Author Topic: How come we don't all install in-line fuel valves to block hydolock?  (Read 43971 times)

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Offline mattchewn

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Re: How come we don't all install in-line fuel valves to block hydolock?
« Reply #100 on: February 11, 2015, 03:13:28 am »
Willy,
Air will compress, the pressure will keep increasing but it will keep compressing. Likewise, air will leak past rings,(they do not provide a perfect seal), and valve seats much faster than a liquid. Therefore, it will take more actual liquid (fuel or antifreeze in the case of a head gasket failure), than combustion chamber volume to cause a hydrolock event.
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Offline WillyP

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Re: How come we don't all install in-line fuel valves to block hydolock?
« Reply #101 on: February 11, 2015, 12:32:14 pm »
Sorry, wrong, air is not infinitely compressible*. At some point in compression, air becomes a liquid. No motor can handle that without damage.

However, at some point the air will become so compressed that the piston will stop. I don't know how much air this is, in relation to cylinder size or the amount of fuel, but I don't believe the fuel needs to be 100% or the combustion chamber. And also, we are assuming the piston is at BDC, if the piston were not at BDC there would be less air and therefore need more fuel.

Also keep in mind it doesn't need to be an absolute impossible blockage of movement, it only needs to be enough resistance to movement to exceed the rod's resistance to bending. In other words, there could be a situation were the strength of the rod were a factor. A stronger rod would be less likely to bend and possibly force the piston through what would be a hydrolock and bent rod with a weaker rod.

So to make a long story short, the liquid only needs to raise the compression ratio up the the point were the rod bends. If the liquid equals the combustion chamber, we have infinity to 1 compression ratio. I am sure you can see that it takes less than that to damage a motor. What that ratio is, I don't know.




*at least not by any method known to man. Any matter is compressible, even solids. But, we cannot further compress many materials, like a diamond for instance. It's not that a diamond can't be compressed, it just that we don't have the ability. Maybe someday we'll create portable black holes.

Our motors are damaged when trying to compress liquids, not because liquids can't be compressed, but because the motor isn't strong enough to do so.
« Last Edit: February 11, 2015, 12:40:17 pm by WillyP »
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Offline Mcfly

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Re: How come we don't all install in-line fuel valves to block hydolock?
« Reply #102 on: February 14, 2015, 01:26:59 am »
McFly,
What is the compression ratio of a ZG 1000? 10 to 1? If so it would only take slightly more than 1/10th of the compressed volume of one cylinder to have a hydrolock. The cylinder only has to have more fuel than room. Depending on piston location in the stroke that could be minimal.
Matt

There's a lot more to it... most importantly the strength of the connecting rod, and the maximum pressure
it can exert before failing...  the compression is also an air/fuel mixture, which is more dense than just air.
Fuel is part of the compression volume.  My answer was to the volume of the cylinder at TDC, and a simple guess
as to what's actually needed.  The more I think it through the more it hurts my head...  (Metal fatigue, ring wear,
so many variables).

the liquid only needs to raise the compression ratio up the the point were the rod bends. If the liquid equals the combustion chamber, we have infinity to 1 compression ratio. I am sure you can see that it takes less than that to damage a motor. What that ratio is, I don't know.

Our motors are damaged when trying to compress liquids, not because liquids can't be compressed, but because the motor isn't strong enough to do so.

 :iagree: 

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Offline Steve in Sunny Fla

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Re: How come we don't all install in-line fuel valves to block hydolock?
« Reply #103 on: February 14, 2015, 03:21:06 am »
I'm not getting into the fray on whether or not a compressible gas can cause a rod to bend , but I can say that then entire volume of fuel needed is less than one ounce to fully overfill the combustion chamber volume and prevent the piston from reaching TDC. HTH,  IIRC, the combustion chamber volume is 17cc, then add in the head gasket volume, maybe 2.5 cc or so. Steve
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Offline Snowdog

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Re: How come we don't all install in-line fuel valves to block hydolock?
« Reply #104 on: February 14, 2015, 08:11:41 pm »
there are inline vacuum shut off vales that work great,except they cost $150.

