Author Topic: Fork Air and Oil Leak After Towing  (Read 779 times)

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Offline Wantabeach

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Fork Air and Oil Leak After Towing
« on: November 21, 2018, 04:56:09 pm »
After towing my son's bike, oil is showing on top of the left fork tube at the upper brace point / triple tree.  Its a 1992 so I tested the PSI and there was none and it won't hold any either.  I wrapped the tow strap around the forks but did not compress the straps enough and had to tighten them up a few times during the trip.  I did not have a ratchet straps.  The crossover air tube seems to be in tack and I don't see any other visible signs of damage.  I wipe it off last night and check it again this morning only to find a bit more oil. 

Where could the oil be coming from? 

Could the air leak be coming from a damaged crossover tube? 

What could be damaged? 

Thanks
Paul

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Re: Fork Air and Oil Leak After Towing
« Reply #1 on: November 21, 2018, 07:49:07 pm »
The balance tube has seals (O-rings) in it. Chances are one of these has split.
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Re: Fork Air and Oil Leak After Towing
« Reply #2 on: November 21, 2018, 11:09:59 pm »
After towing my son's bike, oil is showing on top of the left fork tube at the upper brace point / triple tree.  Its a 1992 so I tested the PSI and there was none and it won't hold any either.  I wrapped the tow strap around the forks but did not compress the straps enough and had to tighten them up a few times during the trip.  I did not have a ratchet straps.  The crossover air tube seems to be in tack and I don't see any other visible signs of damage.  I wipe it off last night and check it again this morning only to find a bit more oil. 

Where could the oil be coming from? 

Could the air leak be coming from a damaged crossover tube? 

What could be damaged? 

Thanks
Paul

I truthfully can't see the airtube junction in the picture, i.e., is it in place... I see the clamp that holds it "down", and what looks like the cross over tube, so with that said, you may have damaged the tube with the strap, or it may be displaced (have the fork tubes been either raised, or lowered physically in the triple trees?), and the seal rings are not actually on either side of the hole in the fork as positioned...

anyways, the rings are
92055-1106   RING-O,FORK AIR TUBE   4 req'd

seems like the perfect time to buy some Progressive replacement springs for it, from Murph's, and do away with the air altogether... I've done it to both my C10's, and without using air, the fork seals will last a long time... the o-rings and tube still are used, but holding in the oil is easier than keeping 7 psi of air in there for sure.



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Offline Wantabeach

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Re: Fork Air and Oil Leak After Towing
« Reply #3 on: November 22, 2018, 05:35:29 pm »
The balance tube has seals (O-rings) in it. Chances are one of these has split.

O-rings sound like the most likely culprit.

Thanks

Offline Wantabeach

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Re: Fork Air and Oil Leak After Towing
« Reply #4 on: November 22, 2018, 05:45:33 pm »
After towing my son's bike, oil is showing on top of the left fork tube at the upper brace point / triple tree.  Its a 1992 so I tested the PSI and there was none and it won't hold any either.  I wrapped the tow strap around the forks but did not compress the straps enough and had to tighten them up a few times during the trip.  I did not have a ratchet straps.  The crossover air tube seems to be in tack and I don't see any other visible signs of damage.  I wipe it off last night and check it again this morning only to find a bit more oil. 

Where could the oil be coming from? 

Could the air leak be coming from a damaged crossover tube? 

What could be damaged? 

Thanks
Paul

I truthfully can't see the airtube junction in the picture, i.e., is it in place... I see the clamp that holds it "down", and what looks like the cross over tube, so with that said, you may have damaged the tube with the strap, or it may be displaced (have the fork tubes been either raised, or lowered physically in the triple trees?), and the seal rings are not actually on either side of the hole in the fork as positioned...

anyways, the rings are
92055-1106   RING-O,FORK AIR TUBE   4 req'd

seems like the perfect time to buy some Progressive replacement springs for it, from Murph's, and do away with the air altogether... I've done it to both my C10's, and without using air, the fork seals will last a long time... the o-rings and tube still are used, but holding in the oil is easier than keeping 7 psi of air in there for sure.

