Author Topic: block off plates: yea or nay?  (Read 1079 times)

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Offline batboy

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block off plates: yea or nay?
« on: June 19, 2019, 10:00:16 pm »
I have been reading all kinds of forum posts about putting block off plates onto the valve covers to eliminate the air injection system. Seems like a lot of people do it mainly to make it easier to adjust the valves. Except, a lot of people still have to take one or more bolts out to make enough room to wiggle the valve cover off the bike.

I have a desire to  eliminate something like this to simplify things and to gain performance. But, correct me if I'm wrong, I don't see the air injection system robbing the engine of power. The only bad thing so far that I've uncovered is it can cause the engine to run a bit warmer. If true, that might be all I need to do the block off plate mod.

I've got the top end of a 1989 ZX10 Tomcat engine and it has these hoses mounted on two flat plates (see photo). I like how that looks. Too bad it won't fit on the C10s instead of our camel humped reed valve holders.
« Last Edit: June 19, 2019, 10:15:01 pm by batboy »
1988 Kawasaki Concours ZG1000 - Ninja Edition
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Offline MAN OF BLUES

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Re: block off plates: yea or nay?
« Reply #1 on: June 19, 2019, 10:13:24 pm »
I suggest you make the bike run reliably at this point, put miles on it once you trust to ride it further than a retrieval vehicle will travel.. then ride it some more... needless farkling at this juncture is something we see every day... and ends up being moot...

 make the bike run.
ride it for 10k miles.
 then proceed with farkles
 ;) :73: O:-) O:-) :34:

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Offline batboy

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Re: block off plates: yea or nay?
« Reply #2 on: June 19, 2019, 10:34:59 pm »
I've been putting a minimum of 30 miles on it per day since the  carbs were reinstalled, including today. it's running fine.

Define "farkles." I thought that was gaudy accessories?

Hey, I'm just trying to figure out if those air injection valves hurt performance or not. As near as I can tell they don't hurt or help performance. But, there seems to be a lot of conflicting info in the forum posts regarding this topic and I was trying to sort it out. The reason I'm looking at the valve cover is sometimes soon I'm going to adjust the valves. If I decide to do the block off plates, it makes sense to do it at that time, right?

My main question is, does the air injection make the engine run warmer due to burning excess gasoline in the exhaust? Other pros and cons of the system?
1988 Kawasaki Concours ZG1000 - Ninja Edition
Bike has the usual accessories and modifications

Offline connie_rider

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Re: block off plates: yea or nay?
« Reply #3 on: June 19, 2019, 10:55:51 pm »
I recently asked that question; do the air injection valves hurt performance or not.
                                             do the block off plates help performance or not.

I don't think they hurt or help.
I think it just looks better, it's easier to do valve jobs, and it "may" help reduce/increase
 backfire if you install plates..
I think Murph still carries them.

Ride safe, Ted
« Last Edit: June 20, 2019, 01:17:38 pm by connie_rider »
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Offline Mettler1

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Re: block off plates: yea or nay?
« Reply #4 on: June 19, 2019, 11:56:13 pm »
  Murphs' has them. Makes it easier to remove cover. :great:
'94 Concours 115,000 miles-- 7th gear,2MM,KB fork brace,Over flowtubes,Stick coils,Tcro shifter,GPS,SiSF'sTorque cams,SPOOKFAK,block off plates, SS brake & clutch lines,KB risers, FENDA EXTENDA, emulators, SiSF carb Spa, Delkevic exhaust, Murphs' knee savers +grips, etc

Offline DC Concours

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Re: block off plates: yea or nay?
« Reply #5 on: June 20, 2019, 02:06:00 am »
agree with mob. and plus these things can cause pops. leave it alone as-is.

Offline batboy

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Re: block off plates: yea or nay?
« Reply #6 on: June 20, 2019, 02:57:18 am »
Thanks DC, you did mention a legit reason why the PAIR valve is there in the first place, it prevents deceleration pops. Guess I need to research other forums about the temp deal.

UPDATE: After several hours of research, this is what I conclude: no performance gained or lost if the PAIR valve is blocked off. The temperature is primarily increased in the exhaust system with an operational air injection system. I was more concerned about engine temp, so this is not a big deal, in my opinion. The Murph's block off plates usually require at least one bolt to be removed before the valve cover can be taken off. So, does the block off kit really make valve cover removal that much easier? As already mentioned, it minimizes decel pop (although some people like cackling pipes). Racers usually block it off to simplify things and to strip off a few ounces of weight. One last point that most people don't think about, tuning. If you're using a wide band for tuning, the PAIR valve is injecting additional air into the exhaust system which will throw the exhaust O2 readings off. Conclusion: Unless you're racing or using a wideband for tuning, it's probably not worth blocking off the PAIR valve.

Some of these post have me laughing. It's like COG is turning into a bunch of grumpy old men. "You dang young whippersnappers, stop modding your motorbikes!"

