Author Topic: dreaded click, but starter won't spin  (Read 1755 times)

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Online m in sc

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Re: dreaded click, but starter won't spin
« Reply #25 on: May 23, 2019, 04:09:20 pm »
well, i meant the connections tot he starter switch. the coil in the relay may be faulty as well. ( i assumed at this point you had pulled the plugs). seems like you are on the short path now to getting this resolved.  :great:

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Re: dreaded click, but starter won't spin
« Reply #26 on: May 23, 2019, 04:51:20 pm »
Now that's an excellent question. I had not tried that yet, because I wanted to check for hydrolock before cranking the starter. Now that the spark plugs are out, that should be tested. I went out and laid a screwdriver across the two large terminals on the solenoid. After a spark or two, the starter cranked and spun the engine over. So, the starter motor definitely works and new battery does spin the starter. I'm back to the starter button. Here I go to clean it again.

You may want to run a jumper wire direct from the battery to the solenoid activation terminal, just for grins.
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Re: dreaded click, but starter won't spin
« Reply #27 on: May 23, 2019, 08:16:37 pm »

when you are cleaning that button, make sure to also clean the ends of that bronze spring in there, along with the hat shaped copper part, and also the point it contacts on the housing, the solder blob thing... use some fine sandpaper, and make then shiny.. spritze the after with some wd-40, and dry them before installing.

I get everything apart and used fine emery paper one time and Scotchbrite another time. I have cleaned the spring, brass/copper "hat" that sits in the button switch and the solder blob as described by MOB. I went from 9.75v to 10.2v.  This is frustrating, I've had this starter button apart a half dozen times now. Guess I'll try for one more time.
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Re: dreaded click, but starter won't spin
« Reply #28 on: May 23, 2019, 08:39:49 pm »
Might not be the switch. May be the plugs/wires/etc to/from the switch.
Do as MOB suggested on post #14.
   Use a VOM and check the ohm's/resistance to find where the problem is.

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Re: dreaded click, but starter won't spin
« Reply #29 on: May 25, 2019, 02:29:35 pm »
MOB said this in post #14:

Quote
when you are cleaning that button, make sure to also clean the ends of that bronze spring in there, along with the hat shaped copper part, and also the point it contacts on the housing, the solder blob thing... use some fine sandpaper, and make then shiny.. spritze the after with some wd-40, and dry them before installing..

also, you can do a simple Ohm reading of that button, by unplugging that harness connector, (it's actually not shown on the schematic you borrowed above, but it does exist..also note that is a gen II schematic '94-'06.) and checking resistance between the 2 blk/orang wires on the switch side... press the button and you should have 0 (zero) resistance, release the button it should be Infinate resistance..  do a check now before you clean it again, and then after... if the cleaning helped, you will see the result.

The starter button is not rocket science. Like MOB said, it's really just a spring with two contacts on either end. The metal is shiny and bright now. The guide I followed said the spring tapered a little and to put the larger flare end on the hat contact in the switch part. Maybe they got it backwards? I tried the spring several times installed both ways and it made no difference. The spring end fit over the hat contact regardless of which end you used. I get 12v at the contact before the switch and 10.5v at the contact after the switch.

I'm not sure that I follow all of the ohm reading thing that MOB told me. He says to unplug the button harness. Where? What harness? There is a single connector in the switch housing that has a black/red stripe (or orange or purple). That provides 12v to the switch when the key is turned on. If I check resistance of the two starter button contacts with that wire off, I do get zero on the meter when I press the button. When I let up it gives me a OL signal (out of limit I think). That's what I get if I touch the two probes together too, so I guess that's an infinite reading?

I've had this starter button apart and back together a dozen times now. I don't understand why it has low voltage. I'm about ready to admit defeat and buy a waterproof momentary switch to use instead.
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Offline Bud

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Re: dreaded click, but starter won't spin
« Reply #30 on: May 25, 2019, 02:44:23 pm »
Looks like it plugs into the main harness somewhere.  He's a clip from the parts fiche.  You might want to add some info about your bike in your signature line of your profile, or mention it in the beginning of each thread so we know what year it is.  Some things are different between first and second generation.
« Last Edit: May 25, 2019, 02:56:36 pm by Bud »
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Re: dreaded click, but starter won't spin
« Reply #31 on: May 25, 2019, 03:04:05 pm »
You've done the starter switch to the point it's as clean as it can be.
Resistance somewhere else might be causing the voltage drop.

