Author Topic: CLACK-CLACK-CLACK dangit....  (Read 7566 times)

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Offline Scattered-Smothered

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Re: CLACK-CLACK-CLACK dangit....
« Reply #50 on: July 03, 2016, 07:50:27 pm »
The cam chain was not taken out and inspected prior to putting everything back together. I guess I could of easily missed a broken link or stuck link. I will say the knocking isn't as pronounced as before but it's still there. It's without a doubt on the left side or same side cam chain is on. Maybe I should do a video of the noise so everyone can actually hear it? Might be enough so that maybe someone has heard it before and could give some ideas. Could a valve have dropped and it's slapping the piston every time it comes up? When I did the valve adjust, I couldn't see where any valve had come undone and was missing inside the spring. I drained the oil to inspect it. No sign of gas was present. No sign of any aluminum. I also have a very strong magnet I put down in the oil and swirled it all around very slowly. Not one bit of metal was stuck on it. So at least I think there is nothing major. I believe I will first pull cam chain. Then check the alternator for the symptoms SISF pointed out. Next check the spring tensions and also verify the valves are in fact in place and not dropped. If I can't find anything since I'll almost be there I'll go ahead and pull the head. Lots of work to diagnosis this. That's okay as long as I can figure it out.
You can call me SS. Short for Scattered-Smothered and it's not because of hash browns. You will know when we meet.  Currently own a 1987 Kawasaki Concours ZG1000. Past bikes. 1972 Honda 350Four. 1984 Honda Nighthawk 750. 1980 Yamaha 650 Special. 2000 Kawasaki Drifter 1500

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Re: CLACK-CLACK-CLACK dangit....
« Reply #51 on: July 03, 2016, 09:08:37 pm »
I have never seen or heard of a valve spring breaking on any Kaw engine of this era, or evn on the predecessor KZ models... its a non issue...
Anyways, if one did break, you would have backfiring issues very clearly... same with a dropped valve, like if a keeper popped out.. you adjusted the valves, and I'm sure if Jen was there you both know how to do it...

Please do make a mini vid of the sound, and do an idle for 10 seconds, raise the throttle to approx 2500 rpm, and hold that for 10 seconds, and let it drop back an do 10 seconds more... you can add a 5 second hold at 3500 rpm also, but between all that we can better hear the timing, frequency, and flutter of the real thing...

It really would help.

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Offline coffee_brake

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Re: CLACK-CLACK-CLACK dangit....
« Reply #52 on: July 03, 2016, 10:45:51 pm »
It just so happens when Bill Moody was maintaining this Connie for his wife Joan, he kept the most meticulous maintenance records I have ever seen. I have 3 notebooks completely full of hand written records of everything that was done when he was taking care of it. He changed a light bulb he would record it in the journal. Tightened bolts somewhere he would record it. All valve adjusts were recorded with a hand drawn picture of 8 circles side by side representing each valve and then what the measurement was prior to and after adjusting. The service manual I have that came with the bike is full of handwritten notes that show things he did or even show corrections in the book that he discovered. What I have is almost like a complete history of the Connie hand written by a very knowledgeable man. Shows problems that arose and how he came about fixing them. I really need to take the time and scan all his records into a file and share them. When I first got this bike from Coffee_Brake, she made a post explaining all the stuff we got along with the bike and even she told me how important all that I had was and should cherish it. After owning the bike now for 9 months, and all the work I've done and sweat put into it getting it back on the road and trying to get it running right, I now see in these records the same thing she saw when we first got it. I hope that I can do for this bike now and far into the future the same Bill did when he was working and maintaining it. One thing about these motorcycle's, they must be meticulously maintained and the owner must love doing it and it definitely pays it back in its performance and reliability over years and years. I think that's why there are so many good people that own these and are so willing to help each other out with their issues and problems. Sorry for going on but this bike has been a labor of love and after attending this year's national and meeting a lot of y'all, I'm proud to be a part of this group and be an owner of a concours.

