Author Topic: COP Plug Gaps  (Read 729 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline connieklr

  • Street Cruiser
  • ****
  • Posts: 833
  • AREA: Northeast Area
  • COG#: 1608
  • Membership Level: Active
COP Plug Gaps
« on: April 25, 2018, 01:16:58 pm »
Curious about COP (stick coils) from those who may know.

ALL of our vehicles over the years have had a conventional coil/plug arrangement until I bought a new Honda CR-V for my wife a few years ago. During a maintenance once-over (oil, filter, brake pad check, etc.) this past w/e, I decided to take a look at the plugs. Lo and behold, the car uses a COP arrangement. And even tho' the car now has over 80K miles on it, the OEM Iridium plugs looked great and the gaps were still at dead nuts...... .044" dead nuts.

When I first pulled them out I thought I was going to have to tighten them up 'cause they looked wide, but the manual says they were correct.

So, is this a typical gap for ignitions using COPs? If so, what setting are you fellas (and gals) using for bikes you have converted to a COP arrangement? What's the plug gap on the C14?

???????????
________________
Guy Young
COG #1608
COG Life Member
Semi-Civilian
GB Young Services, LLC

Offline connie_rider

  • "OtP" {retired/assistant} Slave Labor
  • I Need a Life
  • ******
  • Posts: 8415
  • Help us make "OtP" possible! "AGAIN"
  • AREA: South Central Area
  • COG#: 4154
  • Membership Level: Asst. Area Director
Re: COP Plug Gaps
« Reply #1 on: April 25, 2018, 02:16:47 pm »
.031" - .035"..........

Amazingly, {per the manual} your supposed to replace the C-14 plugs every 7,500 miles. ???

Ride safe, Ted
14 Connie (Traveler II) / 03 Connie (Buddy)
Gone but not forgotten; 87 and 00 Connies..

If your not already a COGger, "consider becoming one".
Help us make "OtP" possible again, DO IT NOW!!

Offline connieklr

  • Street Cruiser
  • ****
  • Posts: 833
  • AREA: Northeast Area
  • COG#: 1608
  • Membership Level: Active
Re: COP Plug Gaps
« Reply #2 on: April 25, 2018, 05:19:46 pm »
.031" - .035"..........

Amazingly, {per the manual} your supposed to replace the C-14 plugs every 7,500 miles. ???

Ride safe, Ted

LOL!

Think my C10 has 85K on the plugs that are in there now. In all honesty, I did pull them out awhile back and hit them with the bead blaster.
________________
Guy Young
COG #1608
COG Life Member
Semi-Civilian
GB Young Services, LLC

Offline MAN OF BLUES

  • I Need a Life
  • ******
  • Posts: 8003
  • AREA: North Central Area
  • COG#: 5977
  • Membership Level: Active
Re: COP Plug Gaps
« Reply #3 on: April 25, 2018, 07:58:24 pm »
The stick coil and irridum plug combo is very impressive to us "old farts" that swapped and cleaned, and regapped plugs all our life...

It just works so well now it takes plugs out of the equation almost, as something to mess with... but, at $12 a pop, those plugs ought to last.... :rotflmao: :rotflmao:
All.kidding aside, the C14 FSM does call for inspection and replacement at a rediculously low 7500 mi interval...
When I first decided to check valve clearance, I bought a set.. and as I didn't adjust the valves, just checked clearances, I didn't use the new plugs... because they were perfect... 8-10k later, when I did adjust all my clearances, the plugs still looked prisitne, but I replaced them with the new ones, and stored the OEM ones for future use...

They do last a longggg time.

30 YEARS OF KAW.....Rich R. (the other one..)  COG 5977  JUSTAMEMBAHNOW
and if you are gonna call me names... it's MR. Analdweeb if you please...