For the record, I'm not a kid, I'm retired. Anyway, maybe I better not say what I'm up to next. Here's a little clue.
« Last Edit: June 20, 2019, 12:41:23 pm by batboy »
1988 Kawasaki Concours ZG1000 - Ninja Edition
Bike has the usual accessories and modifications

Offline Jim Snyder

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Re: block off plates: yea or nay?
« Reply #7 on: June 20, 2019, 12:43:30 pm »
Batboy,
  I had ZG-10 decals made up several years ago and had them on the bottom fairing for years. They added atleast 5 hp !!!
« Last Edit: June 20, 2019, 12:49:40 pm by Jim Snyder »
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Offline batboy

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Re: block off plates: yea or nay?
« Reply #8 on: June 20, 2019, 12:59:27 pm »
Wow, if one sticker adds that much, I'll slap more on.

 :D

Nice looking bike. I like the carbon fiber muffler cans. Delkevic?
« Last Edit: June 20, 2019, 01:02:52 pm by batboy »
1988 Kawasaki Concours ZG1000 - Ninja Edition
Bike has the usual accessories and modifications

Offline connie_rider

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Re: block off plates: yea or nay?
« Reply #9 on: June 20, 2019, 01:21:07 pm »
Yupp…

Ride safe, Ted
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Offline m in sc

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Re: block off plates: yea or nay?
« Reply #10 on: June 20, 2019, 01:28:53 pm »
I pulled the plates completely off, and the reed valves, and drilled and tapped the holes in the cover, and put in stainless m8 set screws with some red loctite. then, i flap wheeled the crap out of the top of the mounts down, and drilled a small weep hole a the back left corner of each one of the boxes as low as i could -just incase- i got stock in a downpour and water got in there.  then repainted it with semi gloss caliper paint. plugged the hole in the airbox.

I also have one size up on the pilot jet and the fuel screws set to 1.75 out. No pops, runs a bit cooler, especially though the exhaust. after my stock setup melted the cooling fan blades I changed all of that. I also made heat shields for the 2 inner headers to save the new spal fan. 2 years, zero issues.

Did it make the motor run any BETTER? the jetting made a difference for sure, but that was to keep the circuit velocity up in the pilot circuit. These things are jetted pretty lean from the factory anyway, and with the crap fuels we now have it definitely helped.

Im sure this will get some snide or condescending replies but ive had zero issues with this setup. its what works for my bike.  (which is my old man utility/shopping/roadtrip bike) and has yet to fail me whenever i needed it to work. .02


Offline Jim Snyder

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Re: block off plates: yea or nay?
« Reply #11 on: June 20, 2019, 02:30:17 pm »
Wow, if one sticker adds that much, I'll slap more on.

 :D

Nice looking bike. I like the carbon fiber muffler cans. Delkevic?
Yes but it was Delkevic CAN not cans, only had one. That bike had my famous Con-Tario 4 into 1 header on it.
"Some days you're the windshield, and some days you're the bug" Get used to it cause thats life !!!

Offline connieklr

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Re: block off plates: yea or nay?
« Reply #12 on: June 20, 2019, 02:44:34 pm »
BB Said:

"Some of these post have me laughing. It's like COG is turning into a bunch of grumpy old men."

You gotta a problem with that? Damn right we are, and freakin' proud of it. 75 and counting here.

For the record, I removed the injection "stuff" primarily to clean up the top end. More poppy? Perhaps, and a little more noticeable with the Delkevic pipes. I made my own plates just to see if I could because I had the tools to do it. Not perfect, but they work just fine for me.

I originally used button head SS screws, but found that I still had to remove the RH screws and cover so I could clear the frame. I eventually countersunk the plates and replaced the screws with matching countersunk head screws. No issues now.

And for the record-squared: Like others have said, don't make too may changes in one fell swoop. If all goes to HIAHB, it's a whole lot easier to sort through the carnage to figure out, and correct the root cause.

Have fun.













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Offline batboy

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Re: block off plates: yea or nay?
« Reply #13 on: June 20, 2019, 03:21:11 pm »
Looks great! Very nicely done. Milling and machine work like that is beyond my abilities. But, I guess maybe I'll try to make my own crude block off plates from flat stock. What thickness? Would aluminum or steel work the best? I'll be installing an Innovate wideband on the bike to make tuning a bit easier. I never was very good at reading spark plugs. If not for the wideband, I would leave it alone.

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Bike has the usual accessories and modifications

Offline bajasam

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Re: block off plates: yea or nay?
« Reply #14 on: June 20, 2019, 03:40:54 pm »
fortunately for the few of us with no lathe or milling rigs there is Murph!! he has the answer for many of these mods at a decent price. Get rid of those valves and get his block off plates asap,you'll also be able to scrap a couple more of those nasty black hoses also.

Offline connieklr

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Re: block off plates: yea or nay?
« Reply #15 on: June 20, 2019, 04:49:10 pm »
Looks great! Very nicely done. Milling and machine work like that is beyond my abilities. But, I guess maybe I'll try to make my own crude block off plates from flat stock. What thickness? Would aluminum or steel work the best? I'll be installing an Innovate wideband on the bike to make tuning a bit easier. I never was very good at reading spark plugs. If not for the wideband, I would leave it alone.

Quire honestly, I had no idea Murph had them. Probably wouldn't of made any difference. With no formal training on machine tools, I'm a rank amateur, and that was the whole reason I wanted to try and do the deed.

