Author Topic: CLACK-CLACK-CLACK dangit....  (Read 6791 times)

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Offline coffee_brake

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CLACK-CLACK-CLACK dangit....
« on: June 28, 2016, 01:37:42 pm »

Not my bike. Scattered-Smothered seems to have done something horrible to his '87 with 103k miles on it. It will start and idle, but under power it's making some horrible noise. He rode it like that for about ten miles at high speeds.

Not a knocking noise, more of a really loud clacking. His valves were adjusted pretty good, but after the noise there's ZERO clearance on some. Adjusting the cam chain tensioner (manual) didn't help. Valves don't suddenly make a racket like that. Sounds like top end left side.

Does that sound like a damaged valve train? Would a spun bearing make a different noise?

The time Scattered-Smothered spent riding while the floats were adjusted wrong likely put gasoline in the engine oil, possibly over a period of months, and the bike was getting very poor fuel mileage. He changed the oil several times but every time, it smelled like fuel. (Remember, this ain't my bike!)

I picked up a parts bike for its fairing and front end, but I did the test for a bent rod (measuring from piston top to edge of head cover with a dowel rod through the spark plug hole) and it passed. So I might have a good engine.

Sure would appreciate some educated guesses.
Jenn in "Chaahlston, y'all...."

Offline Jim

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Re: CLACK-CLACK-CLACK dangit....
« Reply #1 on: June 28, 2016, 01:56:23 pm »
How "zero" is zero?  Is it bad enough that the valve is staying open?  Since it started all at once and the valves were adjusted pretty well prior, any chance one of the lock nuts came loose and a valve is hitting the piston?

Offline Daytona_Mike

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Re: CLACK-CLACK-CLACK dangit....
« Reply #2 on: June 28, 2016, 02:55:57 pm »
He is going to have to pull the valve cover and recheck those lock nuts. Also worn cam follower (s) will make a god awful 'TACK TACK TACK' sound and you have to remove them to see the damage. Using a feeler gauge will not detect the problem.

Also make sure that cam tension-er is setup on the loose side. It is too easy to over tighten which can cause some major damage.
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Offline Scattered-Smothered

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Re: CLACK-CLACK-CLACK dangit....
« Reply #3 on: June 28, 2016, 04:30:51 pm »
Set the cam tensioner as the first thing. Wanted to do the easy fix first. Was off a little bit but the noise was still there. Pulled the valve cover checked the valve lash clearance. All but 2 valves on the intake side basically have zero clearance. Going to adjust them all tonight as the exhaust side were off too but not as bad. Hoping this fixes the noise. Don't want to do an engine swap.
You can call me SS. Short for Scattered-Smothered and it's not because of hash browns. You will know when we meet.  Currently own a 1987 Kawasaki Concours ZG1000. Past bikes. 1972 Honda 350Four. 1984 Honda Nighthawk 750. 1980 Yamaha 650 Special. 2000 Kawasaki Drifter 1500

Offline MAN OF BLUES

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Re: CLACK-CLACK-CLACK dangit....
« Reply #4 on: June 28, 2016, 04:59:55 pm »
This does not sound good....
Hopefully upon examination,.the locknuts backed off slightly, and with fingers crossed no damage was done to valves or cam followers.... hopefully....
Upon readjust better inspect the surfaces of the rocker contact points.... we have seen them wear, but that has nothing to do with valves getting tight.... it would actually be the opposite.

I'm hoping the camchain followers did not get wiped out due to overtightening the manual tensioner, one of my reasons for not recommending them to people is simply little or no feedback for folks to tell just how tight they actually made the adjuster...and once it overdone, and a slider wears, or worse yet, splits or breaks, its top end teardown time, because the pivot sites between the head, and the cylinder...

Bummer...

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Offline coffee_brake

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Re: CLACK-CLACK-CLACK dangit....
« Reply #5 on: June 28, 2016, 05:43:13 pm »
Thanks folks. Calm heads prevail.
Jenn in "Chaahlston, y'all...."

