Author Topic: Difficult to start  (Read 555 times)

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Offline Bham Greg

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Difficult to start
« on: October 25, 2018, 02:50:21 am »
Last April I bought a '98 C10 that was running a bit rough. Along with other maintenance and using the excellent info on COG I rebuilt the carbs with a K&L rebuild kit. Learned about setting float levels, synching carbs, etc. Since then it runs great (except for still hard to start) and have put on about 4k miles. What I assumed was the problem is gunk in the enchrichener valves. I had not pulled them out to clean when I did the rebuild. My thinking was that when the weather got colder I would tackle it.

The weather got colder. After taking carburetors out and unscrewing enrichener valves, they are clean and the channels are clean. I'm stumped and looking for ideas. Symptoms:
 - First start of the day is painful. It can take up to 5 minutes. (I had seen on this forum that it is good to turn to prime for 30 seconds prior to starting. This does not seem to make a difference in my case.)
 - Starter engaged the engine will typically start to catch for a second. Then I wait for a few seconds and repeat. Several times. Each time it comes closer to actually running. I leave the throttle at idle. As it starts to catch I job the throttle to keep it running. After 2 or 3 minutes of this the engine continues running. I begin backing off of the enrichener as the engine warms up. During this process the engine runs rough and occasionally backfires or quits.
 - It is harder to start when the weather is colder.
 - Have tried to start it without the enricheners engaged but then the engine doesn't even start to fire. 

Suggestions?

Offline DC Concours

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Re: Difficult to start
« Reply #1 on: October 25, 2018, 03:09:30 am »
You will burn your starter doing that. With the choke you shouldn't need to do anything with the throttle. And the backfiring can be due to too much unburned fuel. So are you getting too rich at startup?

Did you sync your carbs after rebuilding them?

Offline Bham Greg

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Re: Difficult to start
« Reply #2 on: October 25, 2018, 04:09:36 am »
Yes, I did sync the carbs. I ordered a synchronizer that Man of Blues recommended and it worked great.
Likely too rich, but that is when the enrichener is in.

Offline Victor Salisbury

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Re: Difficult to start
« Reply #3 on: October 25, 2018, 10:32:28 am »
Not all C10's require full choke (enrichner) on cold start up, you need to find the sweet spot. Start at full, hold the starter and gradually back off the choke until it starts up. If that don't help, might be some other significant issue, but I know full choke on cold start up for my C10's would not allow it to start up and run.
YMMV
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Offline turbojoe78_MA

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Re: Difficult to start
« Reply #4 on: October 25, 2018, 11:22:18 am »
Have you done the free power mod yet?  (improved ground for ignitor)

Also, check to see if your air box is cracked, or not sealed properly.

And, check to be sure the enrichener cable is pulling the linkage as far as it can go.
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Offline jettawreck

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Re: Difficult to start
« Reply #5 on: October 25, 2018, 11:30:53 am »
Enrichment slides adjusted properly so they are opening?? Is yes: Pilot jets orifices are tiny and get plugged or just a "skin" of film of evaporated fuel residue over the opening. After starting and warm-up does it run fine?? If so, I'm betting pilot jets. Those orifices are small enough that particles that pass through the tank/petcock and even the typical inline filter won't trap them. Disturbing the fuel tank during installation will churn up the gunk to do it. Did it to mine after installing my pristine SISF rebuilt/cleaned/jetted/overflow tubes carbs. Wasn't looking forward to carb R/R again but it was the only solution. Started great afterwards and always ran fantastic with the airbox/jetting mods.
« Last Edit: October 25, 2018, 11:33:57 am by jettawreck »
Snowmobiles, I have a bunch.
Motorcycles-I haven't had anything except dirtbikes 30 years ago, so this will be all new to me.
2005 C10 with Rifle w/s, SISF Exhaust sprocket, overflow tubes, 2 minute jet mod. (SOLD)
2004 Honda ST1300-the current mule.

Offline GeorgeRYoung

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Re: Difficult to start
« Reply #6 on: October 25, 2018, 12:07:11 pm »
Ignition wires not making proper contact with the ignition caps caused hard starting on mine.

If you measure resistance between ignition caps 1 - 4 ( and 2 - 3), you should get around 22 K Ohms, about 12 K Ohms secondary resistance, and 5 K Ohms each cap. Precision is not important, but if you find infinite resistance, you have found your problem.