I read back thru the posts and don't see that you isolated other concerns...
Have you tested/jumped the starter solenoid to see if it's working correctly?
Also, earlier you mentioned the side stand and clutch switch.
Have you jumped those to confirm they are working?

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Re: dreaded click, but starter won't spin
« Reply #32 on: May 25, 2019, 03:47:26 pm »
You've done the starter switch to the point it's as clean as it can be.
Resistance somewhere else might be causing the voltage drop.

I read back thru the posts and don't see that you isolated other concerns...
Have you tested/jumped the starter solenoid to see if it's working correctly?
Also, earlier you mentioned the side stand and clutch switch.
Have you jumped those to confirm they are working?

Ride safe, Ted

All of the above.
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Offline batboy

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Re: dreaded click, but starter won't spin
« Reply #33 on: May 25, 2019, 05:00:37 pm »
My bike is a 1988 Kawasaki Concours 1000.

Ok, I appreciate those that are trying to help, but when you say to test the clutch switch for example, what exactly am I supposed to do? Aren't the sidestand and clutch switches in a different circuit? The more I look at it the schematics, the more confused I get. How does something else like the neutral safety switch cause low voltage in the starter button switch?

The starter solenoid was jumped across the two main terminals proving the starter works. But, I guess that don't really prove the solenoid actually works. I have never got a full 12v at the Y/R wire at the solenoid. I figured once I get full voltage, it should work. If not, then I'll try replacing the solenoid.

I have tried pulling the clutch handle in several times while pressing the start button, but that has not helped. Both the clutch switch and sidestand switch have three connections. How do I jumper those? The schematics for the sidestand switch show a wire going out that just ends. Where does that wire go?

Everything worked fine when I parked this bike last November. So, that's another thing I don't understand. Parked in a shed with a cover over the bike. This is frustrating.

Ok, the sidestand switch button seems a little sticky when I push it in and pull it out manually. I put a Soupy's shorty kickstand on last fall, so that will be the next thing I look at. Guess I'll remove it so I can look at it on the bench easier. If there is any doubt, I want to bypass this switch. I don't need a stinking nanny to tell me if I have the kickstand down or not.
« Last Edit: May 25, 2019, 05:40:58 pm by batboy »
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Re: dreaded click, but starter won't spin
« Reply #34 on: May 25, 2019, 05:35:47 pm »
just take that sidestand switch off, check with a volt meter, and hose it down with wd amd move it around and click it to clear it out.

so, are you saying it still wont start now, correct? trying to keep up here.

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Re: dreaded click, but starter won't spin
« Reply #35 on: May 25, 2019, 05:43:22 pm »
I am not sure the problem is not the start switch. Just offering idea's to isolate the problem.
Step 1 is confirm the starter solenoid is working.
Step 2 is test the other switches.

The switches complete a circuit to ground.
You bypass the switches by unplugging the wires at the switch and grounding one of the wires.
   Sorry don't have much time right now to go into detail of which wire to ground.
         Others can give you that info...

Several things have indicated that the side stand switch might be a problem. {last worked on/sticky}
   Stop and flush out the side stand switch thoroughly with WD-40 while exercising it.
    If that doesn't work, unplug the wires from the side stand switch and touch them together {to complete the circuit to ground} while trying to start..

How does something else like the neutral safety switch cause low voltage in the starter button switch?
If you have a poor ground, you have resistance...
If resistance goes up, voltage comes down..

Thinking about that. Have you checked voltage after the battery is good "while" trying to start?
  ie; At the starter solenoid..
May just have a bad ground wire at the battery.

Ride safe, Ted
« Last Edit: May 25, 2019, 06:00:12 pm by connie_rider »
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Offline batboy

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Re: dreaded click, but starter won't spin
« Reply #36 on: May 25, 2019, 05:48:28 pm »
Still won't start. The voltage coming out of the starter button switch is too low to activate the solenoid.