Offline Jim Snyder

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Re: How come we don't all install in-line fuel valves to block hydolock?
« Reply #105 on: February 14, 2015, 10:15:17 pm »
I solved this issue years ago by installing a Pingel fuel valve. Then two years ago I got Steve's overflow tubes installed just as extra insurance.
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Offline Mettler1

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Re: How come we don't all install in-line fuel valves to block hydolock?
« Reply #106 on: February 15, 2015, 12:41:14 am »
   Bought my bike 20yrs ago. Only on my 2nd oem valve. Really don't use it much so it gets little wear.
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Offline BlueTroll

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Re: How come we don't all install in-line fuel valves to block hydolock?
« Reply #107 on: February 15, 2015, 03:12:50 am »
Well if it's any consolation, I agree with you Rev Ryder.

I've always thought overflow tubes were a tad bit risky and is probably the reason they're not installed by the manufacturer.  Nothing like pouring gasonline on hot exhaust to ruin your life.   :beerchug:
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Offline SteveJ.

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Re: How come we don't all install in-line fuel valves to block hydolock?
« Reply #108 on: February 15, 2015, 12:38:10 pm »
Well if it's any consolation, I agree with you Rev Ryder.

I've always thought overflow tubes were a tad bit risky and is probably the reason they're not installed by the manufacturer.  Nothing like pouring gasonline on hot exhaust to ruin your life.   :beerchug:
Ummm, they do come with a drain tube so that any overflow can be directed.

This is opposed to no overflows where the gas usually, sometimes, or frequently comes out of the airbox. Not much direction of flow there.
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Offline Steve in Sunny Fla

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Re: How come we don't all install in-line fuel valves to block hydolock?
« Reply #109 on: February 15, 2015, 01:19:13 pm »
Well if it's any consolation, I agree with you Rev Ryder.

I've always thought overflow tubes were a tad bit risky and is probably the reason they're not installed by the manufacturer.  Nothing like pouring gasonline on hot exhaust to ruin your life.   :beerchug:

  the kawasaki voyager was made the same years as the c-10. The voyagers all had drain tubes and a drain line. If it was oo "risky" none of the models would have had them. JMO, Steve
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Offline Mcfly

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Re: How come we don't all install in-line fuel valves to block hydolock?
« Reply #110 on: February 15, 2015, 02:17:41 pm »
Personally, I would much rather have control over where bowl overflow gas goes, rather
than let it go where it wants, because we KNOW where it goes, hence this discussion.

Fact is, most people I know in this group are fairly pro-active, and stay on top of maintenance
issues, so I'm thinkin' a very small percentage will actually see them do there job, which is a
good thing.  Anyone using the overflow tubes as an overflow indicator is totally missing the point, eh?

It's like using your car's air bag system as a brake failure warning system....   ???


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Offline LessPaul

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Re: How come we don't all install in-line fuel valves to block hydolock?
« Reply #111 on: February 15, 2015, 07:05:30 pm »
Just curious....how many here have had SISF's overflow tubes installed and at some point come out to the garage to discover a pool of gas beneath the bike....

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Offline Big E

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Re: How come we don't all install in-line fuel valves to block hydolock?
« Reply #112 on: February 15, 2015, 09:03:40 pm »
Just seems that installing a 5/16" ID fuel shut off just downstream of the factory unit is good cheap insurance and in no way at all effects the flow to the carbs.  :great:

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Re: How come we don't all install in-line fuel valves to block hydolock?
« Reply #113 on: February 15, 2015, 11:51:52 pm »
Just seems that installing a 5/16" ID fuel shut off just downstream of the factory unit is good cheap insurance and in no way at all effects the flow to the carbs.  :great:

IF you remember to shut it off EVERY TIME.  It's the same as installing a Pingel (on/off petcock).
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Offline Jim Snyder

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Re: How come we don't all install in-line fuel valves to block hydolock?
« Reply #114 on: February 16, 2015, 11:48:27 am »
Just curious....how many here have had SISF's overflow tubes installed and at some point come out to the garage to discover a pool of gas beneath the bike....