I replace the components with 7mm stranded copper Accel ignition wire and NGK SD05F caps.

Offline bajasam

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Re: Difficult to start
« Reply #7 on: October 25, 2018, 04:05:24 pm »
Definitely your idle circuit is involved ,are you sure you have the spring,washer and oring in the right order on your mixture screws and 2 turns out, and re-clean those idle circuit passages again.

Offline connie_rider

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Re: Difficult to start
« Reply #8 on: October 25, 2018, 05:07:59 pm »
I would try replies #4 and #6 before digging into the carb's again.

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Offline Pbfoot

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Re: Difficult to start
« Reply #9 on: October 25, 2018, 07:01:33 pm »
When was the last time the valves were adjusted?
If you don't have time to do it right, when do you have time to do it over.                                                                17" wheels, Nissin 4 piston calipers.1kg Sonic Springs.Cartridge Fork Emulators. KB Brace. Galfer brake lines  Free power mod.

Offline Bham Greg

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Re: Difficult to start
« Reply #10 on: October 25, 2018, 07:46:33 pm »
Thank you all for the recommendations. Yes, it runs well after warmed up, including at idle. Engine stutters a bit around 3k rpm but I think I read here that is normal for these bikes. Yes, I did the grounding/free power mod, and yes, drained gas tank/cleaned petcock when I did the carb rebuild.
It is only the first start of the day that is hard. For example, after sitting at work for 9 hours it starts easy. Maybe this is because outside air temperature is warmer than in the morning.
Will start with:
 - enrichener cable adjustment
 - ignition wires and caps
 - air box for leaks
 - check that I put in the pilot jets properly

Valves have not been adjusted since I got it. I need to read up on how to do that.

Offline DC Concours

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Re: Difficult to start
« Reply #11 on: October 25, 2018, 08:07:56 pm »
How many miles does it have? Do you hear a nice sewing machine tapping sound? Valves should be checked. Starting issues with very tight valves.

There are many vids on valve adjustments.



Thank you all for the recommendations. Yes, it runs well after warmed up, including at idle. Engine stutters a bit around 3k rpm but I think I read here that is normal for these bikes. Yes, I did the grounding/free power mod, and yes, drained gas tank/cleaned petcock when I did the carb rebuild.
It is only the first start of the day that is hard. For example, after sitting at work for 9 hours it starts easy. Maybe this is because outside air temperature is warmer than in the morning.
Will start with:
 - enrichener cable adjustment
 - ignition wires and caps
 - air box for leaks
 - check that I put in the pilot jets properly

Valves have not been adjusted since I got it. I need to read up on how to do that.

Offline MAN OF BLUES

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Re: Difficult to start
« Reply #12 on: October 25, 2018, 09:25:04 pm »
there are so many little 'tidbits' that go un noticed when doing a carb build, to attempt to cover them all is hard to do verbally.. having done rebuild "clinic" in front of a mass crowd, it was easier to "show" than to talk about the little tidbits.

that said, sounds like a combo...
synching carbs to an engine that has not had the valves adjusted, is a waste of time, it helps, but will be short lived. Always adjust valves prior to carb services.

When reassembling carbs, and statically setting them up, ALL of the internal passages to the low speed circuit must be clean, and free of any blockages... i.e., the carb bodies, with the air screw needle, spring, washer, and o-ring removed, must ALL spit juice when shooting Gumout thru each carbs circuit, verified by all 4 holes in the front of the carbs body by the throttle plate, on all carbs. Then, with the correctly assembled carbs, all sitting together, the individual throttle plates must ALL be even, this is 'static synch' on bench, where the throttle plates are, and each one should 'cover' half of the front most hole in the series of 4, these are the ones that reside behind where the air needle pops up into the carb throat. This is where it all should be before attempting a synch, using a gauge, when the carbs are installed on the bike... then, all 4 carbs can be "throttled together" by the main throttle stop adjuster knob, to raise the RPM if needed during a gauge synch.. if this was done, very little if any adjustment will be needed to an individual carb, to bring them all 'equal' using a vac gage. After that' low speed idle can be modified by the adjuster knob...

as for the enrichment circuit... its a faucet, it's on or off, and plays little other than that, yeah, it is adjustable by it's lever, but full on or full off, it's just not a 'delicate adjustment... just enriches the flow for starting... the throttle plates, and the 4 tiny holes in the carb throat are the parts where minute adjustments make a big difference. And in conjunction with the diaphragms during the 3000 rpm range using enrichment at startup, they also come into play, as a compromised diaphragm will tend to cause one carb to spit, and cough at that range.

