Author Topic: half naked: trim piece and tip-over bars  (Read 509 times)

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Offline batboy

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half naked: trim piece and tip-over bars
« on: August 07, 2019, 02:27:52 am »
Since the exhaust is done, I figured a new thread was in order. Looks like the bike will be half naked for a while. I spent way too much time making black trim to cover up the middle fairing mounting holes. It came out great though, if I must say so myself. I used landscaping edging that I cut down and sanded to fit. It provides a nice finished look. I used a hair drier to make the bends in the front. Then I drilled a small hole out of sight on the inside and zip tied the inside front so they would stay in place.

I was afraid the tip-over bars would look goofy without the middle fairing, but I put them on and they look good to me. True sport bike guys might look down their nose at me. But, who cares? I really want them installed in case I drop the bike and of course, they have highway pegs mounted too.

I got the oil changed and took it out for another 30 mile ride. As long as I ride easy and only use part throttle, the AFR is fine and throttle response is snappy. At WOT, it's pig rich once above 6k rpm. We have rain in the forecast for the next couple of days. That might be a good time to swap in the 36mm carbs.

Once that's done, I have a whole lot of tuning and jetting to do. I'll try to post an update and a photo every day (if I work on the bike).
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Offline DC Concours

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Re: half naked: trim piece and tip-over bars
« Reply #1 on: August 07, 2019, 02:35:46 am »
Everytime I see those I worry that you will bust your engine bolt right off next time you fall with a little speed.

Offline batboy

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Re: half naked: trim piece and tip-over bars
« Reply #2 on: August 07, 2019, 02:42:54 am »
The next time I fall? That makes it sound like I've dropped it already. I haven't... yet.

 :)

Those are tough bolts... grade 8.8 I think. I've not heard of the bolts breaking... have you?
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Offline Bud

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Re: half naked: trim piece and tip-over bars
« Reply #3 on: August 07, 2019, 10:12:28 am »
The next time I fall? That makes it sound like I've dropped it already. I haven't... yet.

 :)

Those are tough bolts... grade 8.8 I think. I've not heard of the bolts breaking... have you?
It's not so much the bolt breaking as possibly breaking the mounting points on the engine.  Looks like you're getting there!
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Offline DC Concours

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Re: half naked: trim piece and tip-over bars
« Reply #4 on: August 07, 2019, 03:02:24 pm »
Sorry, as Bud says..I meant the mounting points.

And yes I believe someone here had that happen. I rather bust up my plastics than have a busted engine. Forget about those stupid tip over bars. I never installed mine after assessing the angles of impact and the forces it might take.


Offline batboy

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Re: half naked: trim piece and tip-over bars
« Reply #5 on: August 07, 2019, 04:37:41 pm »
Yeah, if the bike goes down at speed, things will break, with or without those bars.

Changing the subject, I have a ZZR1200 rear shock and I was able to install my Soupy lowering links by using washers to change the spacing at the top of the link. The problem is fitting the adjustable links with the shock's external spring in the way. I have the link angled a little to fit around the spring. I knew it was less than ideal, so I told myself to check it again later. This morning was later. The way I have it installed will not work long term. But, I really need the bike lowered, especially since the ZZR1200 shock raised the suspension a little. I know the Soupy links won't work for the C-14 shock either. About my only  other choice is Norm Saucy's lowering rocker. There seems to be conflicting info as to whether he is still making them for the C-10. Somewhere I saw contact info for him. I just have to remember where.
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Offline MAN OF BLUES

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Re: half naked: trim piece and tip-over bars
« Reply #6 on: August 07, 2019, 10:35:28 pm »
The next time I fall? That makes it sound like I've dropped it already. I haven't... yet.