Interesting. So is the oil level above the balance tube clamp?  How does it pass air thru then?  Where are the o-rings?  In the sleeve below the clamp?  The tube looks fine. I’ll post a few most pics

All the best
Paul

Offline Wantabeach

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Re: Fork Air and Oil Leak After Towing
« Reply #5 on: November 22, 2018, 05:58:58 pm »

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Re: Fork Air and Oil Leak After Towing
« Reply #6 on: November 22, 2018, 07:48:24 pm »
Here are some more pics.

https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1oS5AB2yPiql4wMSFJOHeIysUOW31DZKF

hmmmmmmmm...... :-X

something isn't right with that crossover....
it must have been damaged by a p/o, and an attempted repair was done, by drilling and tapping an NPT threaded hole in the side, and using some combination of tubing (looks like Tygon) and a barbed fitting, to create the crossover....

The OEM condition of this crossover is constructed with a small diameter steel tube, brazed into the collar, at both ends... that ain't what you have....

click on the picture I posted in my response #2 above, you will see what it should look like..

so I assume when the repair was done, the tapped hole is larger in diameter, than the spacing between the O-rings, and their respective internal grooves in the collar, breaking into one or both of the grooves, and preventing the O ring(s) from effectively sealing.
Also, during recent discussions about oil levels in pre '94 and '94 up and the manner they are to be measured, it is found that if filled using a post '94 measurement regimen, there is oil level above the crossover holes, when if done by the instruction for a pre '94, and followed, the level sits below the crossover in static mode of the fork, and has little chance to be exposed to excessive oil even when the fork is compressed during riding... Only when FULLY compressed by clamping down the maximum travel of the fork is it close to having oil there..
So, it's a combination of a poor repair of a damaged crossover tube, and also over filling of the forks as far as oil level goes, and then having the forks clamped down at or close to max compression, it's a leaker.

2 options:
obtain a crossover tube that is in good shape, and un modified, and install it with new o rings, and correctly fill the fork tubes to the proper level.

Try to find one on ebay,
https://www.ebay.com/i/131877944203?chn=ps
or ask around here, someone has one for sure, look up "The Wizard" on the for sale parts section for C10's, he'll have one... and prolly send you one for $10...
the Kaw price is High
51044-1083
TUBE-ASSY,FORK,AIR $104.60

or
replace the springs with the Progressive Product from Murph's, and during the process before filling the forks but with the forks in place and the crossover removed, make a rubber "strip" about 1/2" wide, and long enough to wrap around the tube over the hole in the fork tube, and use a radiator clamp tightened over that to create a well sealed "patch", covering and sealing the hole on each tube.
This does work fine, and will last forever, I've done this before when switching to Progressive Springs, just so I didn't have to deal with removing the crossover tube again in future.
The spring upgrade also removes the need for adding air to the forks, and is an improvement over the OEM system, It's not the "high end Big $$$" suspension upgrade some folks do, but consider the age of the bike, and it makes the springs only thing worth the time and effort.

hope this helps.
« Last Edit: November 22, 2018, 08:10:03 pm by MAN OF BLUES »

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Offline JPD

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Re: Fork Air and Oil Leak After Towing
« Reply #7 on: November 23, 2018, 02:36:47 pm »
That's a poor repair at best. Along with all the things MOB said, the pressure in the forks goes way up during compression. The oil will slouch around in there with no clamps on the crossover hose it is bound to leak.
As you found out it doesn't seal well enough to even hold static pressure. Air it up and leak check it with dish soap and water. It may help you decide which repair, 1 or 2 you want to do. A good  repair is needed for the shocks to work correctly and not leak.