I guess I kind of eluded to that when I posted I doubt it was ever run dry...
Having known the Moody's for many years, I knew how meticulous Bill was, and I'm sure Joan shed a tear in private, after her pink rimmed Conni left the driveway...  10 years ago, Joan and I sat and went thru records of RWTW together, the ones she kept since RWTW #1,  I was truely impressed.
The epitome of COGdom right there...

I'll ask again, because I didn't get the full answer I was looking for originally, did you completely remove and check every link on that cam chain, by flexing it, and examining it, to see if there was a single compromised link? I'm talking about the complete full length of it.
No, MOB, I didn't go through every single link of the cam chain. perhaps this is in order...? S-S....calling S-S...
Jenn in "Chaahlston, y'all...."

Offline Scattered-Smothered

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Re: CLACK-CLACK-CLACK dangit....
« Reply #53 on: July 03, 2016, 11:09:25 pm »
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1xTBXM6txe41-Efq9EuFyFWEZz9Lih7-2kQ/view?usp=drivesdk

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1WK0_qR8Rnsvt9MSVpegvb-NkouuS3mlLsQ/view?usp=drivesdk

Sorry for the crudeness of these videos. There was a lot of distractions. Hopefully you will be able to hear the click clacking in these
You can call me SS. Short for Scattered-Smothered and it's not because of hash browns. You will know when we meet.  Currently own a 1987 Kawasaki Concours ZG1000. Past bikes. 1972 Honda 350Four. 1984 Honda Nighthawk 750. 1980 Yamaha 650 Special. 2000 Kawasaki Drifter 1500

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Re: CLACK-CLACK-CLACK dangit....
« Reply #54 on: July 04, 2016, 12:00:08 am »
I just fixed the links. Sorry
You can call me SS. Short for Scattered-Smothered and it's not because of hash browns. You will know when we meet.  Currently own a 1987 Kawasaki Concours ZG1000. Past bikes. 1972 Honda 350Four. 1984 Honda Nighthawk 750. 1980 Yamaha 650 Special. 2000 Kawasaki Drifter 1500

Offline mf-rabbit

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Re: CLACK-CLACK-CLACK dangit....
« Reply #55 on: July 04, 2016, 12:08:36 am »
Noticed the noise comming from the right side more pronounced than the left what does the chain and tensioner to the clutch look like?? Maybe I'm mistaken.

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Re: CLACK-CLACK-CLACK dangit....
« Reply #56 on: July 04, 2016, 12:19:05 am »
I'm going to pulling the cwaover tomorrow. I will say that I had to change the star spring about a month ago and the cover with the springs on them was marred up pretty good. I assumed it was because of the broken pieces floating around in there,  but now I'm thinking it may be because of a bad chain tensioner. Here's hoping so.
You can call me SS. Short for Scattered-Smothered and it's not because of hash browns. You will know when we meet.  Currently own a 1987 Kawasaki Concours ZG1000. Past bikes. 1972 Honda 350Four. 1984 Honda Nighthawk 750. 1980 Yamaha 650 Special. 2000 Kawasaki Drifter 1500

Offline mf-rabbit

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Re: CLACK-CLACK-CLACK dangit....
« Reply #57 on: July 04, 2016, 12:34:23 am »
Make sure and look for nicks in the cover if it's flopping around in there it will do it.

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Offline Scattered-Smothered

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Re: CLACK-CLACK-CLACK dangit....
« Reply #58 on: July 04, 2016, 02:02:34 pm »
Here is a picture of the alternator chain and tensioner. I'm not sure how to tell if it's good or bad. You can see all the dings and marks in the clutch plate cover and I'm assuming it was caused by the broken star spring I replaced about a month ago. Didn't think that damage would affect anything so I let it go.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B2xoyTXeT6f5eXVkZ3JHUTBPUGc/view?usp=drivesdk
You can call me SS. Short for Scattered-Smothered and it's not because of hash browns. You will know when we meet.  Currently own a 1987 Kawasaki Concours ZG1000. Past bikes. 1972 Honda 350Four. 1984 Honda Nighthawk 750. 1980 Yamaha 650 Special. 2000 Kawasaki Drifter 1500

