Author Topic: Braking issues - bleeding and grip  (Read 1170 times)

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Offline WillyP

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Re: Braking issues - bleeding and grip
« Reply #25 on: September 24, 2018, 07:17:28 pm »
The backwards bleeding Grant refereed to will work. just make sure you seal off all points of potential leak; bleeder screws and bleeder hose connections. push the fluid into the calipers from the master cylinder, left caliper to the clutch slave cylinder. Fluid will exit the clutch master cylinder. Or some reverse that and pressurize the clutch to brake system.

The clutch and brake systems are not interconnected.
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Offline JPD

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Re: Braking issues - bleeding and grip
« Reply #26 on: September 25, 2018, 02:44:25 am »
Make sure you get 2 syringes, one to push fluid in from the bottom and one to suck fluid out of the reservoir. Do not let it overflow. Start by sucking out the fluid to make room for the new.  Make sure you do both calipers. Go slow the hole in the reservoir is tiny.

Sometimes you can not push the air bubble down the line to have it come out the caliper. The air bubble should work its way to the top of the lines and as you work the lever it will vent into the reservoir. That is why you can tie back the lever over night and get back the firm lever. You are holding the brakes on long enough for the air to make it to the top of the lines, then the pistons push back some fluid and vent the air. Some times it needs help by back bleeding.

When I worked in general aviation we always bleed brakes from the calipers to the master cylinder.

Offline Wantabeach

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Re: Braking issues - bleeding and grip
« Reply #27 on: September 25, 2018, 03:22:17 am »
Stick with it. I bled and bled and bled. Air in the master cylinder was killing me. I help the brake lever open for multiple nights before I got the air out.
As for the brakes not feeling as tight; you had a bad caliper to start. Are you wanting to feel a sticky piston creating additional braking force? My lever pressure was much lower. Once on the road I realized i had plenty of brake pressure.
You'll get there. It just takes more time than anyone wants to put in!

No...I don't think I'm getting as much brake force as I did before because brake lever use to firmed up pretty quickly as the brake was applied.  It was a very slow leak but had been there a while from the mess it made.
Don't think the piston was that bad from reading other peoples experience. 

As mentioned, my pads and disc were very dirty with brake fluid.  When I rebuilt the calipers, I did not clean the pads well enough.  I did clean the disk with brake cleaner.  As noted the "grip" and "pressure" seemed weaker.  Since I probably cleaned the disc better than the pads, it lost the grip (gum on gum) if that makes sense. 

So I took the pads off and tried a method I read about which included me cleaning the pads with brake cleaner, soaking them in denatured alcohol, lighting them on fire (briefly) and then block sanding them a bit to knock the residue off.  I cleaned the discs again with steel wool and alcohol as well.  The result is that the brakes grip really good now but the lever pressure is still squashy (I can bring the lever close to the grip).  That said, I can almost lock up the front brakes.  So I was able to solve part of the problem but still believe I have air in the lines.  Still have not done the reverse bleed yet but will. 

Thanks for the input!
Paul
« Last Edit: September 25, 2018, 03:41:57 am by Wantabeach »

Offline Wantabeach

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Re: Braking issues - bleeding and grip
« Reply #28 on: September 25, 2018, 03:53:02 am »
Make sure you get 2 syringes, one to push fluid in from the bottom and one to suck fluid out of the reservoir. Do not let it overflow. Start by sucking out the fluid to make room for the new.  Make sure you do both calipers. Go slow the hole in the reservoir is tiny.

Sometimes you can not push the air bubble down the line to have it come out the caliper. The air bubble should work its way to the top of the lines and as you work the lever it will vent into the reservoir. That is why you can tie back the lever over night and get back the firm lever. You are holding the brakes on long enough for the air to make it to the top of the lines, then the pistons push back some fluid and vent the air. Some times it needs help by back bleeding.

When I worked in general aviation we always bleed brakes from the calipers to the master cylinder.

Ok...this method is starting to make sense now.  I really need to get those syringes.  How big do they need to be?  I see some online from 100 to 200 ML.  I'll go to Tractor Supply tomorrow. 

Thanks
Paul

Offline Bud

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Re: Braking issues - bleeding and grip
« Reply #29 on: September 25, 2018, 07:55:50 am »
Get the biggest one that they have.

Offline Wantabeach

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Re: Braking issues - bleeding and grip
« Reply #30 on: October 03, 2018, 07:47:55 pm »
Get the biggest one that they have.

I can buy 100ml or 200ml off Amazon.  Is 100ml enough or should I get 200ml?

Offline Bud

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Re: Braking issues - bleeding and grip
« Reply #31 on: October 04, 2018, 09:53:27 am »
Get the biggest one that they have.

I can buy 100ml or 200ml off Amazon.  Is 100ml enough or should I get 200ml?
I bought a 60ml from tractor supply and it was fine.  I don't know the capacity of the brake system, but it can't be much.  Maybe you're overthinking this just a bit.  I was thinking this morning about your problem and just told myself it's all done and that you just hadn't reported back yet.  It matters more that you GET a syringe than whether it's a 60ml, 100ml or 200ml.