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Offline jettawreck

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Re: Difficult to start
« Reply #13 on: October 25, 2018, 10:40:32 pm »
Thank you all for the recommendations. Yes, it runs well after warmed up, including at idle. Engine stutters a bit around 3k rpm but I think I read here that is normal for these bikes. Yes, I did the grounding/free power mod, and yes, drained gas tank/cleaned petcock when I did the carb rebuild.
It is only the first start of the day that is hard. For example, after sitting at work for 9 hours it starts easy. Maybe this is because outside air temperature is warmer than in the morning.
Will start with:
 - enrichener cable adjustment
 - ignition wires and caps
 - air box for leaks
 - check that I put in the pilot jets properly

Valves have not been adjusted since I got it. I need to read up on how to do that.

Has nothing to do with the pilot jets being "installed properly", it's whether or not they got gunked up or "skinned over" after your carb cleaning. Often during the reinstallation of the tank sediment gets churned up and even a flushed tank will still have some and refilling an "empty" tank is prime for sediment suspension. If gas remained in the carbs for extended time The skinning over doesn't take very long in warm climates or storage areas (and why SISF recommends a few ounces of two stroke oil added to the gas, which seems to do a good job of preventing that issue).
Most of the other suggestions are probably easier than R/R the carbs again, so probably verify all else first.
Snowmobiles, I have a bunch.
Motorcycles-I haven't had anything except dirtbikes 30 years ago, so this will be all new to me.
2005 C10 with Rifle w/s, SISF Exhaust sprocket, overflow tubes, 2 minute jet mod. (SOLD)
2004 Honda ST1300-the current mule.

Offline MAN OF BLUES

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Re: Difficult to start
« Reply #14 on: October 26, 2018, 12:26:34 am »
I think the o/p's comment about "pilot jets installed properly" is just a word thing, as a response to being told about the air needle adjuster screw, and the associated spring/washer/o-ring order of things... which would affect the low speed and warmup from start...

so give him a pass on that one,
as for adding 2 stroke oil to fuel all the time, again, people take this thing Bubba said, to an extreme, and basically his reasoning, and his recommendation, is for doing this for any long term storage, not a couple weeks in the garage during riding season.
 people tend to read into commentary about these things, and surmise they are all necessary for everything.. it's just not the case, and Steve will likely agree, yes, adding some TCW3 (ounce or so, and running the bike before shutdown for a storage) is a viable thing, but it isn't an everyday cure all, nor a recommended riding season necessity..
It's a storage thing. Resurecting a bike after a 13 year sleep, or a 6 month sleep, or a 4 week sleep, are all different.. fresh good fuel after a tank dump, without ever "trying the starter button", covers all of them, except the 13 year sleep one, which WILL require a manual clean internally. :rotflmao:

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Offline Bham Greg

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Re: Difficult to start
« Reply #15 on: October 26, 2018, 01:59:45 am »
Got it . . . valve adjustment first. Watched a couple of videos - will tackle it within the next couple of days.
DC Concours - 28k miles and no, there is no pinging.
MOB, thanks for your tips, here and on other posts.

Offline DC Concours

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Re: Difficult to start
« Reply #16 on: October 26, 2018, 02:03:12 am »
No tappy sound likely means your valves are out of sync and too tight. Do you know when they were last done?

Offline Bham Greg

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Re: Difficult to start
« Reply #17 on: October 28, 2018, 05:18:07 am »
Ignition wires not making proper contact with the ignition caps caused hard starting on mine.

If you measure resistance between ignition caps 1 - 4 ( and 2 - 3), you should get around 22 K Ohms, about 12 K Ohms secondary resistance, and 5 K Ohms each cap. Precision is not important, but if you find infinite resistance, you have found your problem.

I read in my manual how to do this and got a resistance of 2.9 Ohm (manual says 1.8 - 2.8 Ohm, not kOhm) on Primary windings and got infinite resistance on Secondary windings. Unscrewed the spark plug wires from the coil and still did not get any value for secondary winding resistance. The same is true on the second coil. So are both coils bad? And if so, why was the bike running after warmed up?
To be clear, I measured the secondary winding resistance at the contacts to the coil where the 2 & 3 spark plug wires screw in.
Also, what is the "5 K Ohms each cap" measurement? The Kawasaki service manual did not mention it.

