

He was able to convert it from chain drive to the C10's shaft drive.

IIRC:

- The CS location was the same between the ZRX12 and ZG1000

- The 6 speed ZG1000 tranny dropped right in to the ZRX cases

- The Bevel Drive Unit was a bolt on to the ZRX cases with minimal fanfare.

ZX10 may not be the same at all.
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Offline Rev Ryder

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Re: Blasphemy! Single carb on ZG1000?
« Reply #31 on: October 09, 2017, 02:58:19 pm »
Yes, Bergmen pioneered the ZGRX transplant.  Now there are a couple of them.  I followed his lead and did the same with the ZZR1200 engine (same exact cases as the ZRX1200 but around 40 more HP) THEN added a turbo and fuel injection.  However, the ZX10 engine is a totally different animal.  You would have to fabricate a LOT to make it fit and then you'd have to convert to chain drive (Bergmen also did this for another guy).  The deal is, there is not a single fuel injected engine that shares the C-10's basic architecture.  The engines that are similar are the ZRX 1100 and 1200 family, the earlier Ninjas like the ZX1000 that the Connie was based on, the ZX11, and the ZZR1200 (also known as the ZX1200C).  The ZRX swap is pretty straight forward though quite involved.  The ZX11 and ZZR1200 swaps are much more difficult due to the upswept intake ports which can no longer accept their carburetors because of Connie's back-bone frame. 

As for the money being lost, it's a motorcycle... you started costing yourself money the day you bought it. LOL  I see $2k C-10s with $8k worth of farkling.  If ya like it, it's not lost.  I love going to the Nationals but it typically costs me the price of another a new EFI system OR TWO every time I go.  Totally worth it for the smileage.  I think the EFI is too, but that's me.  Part of my enchantment with this stuff is I love the challenge and the exploration of it.  It's not something anyone else has done and THAT makes it fun to me to do.
 
Figuring out what pieces I can make work in a new situation to solve a problem is fun. And then when I hit the switch and it fires up there is a sense of accomplishment... and even better... I know that it can sit for six months without issues, fires up on old, stinky gas without pampering, runs better than stock and delivers solid performance and mileage with zero risk of hydrolock, needs essentially zero maintenance, and there is no potential to spill gas on the floor of my shop... it makes me smile.  But again, that's me.  You should do what makes YOU happy.  I certainly do not believe it is something that is going to become commonplace unless I win the lottery and start giving systems away.  And what are the odds of that?   :rotflmao: 

But we are very far afield from the thread topic.  SO... to try and pull it back a little... I like the idea of a single carb conversion.  A long tube intake runner would/could dramatically increase low RPM torque and performance (though it will definitely cost power on top) while simplifying the system, lowering rebuild costs, and potentially quadrupling reliability over stock. These seem to be the qualities that everyone is always spending money to get.  I'm never going to shoot at someone for trying to do something different.  I say give it a shot.  You can always go back to stock.   :beerchug:
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Offline Jim Snyder

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Re: Blasphemy! Single carb on ZG1000?
« Reply #32 on: October 09, 2017, 03:37:02 pm »
I responded to this post last week and now my post is gone. And I didn't even say anything bad.
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Offline Mcfly

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Re: Blasphemy! Single carb on ZG1000?
« Reply #33 on: October 09, 2017, 06:28:34 pm »
But we are very far afield from the thread topic.  SO... to try and pull it back a little...

