Author Topic: FREE POWER (you're gonna like this one!)  (Read 28899 times)

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Offline Steve in Sunny Fla

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FREE POWER (you're gonna like this one!)
« on: December 12, 2013, 07:52:13 pm »
  OK , not going into how I found this -but I think probably every c-10 is going to benefit from doing this mod. Best part, it takes minutes and almost no money. Got your attention yet  :-\

  The issue is a poor ground connection to the ignitor from voltage feedback when the bike is running. It appears to cause low spark energy.

 The fix - remove the tape from the wiring harness at the ignitor. The ground is BLACK / YELLOW STRIPE. On the ignitor connector side, leave about 4" of wire coming out of the connector, cut the blk/y and attach another wire, (I used a crimp connector) long enough to reach the battery ground.  Just put a piece of tape over the blk/y wire left  in the harness. I actually just taped the new wire into the harness, and ran it back to the battery.Tthere I attached a crimp on ring connector, and bolted it directly to the battery ground.

  On my bike, I had .31V in the ground line at the ignitor  before the new wire was installed, and .007v afterwards.  The result IMO was a noticeable increase in throttle response. While electrical is my weak point, I have enough knowledge to know low voltage produces poor spark. My feeling here is that the better ground allows the ignitor to send a better signal to the coils, and the result is better spark energy. Or not. Either way, the bike likes it, and to me a ground wire should be just that, and ours are only "sorta" grounded...  :-[

  If anyone does this simple mod, please post up and let's here your experience. Does the bike start or idle better? throttle more responsive? does it feel smoother accelerating? Inquiring mind want to know   ;)   Steve
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Offline VTconnie

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Re: FREE POWER (you're gonna like this one!)
« Reply #1 on: December 12, 2013, 08:21:32 pm »
This sounds very similar to the Coil Relay Mod developed for my 1980 Honda Cb900C. In essence, power is lost through the [ancient] ignition harness, resulting in up to a 1 volt drop at the coils. This causes sputtering/poor spark, and cutting out at High-rpms. A long wire wire is run directly from the positive battery terminal to a 30 Amp relay, and then to the coils. The original power for the coils, activated with the key, powers the relay.
I did this mod and it fixed all of my Honda's ignition woes.


Great tip, thanks Steve!  :beerchug:
<--2003 Concours C-10 "Conifer", -AKA- The Cruise Missile
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Offline dream4m5

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Re: FREE POWER (you're gonna like this one!)
« Reply #2 on: December 12, 2013, 08:45:00 pm »
This is mighty interesting! I wonder how many bikes are effected by this poor grounding.

Offline Max

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Re: FREE POWER (you're gonna like this one!)
« Reply #3 on: December 12, 2013, 09:31:35 pm »
Thanks Steve. I'll try it when it warms up next week and report back.
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Offline Dave Scott

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Re: FREE POWER (you're gonna like this one!)
« Reply #4 on: December 12, 2013, 09:34:45 pm »
bike down right now pending new shoes.  while it's apart, I'll give it a try.

Offline Mcfly

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Re: FREE POWER (you're gonna like this one!)
« Reply #5 on: December 12, 2013, 09:44:40 pm »
I took a quick look at the ignition wiring diagram, and the igniter does (eventually) ground out
to the battery/engine... by doing Steve's Mod, you are in effect isolating the ground from
a shared ground to the Side Stand Switch, the Lockout Switch, a chassis ground
and a connector that is in line before the Bk/Y wire gets to the actual battery/engine ground.

Sounds like the Connie could use a ground wire kit.....  :-)


I'll give it a shot over the weekend and tell you what the butt dyno registers.  Thanks Steve!


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Offline connie_rider

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Re: FREE POWER (you're gonna like this one!)
« Reply #6 on: December 12, 2013, 09:51:11 pm »
"YES"!!!    :motonoises:
Hmmmm, me-thinks you might have found the reason that some (stock) Connies run "noticibly" better than others...

Ride safe, Ted
« Last Edit: December 12, 2013, 09:55:06 pm by connie_rider »
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Offline fred-houston

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Re: FREE POWER (you're gonna like this one!)
« Reply #7 on: December 12, 2013, 10:12:25 pm »
Some of us are not as smart as Steve, so I had to go figure out where the igniter was.

I think I found gold.  Here are some pictures for my fellow wanttobe home mechanics.