Offline Wantabeach

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Re: Fork Air and Oil Leak After Towing
« Reply #8 on: November 23, 2018, 04:06:34 pm »
That's a poor repair at best. Along with all the things MOB said, the pressure in the forks goes way up during compression. The oil will slouch around in there with no clamps on the crossover hose it is bound to leak.
As you found out it doesn't seal well enough to even hold static pressure. Air it up and leak check it with dish soap and water. It may help you decide which repair, 1 or 2 you want to do. A good  repair is needed for the shocks to work correctly and not leak.

I will try the leak test. That said, i could not even build up a a pound of pressure the other day whereas before they held 7 psi pretty well. Is there supposed to be clamps on the crossover tube?  It’s leaking oil standing still so makes me think they are overfilled unless the oil normally is supposed to be that high.

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Re: Fork Air and Oil Leak After Towing
« Reply #9 on: November 23, 2018, 04:47:12 pm »

I will try the leak test. That said, i could not even build up a a pound of pressure the other day whereas before they held 7 psi pretty well. Is there supposed to be clamps on the crossover tube? It’s leaking oil standing still so makes me think they are overfilled unless the oil normally is supposed to be that high.

Did you read MOB's earlier post?
  Your crossover is a repair. It is NOT a standard crossover.
              That is why it is leaking...
That said, there is a chance 2 clamps will stop the leak, but it would be better to replace or block the crossover.

Ride safe, Ted
« Last Edit: November 23, 2018, 04:53:21 pm by connie_rider »
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Offline JPD

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Re: Fork Air and Oil Leak After Towing
« Reply #10 on: November 23, 2018, 05:45:57 pm »
  Your crossover is a repair. It is NOT a standard crossover.
              That is why it is leaking

That was my point also. The leak check is just to find out how bad it is and how you want to fix it.

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Re: Fork Air and Oil Leak After Towing
« Reply #11 on: November 25, 2018, 05:23:06 am »

I will try the leak test. That said, i could not even build up a a pound of pressure the other day whereas before they held 7 psi pretty well. Is there supposed to be clamps on the crossover tube? It’s leaking oil standing still so makes me think they are overfilled unless the oil normally is supposed to be that high.

Did you read MOB's earlier post?
  Your crossover is a repair. It is NOT a standard crossover.
              That is why it is leaking...
That said, there is a chance 2 clamps will stop the leak, but it would be better to replace or block the crossover.

Ride safe, Ted

I did read MOB but did not understand everything he said at first. I do now and I did the leak test. It’s actually blowing bubbles out of the top / rear part of the collar. I gues the tow strap jostled things enough to cause it to leak air and oil now. We are considering the repair options noted.

You guys are the best.
Thank you
Paul
« Last Edit: November 25, 2018, 05:28:21 am by Wantabeach »

Offline Wantabeach

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Re: Fork Air and Oil Leak After Towing
« Reply #12 on: November 25, 2018, 05:25:20 am »
Here are some more pics.

https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1oS5AB2yPiql4wMSFJOHeIysUOW31DZKF

hmmmmmmmm...... :-X

something isn't right with that crossover....
it must have been damaged by a p/o, and an attempted repair was done, by drilling and tapping an NPT threaded hole in the side, and using some combination of tubing (looks like Tygon) and a barbed fitting, to create the crossover....

The OEM condition of this crossover is constructed with a small diameter steel tube, brazed into the collar, at both ends... that ain't what you have....

click on the picture I posted in my response #2 above, you will see what it should look like..

so I assume when the repair was done, the tapped hole is larger in diameter, than the spacing between the O-rings, and their respective internal grooves in the collar, breaking into one or both of the grooves, and preventing the O ring(s) from effectively sealing.
Also, during recent discussions about oil levels in pre '94 and '94 up and the manner they are to be measured, it is found that if filled using a post '94 measurement regimen, there is oil level above the crossover holes, when if done by the instruction for a pre '94, and followed, the level sits below the crossover in static mode of the fork, and has little chance to be exposed to excessive oil even when the fork is compressed during riding... Only when FULLY compressed by clamping down the maximum travel of the fork is it close to having oil there..
So, it's a combination of a poor repair of a damaged crossover tube, and also over filling of the forks as far as oil level goes, and then having the forks clamped down at or close to max compression, it's a leaker.