Some folks think I should check the other starter safety switches (neutral, sidestand, clutch). I thought checking the kickstand switch was a good idea because I replaced the kickstand last fall (with a shorter after-market version).
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Re: dreaded click, but starter won't spin
« Reply #37 on: May 25, 2019, 05:54:30 pm »
My buddies bike had a starting issue and we narrowed to 1 of the 2 safety switches. There is the kick stand switch and the clutch switch. We have to push out his clutch switch in order to start his bike. (it will be fixed this year) also if your kickstand switch is open it won't let the bike turn over. That loop must be closed. (not sure if you checked that so I'm just suggesting)

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Re: dreaded click, but starter won't spin
« Reply #38 on: May 25, 2019, 06:53:04 pm »
I sprayed the clutch switch and kickstand switch with PB Blaster and then WD-40. The clutch switch pin moved in and out ok even before getting sprayed and even better afterwards. The kickstand switch was stiff and semi-stuck until the penetrating oil broke through the rust. Now the pin moves in and out smoothly  again. The wires are in a small harness and go up into a bigger harness. I had hoped I could find a connector to jumper. How in the world would you check resistance with a meter when you can't even get to the wires? You'd have to open up the harness I guess.

Where is the neutral safety switch? I'll look at it and then get everything back together to see if that helped or hindered (Had to remove the left side muffler can to get to the kickstand switch).
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Offline MAN OF BLUES

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Re: dreaded click, but starter won't spin
« Reply #39 on: May 25, 2019, 06:54:21 pm »
for "testing purposes", to cross off the clutch switch/starter interrupt, and ALSO the side stand switch, follow the small harness wires from both switches back away from each switch... you will find a "connector" on each, that ties them into the bikes harnesses...

Edit;  sorry for misleading info on the clutch switch/starter interrupt, it plugs into the bike harness right at the switch itself, so disconnect at the switch...

Unplug the connectors on both devices... make a pair of "jumper wires" out of a paperclip, or solid wire bent into a "U" shape...
Plug the ends of the "U" into the connector on the "bike side" of the disconnected harness', jumpering the 2 wires that are present there, at each connector....DO THIS WITH THE IGNITION OFF, and in neutral... then attempt to start the bike...  there are only 2 wires on each connector that matter or are present on the "bike side" harness.
« Last Edit: May 25, 2019, 07:09:29 pm by MAN OF BLUES »

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Re: dreaded click, but starter won't spin
« Reply #40 on: May 25, 2019, 07:13:43 pm »
It would seem to me that there would be no click if the safety switches are the issue. At least that's how I remember it. But I am old and feeble minded.

Has 12 volts been put to the starter solenoid yellow/red wire at the solenoid terminal, directly from the battery to check the solenoid and to see what happens? A jumper wire would be required. You do not have to remove that yel/red wire. Quick and easy to check and will rule in or out the solenoid.

Electrics can be fun. Just be glad that it is not intermittent. That would add a whole new layer of difficulty to the issue.

Good luck.  :beerchug:
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Re: dreaded click, but starter won't spin
« Reply #41 on: May 25, 2019, 07:48:06 pm »
Now that's an excellent question. I had not tried that yet, because I wanted to check for hydrolock before cranking the starter. Now that the spark plugs are out, that should be tested. I went out and laid a screwdriver across the two large terminals on the solenoid. After a spark or two, the starter cranked and spun the engine over. So, the starter motor definitely works and new battery does spin the starter. I'm back to the starter button. Here I go to clean it again.
He said he jumped across the terminals on the solenoid and it spun the engine.
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Offline batboy

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Re: dreaded click, but starter won't spin
« Reply #42 on: May 25, 2019, 08:11:45 pm »
When I turn the kill switch to the off position, there is no click. Makes sense if one of the safety switches is activated, then there would be no click. However,  regardless which position the kickstand switch is in, I get a click.

