Author Topic: C-10 with linked brakes, thought's ??  (Read 3190 times)

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Offline kwn306

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C-10 with linked brakes, thought's ??
« on: November 20, 2008, 02:28:00 pm »
Hmmmm, having lunch today and was thinking about the C-10 and the cold ride this morning to work (21 deg. when I left the house @ 5:30).      I was also thinking of the idiot cager that attempted to run my off the HOV lanes around Woodbridge, VA (wish those people would get up earlier in the morning and have a couple cups of coffee before heading to DC).  While heading for a piece of asphalt that wasn't occupied by a cage, my agressive braking locked up the rear wheel and I was in perfect slide going east and west up a north and south highway.  Now I have done this before (BRRR Ride 2007) and relied on very old MX skills to get me out of my pending death defying situation.  Gathering my witts I proceeded to give the cager a one finger salute and a toungue lashing like only a VA Redneck can do.    Now to my point...C-10 linked braking.  I have a few friends that drive Yamaha Royal Star Ventures (YRSV) that have tied one front brake (right side) to the rear brakes to give you the effect of linked braking when stomping on the rear brake pedal.  The front brake lever would only operate the left front rotor.     Now the YRSV out weighs the C-10 probably by 200#'s or more and my buddies claim that bleeding the rear / front right braking system is a PITA, but the end result is much better controlled braking.    Any thought's and/or suggestions?    Kurt & Sue Nordstrom  Spotsylvania, VA  COG 6049 & 6049A  VA & WV Assistant Area Directors  
« Last Edit: November 20, 2008, 02:29:00 pm by kwn306 »
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Offline smithr1

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C-10 with linked brakes, thought's ??
« Reply #1 on: November 20, 2008, 02:53:00 pm »
My thoughts is brakes are one thing I don't mess much with.  Sure bleeding and pad options are nice but if you want any real changes then the system needs to be built and tuned for the bike by an eggspurt.  If you want abs or linked brakes buy a bike thats gotum.  ----------------------------------  I will answer any question.  It is up to you to figure out if I should have.    <p align="left">My Photos<br
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Offline kwn306

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C-10 with linked brakes, thought's ??
« Reply #2 on: November 20, 2008, 05:21:00 pm »
I find your comments puzzling from a person that has installed a "non-approved" electric solenoid valve on a fuel line on their Concours (your pictures).  Which I might add has been proven to reduce the fuel flow to the carbs under hard acceleration when used with a inline fuel filter. Plus if it takes a dump while riding you will go up in flames....at least I will be able to stop faster with the linked braking  ;)    I just thought this idea might spur some thought with the "Bubba the Lawnmower type or Kevin Baker type" Coggers and some good conversations might develop.    I can see merits in the theroy and might even attempt it on my 06 Ultra Classic considering all you have to do is look at the rear brake pedal and the damn thing will lock up the brakes :gasp:  Kurt & Sue Nordstrom  Spotsylvania, VA  COG 6049 & 6049A  VA & WV Assistant Area Directors
Kurt Nordstrom  Spotsylvania, VA  COG 6049

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Offline smithr1

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C-10 with linked brakes, thought's ??
« Reply #3 on: November 20, 2008, 07:00:00 pm »
Fuel valve does not keep me from stopping.  I also have a bypass and quick shut off for it.  As for flow restriction, that is something I am still testing and working on.  I am not telling you not to try it just that I would not do it.  ----------------------------------  I will answer any question.  It is up to you to figure out if I should have.    <p align="left">My Photos<br
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Offline Brett0769

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C-10 with linked brakes, thought's ??
« Reply #4 on: November 20, 2008, 08:09:00 pm »
Sounds like a good theory, but I'd leave it in the lab. Braking is by far the most important system on any vehicle and altering it outside of the manufacturer's specs could result in severe personal injury or death. Besides, when you locked up your rear, you knew what to do and came through it fine and dandy. Sounds to me like you're crafting a risky solution where you don't really have a problem.  
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Offline Slybones