 :)

Those are tough bolts... grade 8.8 I think. I've not heard of the bolts breaking... have you?

yes.. what you don't understand is the differecnce between metric and asme specs.. being a mechanical engineer, pecifically oriented on product requiring universal grade acceptance, I will tell you the 8.8 on that bolt head, equates to a grade 5 in SAE /ASME terms, which here in the USA we find as the "lowest possible rated bolt" for ue, yes, we have grade 3, and "ungraded ones.. but grade 5 is known as "industry standard normal, fastener" and not a "grade * bolt..   by any means.

The heads do snap off. just warning you. but, braking the engine mount point is far worse.. I'd rather have a snapped off bolt head, then a broken mount.


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Offline DC Concours

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Re: half naked: trim piece and tip-over bars
« Reply #7 on: August 08, 2019, 02:40:40 am »
MOB, you've been around these a long time-- what is the likelihood of busting the mount points in a slow moving drop?

Offline batboy

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Re: half naked: trim piece and tip-over bars
« Reply #8 on: August 08, 2019, 03:18:52 am »
Ok, I yield and admit I don't know much about hardness of bolts. That's just plain silly that metric 8.8 is closer to hardness 5. I googlied this and saw you need a metric 10.9 to equal hardness 8. Then I learned about sheer forces that can break bolts easier than you think and my brain turned to jelly trying to understand. I can see what you mean though, the mounting points are not ideal on those bars. It's doubtful that I could make anything better though.
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Offline Bob

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Re: half naked: trim piece and tip-over bars
« Reply #9 on: August 08, 2019, 12:15:44 pm »
The next time I fall? That makes it sound like I've dropped it already. I haven't... yet.

 :)

Those are tough bolts... grade 8.8 I think. I've not heard of the bolts breaking... have you?

yes.. what you don't understand is the differecnce between metric and asme specs.. being a mechanical engineer, pecifically oriented on product requiring universal grade acceptance, I will tell you the 8.8 on that bolt head, equates to a grade 5 in SAE /ASME terms, which here in the USA we find as the "lowest possible rated bolt" for ue, yes, we have grade 3, and "ungraded ones.. but grade 5 is known as "industry standard normal, fastener" and not a "grade * bolt..   by any means.

The heads do snap off. just warning you. but, braking the engine mount point is far worse.. I'd rather have a snapped off bolt head, then a broken mount.



This chart is great
  I never knew, or had forgotten, what these bolt head patterns meant.
    ( I ain't no spring chicken).

And.....
The previous owner installed my tip over bars and bolts.
I'm gonna take a closer look at these

Thanks MOB
Bob
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Offline batboy

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Re: half naked: trim piece and tip-over bars
« Reply #10 on: August 08, 2019, 12:55:23 pm »
If you ever do install 36mm carbs, you just about have to get new mounting boots for both sides. The 32mm are too small and if they are original, they become inflexible with age. I recommend the OEM boots on the air box side (two different part numbers). Cylinders #1 and #3 use one part (14073-1273) and #2 and #4 uses another (14073-1274). Those part numbers are for the 36mm carbs, so if you have 32mm carbs, you'll need to look them up. New OEM air box boots will roll back which allows more room. I also got new aftermarket intake boots for the 36mm carbs. I briefly tried to use the old boots just for grins. I quickly gave up. They're hard as a rock. Even if you have the stock 32mm carbs, new air box boots really helps with carb removal and installation. As you can see from the photo, the Ninja carbs are in, but that's as far as I've got.
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Offline batboy

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Re: half naked: trim piece and tip-over bars
« Reply #11 on: August 08, 2019, 07:29:33 pm »
...the front boots, which also must be installed correctly, with the little square tab siting @ 12 o'clock, those have a slight offset angle iirc, and make a difference in the angle of attack.

I noticed this when I was doing a 36mm install, using Ninja carbs and front boots.

If I had read this before hand, it would have saved me an hour of messing with getting the front boots properly aligned and fitted.