Offline Rev Ryder

  • Officer
  • I Need a Life
  • ****
  • Posts: 8772
  • We came. We saw. We Concours-ed.
    • Presbychuck
  • AREA: South Central Area
  • COG#: 7235
  • Membership Level: Executive Director
Re: COP Plug Gaps
« Reply #4 on: April 25, 2018, 09:31:06 pm »
While I do have one C-10 that has COP coils, its not fair to compare it to the COP coil setup on vehicles designed with COP coils in mind.  Yes, the COPs are generally hotter than stink in most applications, but on the C-10 they are wired for half voltage (series instead of parallel) so I'm curious as to exactly what the true spark intensity/duration is for them in our C-10 application.  And can they force a spark across as wide a gap as those actually running on 12v?  I would think not, but they do seem to run well enough and they REALLY clean things up under the tank.  Someone needs to do some real world (laboratory) testing to measure them.  Maybe someday. LOL


Maybe not.
Fortis non Ferox
 Shafties Can't Wheelie

Offline Steve in Sunny Fla

  • Industry Member
  • I Need a Life
  • *
  • Posts: 7669
  • AREA: Southeast Area
  • COG#: 6977
  • Membership Level: Active
Re: COP Plug Gaps
« Reply #5 on: April 26, 2018, 09:27:56 am »
"Back in the day" with Shoodaben, I had stick coils and experimented with widening plug gaps out to .036" .  It didn't work.  The idle was ok, but the power and throttle response were clearly falling off as rpm / throttle opening rose. I went back to .027" and never looked back. Steve
C-14 ECU flashing for performance and rideability enhancement
C-10 Carb work , cams, & performance enhancements
 " Modifications for sport-tourers, BY a sport-tourer"
https://sites.google.com/site/shoodabenengineering/home

Offline Victor Salisbury

  • Crotch Rocket
  • ****
  • Posts: 1199
  • AREA: Southeast Area
  • COG#: 3673
  • Membership Level: Event Host
Re: COP Plug Gaps
« Reply #6 on: April 26, 2018, 10:35:52 am »
Stick coils here. Always stayed with the stock gap, cause there is a reminder there of what the gap should be on that sticker under the seat  :))
I briefly thought about experimenting, but figured my seat of pants diagnostics wouldn't be note worthy.
Vic Salisbury
COG #3673 
'97 Connie "The Grinch" 
Sarasota, FL 
www.cog-online.org 
Stupid Hurts! Wearing protective gear is much more comfortable.

Offline Cal

  • Mini Bike
  • **
  • Posts: 175
  • AREA: Northeast Area
  • COG#: 12008
  • Membership Level: Active
Re: COP Plug Gaps
« Reply #7 on: April 26, 2018, 11:23:48 am »
quite frankly I would not be making such changes to the ignition system without a lot of engineering types making proper review and test of the changes (thanks guys!)

I thought a change to the plug type, gap, spark source, etc. that increased the spark also risked damage to the piston crown in extended use (duh in the case of some Connie's) due to the increase in the spark itself.

thankfully I have not seen a need to change the stock setup.

Cal

Offline Bob H

  • Road Bike
  • ***
  • Posts: 465
  • AREA: North Central Area
  • COG#: 788
  • Membership Level: Active
Re: COP Plug Gaps
« Reply #8 on: April 26, 2018, 05:22:32 pm »
Note, this is my current understanding of how the C10 and C14's ignition systems work.  If anyone can provide better or additional insight please do so to educate us all!

The C10 system uses an "old style" coil, with an electronic "switch" replacing the old style points.  The "switch", the igniter, box merely switches 12V on and off at the right times to produce a high voltage (KV) pulse to the plugs, generated by the coil.  The coil stores magnetic energy during the 12V on time, and then creates a high voltage pulse to the spark plug when the switch suddenly interrupts the 12V in the primary windings and the magnetic field collapses. 

The C14 system uses an electronic system to generate a voltage pulse (72V) when commanded by the ECU.  This voltage pulse is sent to the stick coil which serves more as a transformer, boosting the 72V pulse to a much higher pulse (KV) which is applied to the spark plug.

