Author Topic: CLACK-CLACK-CLACK dangit....  (Read 6732 times)

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Offline coffee_brake

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Re: CLACK-CLACK-CLACK dangit....
« Reply #25 on: June 30, 2016, 06:33:59 pm »
I'm listening...
Jenn in "Chaahlston, y'all...."

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Re: CLACK-CLACK-CLACK dangit....
« Reply #26 on: June 30, 2016, 06:41:24 pm »
I'm listening...


http://forum.cog-online.org/index.php?topic=61888.msg487373#msg487373

See pic in post #5
http://forum.cog-online.org/index.php?topic=61058.msg477769#msg477769

Look closely.....at his chain again....


Posting this pic for those not into reading old stuff....

« Last Edit: June 30, 2016, 06:46:35 pm by MAN OF BLUES »

30 YEARS OF KAW.....Rich R. (the other one..)  COG 5977  JUSTAMEMBAHNOW

Offline Bergmen

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Re: CLACK-CLACK-CLACK dangit....
« Reply #27 on: June 30, 2016, 06:45:20 pm »
I had a gas-in-the-oil fubar on my 1985 Honda Nighthawk S (no hydrolock, the gas apparently slipped past the rings). The engine made an awful clacking noise like you describe here and I thought for sure that it was a rod or main bearing. This after two oil/filter changes to flush out the mix.

I yanked the engine and split the cases only to find all of the rod/main bearings in fine order and they plasti-gauged well within spec. No other visible issues in the lower end. I scratched my head a bit and then pulled the valve cover and found the camshaft journals had begun to seize in the bearing surfaces machined into the head. A few of the journals had actually gotten hot enough to turn blue in color. I was able to hand finish the journals and bearings (this took days) and everything plasti-gauged fine.

In my case, I think the crankcase gruel was either too thin for the oil pump to build pressure to get the gunk to the top end or the lube properties were so far gone that the damage was caused by that. I think the crankshaft was saved because the level of the mix was high enough to bath the parts. I only ran it for maybe 30 seconds with the gas/oil mix. The cam damage worsened during my clackity ride I'm sure.

It eventually went back together fine and I rode it for several more years, then sold it to my son a couple of years ago.

Dan
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Offline coffee_brake

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Re: CLACK-CLACK-CLACK dangit....
« Reply #28 on: June 30, 2016, 10:21:17 pm »
Cam chain looking good.

Parts bike has pitted intake cam lobes. Pretty bad, I wouldn't run 'em. exhaust cam lobes look good.


Here's the new question. Can the followers from one head be installed with the cams from another?

I mean, that's what I did 70k miles ago. I just put in 1986 cams when my second set (under warranty) pitted and I've been running them ever since. That was about 50k miles on the  stock followers before I stuffed in the 1986 camshafts.

Can we pick the best followers from the two bikes and go on with it?
Jenn in "Chaahlston, y'all...."

Offline Scattered-Smothered

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Re: CLACK-CLACK-CLACK dangit....
« Reply #29 on: June 30, 2016, 10:22:11 pm »
I'm using cam followers from the donor motorcycle. The cams in the donor motorcycle are not very good. With mine being a 1987 model, the cams are in serviceable condition. Can I still use my cams and the followers from the donor engine? If not, it might not be cost worthy to do this job. I priced the followers and they are $60-$80 each.  Times that by 8 not including new cams and this could get very expensive. FYI  the followers from the donor engine are in much better shape.
You can call me SS. Short for Scattered-Smothered and it's not because of hash browns. You will know when we meet.  Currently own a 1987 Kawasaki Concours ZG1000. Past bikes. 1972 Honda 350Four. 1984 Honda Nighthawk 750. 1980 Yamaha 650 Special. 2000 Kawasaki Drifter 1500

Offline coffee_brake

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Re: CLACK-CLACK-CLACK dangit....
« Reply #30 on: June 30, 2016, 10:32:41 pm »
Oops, looks like we've posted on top of each other. Our apologies.
Jenn in "Chaahlston, y'all...."