Offline Steve in Sunny Fla

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Re: CLACK-CLACK-CLACK dangit....
« Reply #59 on: July 04, 2016, 02:18:08 pm »
the dings on the pressure plate are from the tensioner, not the star spring. I think you just found the clacker. Steve
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Offline turbo-max

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Re: CLACK-CLACK-CLACK dangit....
« Reply #60 on: July 04, 2016, 02:26:52 pm »
my 03 clutch looks way worse than that, it does the clacking when cranking over.
turbo lag is a courteous head start!    ~Jeff H
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Offline Scattered-Smothered

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Re: CLACK-CLACK-CLACK dangit....
« Reply #61 on: July 04, 2016, 03:05:30 pm »
SISF, thanks for your input and time. Unfortunately I pulled the tensioner off the parts bike and the bottom where the pin goes in is broken looks like I'll be sourcing one from somewhere else. Will update
You can call me SS. Short for Scattered-Smothered and it's not because of hash browns. You will know when we meet.  Currently own a 1987 Kawasaki Concours ZG1000. Past bikes. 1972 Honda 350Four. 1984 Honda Nighthawk 750. 1980 Yamaha 650 Special. 2000 Kawasaki Drifter 1500

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Re: CLACK-CLACK-CLACK dangit....
« Reply #62 on: July 04, 2016, 03:26:11 pm »
SISF, thanks for your input and time. Unfortunately I pulled the tensioner off the parts bike and the bottom where the pin goes in is broken looks like I'll be sourcing one from somewhere else. Will update

you need to change the chain also. when they chains get stretched all this starts to happen. Also look at the tensioner, where the plastic rail is on the chain. Is the end of the plastic guide busted off? I've seen that a few times on clackers. Steve
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Offline Mettler1

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Re: CLACK-CLACK-CLACK dangit....
« Reply #63 on: July 04, 2016, 06:45:43 pm »
  When I did my star spring I also replaced the tensioner AND the chain. Didn't want to go back in and have to buy a new cover gasket.
'94 Concours 115,000 miles-- 7th gear,2MM,KB fork brace,Over flowtubes,Stick coils,Tcro shifter,GPS,SiSF'sTorque cams,SPOOKFAK,block off plates, SS brake & clutch lines,KB risers, FENDA EXTENDA, emulators, SiSF carb Spa, Delkevic exhaust, Murphs' knee savers +grips, etc

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Re: CLACK-CLACK-CLACK dangit....
« Reply #64 on: July 04, 2016, 08:18:44 pm »
Yes. The end of the plastic piece was marred up where it had been knocking on that cover. I will replace chain and tensioner. Just as a test, I bent the spring on the tensioner to give it more tension. Put it back in fired up the. Bike. All noise was gone while in idle. Took about 3000 rpm and it came back  but not. Near as bad as before   looking around now for the best prices and get the parts on the way.  Thank goodness. Could of been a. Lot worse
You can call me SS. Short for Scattered-Smothered and it's not because of hash browns. You will know when we meet.  Currently own a 1987 Kawasaki Concours ZG1000. Past bikes. 1972 Honda 350Four. 1984 Honda Nighthawk 750. 1980 Yamaha 650 Special. 2000 Kawasaki Drifter 1500

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Re: CLACK-CLACK-CLACK dangit....
« Reply #65 on: July 09, 2016, 02:25:28 am »
This is starting to be ugly. Fixed alternator chain tensioner and chain and sprockets. Got 4 brand new float needles which by the way what a huge difference over the other 4 brand new ones that were in there  The spring on the back has tension on the new ones and the old new ones feel like they have hardly any. So gas in oil is now fixed. However after putting in much better cam followers and redoing the valve adjust, ckickity ckickity clack is still there. Small test ride around block  idled better than it ever has. But give it a little throttle and I'm getting there noise back. Symptoms are. Hardly any power, running much hotter than before and the noise. I did a coolant change in all this as well and I did in fact bleed the air out the system. My plan for tomorrow is to pull the valve cover and check the valve clearances first if it's all good check and see if any valves have dropped then most likely pull the head. I made a recording of the noise so i won't have to describe it.