Additional Note:  Steve brought up a good point in a later post.  I am not pointing at the wire that needs to be cut, or the location where it needs to be cut.  I was holding back the plastic cover to get a picture of the wires.



« Last Edit: December 12, 2013, 10:26:22 pm by fred-houston »
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Offline Buzzard

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Re: FREE POWER (you're gonna like this one!)
« Reply #8 on: December 12, 2013, 10:16:16 pm »
Steve,
 Help me (us) with this mod. If you have any photo's to share we would certainly benefit a lot from seeing where these wire cuts & splices are done. Okay Fred-Houston, thanks for pic's!!!
I'm all in for FREE POWER!

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Offline Steve in Sunny Fla

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Re: FREE POWER (you're gonna like this one!)
« Reply #9 on: December 12, 2013, 10:19:25 pm »
Good pics Fred, just be sure to do the BLK / Y  (black wire with a yellow stripe) not the one you're pointing at  ;)  Steve


Buzz - I'm bad about just getting the job done, and not taking pics.  Maybe it'll find a way into a video - S
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Offline WillyP

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Re: FREE POWER (you're gonna like this one!)
« Reply #10 on: December 12, 2013, 10:27:22 pm »
In other words, don't get the black with yellow striped wire confused with the yellow wire that has a black stripe.  :))

Nice find Steve. But be careful with crimp connectors, they can deteriorate quickly if not installed correctly.
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pics

Offline Daytona_Mike

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Re: FREE POWER (you're gonna like this one!)
« Reply #11 on: December 12, 2013, 10:27:48 pm »
I just did mine. I checked the resistance with a meter before and after and I got a big improvement out of this mod and it only took me a few minutes.
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Offline donaldj

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Re: FREE POWER (you're gonna like this one!)
« Reply #12 on: December 12, 2013, 11:50:56 pm »
Thanks for the info and pictures! ;)
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Offline JDM

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Re: FREE POWER (you're gonna like this one!)
« Reply #13 on: December 12, 2013, 11:58:36 pm »
Good pics Fred, just be sure to do the BLK / Y  (black wire with a yellow stripe) not the one you're pointing at  ;)  Steve


Buzz - I'm bad about just getting the job done, and not taking pics.  Maybe it'll find a way into a video - S

Steve, are you running stick coils?

Offline Steve in Sunny Fla

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Re: FREE POWER (you're gonna like this one!)
« Reply #14 on: December 13, 2013, 12:18:17 am »

Steve, are you running stick coils?

Currently yes, but I put them on just prior to finding this ground issue. I tried to run them in the past but had hot starting issues, so I had returned to stock coils. I suspect this grounding issue may have been at the heart of the hot start issue. However I found this ground issue first on another bike with stock coils. I ran the direct ground wire and there was a noticeable improvement in starting, idle and throttle response, so I then went and checked my bike, so this mod isn't just for bikes with stick coils.  I think anyone who takes a meter and checks resistance or voltage on the ignitor ground wire will find the ignitor is poorly grounded. Steve
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Offline Oldspeed

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Re: FREE POWER (you're gonna like this one!)
« Reply #15 on: December 13, 2013, 12:33:00 am »
  Great find Steve!   ......Considering voltage drop, ...Do you think an improvement can be found at the positive side ?  Does the Pos. feed directly to the coils ????     .........................Oldspeed
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Offline 2fast

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Re: FREE POWER (you're gonna like this one!)
« Reply #16 on: December 13, 2013, 12:41:53 am »
Cool man........this should be interesting. Will this be the three minute mod?????????
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Offline Daytona_Mike

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Re: FREE POWER (you're gonna like this one!)
« Reply #17 on: December 13, 2013, 02:24:36 am »
Ok, I have to say that this mod  really works.
 I waited until my bike was stone cold and right now it is very cold for Daytona.
I  pulled the enricher out and it started right up and then  I  turned the enricher  off  right away.
Normally it would stall out. Instead  the engine idled  at a  very low rpm AND I can turn the throttle. I could never do that before. It would never idle with the enricher off  that soon  and I could never give it gas this soon  without it stumbling.
Impressive.