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Re: CLACK-CLACK-CLACK dangit....
« Reply #31 on: July 01, 2016, 05:04:22 am »
Yes you can use the donor rockers with your cams...

Also, iirc, the rocker is the same as a 500 ninja rocker, if shopping on ebay..

30 YEARS OF KAW.....Rich R. (the other one..)  COG 5977  JUSTAMEMBAHNOW

Offline Scattered-Smothered

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Re: CLACK-CLACK-CLACK dangit....
« Reply #32 on: July 01, 2016, 11:05:47 am »
I got the new rockers in and cams. Everything is all torqued to specs and the cams timed according to the manual. After I got them in I hit the starter to make sure everything operated as it should. I don't think it would make any clicking noise by turning the starter, but everything was really quiet and was as smooth as it should be.

All I have now is do another valve adjust and put it back together and hopefully I will have adverted a disaster. As far as the gas getting into the crankcase initially. As soon as I discovered it the next morning, that evening I immediately drained all that was in the engine and put in fresh oil and a new filter. I then changed the oil every 500 miles with fresh Rotella 5-40 synthetic and the filter each time. When this happened, I was on my 5th oil change from the time it happened changing every 500 miles just to be sure I got all the gas out of the crankcase. I'm hoping by doing that, nothing else was damaged in the engine. I had been hearing that noise for a while prior to the gas going in the engine, and because this is my first Connie, I just figured the noise was something it made. Now I know it's not normal. Maybe the damage was done prior to me getting the bike and it took a while for it to show up? I will update on Saturday once it's all together and I test it.
You can call me SS. Short for Scattered-Smothered and it's not because of hash browns. You will know when we meet.  Currently own a 1987 Kawasaki Concours ZG1000. Past bikes. 1972 Honda 350Four. 1984 Honda Nighthawk 750. 1980 Yamaha 650 Special. 2000 Kawasaki Drifter 1500

Offline VTconnie

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Re: CLACK-CLACK-CLACK dangit....
« Reply #33 on: July 01, 2016, 02:22:19 pm »
Mystery noises are the worst. But Concours are the best, so hopefully this fixes it. I think you took care of the bottom of the engine with the oil changes, barring a major disaster these motors go 200K+ miles so they're tough.

Sounds like from other posters that the top-end of the engine is what is most prone to damage from oil-loss or diluted oil; A small amount of time with Gasoline-oil on already worn rockers might have been too much. I realize I am just echoing your own conclusions, but I think you should be fine.
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Offline coffee_brake

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Re: CLACK-CLACK-CLACK dangit....
« Reply #34 on: July 01, 2016, 04:02:27 pm »
Of course S-S DOES realize that the MOST IMPORTANT part of this job is pulling the carbs one more time to install one more set of float needles and a proper float adjustment.
We had adjusted them hanging in the air at the proper angle, S-S saw how I did it. But those needles just weren't sealing although they were new and the seating surface was polished and clean. I can't explain how Murph's new needles didn't work, but the fact remains, they didn't.

Is there any chance some idiot in this bike's past got at those seat with a power tool and ruined the shape of the seating surface?
Jenn in "Chaahlston, y'all...."

Offline millerized

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Re: CLACK-CLACK-CLACK dangit....
« Reply #35 on: July 01, 2016, 04:12:52 pm »
Is there any chance some idiot in this bike's past got at those seat with a power tool and ruined the shape of the seating surface?
There's a chance that some idiot ran the bike without oil for a week. If you don't know, you don't know and probably never will.

Seats are brass IIRC, brass is soft, anything other than straight cotton swabs lightly touching them could have scratched them.

You remember polishing 'brass' , right Jen? All that work, only to have scratched them with 'something' that somehow got on the polishing cloth or in the wad of Blitz while you were doing it....remember that? (unless you used 'Stabrite'...and I don't see you as 'that' type of person)

This brass ain't all that different. Look at the seats under a loupe, triplex or magnifying glass. If you see anything that looks like it's not highly a polished surface, make it one.

