Author Topic: Cam chain guide jammed  (Read 260 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline DaanZ

  • GCE member - OTP traveller III - 2003
  • Big Wheels
  • Posts: 5
  • AREA: Southwest Area
  • COG#: Forum
  • Membership Level: Forum Subscriber
Cam chain guide jammed
« on: September 14, 2018, 08:34:27 am »
Hello there. I'm not a regular visitor to this forum but some of you may know me. I was OTP rider way back in 2003 and hosted the OTP riders of 2017 Marc and Dan. I loaned the latter my bike for the trip.

I've been doing maintenance for a long time now but today I made a stupid mistake and I don't know what to do, so I hope you can help me out. In short: I started the engine without the cam chain tensioner installed <ouch>. When I realised it I shut the bike down, and tried to get the tensioner installed. Alas, the tensioner doesn't go in all the way because the cam chain guide is jammed - I can't get it to move back inside against the cam chain.

My questions:
What happened? Did I just seriously f*ed the engine up?
Can I get the guide moving again without removing the top end?
What to do now? Do I have to install a new cam chain and/or new cam chain guide?

Daan
« Last Edit: September 14, 2018, 09:57:16 am by DaanZ, Reason: replace \'stuck\' for \'jammed\' »

Offline Pbfoot

  • Crotch Rocket
  • ****
  • Posts: 1273
  • AREA: South Central Area
  • COG#: 10807
  • Membership Level: Active
Re: Cam chain guide jammed
« Reply #1 on: September 14, 2018, 12:40:32 pm »
You are probably ok.  I would pull the valve cover and check the timing. When you shut off the engine the cam chain slack may have moved to the front.  Good luck!
If you don't have time to do it right, when do you have time to do it over.                                                                17" wheels, Nissin 4 piston calipers.1kg Sonic Springs.Cartridge Fork Emulators. KB Brace. Galfer brake lines  Free power mod.

Offline WillyP

  • I Need a Life
  • ******
  • Posts: 6085
  • Live Free Or Die
    • Suncook Carpentry
  • AREA: Northeast Area
  • COG#: 8799
  • Membership Level: Active
Re: Cam chain guide jammed
« Reply #2 on: September 14, 2018, 02:24:58 pm »
After following Pbfoot's advice, you might just need to retract the extendo thingy on the tensioner.
Smart people look like crazy people to stupid people.
pics

Offline Victor Salisbury

  • Crotch Rocket
  • ****
  • Posts: 1191
  • AREA: Southeast Area
  • COG#: 3673
  • Membership Level: Event Host
Re: Cam chain guide jammed
« Reply #3 on: September 14, 2018, 03:06:20 pm »
Like mentioned, I'd pop the cam cover and the timing cover to do a visual. Try gently reverse rotation on the engine because as mentioned the slack may be on the front side and not the back?
Vic Salisbury
COG #3673 
'97 Connie "The Grinch" 
Sarasota, FL 
www.cog-online.org 
Stupid Hurts! Wearing protective gear is much more comfortable.

Offline DaanZ

  • GCE member - OTP traveller III - 2003
  • Big Wheels
  • Posts: 5
  • AREA: Southwest Area
  • COG#: Forum
  • Membership Level: Forum Subscriber
Re: Cam chain guide jammed
« Reply #4 on: September 14, 2018, 03:14:41 pm »
Thanks guys, that's a bit of a relief. I just hoped I didn't have to pop the valve and timing cover because I did that last week (valve adjustment) and because I have an open air workshop - as in: I have to do it in the front yard. I guess I'll be doing some wrenching this weekend…

Offline Bob_C_CT

  • Sport Tourer
  • *****
  • Posts: 2027
  • AREA: Northeast Area
  • COG#: 9544
  • Membership Level: Active
Re: Cam chain guide jammed
« Reply #5 on: September 15, 2018, 08:35:21 am »
Daanz, good luck on the timing being ok and ends up being an easy fix.