The only easy fix I came up with on the bars is to install low grade bolts at the end of the bars so that breaks first and maybe not the motor mount on the head?
« Last Edit: August 08, 2019, 07:32:51 pm by batboy »
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Offline MAN OF BLUES

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Re: half naked: trim piece and tip-over bars
« Reply #12 on: August 08, 2019, 07:45:46 pm »
If you ever do install 36mm carbs, you just about have to get new mounting boots for both sides. The 32mm are too small and if they are original, they become inflexible with age. I recommend the OEM boots on the air box side (two different part numbers). Cylinders #1 and #3 use one part (14073-1273) and #2 and #4 uses another (14073-1274). Those part numbers are for the 36mm carbs, so if you have 32mm carbs, you'll need to look them up. New OEM air box boots will roll back which allows more room. I also got new aftermarket intake boots for the 36mm carbs. I briefly tried to use the old boots just for grins. I quickly gave up. They're hard as a rock. Even if you have the stock 32mm carbs, new air box boots really helps with carb removal and installation. As you can see from the photo, the Ninja carbs are in, but that's as far as I've got.

best of luck with those 36's..   I think I did make mention of most of that, in simpler form, back when you began wanting to do those... you are now finding what we found back in the "early hotrod" days when we experimented with them.. we paid the price, and in the end, found no big benefit on the ZG1000, actually, and most cases we found it just added difficulty to make the bike run optimum. It's fun to experiment tho, and fun to watch.

MOB, you've been around these a long time-- what is the likelihood of busting the mount points in a slow moving drop?

my opinion is if using the correct bolt, and torquing it correctly, the bolt will pop before the mount... but, a with anything, variables can occur, and depending on what "angle" and forward momentum, the bike falls over at, directs the forces differently; case in point, a bike rolling backwards at walking speed, falling and flexing the mounts forward, may just nap the bolt head off, but the same instance moving forward, may put more "hammer force/pressure" directly on the mount itself, and break that while the bolt holds and the bar mtg flange bends.. Tough to say. I will say this tho, for those bolts, adhere to the proper strength 8.8 ISO/Metric rating... bumping up to a stronger bolt, will not let the bolt be "sacrificial" if the bike is dropped.. I'd rater buy a bolt, than have my bike welded on..or have to buy parts...


Ok, I yield and admit I don't know much about hardness of bolts. That's just plain silly that metric 8.8 is closer to hardness 5. I googlied this and saw you need a metric 10.9 to equal hardness 8. Then I learned about sheer forces that can break bolts easier than you think and my brain turned to jelly trying to understand. I can see what you mean though, the mounting points are not ideal on those bars. It's doubtful that I could make anything better though.

 :rotflmao: :rotflmao: :great:
It's not called "hardness" it's called "tensile strength"... different terminology all together.... ;)
and, as we live in a world with different manufacturing and engineering parameters, It's not considered "silly" at all... just accept it, that's the way it is... you really didn't need to Google it all, and make your brain hurt, I posted the chart for your usage when I made the post... should have simply looked at it...  I tend to include things like that in my posts, to simplify this for people.

47 years of designing /Product/Project mechanical engineering, and specifying fasteners of every different type, and thread configuration does tend to be a bit mind boggling for most; there are soo many specific specialized thread forms in use, it isn't simple to "substitute one for another"... Take for example a large structural "machine", manufactured here in the U.S.A., using ASME/SAE standards on both materials, and fasteners... now say the company wants to "re-engineer it", for a foreign nation, maybe Europe, or Asian manufacture...  Both of those "projects" must meet the structural parameters of the materials available in both locations, Structral steel differs both in measurement (not just converting inchess to mm's) because of how those materials are made, and the actual sizes they manufacture by country... then Add in all the fasteners.. and recalculate everthing based on Inch vs. Metric, and the individual strengths and even torques, required to meet the original design.

If you really want to see insane screw threads... research "sewing machine screws"... that'll keep you spinning for hours... no pun intended...

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Offline batboy

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Re: half naked: trim piece and tip-over bars
« Reply #13 on: August 08, 2019, 09:06:15 pm »
So, engineers designed a hardness scale, but it's for tensile strength, not hardness? Sheesh! Ok, I have a graduate degree in geology, if I can just somehow shift the discussion toward science, maybe I can score a few points. Then perhaps you'll stop taking me for granite.