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C-10 with linked brakes, thought's ??
« Reply #5 on: November 20, 2008, 08:26:00 pm »
I think there is a difference in the result of failure, in a solenoid causing lack of fuel flow and leaving you stranded with no gass getting to the carbs, -VERSUS - brakes not working leaving you dead.    How is the fuel solenoid going to cause you to go up in flames if you dump the bike?    Custom ABS would seem a bit more that I would want to bit off.     But linked brakes might not be too hard. A system like this would need a dual banjo at the rear brake with a line running to the front. Stick with stock 3 line setup. Even of you use SS lines. Replace the stock slitter with a new custom block that has the connection coming from the rear in addition to the 3 fronts. And a couple flow valves internal that makes it work right so it only operated one front brake and the front did not operate the rear. Bolts in place where the stock slitter is using the existing mounting points. Could work with the stock 3-line setup or aftermarket SS 3-line setups.    Not to sure about 2-line kits as this would mean some kind of contraption at the master cylinder. Dont know about that.     Kit would include:  - a pile of crush washers  - New banjo for the rear  - SS line that runs from the rear to front  - This cool new splitter / flow valve block  - Any new hardware for mounting ( longer bolts maybe ?? )  - tie wraps, etc.     If you can keep it from leaking it might work.    How know if we would be able to bleed this thing??    2003 Concours  COG #6953  http://mysite.verizon.net/slybones/Concours/connieMain.htm  
« Last Edit: November 20, 2008, 08:28:00 pm by Slybones »
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Offline Ranger Jim

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C-10 with linked brakes, thought's ??
« Reply #6 on: November 20, 2008, 08:27:00 pm »
There are a number of bikes that have a linked braking system (Honda GoldWing is one). I would suspect that a reasonably competent mechanic (of which I'm not) could adapt a braking systme from one of those machines to a C10. FWIW, the GoldWing also has an anti-dive set up in the front suspension. While probably not required for a linked braking system, it surely makes max-braking events much less traumatic.  
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Offline Slybones

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C-10 with linked brakes, thought's ??
« Reply #7 on: November 20, 2008, 08:37:00 pm »
thining about it, Speed bleeders are one way flow valves that are a simple spring/ball arrangement correct?    This cool new splitter would only have to have essentially 2 speed bleeder setups in it, and the 4 connections. this could be simple enough for the Bergmen types. Not me though.    One checkball prevents flow from the front from activating the rear. The other isolates the one from from the other front when the rear is applying pressure.  2003 Concours  COG #6953  http://mysite.verizon.net/slybones/Concours/connieMain.htm
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Offline Steve in Sunny Fla

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C-10 with linked brakes, thought's ??
« Reply #8 on: November 21, 2008, 10:22:00 am »
Slybones - as I read your post, it won't work. I see what you're doing with the one way valves, but when you activate the back brake and fluid goes to the front, it can't get back into the rear reservoir upon release. It also can't bleed back into the front reservoir, or then it affects the other front caliper. I don't see the front and back being tied together like that. maybe I'm missing something, I know you're a bright guy -  Steve   Shleper of the 7th gear unit and performance exhaust cam sprockets.       My bike - "SHOODABEN" - 1109cc's of what an 04 concours "shoodaben"!
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Offline Slybones

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C-10 with linked brakes, thought's ??
« Reply #9 on: November 21, 2008, 03:07:00 pm »
Steve, you didnt miss anything. That design wont work. I was just thowing out ideas. This is why I buy stuff from you and not the other way around.     So is there a better valving setup that might work. I guess I'll leave the technical details to someone else. I was only thinking of how we could easily adapt something like this. The idea is of a mechanical unit that mounts where the current slitter is, and just has all the lines coming to it, seems easy enough for the average Connie owner to install.    Seems like a worth while discussion versus just blowing it off as too dangerous or I'll never modify my brake system. With 6 pot calipers, SS lines, soon to have wave rotors, etc the only thing "stock" on my brakes in the master cylinder. Of course I dont see this as changing the basic design any, more like same design just upgraded. Where of course linked braking is a little more a basic design change versus an upgrade. But still if it was easy to mount and bleed the system with just a unit and an extra line, banjo etc this could be an easily adapted kit of some kind.  2003 Concours  COG #6953  http://mysite.verizon.net/slybones/Concours/connieMain.htm
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Offline Brent_OR