Offline connie_rider

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Re: Braking issues - bleeding and grip
« Reply #32 on: October 04, 2018, 01:28:19 pm »
Wantabeach, your not the first to have this problem with the brakes.
Eventually, you'll get all the air out.

JPD sed; When I worked in general aviation we always bleed brakes from the calipers to the master cylinder.

We did the same on Navy aircraft.
  {Was told not to, but did it anyway}, and it worked great.
Had never thought about doing it to a motorcycle...

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Offline Bud

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Re: Braking issues - bleeding and grip
« Reply #33 on: October 04, 2018, 01:42:04 pm »
Did they tell you why they didn't want you to do it that way?  I'm that guy that always has to ask why.  It seems more logical to push the fluid in from the bottom.  Air bubbles naturally wanting to go up rather than down. 

Offline connie_rider

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Re: Braking issues - bleeding and grip
« Reply #34 on: October 04, 2018, 01:53:35 pm »
Did they tell you why they didn't want you to do it that way?  I'm that guy that always has to ask why.  It seems more logical to push the fluid in from the bottom.  Air bubbles naturally wanting to go up rather than down.

The military way is; Do it only as the manual sez…. {No thinking allowed}

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Offline Bud

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Re: Braking issues - bleeding and grip
« Reply #35 on: October 04, 2018, 04:08:24 pm »
If I had been in the military, I"d probably have been doing an awful lot of pushups.

Offline MAN OF BLUES

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Re: Braking issues - bleeding and grip
« Reply #36 on: October 04, 2018, 10:28:24 pm »
Make sure you get 2 syringes, one to push fluid in from the bottom and one to suck fluid out of the reservoir. Do not let it overflow. Start by sucking out the fluid to make room for the new.  Make sure you do both calipers. Go slow the hole in the reservoir is tiny.

Sometimes you can not push the air bubble down the line to have it come out the caliper. The air bubble should work its way to the top of the lines and as you work the lever it will vent into the reservoir. That is why you can tie back the lever over night and get back the firm lever. You are holding the brakes on long enough for the air to make it to the top of the lines, then the pistons push back some fluid and vent the air. Some times it needs help by back bleeding.

When I worked in general aviation we always bleed brakes from the calipers to the master cylinder.

Ok...this method is starting to make sense now.  I really need to get those syringes.  How big do they need to be?  I see some online from 100 to 200 ML.  I'll go to Tractor Supply tomorrow. 

Thanks
Paul

biggest one T/S has is a 50cc, which is about 1-1/2 oz, a bit shy of what I would want, more is better, and means less 'refills' and chances of getting more air in... but the big one is nice and robust, a bit pricely
https://tinyurl.com/y9ljosqs
these are cheaper, and very viable.. if you have time to wait for it to arrive...
you will need the LeurLock tip to attach a hose to tho...

https://tinyurl.com/y7n7utp2

this would work, but the hose will likely blow out, and you will need a bigger diameter hose to insert over the tip, and clamp it in place...
https://tinyurl.com/yawxj3cf
« Last Edit: October 04, 2018, 10:35:34 pm by MAN OF BLUES »

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Offline Bud

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Re: Braking issues - bleeding and grip
« Reply #37 on: October 05, 2018, 11:57:51 am »
This is what I used.  https://www.tractorsupply.com/tsc/product/producers-pride-luer-lock-syringe-60cc-capacity-pack-of-2I used some tygon fuel line that screwed into the tip.  IIRC I put a zip tie on the bleeder screw to keep it from being blown off.  I still use that syringe to suck old brake fluid from the master cylinders in my cars.  They come two in a pack for under 5 bucks.  Still have my spare hanging on the wall in the garage.  I would have bought a 100ml if they had one, but they didn't and this one got the job done.  Something else to be considered is the fact that the ancient rubber brake lines aren't likely to give a rock hard feel on the brake lever.  New lines should help provide a firmer feel when applied.  One other thought.  Having brakes that are easy to lock up can be just as much a curse as a blessing.  The rider needs to have the skill to modulate the brake lever so as not to lock up the front wheel and hit the ground HARD.  I learned that lesson back in the 80's on my GT750.  In those days, I wasn't smart enough to wear any riding gear....even gloves.  Skinning the palms of your hands hurts!

Offline Wantabeach

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Re: Braking issues - bleeding and grip
« Reply #38 on: October 05, 2018, 04:01:53 pm »
Get the biggest one that they have.

I can buy 100ml or 200ml off Amazon.  Is 100ml enough or should I get 200ml?
I bought a 60ml from tractor supply and it was fine.  I don't know the capacity of the brake system, but it can't be much.  Maybe you're overthinking this just a bit.  I was thinking this morning about your problem and just told myself it's all done and that you just hadn't reported back yet.  It matters more that you GET a syringe than whether it's a 60ml, 100ml or 200ml.

200ml syringe should be here today.  And as it relates to overthinking it.....almost every time!  I'll report back. 