Sorry, My bad...  My thought was, it was replacing 4 smaller problems with one larger one, so I said just fuel inject it...   :truce:

With the air box out of the way, there would be a good deal of room for a carb and nice chrome air filter.
The intake manifold (as said before) would be the big chore...  I wouldn't even know where to begin.
It's a bit too much for a lawn chair mechanic like myself.   I think there's 4 carbs for a reason....   :o      :beerchug:
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Offline Rev Ryder

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Re: Blasphemy! Single carb on ZG1000?
« Reply #34 on: October 09, 2017, 11:06:47 pm »
I responded to this post last week and now my post is gone. And I didn't even say anything bad.
Maybe you just dreamed it.  Nothing missing that I can tell.  LOL

McFly, I'm thinking making/casting an aluminum manifold wouldn't be hard at all if one made a decent little model of it from wood or plastic or steel or clay, etc.  That could be a fun project to try.  Might be tricky to get really good distribution in the space provided.  I really think that is part of why there are four carbs.  Maybe a big plenum with a big carb on top (or back if side draft) then individual runners of reasonably equal length.  Kind of like a backwards car header.
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Offline Tour1

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Re: Blasphemy! Single carb on ZG1000?
« Reply #35 on: October 10, 2017, 06:56:57 am »
When I'm having trouble fitting the airbox in I think of many alternatives.  I'm a self-taught mechanic who learns things about engines now that I really should have known 40 years ago.  That said, what I would try if I tried, is to take parts off a GM 2.5 liter throttle body injected junker and fit them on an improvised intake manifold.  I'd put the crank sensor on the camshaft or something that turns at half the engine speed.  I could live with 1200 rpm idle if I had to.  The guiding principle would be a 1 liter at twice the rpm should breathe like a 2 liter.  And parts should come in below $200 for the first set, just get rid of the rest of the car.
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Offline Rev Ryder

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Re: Blasphemy! Single carb on ZG1000?
« Reply #36 on: October 10, 2017, 03:59:58 pm »
James, I actually tried that nearly 10 years ago.  I used stuff from an early 90's Geo Prizm my daughter had totaled... Failed miserably, never made a noise.  It was my first attempt to understand any kind of EFI.  BUT... you could probably make it work.  I just never got the ECU wiring right I suspect.  Mine was all done on a bench and not actually fitted on a bike chassis (makes changing stuff a lot easier), but had I made it run it easily could have been cleaned up to fit.  I did it mostly with a sawed off manifold and hoses and clamps.  The regulator, TPS, and MAP were on the manifold and I used a "Bosch" type cheapo inline pump.  A little newer vehicle with a better ignition system would be a lot easier to figure out.  But early 2000 Toyota stuff might be made to work.  Ya oughta give it a shot if you're so inclined... and it kinda sounds like you are.  :great: 
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Offline Tour1

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Re: Blasphemy! Single carb on ZG1000?
« Reply #37 on: October 11, 2017, 06:16:17 am »
James, I actually tried that nearly 10 years ago...It was my first attempt to understand any kind of EFI.  BUT... you could probably make it work... Ya oughta give it a shot if you're so inclined... and it kinda sounds like you are.  :great:
I'm much better at things like modifying the airbox for an easier install, but getting it put together the regular way makes that un-necessary.  I recall how simple the TBI looked on those cars though (forgetting the parts under the dashboard helps with the daydream).  Now I have more money than time, and I'm trying to learn how to follow directions.
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Offline Rev Ryder

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Re: Blasphemy! Single carb on ZG1000?
« Reply #38 on: October 11, 2017, 02:37:41 pm »
<SNIP>
... and I'm trying to learn how to follow directions.

I can identify with this character flaw trait.   ;)


I like to blame my ADD, but there may be more to it than that.  ::)
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Offline kevingore

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Re: Blasphemy! Single carb on ZG1000?
« Reply #39 on: November 04, 2017, 09:17:05 pm »
<SNIP>
 EFI C10s are out there
admittedly sparse, but most of the r+d is done....

They're thick as fleas around my garage.  Purple, black, green... turbo, NA, we gots em.

And 1 in utah black and blue

Offline Rev Ryder

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Re: Blasphemy! Single carb on ZG1000?
« Reply #40 on: November 04, 2017, 11:47:59 pm »
<SNIP>
 EFI C10s are out there
admittedly sparse, but most of the r+d is done....

They're thick as fleas around my garage.  Purple, black, green... turbo, NA, we gots em.

And 1 in utah black and blue

For a fact there is!   :beerchug:
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