Just a tip on the valve adjustment process for the next time you do it. Don't take the timing cover off to use the nut to turn over the engine if that is why you pulled the timing cover off. That nut is pinned to the shaft and you can shear the pin if you crank on it too much. Next time use a tap on the starter button to position the cam lobes where you need them.
97 C10,ZRX Front, Meanstreak rim

Offline DaanZ

  • GCE member - OTP traveller III - 2003
  • Big Wheels
  • Posts: 5
  • AREA: Southwest Area
  • COG#: Forum
  • Membership Level: Forum Subscriber
Re: Cam chain guide jammed
« Reply #6 on: September 15, 2018, 12:53:44 pm »
Thanks for the tip Bob, I'll try next time. I tried this before, but couldn't get the cams right. I've seen an experienced mechanic do it though :-)

Offline connie_rider

  • "OtP" {retired/assistant} Slave Labor
  • I Need a Life
  • ******
  • Posts: 8277
  • Help us make "OtP" possible! "AGAIN"
  • AREA: South Central Area
  • COG#: 4154
  • Membership Level: Asst. Area Director
Re: Cam chain guide jammed
« Reply #7 on: September 15, 2018, 02:26:54 pm »
Hi Daan.
    Good to see a post from you.
    Bad that it's this post...

I agree that your probably ok. But you must pull the valve cover and timing chain cover to do an inspection.
Also agree, turn the motor backwards a bit.
    But "jiggle" it (technical term} both ways to help loosen things up.
    Once it loosens, turn it forwards so that all the slack in the timing chain is correct.
While doing so, put a screwdriver {or other} in the cam tensioner hole and push gently.

NOTE: You can turn the engine from under the timing cover if you do 4 things.
 1) Watch Steve's video on how to do it. (@ 4 minutes)
           https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NpeG93CqFPw&t=89s
 2) Remove the spark plugs.
 3) Use wrenches on "both" spots.  {an Allen and a box end wrench}
 4) Turn it very carefully and use slow gentle force.

PS: 5) Call your Experienced Mechanic (ie; Gie) and talk with him..
             {He's been known to travel/help for gutten' bier}…
          Call his assistant (ie; Marc) and he may come too.
            {He will offer advise "moral support" and help drink the gutten' bier}.
      6) Buy lots of gutten bier!

PS-2: Your note reminded me; I still have a little tiny bit of your gutten' Cognac!

Ride safe, Ted

"All": This bike is one of the bikes that was used when Mark and Dan traveled "OtP"...
« Last Edit: September 16, 2018, 05:59:19 pm by connie_rider »
14 Connie (Traveler II) / 03 Connie (Buddy)
Gone but not forgotten; 87 and 00 Connies..

If your not already a COGger, "consider becoming one".
Help us make "OtP" possible again, DO IT NOW!!

Offline Nosmo

  • Crotch Rocket
  • ****
  • Posts: 1919
  • "We're all in this together" -- Red Green
  • AREA: Northwest Area
  • COG#: Forum
  • Membership Level: Forum Subscriber
Re: Cam chain guide jammed
« Reply #8 on: September 15, 2018, 05:07:40 pm »
On the center stand, put it in top gear and rotate the rear wheel.  The engine will follow.
2003 Connie    2007 Wee-Strom   

"What could possibly go wrong...click....go wrong...click...go wrong...click...go wrong..."

Offline DaanZ

  • GCE member - OTP traveller III - 2003
  • Big Wheels
  • Posts: 5
  • AREA: Southwest Area
  • COG#: Forum
  • Membership Level: Forum Subscriber
Re: Cam chain guide jammed
« Reply #9 on: September 16, 2018, 02:15:41 pm »
Thanks for the tips and the PS's :D Ted. Until now I have always rotated from the underneath the timing cover, and I've never done it the way Steve shows. Must have been lucky all those years - or have a gentle hand, who knows.