Again, just my opinion. I'm sure someone will force a new one on me in a minute.
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Re: CLACK-CLACK-CLACK dangit....
« Reply #36 on: July 01, 2016, 06:02:01 pm »
Knowing that this was Joan Moody's old bike, I seriously doubt it was ever run without oil... just saying... it did sit a long time tho, I'm sure...
to
As for the polishing of the brass seats, I wrote specific cautions about "over polishing" them in my carb article....

The problem is, the rubber tip of the needle requires a sharp clean "edge" to seal on... if you go overboard, and jamb the "Q" tip with polish, down into the hole, it kinda rounds out that edge, making it tougher for the tip to seal on....  my explanation was to use the qtip chucked in the drill, with polish on it, and do three 1 second taps on the face of the brass... not trying to hone the thing.
I haven't bought any needles from Murph for over 5 years, so I can't comment on if the K&L ones are changed, of the 30 or so kits I bought pror to that, I never had an issue with them...
Only issue I had with OEM Kaw needles was the $23 a pice price on them, but I have to consider all the Kaw parts are old stok now, and some hardening of the rubber may have occurred..

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Re: CLACK-CLACK-CLACK dangit....
« Reply #37 on: July 01, 2016, 06:04:26 pm »
Of course S-S DOES realize that the MOST IMPORTANT part of this job is pulling the carbs one more time to install one more set of float needles and a proper float adjustment.
We had adjusted them hanging in the air at the proper angle, S-S saw how I did it. But those needles just weren't sealing although they were new and the seating surface was polished and clean. I can't explain how Murph's new needles didn't work, but the fact remains, they didn't.

Is there any chance some idiot in this bike's past got at those seat with a power tool and ruined the shape of the seating surface?

  Sometimes it happens. Sometimes I have seats that are polished, new needles, properly set floats, and the fuel levels are still screwed. that's when I get to work for my money. Welcome to my world. Steve
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Offline Bergmen

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Re: CLACK-CLACK-CLACK dangit....
« Reply #38 on: July 01, 2016, 07:01:49 pm »
There's a chance that some idiot ran the bike without oil for a week. If you don't know, you don't know and probably never will.

The rod/main bearings and pistons/rings would not last long if that occurred. I'm talking blocks, not miles. The rod knock at idle would certainly alert anyone of lack of oil unless the rider is completely deaf.

Having inadvertently run an engine out of oil, the effect is immediate and unmistakable.

Dan
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Offline coffee_brake

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Re: CLACK-CLACK-CLACK dangit....
« Reply #39 on: July 01, 2016, 07:50:04 pm »
Dan that was your lawnmower story about running out oil, wasn't it?

Thanks all, the more points of view presented, the more we can understand.

I know the shop did some work on Joan's bike in the last few years she had it, mostly getting it to run after sitting up. Several times within a few years, it seems by the receipts. I just don't trust most shops to do a good job so I'm questioning every single thing I can think of where I know their hands have been.
Jenn in "Chaahlston, y'all...."

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Re: CLACK-CLACK-CLACK dangit....
« Reply #40 on: July 01, 2016, 10:46:43 pm »
There's a chance that some idiot ran the bike without oil for a week. If you don't know, you don't know and probably never will.

The rod/main bearings and pistons/rings would not last long if that occurred. I'm talking blocks, not miles. The rod knock at idle would certainly alert anyone of lack of oil unless the rider is completely deaf.

Having inadvertently run an engine out of oil, the effect is immediate and unmistakable.