Offline Scattered-Smothered

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Re: CLACK-CLACK-CLACK dangit....
« Reply #6 on: June 29, 2016, 11:31:57 am »
Bad news. Fininshed the valve adjust. Made sure the cam tensioner was loosened so it didn't do any damage. Cranked it up and it's still making the same clack-clack-clack noise. Next step now is going to be pulling the head and accessing the damage.
You can call me SS. Short for Scattered-Smothered and it's not because of hash browns. You will know when we meet.  Currently own a 1987 Kawasaki Concours ZG1000. Past bikes. 1972 Honda 350Four. 1984 Honda Nighthawk 750. 1980 Yamaha 650 Special. 2000 Kawasaki Drifter 1500

Offline Steve in Sunny Fla

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Re: CLACK-CLACK-CLACK dangit....
« Reply #7 on: June 29, 2016, 11:56:55 am »
As Daytona Mike said, the issue could be the cam followers, and you cannot find it by doing a clearance check. He and I know about this firsthand, it happened to his bike, and I fixed it.

  the fact that you had zero clearance also bolsters this possibility.

  Basically the rocker arm wears a big divot into it, so that even though it appears to have no clearance at the valve, there is clearance at the cam lobe... only at certain points of the cams rotation. The rocker slaps up against the can, and there's the clack clack clack. It could only be found when the cam was removed and the rocker inspected.

  Obviously I'm not sure this is your issue, but it sure sounds similar. Good luck - Steve

 
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Offline Scattered-Smothered

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Re: CLACK-CLACK-CLACK dangit....
« Reply #8 on: June 29, 2016, 12:10:13 pm »
Steve, If that's what it is, that would be a blessing considering all the other bad things that could have happened. That will be the first thing I check now and fingers crossed.

Thanks again for the info and advice.
You can call me SS. Short for Scattered-Smothered and it's not because of hash browns. You will know when we meet.  Currently own a 1987 Kawasaki Concours ZG1000. Past bikes. 1972 Honda 350Four. 1984 Honda Nighthawk 750. 1980 Yamaha 650 Special. 2000 Kawasaki Drifter 1500

Offline mgoodrich

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Re: CLACK-CLACK-CLACK dangit....
« Reply #9 on: June 29, 2016, 02:42:35 pm »
What is being referred to as the "Cam follower" in this case?

Offline Daytona_Mike

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Re: CLACK-CLACK-CLACK dangit....
« Reply #10 on: June 29, 2016, 03:33:01 pm »
What is being referred to as the "Cam follower" in this case?


It is that  trapezoidal looking surface  on the rocker arm that contacts the cam  lobe. the only way to really inspect for a worn surface is to remove the cam. When they are worn the engine will make a realy loud 'Clack-Clack-Clack'
« Last Edit: June 29, 2016, 03:37:40 pm by Daytona_Mike »
Normally aspirated engines have perpetual turbo lag
2000 Red C10 1052 kit
2008  C14 Silver Dammit Full AreaP- Flies are put back in SISF_Flash
2011  KLR650   688 piston ported and polished
2011  KTM 530    This thing is FUN!!

Offline Scattered-Smothered

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Re: CLACK-CLACK-CLACK dangit....
« Reply #11 on: June 29, 2016, 04:50:11 pm »
When I get down to the cam followers, when I look at them will I know if they are worn? or do I need to put a micrometer on them to check and see if they are within spec?
You can call me SS. Short for Scattered-Smothered and it's not because of hash browns. You will know when we meet.  Currently own a 1987 Kawasaki Concours ZG1000. Past bikes. 1972 Honda 350Four. 1984 Honda Nighthawk 750. 1980 Yamaha 650 Special. 2000 Kawasaki Drifter 1500

Offline MAN OF BLUES

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Re: CLACK-CLACK-CLACK dangit....
« Reply #12 on: June 29, 2016, 04:58:55 pm »
They should have a clear evidence of wear if so, they will have an area the width of the lobe, smeared and worn into the surface, good ones normally  are smooth, shiney, and pit free


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Offline coffee_brake

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Re: CLACK-CLACK-CLACK dangit....
« Reply #13 on: June 29, 2016, 10:02:25 pm »

Exhaust cam out. Here is the #4 follower, the worst of them. 
Jenn in "Chaahlston, y'all...."