Anyway, I will get to it probably next weekend. From what I understand is that first I turn the engine a bit backwards, then jiggle it a little to get the tension off the chain. Then turn the engine forward (ie turn the nut anti clockwise) while gently pushing on the rear chain guide. And then I keep on turning the engine forward until all the slack is back at the rear side. Then I check if the timing is still correct.

I think I'll skip your PS 5 and 6 and drink the good beer myself - Yes, Dutch - like Scots -  ARE frugal!
It warms my heart to hear you still have some cognac left ;-)

I'll let y'all know how everything works out!

Offline DaanZ

  • GCE member - OTP traveller III - 2003
  • Big Wheels
  • Posts: 5
  • AREA: Southwest Area
  • COG#: Forum
  • Membership Level: Forum Subscriber
Re: Cam chain guide jammed
« Reply #10 on: September 16, 2018, 02:17:14 pm »
Hmmm, nice tip Nosmo. Isn't that very hard to do? Turning the back wheel in 6th gear?

Offline Nosmo

  • Crotch Rocket
  • ****
  • Posts: 1919
  • "We're all in this together" -- Red Green
  • AREA: Northwest Area
  • COG#: Forum
  • Membership Level: Forum Subscriber
Re: Cam chain guide jammed
« Reply #11 on: September 16, 2018, 04:10:59 pm »
Hmmm, nice tip Nosmo. Isn't that very hard to do? Turning the back wheel in 6th gear?

Some effort required but not that bad.  Remember the gear ratios will work backwards, in your favor.  A lot of wheel rotation for a little engine rotation.  It's good for setting valves, where you don't have to be really exact in the amount of engine rotation, but actually it might not be the best way for what you have to do now.  You need to be careful and not rotate too far or too hard, lest you smash whatever is jammed.
2003 Connie    2007 Wee-Strom   

"What could possibly go wrong...click....go wrong...click...go wrong...click...go wrong..."

Offline MAN OF BLUES

  • I Need a Life
  • ******
  • Posts: 7888
  • AREA: North Central Area
  • COG#: 5977
  • Membership Level: Active
Re: Cam chain guide jammed
« Reply #12 on: September 16, 2018, 05:57:17 pm »
I'd like to mention a couple of points, before Daan attempts this...

Getting the transmission to UPshift past second gear without the transmission turning at some semblence of speed, "theoretically" should not be possible, as there are lockout 'detent' balls in the transmission gear shaft to prevent it...
Some folks say that "wiggling" the rear tire forward and reverse, while having someone upshift the non running bike, works to overcome the detent balls...I've tried this many times, and could not make that occur, Others say they can.. I won't argue that.

I have 'ridden the bike" into the garage in top gear, after upshifting normally on the approach, and shut the bike off PRIOR to doing a valve adjust, and with the spark plugs all pulled out, I have turned the engine over in that manner, it doesn't take a lot of effort, but again, the plugs need to be out...

As Daan's camchain may have dislocated itself at the bottom drive gear, I also suggest pulling that timing cover off anyway, as it offers a place to see and poke at the camchain down there, to insure its freed up, and does go back into position on that sprocket during his repair.
It also lets him see the timing marks, so when he DOES go to inspect if cams are 'out of position', he can set at the TDC marks on the timing plate below, and verify the timing marks on the cams... before re-installing his cam chain tensioner again..

it also allows him to inspect, to make sure the plastic chain guides have not broken, and dropped down to the bottom... all things that should be looked at...

30 YEARS OF KAW.....Rich R. (the other one..)  COG 5977  JUSTAMEMBAHNOW
and if you are gonna call me names... it's MR. Analdweeb if you please...

Offline WillyP

  • I Need a Life
  • ******
  • Posts: 6085
  • Live Free Or Die
    • Suncook Carpentry
  • AREA: Northeast Area
  • COG#: 8799
  • Membership Level: Active
Re: Cam chain guide jammed
« Reply #13 on: September 16, 2018, 09:12:32 pm »
It might seem a lot of work to do all this, but shortcuts here could lead to worse things. Do it right, do it once.
Smart people look like crazy people to stupid people.
pics