2 options:
obtain a crossover tube that is in good shape, and un modified, and install it with new o rings, and correctly fill the fork tubes to the proper level.

Try to find one on ebay,
https://www.ebay.com/i/131877944203?chn=ps
or ask around here, someone has one for sure, look up "The Wizard" on the for sale parts section for C10's, he'll have one... and prolly send you one for $10...
the Kaw price is High
51044-1083
TUBE-ASSY,FORK,AIR $104.60

or
replace the springs with the Progressive Product from Murph's, and during the process before filling the forks but with the forks in place and the crossover removed, make a rubber "strip" about 1/2" wide, and long enough to wrap around the tube over the hole in the fork tube, and use a radiator clamp tightened over that to create a well sealed "patch", covering and sealing the hole on each tube.
This does work fine, and will last forever, I've done this before when switching to Progressive Springs, just so I didn't have to deal with removing the crossover tube again in future.
The spring upgrade also removes the need for adding air to the forks, and is an improvement over the OEM system, It's not the "high end Big $$$" suspension upgrade some folks do, but consider the age of the bike, and it makes the springs only thing worth the time and effort.

hope this helps.

Many thanks MOB. Your advise has been terrific!

Offline Wantabeach

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Re: Fork Air and Oil Leak After Towing
« Reply #13 on: January 11, 2019, 05:15:40 pm »
Here are some more pics.

https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1oS5AB2yPiql4wMSFJOHeIysUOW31DZKF

hmmmmmmmm...... :-X

something isn't right with that crossover....
it must have been damaged by a p/o, and an attempted repair was done, by drilling and tapping an NPT threaded hole in the side, and using some combination of tubing (looks like Tygon) and a barbed fitting, to create the crossover....

The OEM condition of this crossover is constructed with a small diameter steel tube, brazed into the collar, at both ends... that ain't what you have....

click on the picture I posted in my response #2 above, you will see what it should look like..

so I assume when the repair was done, the tapped hole is larger in diameter, than the spacing between the O-rings, and their respective internal grooves in the collar, breaking into one or both of the grooves, and preventing the O ring(s) from effectively sealing.
Also, during recent discussions about oil levels in pre '94 and '94 up and the manner they are to be measured, it is found that if filled using a post '94 measurement regimen, there is oil level above the crossover holes, when if done by the instruction for a pre '94, and followed, the level sits below the crossover in static mode of the fork, and has little chance to be exposed to excessive oil even when the fork is compressed during riding... Only when FULLY compressed by clamping down the maximum travel of the fork is it close to having oil there..
So, it's a combination of a poor repair of a damaged crossover tube, and also over filling of the forks as far as oil level goes, and then having the forks clamped down at or close to max compression, it's a leaker.

2 options:
obtain a crossover tube that is in good shape, and un modified, and install it with new o rings, and correctly fill the fork tubes to the proper level.

Try to find one on ebay,
https://www.ebay.com/i/131877944203?chn=ps
or ask around here, someone has one for sure, look up "The Wizard" on the for sale parts section for C10's, he'll have one... and prolly send you one for $10...
the Kaw price is High
51044-1083
TUBE-ASSY,FORK,AIR $104.60

or
replace the springs with the Progressive Product from Murph's, and during the process before filling the forks but with the forks in place and the crossover removed, make a rubber "strip" about 1/2" wide, and long enough to wrap around the tube over the hole in the fork tube, and use a radiator clamp tightened over that to create a well sealed "patch", covering and sealing the hole on each tube.
This does work fine, and will last forever, I've done this before when switching to Progressive Springs, just so I didn't have to deal with removing the crossover tube again in future.
The spring upgrade also removes the need for adding air to the forks, and is an improvement over the OEM system, It's not the "high end Big $$$" suspension upgrade some folks do, but consider the age of the bike, and it makes the springs only thing worth the time and effort.

hope this helps.