MOB, so you are going out on a limb and saying I'll not see any big benefit? Define big benefit? I'd be tickled pink with 100 hp to the wheel. It's been a fun trip and I'm learning more about my bike in a year than many riders do in a decade. Besides, this is a bucket list thing.
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Offline MAN OF BLUES

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Re: half naked: trim piece and tip-over bars
« Reply #14 on: August 08, 2019, 10:16:35 pm »
So, engineers designed a hardness scale, but it's for tensile strength, not hardness? Sheesh! Ok, I have a graduate degree in geology, if I can just somehow shift the discussion toward science, maybe I can score a few points. Then perhaps you'll stop taking me for granite.

MOB, so you are going out on a limb and saying I'll not see any big benefit? Define big benefit? I'd be tickled pink with 100 hp to the wheel. It's been a fun trip and I'm learning more about my bike in a year than many riders do in a decade. Besides, this is a bucket list thing.

sorry, wasn't taking your education for "granite", especially if it was in geology.. think of "grain structure" as it relates to rocks.
there lies the "strength vs. hardness" discussion, and that is the overlap between values of each that metals also share.. but they are measured differently; picture trying to break a metal "thing" by either striking it hard with a forceful blow, or trying to "stretch it" to it's breaking point.
https://www.esabna.com/euweb/oxy_handbook/589oxy8_6.htm

I'll drop that for now, was just saying there was a difference.

as for thee benefits gained by the 36's, might want to call SISF at Shoodabeen, and discuss what we both did, with the 36's, and how much we gained. we both played with them for a couple years. simultaneously.

the easiest "way" to get more horsepower to the rear wheel, is by switching out the actual output gear housing, and internal gears.... kind of the opposite of the "sixth gear mod", which puts the horsepower to the final drive, and ground, while pushing the rpm range from the "low end/torque", to upper revving "torque", like the Ninja... that you used for your cam...

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Offline Nosmo

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Re: half naked: trim piece and tip-over bars
« Reply #15 on: August 09, 2019, 12:05:01 am »
From MOB:  If you really want to see insane screw threads... research "sewing machine screws"

Wow. That may explain something I had totally forgotten about.  My father died when I was nine.  He was at the time a sewing machine repairman.  Later, when I got to playing around with mechanical stuff, bicycles, lawnmowers, minibikes, etc.,  I was always looking for spare parts, nuts, bolts, screws, etc.  There was stuff in our garage that would never fit ANYTHING.  I gradually learned about NC and NF threads, etc., and later I figured that stuff was probably metric, but now I wonder if it was old Singer stuff that he had saved over the years.

https://www.singersewinginfo.co.uk/screw_threads/
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Offline batboy

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Re: half naked: trim piece and tip-over bars
« Reply #16 on: August 09, 2019, 01:33:54 am »
While this has nothing to do with sewing machines, my father had several old coffee cans full of nuts and bolts and washers. If you needed a bolt, you dump a can or two and sorted through it until you found one that worked.

The bike is back together. I'll wheel it outside in the morning and see if it'll start.

UPDATE: I got it fired up and running. I warmed it up at an idle and just blipped the throttle a few times to make sure it was snapping right back when I let up. It did, so my throttle cables must be adjusted okay. The 32mm carbs seemed to be a tad lean at idle and these 36mm carbs seem a tad rich. I initially set the low speed screw to 2-1/2 turns, then changed it to 3 turns before I installed them. If I can find a screwdriver that will fit, I'm going to try adjusting them back to 2-1/2 turns with the carbs on the bike. Once that's set, it'll be time for a test ride.
« Last Edit: August 09, 2019, 12:11:42 pm by batboy »
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Offline turbojoe78_MA

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Re: half naked: trim piece and tip-over bars
« Reply #17 on: August 09, 2019, 01:22:28 pm »
MOB, so you are going out on a limb and saying I'll not see any big benefit? Define big benefit? I'd be tickled pink with 100 hp to the wheel. It's been a fun trip and I'm learning more about my bike in a year than many riders do in a decade. Besides, this is a bucket list thing.

batboy,  with the ZX1000 cam and the Ninja carbs you might just be able to get to 100 hp or close to it.  Here are some dyno runs of the 99 I use to own.