How thick? One the holes are plugged, a couple swaths of duct tape would work. But seriously, 1/16" thick piece of aluminum would work just fine. Probably easier to work with too.

Or

as a couple have mentioned, you really don't need anything.
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Offline m in sc

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Re: block off plates: yea or nay?
« Reply #16 on: June 20, 2019, 04:56:29 pm »
if you plug the holes theres really no benefit aside from aesthetics and if it sits outside and you are worried about water/debris getting in there. (admittedly, it DOES look good, no doubt) I dont like unnecessary parts so  I left mine open, and i have access to a cnc laser and own a mill. Another benefit after i ground mine down is the valve cover just comes out no muss no fuss for a valve adjustment. I -was- going to make plates and use countersunk flush screws, but went the other way.

Offline batboy

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Re: block off plates: yea or nay?
« Reply #17 on: June 20, 2019, 05:34:00 pm »
Thanks for sharing how you blocked it off. I found some aluminum flat stock that is 1/16" thick. I can mark it, cut it out with hand tools and drill a couple holes. It's not a big thing to make flat cover plates.

m in sc, thanks for sharing your carb tuning settings. I have a notebook that I've been jotting down as much carb tuning and jetting info as possible. I plan on  tearing down my second set of carbs and doing a complete rebuild. But, that's another story.
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Bike has the usual accessories and modifications

Offline connieklr

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Re: block off plates: yea or nay?
« Reply #18 on: June 20, 2019, 09:22:40 pm »
I'd mentioned back when I did the deed, that I seriously thought about milling off the reed valve "box" flush with the top of the rest of the cover. I never did that, but still may sometime in the future - just for grins.

I do have a spare cover, so it may become the Guinea pig.
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Offline DC Concours

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Re: block off plates: yea or nay?
« Reply #19 on: June 20, 2019, 11:46:42 pm »
I still say leave them alone. You will be pissed off when your bike pops. You only need to remove the top once every 10-15k. It is not that much of a problem. An extra 3 minutes.

Offline Bill Hookman

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Re: block off plates: yea or nay?
« Reply #20 on: June 20, 2019, 11:59:36 pm »
I cut my plates out of blank electric box covers.
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Offline MAN OF BLUES

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Re: block off plates: yea or nay?
« Reply #21 on: June 21, 2019, 12:15:36 am »
I still say leave them alone. You will be pissed off when your bike pops. You only need to remove the top once every 10-15k. It is not that much of a problem. An extra 3 minutes.

 :)) :)) :)) :))
if that, using an air wrench.. bzzzzzt... bzzzzzzt.... bzzzzzzt..... bzzzzzt  done.
I always found it funny, when doing valves on both my C10's, "How difficult it was to remove 4 small bolts" and lay the assemblies back and off the top.. and proceding with the valve adjust at hand....


heaven help those buying a C14... there is no escape.. you guys are in for a treat....  :)) :)) :)) :)) :))

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Offline DC Concours

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Re: block off plates: yea or nay?
« Reply #22 on: June 21, 2019, 12:28:26 am »
I tell you mob... These damn, lazy kids nowadays. God help us if we ever have to call upon them for something truly important. Hahaha

Offline Jim Snyder

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Re: block off plates: yea or nay?
« Reply #23 on: June 21, 2019, 12:55:59 am »
I always loved it when someone would tell me, "They don't make one of th hose for your bike". That just made me want to make one myself. And I made alot of parts like this for my C-10. My block off plates were recessed inside the opening so nothing stuck up above the valve cover. Yes us old hands made alot of stuff work back in the day.
"Some days you're the windshield, and some days you're the bug" Get used to it cause thats life !!!

Offline batboy

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Re: block off plates: yea or nay?
« Reply #24 on: June 21, 2019, 01:57:12 am »
UPDATE: After several hours of research, this is what I conclude: no performance gained or lost if the PAIR valve is blocked off. The temperature is primarily increased in the exhaust system with an operational air injection system. I was more concerned about engine temp, so this is not a big deal, in my opinion. The Murph's block off plates usually require at least one bolt to be removed before the valve cover can be taken off. So, does the block off kit really make valve cover removal that much easier? As already mentioned, it minimizes decel pop (although some people like cackling pipes). Racers usually block it off to simplify things and to strip off a few ounces of weight. One last point that most people don't think about, tuning. If you're using a wide band for tuning, the PAIR valve is injecting additional air into the exhaust system which will throw the exhaust O2 readings off. Conclusion: Unless you're racing or using a wideband for tuning, it's probably not worth blocking off the PAIR valve.

I think people missed this post I made earlier. The only reason I decided to block off the PAIR valve is because I'm in the process of installing a MTX-L Plus wideband (for tuning and logging purposes). I'll probably mount the gauge pod up on the dash to the left of the clock.

I like how Bill Hookman thinks. I found a couple of those switch box covers in the closet. Now that's frugal.
« Last Edit: June 21, 2019, 05:36:27 am by batboy »
1988 Kawasaki Concours ZG1000 - Ninja Edition
Bike has the usual accessories and modifications