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C-10 with linked brakes, thought's ??
« Reply #10 on: November 21, 2008, 04:30:00 pm »
Linked braking will not prevent a rear-wheel lockup.  ABS will (if you're braking in a straight line), but linked won't...  Anytime you put too much pressure on the rear brake, regardless of how much you have on the front, it will lock up.    On extreme limited traction surfaces (downhill muddy road) linked braking can actually be a disadvantage.    The best way to avoid a rear wheel lockup is to regularly practice emergency braking.  Make the act of braking (while in a panic) something you do from muscle-memory. The only way I know how to do that is to regularly practice it in all conditions that you ride in.    Don't get me wrong; linked braking is not a bad thing for most riders, but I don't think it can replace a rider who regularly practices emergency/panic braking.    
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Offline Wess

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C-10 with linked brakes, thought's ??
« Reply #11 on: November 21, 2008, 07:50:00 pm »
I can remember when I got my first vehicle my professional driver dad telling me that stopping is more important than going.      This might sound hypocritical as I have a set of six pots to add, but other than that, I am not jacking with the brakes.    That being said, the brakes are by far the thing I like least about Pearl.  Respectfully Yours!  Wess Heavner  COG #8010 CDA #0239  
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Offline smithr1

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C-10 with linked brakes, thought's ??
« Reply #12 on: November 22, 2008, 07:58:00 pm »
I think it is great that we talk about it.  No worries.  I would love full on abs.  Anything short of that like 6 pots or wavy lays does not interest me all that much.  The stock brakes are more then good enough to stop as fast as any other non abs C10.  If it takes 5 more pounds of pressure with my hand to stop at the same rate as you I feel that is in my favor.  Makes it less easy to panic wash out.  We learn to control the brakes that are there.  It is better to know your brake and be use to it then keep changing it around and not know its feel at that moment you need it at 100%.  ----------------------------------  I will answer any question.  It is up to you to figure out if I should have.    <p align="left">My Photos<br
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Offline Slybones

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C-10 with linked brakes, thought's ??
« Reply #13 on: November 22, 2008, 11:18:00 pm »
Did you just say that stock brakes are as good as 6-pots ( or the 4 pots for that matter ) that all you have to to is squeeze a little harder, and thats a good thing?    Your freaking nuts.   2003 Concours  COG #6953  http://mysite.verizon.net/slybones/Concours/connieMain.htm
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Offline Slybones

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C-10 with linked brakes, thought's ??
« Reply #14 on: November 23, 2008, 12:41:00 am »
OK its going to be my "opinion" that:    For many years Connie owners had better brake pads and stainless steel lines for upgraded brakes. These improvements themselves improve brake feel and firm up the lever. But I would agree offer little in stopping distance in a true emergency braking situation. I would agree with smithr comments related to this improvement, which is what the vast majority of Connie owners do.    Wave rotors themselves offer a number of benefits in terms of heat dissapation, fade etc. But without real measured study I would go as far as agreeing that wave rotors in stock size may not provide any shorter stopping distances.    320mm rotors I think could make a difference. Even with stock calipers you move the clamping force out further from the center of the wheel. Part of the measurement of torque is the length of the lever arm. Even with clamping force and all else being equal, moving the calipers out further is essentially lengthing the lever arm correct?    Finally we have 4-pot and 6-pot calipers. With these I truly believe that we have improved the clamping force of the system. And I think it makes a difference. I would agree that it may depend on the load. For example compare the two systems at a 30mph controlled panic stop might produce less of a difference, than lets say 75mph on the freeway, loaded down with gear or two up. I think in situations like this the improved clamping force along with better leverage, and heat dissapation will provide for a shorter stopping distance.    IMO of course. It will be my opinion of course that some old study that has been around for years comparing stock bikes to SS lines and HH pads is not recent or relevant. I would want to see "recent" and relevant data with updated calipers and rotors proving I am wrong.  -- Otherwise I stick with my opinion, as I have ridden these setups for many miles on my own Connie.     2003 Concours  COG #6953  http://mysite.verizon.net/slybones/Concours/connieMain.htm  
« Last Edit: November 23, 2008, 12:45:00 am by Slybones »
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Offline Slybones