The first one was with the 36mm carbs off my 86 ZX1000R after SISF set up the jetting on them for me to go along with a set of his power cams.  (custom ground ZX1000R cams)  The carbs were set up with his 2mm mod in mind so I had to adjust the blockage in the airbox for fine tuning.
If I remember correctly, Steve installed aftermarket needles, drilled out the enrichener jets and pilot jets slightly and used 115 main jets.

The second and third dyno charts are with the 32mm carbs with the jets and needles swapped over from the 36's.  As you can see, the max hp was just about the same, with the 32's getting just a little more torque than the 36's.  I liked the way the 36's responded to throttle input better so when I put on the bored out cylinders with ZX11 pistons I went back to the 36mm carbs but dropped the main jets to 112.5's.  I had to cut back on the blockage more than I thought I should have to get the A/F down when I had the 36's on the first time and lost a little of the throttle response that the 2mm mode was known for.  I never got it back on the dyno after the bigger pistons, but my butt dyno, and the fact it would lift the front tire easier, told me it had more power.

Good luck on your quest for more power.  I know I had lots of fun trying for more when I owned my 99, I just ran out of mods to do so I got a C14.  Joe C

P.S.  I couldn't get any better quality with what I have here at work for the charts, PM me if you would like to see better ones.
1968 Honda 160 Scrambler,  Sold / 1979 Kawasaki SR 650, Traded in for next one,  1978 Kawasaki KZ 1000 Z1R Turbo Sold / 1986 Kawasaki ZX 1000R Ninja Sold / 1999 Kawasaki Concours Sold / 2014 Kawasaki Concours


Offline batboy

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Re: half naked: trim piece and tip-over bars
« Reply #18 on: August 09, 2019, 02:31:55 pm »
Thanks for the input, Turbo Joe. That will help me as I'm tuning.

Ok, I turned the pilot screw in a 1/2 turn and then another 1/2 turn. So, I'm at 2 turns total. Idle  AFR is much better, but still  a little rich. Maybe a 1/4 turn more? Then, I remembered you start with getting the main jet right first and worry about the low speed later.

I had been diligently checking for leaks. To my dismay I found where a few drops had collected. I quickly figured out it was from the drain of #1 carb. This could mean either (A) the needle valve was not closing all the way or (B) the drain screw and/or o-ring were leaking.  I grabbed my 3mm T-handle allen ball tip wrench and checked the drain. It was tight. I opened it and lightly closed it several times while letting gas run out to flush any grud out of the seat. I tightened the drain and primed the carbs. No more leak. I'll watch this for a while to make sure it stays fixed. I'm sure it's my bad for not flushing out one of the bowls good enough.

It starts up instantly and it sounds good if I blip the throttle. I'll check for leaks one more time and then take it for a short test ride.
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Offline batboy

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Re: half naked: trim piece and tip-over bars
« Reply #19 on: August 09, 2019, 03:34:03 pm »
I'm pleased to report the short test ride was successful and I'm still grinning like an idiot. I have 36mm carbs with 132 main jets. Yes, the wideband shows that WOT is rich, but not as bad as I expected

I went WOT in third gear and watched as AFR began dipping into the low 11s and high 10s at about 8k rpm. When I let up and glanced at speed, I was way over 90 mph. It was pulling hard from 6k to 8k.