When a C14 or similar stick coil is used on an old style C10 ignition system, only 12V is available to drive it, rather than the 72V pulse it was designed for.  Think of it somewhat like trying to run a fuel injector with only a 5 psi injection pump, when the injector is looking for something like 10,000 psi!  It may work, but it just isn't going to do as good a job!

Using a stick coil on a C10 system is probably going to result in lower voltage to the spark plug, and may not be adequate when the starter motor draws the voltage even lower.  This is likely why Steve's "Free Power" mod is especially helpful when stick coils are used.  It keeps the voltage at the stick coils as high as possible, although still limited by the battery voltage.

The end result of all this is that I suspect you don't want any larger gap than standard for a C10, or it'll be even harder to get good ignition since the voltage at the plug won't be high enough to jump a larger gap.
« Last Edit: April 26, 2018, 09:45:09 pm by Bob H »
Remember, much of what you see on-line is wrong or misguided, your task is to filter that out!
 '88 one owner:
Bone stock...and proud of it!!

Offline RWulf

  • Crotch Rocket
  • ****
  • Posts: 1674
  • AREA: North Central Area
  • COG#: 7122
  • Membership Level: Active
Re: COP Plug Gaps
« Reply #9 on: April 26, 2018, 11:59:31 pm »
Stick coils and C-10. Works just fine. T-Cro make up and sold some awhile ago, I brought
at the Wisconsin national and have never looked back. Besides cleaning thing up under the
tank they reduced the RFI ( radio frequency interference) to the point my CB did not need
a filter. Just to clear up a point, the voltage to each coil is 12 volts, the current does fall off
some with increased RPMs not enough to cause problems. The stock coil setup is what
is called wasted spark. It fires both plugs at the same time, one does nothing.

Offline Nosmo

  • Crotch Rocket
  • ****
  • Posts: 1925
  • "We're all in this together" -- Red Green
  • AREA: Northwest Area
  • COG#: Forum
  • Membership Level: Forum Subscriber
Re: COP Plug Gaps
« Reply #10 on: April 27, 2018, 12:14:51 am »
T-cro's stick coils, SISF's "7th gear mod", accidental "free power mod" before I knew what I was doing, SISF's 2 Minute Mod in the carbs, stock plugs, SISF's cam reclocking  (intake and exhaust), she fires in about 1 crank revolution, gets 45 MPG, and I can run the back roads all day in 4th gear without shifting, and....and.....well, it all just seems to work. :motonoises: :great:
2003 Connie    2007 Wee-Strom   

"What could possibly go wrong...click....go wrong...click...go wrong...click...go wrong..."

Offline Outback Jon

  • Sport Tourer
  • *****
  • Posts: 2198
  • AREA: Northeast Area
  • COG#: 9506
  • Membership Level: Active
Re: COP Plug Gaps
« Reply #11 on: April 27, 2018, 04:51:21 am »
Stick coils and C-10. Works just fine. T-Cro make up and sold some awhile ago, I brought
at the Wisconsin national and have never looked back. Besides cleaning thing up under the
tank they reduced the RFI ( radio frequency interference) to the point my CB did not need
a filter. Just to clear up a point, the voltage to each coil is 12 volts, the current does fall off
some with increased RPMs not enough to cause problems. The stock coil setup is what
is called wasted spark. It fires both plugs at the same time, one does nothing.
The coils on the stick coil setup are wired in series.  They have to be to get the correct resistance numbers.  So a 12V feed results in 6V to each coil.