We found a good crossover tube but Kawasaki does not make the seals anymore.  May need to patch holes and upgrade springs. 


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Re: Fork Air and Oil Leak After Towing
« Reply #14 on: January 11, 2019, 06:23:55 pm »
 :-[ :truce:

bummer,
I had to go and look, and see they are not available from my common source, which is Ron Ayers...
p/n  92055-1106 used on Voyager and pre 94 Concours...

meantime, read this;

http://forum.cog-online.org/tiressuspension-c10/92055-1106-ring-o-fork-air-tube/

I did look on e-bay, again, and find a few... but for the $$, might as well ditch the crossover, and simply do springs... same cost, no hassle ever again....

I also cross referenced same age Ninja 1000 parts, as those forks IIRC, are the same "size", (I have a set of them, they have the anti dive feature external valve setup... never installed them as I would have had to do major refurb to insure they worked...)

anyway, I couldn't find those o rings either p/n 92055-1102

I did however find a complete crossover pipe assy, new old stock, and the rings are included in that assembly... looked nice;
here:
https://www.ebay.com/p/Kawasaki-Zx1000-Air-Fork-Balance-Tube-1986-Ninja-1000r/1923743569?iid=121840419282&chn=ps

might as well jump on it....if you care to. Same price as 4 rings, and as it's NEW not used, the crossover ends up free...

good luck....grab it fast... sometimes people see these posts and buy stuff up to hoard, and re sell later at extreme profits. Just tossing that out.

there was also this one, used, a bit crusty, but looks fully functional, and it has rings also, and they look ok...

https://www.ebay.com/itm/KAWASAKI-ZX1000-AIR-FORK-BALANCE-TUBE-51044-1073-ZX-1000-NINJA-1986-86-87-lm-/312270782452?_trksid=p2349526.m4383.l4275.c10#viTabs_0

I would appreciate your old o rings tho, if yo do buy springs, so I can cross reference them for future people looking for them... shoot me a note via p/m, and I'll give you my mail address...

let me look a bit, and see if I have any in a box... if the seals were not compromised (cut/split/damaged) they may still work in the new crossover tube, as the crossover tube was the original issue, as I noted when someone tapped it for a pipe fitting, they drilled an over sized hole, which may have overlapped into the seal's groove,(look at the photos of the ebay ones I noted, you will see what I mean about the hole size)... and that hole provided the path to the groove the o-ring seals in, so the seals may be ok, just the crossover tube collars are the issue... disassemble it and look after carefully removing the rings... and try them in the new crossover tube...
I may be able to find a suitable common ring for replacement if I have one to measure, so let me check a bit.
Worst case ( which is not really worse, as it IS an improvement,) is to simply purchase the Progressive springs from Murph's, and install them,and do away with the crossover... and to a wrap of rubber strip over the existing hole in each fork tube, and install a hose clamp to provide compression to keep the hole sealed.
« Last Edit: January 11, 2019, 08:13:32 pm by MAN OF BLUES »

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Re: Fork Air and Oil Leak After Towing
« Reply #15 on: January 13, 2019, 01:45:01 pm »
Possible option for these o-rings.  My local Kaw dealer has a fiche system to order parts online.  Perhaps yours does too.

Part No: 92055-1106 is NOT shown as 'unavailable' or out of stock.  They are over $4 each but it would be worth a call to your dealer to see if they are really available.

When i order parts like this, they are shipped to the dealership for me to pickup, with no shipping costs to buyer, sales tax applies.  Sometimes this is cheaper for low cost parts because standard shipping is waived unlike the other online sites selling OEM parts.
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Re: Fork Air and Oil Leak After Towing
« Reply #16 on: January 13, 2019, 11:18:01 pm »
Possible option for these o-rings.  My local Kaw dealer has a fiche system to order parts online.  Perhaps yours does too.

Part No: 92055-1106 is NOT shown as 'unavailable' or out of stock.  They are over $4 each but it would be worth a call to your dealer to see if they are really available.