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C-10 with linked brakes, thought's ??
« Reply #15 on: November 23, 2008, 12:53:00 am »
Having said all that I agree that it is important to know your brakes. Thats why I do practice my emergency stops. In the popular David Hough book Proficient Motorcycling it says to practice them at the beginning of every riding season. I practice many times throught out the year. Way more often that suggested.  2003 Concours  COG #6953  http://mysite.verizon.net/slybones/Concours/connieMain.htm
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Offline Rev Ryder

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C-10 with linked brakes, thought's ??
« Reply #16 on: November 24, 2008, 03:45:00 am »
OK, if "I", Rev Rider, wanted to rig up linked brakes, I would tie all three lines together to a block and feed it with th front brake MC.  I would then install an adjustable proportioning valve in the line to the rear caliper, find the near impossible lockup point, and ride the snot out of it.  Now, whenever you apply front brake, you have all three.  The fronts act just like they always did and the rear cannot be locked up, but does apply to near lockup levels.  Not ABS, but linked and proportioned braking.    EDIT TO ADD:  Here's a valve that would work.  A larger swept volume MC "might"/might not be necessary.  http://tinyurl.com/5nt2kc      
« Last Edit: November 24, 2008, 03:49:00 am by Rev Rider »
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Offline smithr1

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C-10 with linked brakes, thought's ??
« Reply #17 on: November 24, 2008, 01:06:00 pm »
Rev if you set it to near lock up the rear on dry clean road will it not lock up way bad when you get on wet or dirty road?  My guess is yes so you would have to set it to not lock up on ice and therefor would be better off regulating it yourself... given you don't have true abs.    Sly, I think braking distance improvement will come from better tire to road friction more then how much torque you can apply to the rotors.  I can see that a wavy rotor or larger pads could improve fade though, I will give you that one.  Fade is not usually a problem in day to day riding or panic stop though.  ----------------------------------  I will answer any question.  It is up to you to figure out if I should have.    <p align="left">My Photos<br
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Offline Slybones

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C-10 with linked brakes, thought's ??
« Reply #18 on: November 24, 2008, 03:52:00 pm »
I agree that traction will make a difference. In the end braking distance will be limited by the weakest link in the system. Most the time that is rider skill at emergency braking manouvers. Braking force generated, traction, rider skill, all that comes into play. Will just have to agree to disagree. I think our cheap azz 2-pot calipers are a weak link that is limiting stopping distances with a capable rider. It will be more significant than just a few feet, especially under higher loads like freeway speeds two up, etc.  2003 Concours  COG #6953  http://mysite.verizon.net/slybones/Concours/connieMain.htm
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Offline Rev Ryder

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C-10 with linked brakes, thought's ??
« Reply #19 on: November 29, 2008, 12:08:00 pm »
Bob, the braking is PROPORTIONAL to the application of the front.  Let's say it receives 45% of the pressure that the front does... you will not apply the front as hard on dirty or wet conditions as you would on dry.  The proportion remains the same and you are still the one regulating it.    It will be similar to Linked-ABS exceot that you are the computer mudulating the lever.  If YOU think it is slick, you will apply whhat YOU consider to be appropriate pressure.  The Rear will get its fair share of that.  If you don't lock the front, the back PROBABLY won't lock either.  Sure it ain't ideal, but it's far more ideal than running around locking up the rear all the time.  
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Offline rneal55555_NH

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C-10 with linked brakes, thought's ??
« Reply #20 on: November 29, 2008, 02:51:00 pm »
Funny thing is the 1st gen Yamaha Venture had linked brakes and I've seen discussions o Venture site's about un-linking the brakes.     The thought of linked brakes intrigues me on the other hand I wonder what a linked system does the the ability to use the rear brake as a 3rd axis of control while maneuvering a slow speed.     Also for what it is worth linked brakes on the early Ventures had a unified system operated by the foot pedal that engaged the rear caliper and one front caliper. There was a proportioning valve installed to control how much pressure was applied to each.  The hand brake operated the second front caliper.  
« Last Edit: November 29, 2008, 02:59:00 pm by rneal55555 »
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