Thank you,
Paul

Offline MAN OF BLUES

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Re: Braking issues - bleeding and grip
« Reply #39 on: October 05, 2018, 09:36:53 pm »
Get the biggest one that they have.

I can buy 100ml or 200ml off Amazon.  Is 100ml enough or should I get 200ml?
I bought a 60ml from tractor supply and it was fine.  I don't know the capacity of the brake system, but it can't be much.  Maybe you're overthinking this just a bit.  I was thinking this morning about your problem and just told myself it's all done and that you just hadn't reported back yet.  It matters more that you GET a syringe than whether it's a 60ml, 100ml or 200ml.

200ml syringe should be here today.  And as it relates to overthinking it.....almost every time!  I'll report back. 

Thank you,
Paul

just keep in mind, whatever amount you push from the syringe into the system, ends up somewhere... keep a close eye on the reservoir... and cover everything in plastic and towels, to soak up the mishaps...(if you don't admit to a spill, it never happened... just like going to Vegas...) :rotflmao:

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Offline Grant

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Re: Braking issues - bleeding and grip
« Reply #40 on: October 06, 2018, 12:11:56 pm »
Ok on that note ( MOB ) I am going to make a bleeder tool that we can pass around the group.
It will consist of a large syringe, hose and fitting to securely attach to the syringe and bleeder at the other end I will take a reservoir cover and install a through fitting that protrudes into the reservoir to the fill level and a hose from the fitting on the cover will drop into a bottle.
If one starts the process with emptying and cleaning out the reservoir this is not only  a bleeding tool but but an easy flushing tool.
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Offline Wantabeach

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Re: Braking issues - bleeding and grip
« Reply #41 on: October 06, 2018, 03:07:14 pm »
When I rebuilt the calipers on my 1983 GL650 Silverwing, I got frustrated with the standard bleed method that you've been using.  Just couldn't get anywhere that way.  I changed to the reverse bleed method and got it done pretty quickly.  If you're concerned about leakage at the bleed screw, you can put a small amount of teflon thread sealing tape on the threads of the bleed screw, and that should reduce any leakage there.  Try this method and I think you'll be back soon reporting success.
Well I think I screwed this up.  At one point, I had no lever at all.  I only open the bleed screw 1/4 turn like it said but I somehow got air in the system anyway.  I wonder if this process can "pull air in through the threads"? 

At one point, I drew fluid out with the syringe which did pull air in the line - I flicked the line until the air came up the line to the top of the syringe and then I pushed fluid back in.  Lots of air came out the master after that.  In the end, I got my bleeder pump and pulled a lot of fluid from the master through the calipers which I restore me back to where I started (not good).  It seems virtually impossible to get around the fact that the bleeder screw threads allow air into the system whether you are pushing or pulling air through the bleeder screw. 

Do you think it would be ok to use plumbers tape on the bleeder screw threads to limit air flow around the threads?  Anybody try that?

Thanks
Paul
« Last Edit: October 06, 2018, 03:15:55 pm by Wantabeach »

Offline Bud

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Re: Braking issues - bleeding and grip
« Reply #42 on: October 06, 2018, 05:26:59 pm »
Just keep it on the threads and you should be fine.

Offline JPD

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Re: Braking issues - bleeding and grip
« Reply #43 on: October 07, 2018, 01:01:26 am »
You should not be able to suck air into the bleed fitting. When you have it open it will be under pressure from the syringe attached to it. If it is too loose it will leak fluid out not draw air in. If you start with an empty reservoir you should push fluid up until the reservoir is full again then close the bleeder. Do not pull fluid back out of the bleeder with the syringe. If you are still getting air bubbles at the reservoir you need to use the second syringe to empty the reservoir and continue supplying fluid until no air comes out at the top. Repeat with the second caliper.

Also you can't pressure bleed if you have Murph's speed bleeders installed they have a check valve in them that will not let air or fluid back in.

Offline WillyP

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Re: Braking issues - bleeding and grip
« Reply #44 on: October 07, 2018, 06:49:51 pm »
If you really feel you must use Teflon, use liquid Teflon, never tape. But, if you need any sealant on the bleeders, you are doing something wrong.
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Offline nic1965

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Re: Braking issues - bleeding and grip
« Reply #45 on: October 08, 2018, 11:45:03 pm »
$.02 worth... while using a mity vac you can disregard any bubble like in ginger ale, they are likely being pulled past the threads, air in the system usually comes out as bigger burps. one way to avoid pulling air past the bleeder threads is to put grease or anti-seize around the bleeder, it wipes off easy afterwards. This works for me, humble enough to be corrected.

Offline Wantabeach

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Re: Braking issues - bleeding and grip
« Reply #46 on: October 11, 2018, 03:54:07 am »
$.02 worth... while using a mity vac you can disregard any bubble like in ginger ale, they are likely being pulled past the threads, air in the system usually comes out as bigger burps. one way to avoid pulling air past the bleeder threads is to put grease or anti-seize around the bleeder, it wipes off easy afterwards. This works for me, humble enough to be corrected.

That make sense. I will try it.