Offline coffee_brake

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Re: CLACK-CLACK-CLACK dangit....
« Reply #14 on: June 29, 2016, 10:08:39 pm »
This link has all the photos, including one of the corresponding cam with some scratches (?) on it.

https://1drv.ms/f/s!Atkca7z7lUhgoS7hDt_tGgOMESEF
Jenn in "Chaahlston, y'all...."

Offline coffee_brake

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Re: CLACK-CLACK-CLACK dangit....
« Reply #15 on: June 29, 2016, 10:26:32 pm »
Here's the cam followers from intake.

https://1drv.ms/f/s!Atkca7z7lUhgoTNbR_8g0qEGut63
Jenn in "Chaahlston, y'all...."

Offline Daytona_Mike

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Re: CLACK-CLACK-CLACK dangit....
« Reply #16 on: June 29, 2016, 11:28:41 pm »
Wow Jen, those look real bad. I am sure others will chime in soon.
The intake followers have that  wear line on them and for sure that will make  loud clacking sounds. It must have sounded gawd awful. They are supposed to be smooth and shiny.  Any idea what happened? Low on oil or brutally flogged? 
I had to hold my bike at WOT in 5th  for many hours on end  (all day) to do similar damage.
I am going to say that the cams and followers will need to be replaced.
Normally aspirated engines have perpetual turbo lag
2000 Red C10 1052 kit
2008  C14 Silver Dammit Full AreaP- Flies are put back in SISF_Flash
2011  KLR650   688 piston ported and polished
2011  KTM 530    This thing is FUN!!

Offline millerized

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Re: CLACK-CLACK-CLACK dangit....
« Reply #17 on: June 30, 2016, 12:32:24 am »
Yup....they're


New cams and followers, check the oil pressure to see if the pump is giving up the ghost. It's either spent it's life in 4th at 9Krpm or oil (what you pour in the 710 cap) ain't making it where it's supposed to be making it.
Heavy cleaning of everything when it's done...that metal went somewhere. Permanent use of a magnetic drain plug as well.
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Offline turbo-max

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Re: CLACK-CLACK-CLACK dangit....
« Reply #18 on: June 30, 2016, 02:09:13 am »
mmMMmmmm...toast....pfff, that will buff right out!!!  ;)
turbo lag is a courteous head start!    ~Jeff H
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Offline mgoodrich

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Re: CLACK-CLACK-CLACK dangit....
« Reply #19 on: June 30, 2016, 11:20:58 am »
"The time Scattered-Smothered spent riding while the floats were adjusted wrong likely put gasoline in the engine oil, possibly over a period of months, and the bike was getting very poor fuel mileage. He changed the oil several times but every time, it smelled like fuel. (Remember, this ain't my bike!)"

From the first post, is probably what caused the damage.

Offline coffee_brake

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Re: CLACK-CLACK-CLACK dangit....
« Reply #20 on: June 30, 2016, 01:10:24 pm »
I agree that the fuel in the oil is why this happened. And S-S has a very heavy throttle hand.  :motonoises:

Not my bike, and I am never gonna let this happen to my machine, so my parts bike cams and followers are up for use.


Can S-S just swap them out and keep on going? The '87 is kinda stuck in my car port.

Is there a good way to flush the crankcase and get the fuel residue out for good?

Obviously this job is going to go with a carb pull-and-float-adjust. S-S will likely pull the parts from my spare bike tonight and we're hoping they're in good shape.