Dan
Sarcasm, Dan. Sarcasm.
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Seriously, what do we really know about a bike past what has happened since we have owned it?
If you haven't torn the bike complete down, mic'd and inspected every little part inside....you are HOPING someone took care of it and trusting their word. Nothing more.
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Re: CLACK-CLACK-CLACK dangit....
« Reply #41 on: July 01, 2016, 11:16:42 pm »
Seriously, what do we really know about a bike past what has happened since we have owned it?
If you haven't torn the bike complete down, mic'd and inspected every little part inside....you are HOPING someone took care of it and trusting their word. Nothing more.

Unless the guy you sold it to you brings it to you for all service and repair. Sell, maintain, repair, and keep getting paid.... best of both worlds. Like I did with my '95.  ;)   :rotflmao:
« Last Edit: July 01, 2016, 11:20:50 pm by JPavlis_CA »
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Re: CLACK-CLACK-CLACK dangit....
« Reply #42 on: July 02, 2016, 02:54:57 am »
There's a chance that some idiot ran the bike without oil for a week. If you don't know, you don't know and probably never will.

The rod/main bearings and pistons/rings would not last long if that occurred. I'm talking blocks, not miles. The rod knock at idle would certainly alert anyone of lack of oil unless the rider is completely deaf.

Having inadvertently run an engine out of oil, the effect is immediate and unmistakable.

Dan

You can take a chance. My truck threw a rod through the pan and block, and all the oil exited in a hurry. I drove it home that way. It seized up twice but once it cooled started right up. Sat in my driveway and I would start it now and then to move for plowing.

However with a bike there's a strong possibility that the rear wheel would lock up when the motor seized up. I wouldn't risk that.
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Offline Scattered-Smothered

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Re: CLACK-CLACK-CLACK dangit....
« Reply #43 on: July 02, 2016, 11:40:48 am »
It just so happens when Bill Moody was maintaining this Connie for his wife Joan, he kept the most meticulous maintenance records I have ever seen. I have 3 notebooks completely full of hand written records of everything that was done when he was taking care of it. He changed a light bulb he would record it in the journal. Tightened bolts somewhere he would record it. All valve adjusts were recorded with a hand drawn picture of 8 circles side by side representing each valve and then what the measurement was prior to and after adjusting. The service manual I have that came with the bike is full of handwritten notes that show things he did or even show corrections in the book that he discovered. What I have is almost like a complete history of the Connie hand written by a very knowledgeable man. Shows problems that arose and how he came about fixing them. I really need to take the time and scan all his records into a file and share them. When I first got this bike from Coffee_Brake, she made a post explaining all the stuff we got along with the bike and even she told me how important all that I had was and should cherish it. After owning the bike now for 9 months, and all the work I've done and sweat put into it getting it back on the road and trying to get it running right, I now see in these records the same thing she saw when we first got it. I hope that I can do for this bike now and far into the future the same Bill did when he was working and maintaining it. One thing about these motorcycle's, they must be meticulously maintained and the owner must love doing it and it definitely pays it back in its performance and reliability over years and years. I think that's why there are so many good people that own these and are so willing to help each other out with their issues and problems. Sorry for going on but this bike has been a labor of love and after attending this year's national and meeting a lot of y'all, I'm proud to be a part of this group and be an owner of a concours.
You can call me SS. Short for Scattered-Smothered and it's not because of hash browns. You will know when we meet.  Currently own a 1987 Kawasaki Concours ZG1000. Past bikes. 1972 Honda 350Four. 1984 Honda Nighthawk 750. 1980 Yamaha 650 Special. 2000 Kawasaki Drifter 1500

Offline GKreamer

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Re: CLACK-CLACK-CLACK dangit....
« Reply #44 on: July 02, 2016, 07:21:45 pm »
 :great: :great: :great:

Offline coffee_brake

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Re: CLACK-CLACK-CLACK dangit....
« Reply #45 on: July 02, 2016, 09:52:06 pm »
top back together. Still knocking.

What now? Pull the head?
Jenn in "Chaahlston, y'all...."

Offline Bergmen

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Re: CLACK-CLACK-CLACK dangit....
« Reply #46 on: July 02, 2016, 10:10:11 pm »
Dan that was your lawnmower story about running out of oil, wasn't it?