When i order parts like this, they are shipped to the dealership for me to pickup, with no shipping costs to buyer, sales tax applies.  Sometimes this is cheaper for low cost parts because standard shipping is waived unlike the other online sites selling OEM parts.

sorry Stan, but don't you think I went thru the Kaw Fiche prior to this?
also KPW, and Ron Ayers plugging in the same part number...

unless you walked into your dealer, and had them do a search, which will show the same as I found, I don't think you are correct....


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Offline connieklr

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Re: Fork Air and Oil Leak After Towing
« Reply #17 on: January 14, 2019, 11:24:46 am »
If push came to shove and you really wanted a balancing connection between the tubes, I'd enlarge the holes slightly, tap, and install miniature versions of these guys. Connect with stout, and clamped tubing. Else, install Progressives and block off the holes with the damaged crossover tube that had the tube cut and sealed.

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Offline connie_rider

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Re: Fork Air and Oil Leak After Towing
« Reply #18 on: January 14, 2019, 12:53:03 pm »
connieklr, he already has those on his crossover.
But, you may have hit on the right solution..

Wantabeach, I suspect the leak is at the tubing {wher it slides over the fitting}, not the fittings, nor the seals themselves.
If so, (and if you want to keep the crossover?); I would remove/reinstall the fittings, then replace the tubing with flexible rubber hose, and use clamp's to keep the hose sealed on the fittings..

Ride safe, Ted

Here are some more pics.

https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1oS5AB2yPiql4wMSFJOHeIysUOW31DZKF
« Last Edit: January 14, 2019, 07:45:25 pm by connie_rider »
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Re: Fork Air and Oil Leak After Towing
« Reply #19 on: January 14, 2019, 02:06:18 pm »
Hmm? Guess I missed the point and thought his crossover may of been damaged. Didn't know he'd installed the barb fittings.

Never mind - I'll shut up now and go back into hibernation.
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Re: Fork Air and Oil Leak After Towing
« Reply #20 on: January 14, 2019, 07:32:36 pm »
Hmm? Guess I missed the point and thought his crossover may of been damaged. Didn't know he'd installed the barb fittings.

Never mind - I'll shut up now and go back into hibernation.

 :)) :)) :))

his post #5, lead to my response #6,

I think what happened was easily rectified by a "new used part", but still the o-rings being discontinued has me grumbling about Kaw's non sympathetic manner of a simple o-ring size in the "part description" on the Fiche... like it is top secret or something... they did this a lot back then.... in later years tho, the ring dimensions actually were given on may of the different rings packaging...
The barb fitting was likely the culpret, and because of the space between the o-ring grooves in the collar, during the 'drill/tap' process it all went south. Coupled with the "OD/ID" on that ring, tightening that barb fitting probably pressed it against the fork tube also, creating some "gap-o-sis"... :rotflmao:

30 YEARS OF KAW.....Rich R. (the other one..)  COG 5977  JUSTAMEMBAHNOW
and if you are gonna call me names... it's MR. Analdweeb if you please...

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Re: Fork Air and Oil Leak After Towing
« Reply #21 on: January 14, 2019, 08:58:19 pm »
sorry Stan, but don't you think I went thru the Kaw Fiche prior to this?
also KPW, and Ron Ayers plugging in the same part number...

unless you walked into your dealer, and had them do a search, which will show the same as I found, I don't think you are correct....

I intended no offense and my post wasn't directed at you or your efforts at all.

Just trying to help the cause my friend, cause stuff like this could leave pre '94 C10's out in the cold.

I've come across many who don't know about the postage free thing for small orders, and when checking saw the oring part was on there.

For the record, I didn't say they had 'em - just that it might be worth checking, stating  . .

  • 'Possible option for these o-rings.'
  • 'it would be worth a call to your dealer to see if they are really available'

Would you rather I didn't give it a shot and assume all bases are already covered? 
« Last Edit: January 14, 2019, 09:05:29 pm by Stasch »
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