« Last Edit: December 13, 2013, 02:27:38 am by Daytona_Mike »
Normally aspirated engines have perpetual turbo lag
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2008  C14 Silver Dammit Full AreaP- Flies are put back in SISF_Flash
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Offline tdbru

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Re: FREE POWER (you're gonna like this one!)
« Reply #18 on: December 13, 2013, 03:50:44 am »
looking at the wire harness, and the fuse capacity, K was scrimping on costs I suspect.  some of the wires seem mighty light for the fuse rating.  no matter, Steve's find will likely help a lot of us C10 owners.  thank you Steve.  right now it's below freezing in my garage so I'm not too inclined to work on the bike, but before spring rolls around and I dewinterize it, i'll add the extra ground.  it certainly can't hurt.  and i'll likely use at least #12 wire.  if your handy with a soldering iron, soldering the connections can help reduce the corrosion open circuits that sometimes occur with crimped connectors.  as I read this post, I thought it might not hurt to ground the ground return wires (add a splice and connectors) to the frame in multiple locations using stuff that bolts into the frame.  the risk there is to get good ground you must have metal to metal, and bare steel (frame) will rust if moisture gets to it.  so I wouldn't be scraping paint or anything, but usually the bolt heads are not painted, so slipping a connector under a bolt head of a bolt that mounts something into the frame should work fine. the coils are step up transformers with a ratio of approximately 2000.  so if your primary field is 1 volt low, your plugs will have about 2000 less volts at the plugs.  in other words, a small increase in the differential voltage  at the coils' inputs (voltage difference between the + and - terminal on the stock coils) has a big difference in voltage at the spark plug.  obvious if one thinks about it, but we rarely (I'm guilty) have time to stop and think things through these days.  again, thanks Steve for taking the time to really measure the ground level.
-Brian

Offline Kwaksam

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Re: FREE POWER (you're gonna like this one!)
« Reply #19 on: December 13, 2013, 07:11:49 am »
Makes electrical sense, not being a PITA, but does this not do away with the safety feature on the side stand cutout, ie if you add a permanent ground, does that not then allow you to drive away with the side stand down?, or am I reading it wrong?
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Offline Syntor

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Re: FREE POWER (you're gonna like this one!)
« Reply #20 on: December 13, 2013, 10:44:03 am »
Well spotted SISF. just the sort of fix my wallet can accommodate.

Ma Kaw was sparing in the amount of copper used in the C10.

Probably OK when the bikes new and all the connections/joiners are fresh and corrosion free, but as things age......

The actual instantaneous current through the igniter is probably quite peaky. ie it's on then its off. So the voltage drop Steve has measured may only be an average, and therefore the loss may potentially be quite a bit more than a multimeter would measure. Would need to do some testing with a CRO to really see whats happening.

Well spotted.

Offline Steve in Sunny Fla

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Re: FREE POWER (you're gonna like this one!)
« Reply #21 on: December 13, 2013, 11:45:30 am »
I also considered using the original ground wire that I cut as another point to bolt to the frame. For those considering this mod, you might just want to add that to the list.  Of course you could just connect into the accessory ground pigtail on the rear fender, but I still feel it's best to run a completely separate wire for the ignitor. Steve
« Last Edit: December 13, 2013, 11:50:31 am by Steve in Sunny Fla »
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Offline 2fast

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Re: FREE POWER (you're gonna like this one!)
« Reply #22 on: December 13, 2013, 12:41:31 pm »
Steve, is there a reason the Black/Yellow has to be cut off and rerouted, or do you think it could just have another wire grafted in and run to battery ground?  Sort of a redundant system?
Brian in Minnesota

Offline Steve in Sunny Fla

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Re: FREE POWER (you're gonna like this one!)
« Reply #23 on: December 13, 2013, 01:33:27 pm »
Steve, is there a reason the Black/Yellow has to be cut off and rerouted, or do you think it could just have another wire grafted in and run to battery ground?  Sort of a redundant system?

My concern was that just jumping into the ground wire and going back to the battery would still leave a voltage drop to the ignitor, so I wanted an isolated path. Steve
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Offline DVanecekOld

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Re: FREE POWER (you're gonna like this one!)
« Reply #24 on: December 13, 2013, 01:40:30 pm »
Coming from the left side of the picture, there appears to be first a yellow wire, then a blue wire, then a green/black, then a yellow/ black.    In the picture it would appear from the small view we have that only the fourth wire has yellow and black, is that the correct wire?  I'm just a bit confused as you used the term "black wire with yellow stripe" which has me looking for an almost all black wire as in contrast to the picture (which doesn't show us all the wire) seems to be equal part black and yellow.   Just a minor detail,  Thanks for sharing this with us, do plan to do this but....not till spring!