No, it was a 1985 Toyota Supra. I had just returned from an overseas business trip and thought I would check the oil before driving 65 miles home (plenty of jet lag at work here). A quart low, I added one and forgot to replace the oil filler cap. About halfway home the rod knocks started at the same time the oil pressure light came on. Turned the key off within one second and coasted to a stop. Smoke under the hood, all of the oil was pushed out. I happened to have a case of oil in the back (250,000 miles, it was using oil). Refilled the crankcase and limped about 5 more miles before the knocking resumed. Called AAA.

Upon inspection, one of the rod bearings was self destructing (depositing aluminum on the crank journal, otherwise know as galling). It was probably rebuildable but decided to go with a junkyard engine instead. There is more to this story but I would be going way OT.

If my Dad were still alive at the time he would have disowned me...

Dan
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Re: CLACK-CLACK-CLACK dangit....
« Reply #47 on: July 02, 2016, 10:33:04 pm »
top back together. Still knocking.

What now? Pull the head?

you need to try to pin down the noise. Are you sure this isn't something like the alternator tensioner whacking the pressure plate? as they age, we're going to see more and more of that. steve
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Offline laker9142

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Re: CLACK-CLACK-CLACK dangit....
« Reply #48 on: July 03, 2016, 02:53:02 am »
You might check for a broken valve spring. Apparently not a common problem with these motors, but fits all the symptoms. Visual doesn't always tell the story, you will need to manually depress each valve with some kind of lever, and compare one to the other to see if one is weaker. You may have to pull the head to accomplish this.  Also, I only saw one rocker with any real damage, I would look at those springs first.

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Re: CLACK-CLACK-CLACK dangit....
« Reply #49 on: July 03, 2016, 05:47:01 pm »
It just so happens when Bill Moody was maintaining this Connie for his wife Joan, he kept the most meticulous maintenance records I have ever seen. I have 3 notebooks completely full of hand written records of everything that was done when he was taking care of it. He changed a light bulb he would record it in the journal. Tightened bolts somewhere he would record it. All valve adjusts were recorded with a hand drawn picture of 8 circles side by side representing each valve and then what the measurement was prior to and after adjusting. The service manual I have that came with the bike is full of handwritten notes that show things he did or even show corrections in the book that he discovered. What I have is almost like a complete history of the Connie hand written by a very knowledgeable man. Shows problems that arose and how he came about fixing them. I really need to take the time and scan all his records into a file and share them. When I first got this bike from Coffee_Brake, she made a post explaining all the stuff we got along with the bike and even she told me how important all that I had was and should cherish it. After owning the bike now for 9 months, and all the work I've done and sweat put into it getting it back on the road and trying to get it running right, I now see in these records the same thing she saw when we first got it. I hope that I can do for this bike now and far into the future the same Bill did when he was working and maintaining it. One thing about these motorcycle's, they must be meticulously maintained and the owner must love doing it and it definitely pays it back in its performance and reliability over years and years. I think that's why there are so many good people that own these and are so willing to help each other out with their issues and problems. Sorry for going on but this bike has been a labor of love and after attending this year's national and meeting a lot of y'all, I'm proud to be a part of this group and be an owner of a concours.

I guess I kind of eluded to that when I posted I doubt it was ever run dry...
Having known the Moody's for many years, I knew how meticulous Bill was, and I'm sure Joan shed a tear in private, after her pink rimmed Conni left the driveway...  10 years ago, Joan and I sat and went thru records of RWTW together, the ones she kept since RWTW #1,  I was truely impressed.
The epitome of COGdom right there...

I'll ask again, because I didn't get the full answer I was looking for originally, did you completely remove and check every link on that cam chain, by flexing it, and examining it, to see if there was a single compromised link? I'm talking about the complete full length of it.

30 YEARS OF KAW.....Rich R. (the other one..)  COG 5977  JUSTAMEMBAHNOW