file:///sdcard/Android/data/com.estrongs.android.pop/tmp/share/2016_07_08_23_05_44.mp3_download%26psid%3D1
You can call me SS. Short for Scattered-Smothered and it's not because of hash browns. You will know when we meet.  Currently own a 1987 Kawasaki Concours ZG1000. Past bikes. 1972 Honda 350Four. 1984 Honda Nighthawk 750. 1980 Yamaha 650 Special. 2000 Kawasaki Drifter 1500

Offline VTconnie

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Re: CLACK-CLACK-CLACK dangit....
« Reply #66 on: July 09, 2016, 03:03:09 am »
This is starting to be ugly. Fixed alternator chain tensioner and chain and sprockets. Got 4 brand new float needles which by the way what a huge difference over the other 4 brand new ones that were in there  The spring on the back has tension on the new ones and the old new ones feel like they have hardly any. So gas in oil is now fixed. However after putting in much better cam followers and redoing the valve adjust, ckickity ckickity clack is still there. Small test ride around block  idled better than it ever has. But give it a little throttle and I'm getting there noise back. Symptoms are. Hardly any power, running much hotter than before and the noise. I did a coolant change in all this as well and I did in fact bleed the air out the system. My plan for tomorrow is to pull the valve cover and check the valve clearances first if it's all good check and see if any valves have dropped then most likely pull the head. I made a recording of the noise so i won't have to describe it.

file:///sdcard/Android/data/com.estrongs.android.pop/tmp/share/2016_07_08_23_05_44.mp3_download%26psid%3D1

Like this?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GSseGMGU4RA


That engine was not long for this world. Worst part is I did everything you did, replaced the valve head, the ACT and chain, and still sounded like that. Noise started right before a highway commute home, bike had reduced power and was hot. Oil light came on as I got off the highway - shut the bike down, then after a moment restarted and rode home with oil light off.

Never pulled the engine apart, it sits on the floor of my shop. Final prognosis was a failed bearing in the crank or con-rods, it had a slight hydrolock (potentially by me) and that might have stressed the components. Lots of metal in the oil.

Good news is that bike was beat and my newer Concours has been all smiles.
<--2003 Concours C-10 "Conifer", -AKA- The Cruise Missile
1980 CB900C DOHC "Old Iron" -AKA- The Hill Climber                

Offline Nosmo

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Re: CLACK-CLACK-CLACK dangit....
« Reply #67 on: July 09, 2016, 04:17:26 am »
Have you checked the valve timing?  Any chance the chain got loose due to worn guides and jumped one or both of the cam gears?  Valve contact with pistons?
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"What could possibly go wrong...click....go wrong...click...go wrong...click...go wrong..."

Offline Scattered-Smothered

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Re: CLACK-CLACK-CLACK dangit....
« Reply #68 on: July 09, 2016, 04:22:25 am »
I followed the shop manuals instructions when I reinstalled the cams took a lot of pics and put them back in the way they came out. How can I check the valve timing now to ensure its done correctly so it's timed right?
You can call me SS. Short for Scattered-Smothered and it's not because of hash browns. You will know when we meet.  Currently own a 1987 Kawasaki Concours ZG1000. Past bikes. 1972 Honda 350Four. 1984 Honda Nighthawk 750. 1980 Yamaha 650 Special. 2000 Kawasaki Drifter 1500

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Re: CLACK-CLACK-CLACK dangit....
« Reply #69 on: July 09, 2016, 05:47:35 am »
If you followed the instructions and your pictures, you should be OK then.  Just double-check that with the crankshaft at the correct position, the proper reference lines on the cam gears are lined up with the top surface of the head per the illustrations.  If I recall, there is some confusion with one of the pics in the manual as far as using the "square"  holes vice the "round" holes on the gears.  I don't have my manual handy right now to reference it, and don't recall exactly what it says.  I haven't had mine apart for many years.  Perhaps SISF or MOB or other engine guru can chime in with more info on that.

Can you take a photo of the cam gears and post it for us to see?

Here's some info on diagnosing some engine sounds.  I wasn't able to get your sound recording to play for me, I don't know enough computers to do that.

Have you tried using a stethascope to pin point the noise?  If you don't have one available, a short length of rubber hose put to your ear and moved around the engine can help to zero in on it. 