But they work just fine that way.
"Outback Jon" Gould *** South Cairo, NY *** COG #9506 *** 2006 C10 "Blueline" *** CDA #0157 
2011 Subaru Outback 3.6R Limited - "Outback's Outback"

Offline Rev Ryder

  • Officer
  • I Need a Life
  • ****
  • Posts: 8772
  • We came. We saw. We Concours-ed.
    • Presbychuck
  • AREA: South Central Area
  • COG#: 7235
  • Membership Level: Executive Director
Re: COP Plug Gaps
« Reply #12 on: April 27, 2018, 01:11:11 pm »
Stick coils and C-10. Works just fine. T-Cro make up and sold some awhile ago, I brought
at the Wisconsin national and have never looked back. Besides cleaning thing up under the
tank they reduced the RFI ( radio frequency interference) to the point my CB did not need
a filter. Just to clear up a point, the voltage to each coil is 12 volts, the current does fall off
some with increased RPMs not enough to cause problems. The stock coil setup is what
is called wasted spark. It fires both plugs at the same time, one does nothing.
The coils on the stick coil setup are wired in series.  They have to be to get the correct resistance numbers.  So a 12V feed results in 6V to each coil.

But they work just fine that way.
Yes, the C-10 igniter refuses to function if the resistance falls outside of the stock coil's spec.  Wire them parallel as the COILS are designed for and it will not fire them at all. 
Fortis non Ferox
 Shafties Can't Wheelie

Offline Mettler1

  • Iron Butt
  • *****
  • Posts: 3261
  • You want answers? We got answers!!
  • AREA: North Central Area
  • COG#: 1431
  • Membership Level: Active
Re: COP Plug Gaps
« Reply #13 on: April 27, 2018, 02:19:34 pm »
T-cro's stick coils, SISF's "7th gear mod", accidental "free power mod" before I knew what I was doing, SISF's 2 Minute Mod in the carbs, stock plugs, SISF's cam reclocking  (intake and exhaust), she fires in about 1 crank revolution, gets 45 MPG, and I can run the back roads all day in 4th gear without shifting, and....and.....well, it all just seems to work. :motonoises: :great:

   Exactly the same here!!  Went for a couple of rides last week after setting all winter (full gas tank and stabilizer) and it still runs perfect !! :) :)
'94 Concours 115,000 miles-- 7th gear,2MM,KB fork brace,Over flowtubes,Stick coils,Tcro shifter,GPS,SiSF'sTorque cams,SPOOKFAK,block off plates, SS brake & clutch lines,KB risers, FENDA EXTENDA, emulators, SiSF carb Spa, Delkevic exhaust, Murphs' knee savers +grips, etc

Offline RWulf

  • Crotch Rocket
  • ****
  • Posts: 1674
  • AREA: North Central Area
  • COG#: 7122
  • Membership Level: Active
Re: COP Plug Gaps
« Reply #14 on: April 27, 2018, 04:54:58 pm »
Nosmo, sounds like you have my bike. If I get some rain this weekend I my
be able to get it out for a ride.
Buy the way I have 2 Concours for sale an 2002 & 2006. If anyone interested
PM me for details.

Offline Nosmo

  • Crotch Rocket
  • ****
  • Posts: 1925
  • "We're all in this together" -- Red Green
  • AREA: Northwest Area
  • COG#: Forum
  • Membership Level: Forum Subscriber
Re: COP Plug Gaps
« Reply #15 on: April 27, 2018, 05:20:24 pm »
Nosmo, sounds like you have my bike. If I get some rain this weekend I my
be able to get it out for a ride.
Buy the way I have 2 Concours for sale an 2002 & 2006. If anyone interested
PM me for details.

Uh, oh...then who's got MINE?  :o
2003 Connie    2007 Wee-Strom   

"What could possibly go wrong...click....go wrong...click...go wrong...click...go wrong..."

Offline RWulf

  • Crotch Rocket
  • ****
  • Posts: 1674
  • AREA: North Central Area
  • COG#: 7122
  • Membership Level: Active
Re: COP Plug Gaps
« Reply #16 on: April 29, 2018, 02:44:40 pm »
Ah, look around, I think you do?