SteveJ, just for you I decided to jumper the solenoid just to make sure it worked. Apparently it don't. I can't get it to turn over the starter at all unless I jump across the solenoid terminals. Would a bad solenoid cause the low switch voltage? The starter button output wire does connect via the Y/R wire to the solenoid. Interesting, think I'll get me a working solenoid before I do too much more testing and yanking out of what little bit of hair I have left.

Bud, jumping across the solenoid terminals was to just check the starter motor and maybe the battery. This was the first time I jumper a wire from the battery to the solenoid Y/R wire (J-box connector #13).
« Last Edit: May 25, 2019, 08:19:14 pm by batboy »
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Re: dreaded click, but starter won't spin
« Reply #43 on: May 25, 2019, 08:19:02 pm »
did you jump 12v to the yellow wire, not across the big terminals? if you havent, do that. if you have, i apologize if i missed it.

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Re: dreaded click, but starter won't spin
« Reply #44 on: May 25, 2019, 08:21:33 pm »
I just did that as per SteveJ's suggestion. It appears the solenoid is not working. It clicks, but that's it.

EDIT: I see  that SteveJ said the same thing earlier too, but I overlooked it. Too soon to say if that solves the entire problem, but it sure seems like having a working solenoid during troubleshooting is a good thing.

P.S. Where to get a solenoid. I can order one from Amazon (it'll take a couple of days), or does O'Reilly or Autozone have this part where I can get it locally today)?
« Last Edit: May 25, 2019, 08:31:02 pm by batboy »
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Offline SteveJ.

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Re: dreaded click, but starter won't spin
« Reply #45 on: May 26, 2019, 01:29:54 am »
I just did that as per SteveJ's suggestion. It appears the solenoid is not working. It clicks, but that's it.

EDIT: I see  that SteveJ said the same thing earlier too, but I overlooked it. Too soon to say if that solves the entire problem, but it sure seems like having a working solenoid during troubleshooting is a good thing.

P.S. Where to get a solenoid. I can order one from Amazon (it'll take a couple of days), or does O'Reilly or Autozone have this part where I can get it locally today)?

Something tells me that the lower voltages on the starter switch may have to do with the solenoid drawing a lot of current trying to work, thus dropping the voltage. I'm thinking when you pop that new solenoid in and hit the starter button, it will be time to enjoy a really good(insert favorite adult beverage here).

A lot of different solenoids will work, but will have to be cobbled in. O'reilly's and such will have solenoids to cobble in. If Amazon has the right part, I would go for it. And take a day or two off from working on it while waiting for it. It's been a challenge.

BTW, sitting for the off season did in your solenoid, but it was likely on it's way out.
« Last Edit: May 26, 2019, 01:35:18 am by SteveJ. »
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Re: dreaded click, but starter won't spin
« Reply #46 on: May 26, 2019, 01:33:21 am »
^ this.

I had a fan relay do the EXACT SAME THING on a vintage car i have , clicked, showed voltage, albeit low, but under load no cigar. get a new relay.


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Re: dreaded click, but starter won't spin
« Reply #47 on: May 26, 2019, 01:40:25 am »
I'm out.
 :truce:
 good luck.

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Re: dreaded click, but starter won't spin
« Reply #48 on: May 26, 2019, 02:48:33 am »
Feels like I need to have my handyman card revoked. I've never been good at electrical system troubleshooting. New solenoid part will be here on Wednesday. Hope it solves the problem.

Thanks to MOB, I found the wire connector on the clutch. With my newly acquired resistance testing skills, I determined the clutch switch is working properly.

I still don't know where the neutral safety switch is, but I hear a click if the starter button is pushed when the neutral light is on, but nothing when the light is off (in gear) unless I pull the clutch lever.

So, all the safety switches appear to be operational. The kickstand switch pin was sticking, but it's cleaned up and working fine now. The rubber boot was ripped which let moisture in, so I tried to seal it back up with black RTV.
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Offline Bob_C_CT

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Re: dreaded click, but starter won't spin
« Reply #49 on: May 26, 2019, 09:29:14 am »
The neutral indicator switch is buried behind the left foot peg mount. It is a single wire connection to ground when in neutral. So if your neutral light is on in neutral and off in gear then your switch is working and the wire isn't grounding out on something else.
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