The issue of lacking power and at the same time running hot may or may not be related, but it makes me suspect something in the combustion process is wonky, which leads me to suspect valve train.

I probably don't know enough about our engines to be sticking my nose in, either.  Hope I'm not heading you in the wrong direction, just some thoughts.

http://www.onallcylinders.com/2014/01/24/sounds-like-trouble-quick-guide-diagnosing-common-engine-noises/

https://www.bellperformance.com/blog/diagnosing-common-engine-noises
2003 Connie    2007 Wee-Strom   

"What could possibly go wrong...click....go wrong...click...go wrong...click...go wrong..."

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Re: CLACK-CLACK-CLACK dangit....
« Reply #70 on: July 09, 2016, 06:04:31 am »
Yes. The end of the plastic piece was marred up where it had been knocking on that cover. I will replace chain and tensioner. Just as a test, I bent the spring on the tensioner to give it more tension. Put it back in fired up the. Bike. All noise was gone while in idle. Took about 3000 rpm and it came back  but not. Near as bad as before   looking around now for the best prices and get the parts on the way.  Thank goodness. Could of been a. Lot worse

Sooooo this item has not been completely corrected yet???

When it is corrected, we can begin again, until that time, the issue of the noise,nwhich seems to be caused by what you found, has still not been done.
When you start changing 5 different things, before correcting a known issue, it simply exascerbates analysis..

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Offline Steve in Sunny Fla

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Re: CLACK-CLACK-CLACK dangit....
« Reply #71 on: July 09, 2016, 09:04:17 am »
experience tells me you replaced the fuel needles, but did not reset the fuel float height or fuel level. This is why the engine is lacking power. Steve
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Re: CLACK-CLACK-CLACK dangit....
« Reply #72 on: July 09, 2016, 02:07:36 pm »
I'll just throw this out there for general knowledge. Feel free to disagree, but I say this with ALMOST complete certainty. After listening to both yours, and the other fellas videos, its obvious that your clack is in the top end and his was in the bottom end. I say this because of the speed, or frequency of the clacking. Cams run at 1/2 the speed of the crank, and to me its rather obvious from the videos. This is ASSUMING that both motors were running at approximately the same idle speed. So if this is true then its relatively easy to figure out and fix.

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Re: CLACK-CLACK-CLACK dangit....
« Reply #73 on: July 09, 2016, 02:14:42 pm »
The alternator chain issue has been corrected. When I put the new float needles in I reset the float level height. I used a micrometer to measure the level and set them all at 17mm. I then put them together and used the clear tube attached to the float bowl and bench tested them and made sure I never raised the tube or I would get a false reading. I only had to go back and fix the #1 carb as it was barely off. I measured to the point where the bowl attached the the body of the carb. I think may have messed up the valve timing by maybe 1 tooth.  I'm going to be checking that first thing today here soon and report back. If it's correct and everything else looks like it's supposed too, it just so happens I have another engine with only 59k miles on it sitting next to me that I'm going to swap it out with. If I do need to do that, I'll come back and hopefully someone can assist in some tips and tricks that will make the swap a little easier.
You can call me SS. Short for Scattered-Smothered and it's not because of hash browns. You will know when we meet.  Currently own a 1987 Kawasaki Concours ZG1000. Past bikes. 1972 Honda 350Four. 1984 Honda Nighthawk 750. 1980 Yamaha 650 Special. 2000 Kawasaki Drifter 1500

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Re: CLACK-CLACK-CLACK dangit....
« Reply #74 on: July 09, 2016, 02:55:52 pm »
I'll just throw this out there for general knowledge. Feel free to disagree, but I say this with ALMOST complete certainty. After listening to both yours, and the other fellas videos, its obvious that your clack is in the top end and his was in the bottom end. I say this because of the speed, or frequency of the clacking. Cams run at 1/2 the speed of the crank, and to me its rather obvious from the videos. This is ASSUMING that both motors were running at approximately the same idle speed. So if this is true then its relatively easy to figure out and fix.

rods only knock every other revolution, too... effectively at the same rate a rocker would. Steve
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