Offline jettawreck

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Re: Difficult to start
« Reply #18 on: October 28, 2018, 12:07:22 pm »
The sparkplug caps have a 5k resister in them. I had some that had a bit of corrosion in and measured more resistance. After cleanup (they disassemble, don't lose the resister) they were fine/normal.
Coils usually are ok cold. Intermittent when heated up. 
Snowmobiles, I have a bunch.
Motorcycles-I haven't had anything except dirtbikes 30 years ago, so this will be all new to me.
2005 C10 with Rifle w/s, SISF Exhaust sprocket, overflow tubes, 2 minute jet mod. (SOLD)
2004 Honda ST1300-the current mule.

Offline strum

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Re: Difficult to start
« Reply #19 on: October 28, 2018, 12:28:14 pm »
  There is so many thing that could be wrong .
  Im thinking pull the tank and use a remote to make sure your getting proper fuel flow and make sure all your carb vents are clear
 Really the best course of action is to go through the valve adjust, new plugs , make sure spark is strong. then you have it isolated to the carbs for sure.  Im betting the pilot circuits are still not clear but the other things needs to be addressed first . See Steve's videos on valve adjust and why.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SQEFWeFeqUo
 
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Offline GeorgeRYoung

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Re: Difficult to start
« Reply #20 on: October 28, 2018, 01:33:35 pm »
. . .To be clear, I measured the secondary winding resistance at the contacts to the coil where the 2 & 3 spark plug wires screw in.
Did you try between coils 1 and 4?
 
Also, what is the "5 K Ohms each cap" measurement? The Kawasaki service manual did not mention it.
Resistance between the wire contact at cap top and the plug contact up inside.

Offline Bham Greg

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Re: Difficult to start
« Reply #21 on: October 28, 2018, 04:32:51 pm »

Did you try between coils 1 and 4?

I must have been doing something wrong last night. Now I am getting 11.6 kOhm between coils 1 and 4 and 11.7 kOhm between coils 2 and 3. So they are fine.


Also, what is the "5 K Ohms each cap" measurement? The Kawasaki service manual did not mention it.

Resistance between the wire contact at cap top and the plug contact up inside.

Thank you GeorgeRYoung. I'm having a hard time getting that measurement as the multimeter cable leads don't connect well at the end. But I'll figure it out . . . or just buy new ones.

Appreciate the help folks. I completed the valve job and am now working on the rest of my hit list:
 - ignition
 - enrichener cable
 - air box for leaks
 - carbs.

Offline connie_rider

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Re: Difficult to start
« Reply #22 on: October 28, 2018, 05:44:44 pm »
When you inspect your airbox, look at the lower/front edge of the box. That is where they normally crack.
I don't think that is related to hard starting, but worth a check.
I think your having fuel or spark problems.

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Offline MAN OF BLUES

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Re: Difficult to start
« Reply #23 on: October 28, 2018, 07:11:12 pm »
so now, please stop chasing electrical gremlins, put all the wires back to as they were, as you recently made a discovery in the "other area I noted above, addressing the "original issue of hard starting, and poor running"

http://forum.cog-online.org/concours-c10-zg1000-general-chat-and-tech/valve-adjustment-clearance/msg652544/#msg652544

good job, now you know that part is covered... and can report back....

 :rotflmao: :great: :great: :motonoises:

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Offline Bham Greg

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Re: Difficult to start
« Reply #24 on: October 29, 2018, 04:38:35 am »
so now, please stop chasing electrical gremlins, put all the wires back to as they were, as you recently made a discovery in the "other area I noted above, addressing the "original issue of hard starting, and poor running"

http://forum.cog-online.org/concours-c10-zg1000-general-chat-and-tech/valve-adjustment-clearance/msg652544/#msg652544

good job, now you know that part is covered... and can report back....

 :rotflmao: :great: :great: :motonoises:


That was what I needed to hear. Thank you! Did not realize the valve adjustment was the primary issue.  :-[ Stopped tinkering, put it all back together, and she started immediately. I had no idea these motorcycles started so easy.

Appreciate the help all.  :)