I have studied several tuning guides, including the "pink sheets" which I tend to refer to the most. It says to run the bike hard for 15 minutes before deciding what main jets to use. So, I'm taking off for a longer more aggressive ride. I suspect that I'll want to try 128 or 130 main jets.
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Offline batboy

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Re: half naked: trim piece and tip-over bars
« Reply #20 on: August 09, 2019, 06:01:23 pm »
Wow! I wind it up easy in first and second, then hit third and twist quickly to WOT. The way the bike pulls hard and rocks back on the suspension makes me feel like it's trying to pull the wheel off the ground. I know a N/A Connie shaft drive can't do that, but I lean forward... just in case...

I stayed under 8k rpm because it was getting too rich in the upper range. It pulls like a locomotive from 6k to 8k. The fun factor doubled for me. I find myself riding the bike like it's a 5 speed. The perk for living in the middle of nowhere, lots of low traffic rural highways and blacktop roads.

Can't wait until this thing is jetted and tuned. It's gonna be fantastic and fun. I decided to make one single change and swap in the next step smaller main jets (130 Keihin). I'll probably order a set of 128 jets at the same time too, just in case I need to go another step smaller. I think those big tube headers are really working well. So far, I haven't noted any ill effects, besides the fact that fuel economy is down.

No more drips of gas from the drain. That was puzzling, because I did a bench leak test after I rebuilt the carbs and used clear tubing to measure the float heights. Seems fixed now, I'll keep an eye on it.

Think I'll take it for another ride and maybe take a couple photos? Yeah!
« Last Edit: August 09, 2019, 06:06:13 pm by batboy »
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Offline Bud

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Re: half naked: trim piece and tip-over bars
« Reply #21 on: August 09, 2019, 07:28:24 pm »
Really glad it's putting a grin on your face!  That's what it's all about! :beerchug:
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Offline Nosmo

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Re: half naked: trim piece and tip-over bars
« Reply #22 on: August 09, 2019, 08:05:22 pm »
Wow! I wind it up easy in first and second, then hit third and twist quickly to WOT. The way the bike pulls hard and rocks back on the suspension makes me feel like it's trying to pull the wheel off the ground. I know a N/A Connie shaft drive can't do that, but I lean forward... just in case...

I stayed under 8k rpm because it was getting too rich in the upper range. It pulls like a locomotive from 6k to 8k. The fun factor doubled for me. I find myself riding the bike like it's a 5 speed. The perk for living in the middle of nowhere, lots of low traffic rural highways and blacktop roads.

Can't wait until this thing is jetted and tuned. It's gonna be fantastic and fun. I decided to make one single change and swap in the next step smaller main jets (130 Keihin). I'll probably order a set of 128 jets at the same time too, just in case I need to go another step smaller. I think those big tube headers are really working well. So far, I haven't noted any ill effects, besides the fact that fuel economy is down.

No more drips of gas from the drain. That was puzzling, because I did a bench leak test after I rebuilt the carbs and used clear tubing to measure the float heights. Seems fixed now, I'll keep an eye on it.

Think I'll take it for another ride and maybe take a couple photos? Yeah!



Are you sure??

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Offline batboy

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Re: half naked: trim piece and tip-over bars
« Reply #23 on: August 10, 2019, 01:58:34 am »
Guess I'll keep leaning forward when I go WOT.

This last ride I did some low speed acceleration and went back to using sixth gear at cruising speed. It felt like power was about the same down low (under 3k rpm), but once revs start to build, it really comes alive. I have a set of 130 main jets ordered (one step smaller than what I currently have). That will take about a week to get the new jets.

I guess we can discuss any other performance mods as long as I don't have to open up the engine. That means head porting and big bore pistons are off the  table. So, the compression ratio will stay the same too. Not much left to do once the fine tuning is done. I do have 4 degree ignition timing plate. The 91 octane premium gas here is about the only thing available without alcohol. If the timing is advanced, I'll use the higher octane fuel. One  thing I almost forgot is the Delkevic baffle. Pulling it out is suppose to make a little more top end power. Guess I'll test it in and out, but I don't want the muffler to be excessively loud.  It's near perfect right now.
1988 Kawasaki Concours ZG1000 - Ninja Edition
Bike has the usual accessories and modifications