Oh, and the thermostat housing is leaking, looks like a good time to get it all done.

Jenn in "Chaahlston, y'all...."

Offline millerized

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Re: CLACK-CLACK-CLACK dangit....
« Reply #21 on: June 30, 2016, 01:50:44 pm »

 Fuel in the oil, no lubrication...what else is ready to blow?
Rings still there?
Cylinder walls?
Bearings, wrists pins, crank bearings, bevel drive?
What is the next on the list to fail, hopefully JUST with a noise and not a complete cease of function?

Honestly, if the cams were like that in MY bike, the engine needs pulled and gone through.
You might get some sense of what it's like in there by the sediment in the 'oil pan' cover on the bottom and a compression check....might I said.
All that metal grit, coupled with no lubrication...."I" would be looking for a new motor rather than throwing good parts in an 'iffy' motor.
Just me.



I agree that the fuel in the oil is why this happened. And S-S has a very heavy throttle hand.  :motonoises:

Not my bike, and I am never gonna let this happen to my machine, so my parts bike cams and followers are up for use.


Can S-S just swap them out and keep on going? The '87 is kinda stuck in my car port.

Is there a good way to flush the crankcase and get the fuel residue out for good?

Obviously this job is going to go with a carb pull-and-float-adjust. S-S will likely pull the parts from my spare bike tonight and we're hoping they're in good shape.

Oh, and the thermostat housing is leaking, looks like a good time to get it all done.
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Offline turbo-max

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Re: CLACK-CLACK-CLACK dangit....
« Reply #22 on: June 30, 2016, 02:21:42 pm »
i agree...engine swap time.
turbo lag is a courteous head start!    ~Jeff H
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01 c-10 undergoing turbofacation     
03 c-10 some mods...alot of miles
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Offline Steve in Sunny Fla

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Re: CLACK-CLACK-CLACK dangit....
« Reply #23 on: June 30, 2016, 04:21:53 pm »
I may be the lone voice of dissent, but that the heck. Personally I don't think themajority of the rockers are that bad. Now admittedly I cannot discern depth of damage, and that matters. I have seen dozens of sets of cams and dozens of rockers, and there's a pretty common level of damage that you just kind of accept. In this case because there's a question of damage elsewhere in the engine, i think I would ascertain what rockers really have significant depths of metal missing, and replace just those, with attention to the corresponding cam lobes to see if they need to be replaced, too. Put it back together and run it. If it blows, it blows. If it runs forever, well, it IS a concours, right?  ;) Steve
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Offline MAN OF BLUES

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Re: CLACK-CLACK-CLACK dangit....
« Reply #24 on: June 30, 2016, 05:54:33 pm »
I may be the lone voice of dissent, but that the heck. Personally I don't think themajority of the rockers are that bad. Now admittedly I cannot discern depth of damage, and that matters. I have seen dozens of sets of cams and dozens of rockers, and there's a pretty common level of damage that you just kind of accept. In this case because there's a question of damage elsewhere in the engine, i think I would ascertain what rockers really have significant depths of metal missing, and replace just those, with attention to the corresponding cam lobes to see if they need to be replaced, too. Put it back together and run it. If it blows, it blows. If it runs forever, well, it IS a concours, right?  ;) Steve

I was trying to post last night and couldn't, but...

I agree with Steve...
I've seen worn rockers, and those just don't look all that bad compared to the WORN rockers I've seen...
Not saying I wouldn't replace them, I would .. but I'm not certain that is the real issue....
And a magnetic drain plug is kinda moot now...
I would be looking very closely at that cam chain, I've seen cases where the plates making up the chain have fractured, and broken, and this does make that noise when the chain is rolling around the cam gears... ususally its one of the outer plates on a riveted link assembly...

It also increases extreme wear on that plastic chain guide, the rear one.... that the tensioner pushes on....

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