I have Steve's overflow tubes and I have never had as much as one drop of fuel on the shop floor.
Of course that is mainly due to my Pingel fuel valve being in the "OFF" position when the bike is not running.
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Offline Mettler1

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Re: How come we don't all install in-line fuel valves to block hydolock?
« Reply #115 on: February 16, 2015, 12:05:14 pm »
Just curious....how many here have had SISF's overflow tubes installed and at some point come out to the garage to discover a pool of gas beneath the bike....

I have Steve's overflow tubes and I have never had as much as one drop of fuel on the shop floor.
Of course that is mainly due to my Pingel fuel valve being in the "OFF" position when the bike is not running.

    OK, I'm in. I use the OEM fuel valve!! On my second one on my C10 that I have owned for 20 yrs. I retired the first one after 14 yrs.. Never had a drop of fuel from my bike on the garage floor. So there!!   ;)
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Offline SteveJ.

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Re: How come we don't all install in-line fuel valves to block hydolock?
« Reply #116 on: February 16, 2015, 03:10:03 pm »
No leakage, on my third petcock in 214k miles, carbbies serviced from time to time by Shoodaben Engineering.
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Offline LessPaul

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Re: How come we don't all install in-line fuel valves to block hydolock?
« Reply #117 on: February 16, 2015, 07:26:11 pm »
When I asked about post-SISF carb work gas leaks, I was kinda playing devil's advocate.

Those with SISF's overflow tubes know that hydrolock can't happen to them.  But the petcock can still fail.  And the carbs can still get gummed up. The difference of course is that if those two conditions occur at the same time (with tubes), the gas ends up on the garage floor, not filling the cylinders or airbox.

Overflow tubes don't prevent a petcock from going bad, or carbs from getting gummed up anew.

Sooo....if you have SISF's overflow tubes, you have precisely the same likelihood of generating the factors needed for hydrolock as those without. You're protected, of course, from the effects. But the likelihood is no different than for those without.

If nobody ever gets gas on their garage floor (with the overflow tubes), the same percentage would never have experienced it without the tubes.

Perhaps the risk of hydrolock isn't quite as high as many might think?  I can't really answer that. I know the stakes are high, which makes overflow tubes worth the price of admission. But hydrolock is presented as the big, bad boogeyman of Concours ownership here. We're a bit fixated on it.

BUT.....
I can't believe I wouldn't notice a strong gas smell in my garage (or in a parking lot). I can't believe I wouldn't notice a gas leak under my bike. Of course, it might not always mean gas on the floor, but the odor would be way obvious. If someone doesn't KNOW about hydrolock, they might probably just try to start up as normal....and CLUNK. But if you DO know about the potential for hydrolock, how could you NOT notice?

As McFly noted, I would think that if one takes preventative maintenance seriously (as most of us do), it'd be really hard not to notice a strong gas smell, or puddle of gas under the bike.

Just sayin'.....

I've always parked my bikes over clean sheet of cardboard. If I get a leak of any kind, I notice it right away.

BTW....I plan on getting overflow tubes with SISF's spa treatment at some point. I might be tempting fate by waiting until my carbs feel like they need service (no complaints so far), but I think my regular pre-ride due diligence will greatly reduce the chances of experiencing a hydrolock event. The tubes make it 100%. I'm okay with 95% in the meantime.
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Offline Mettler1

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Re: How come we don't all install in-line fuel valves to block hydolock?
« Reply #118 on: February 16, 2015, 07:47:16 pm »
   I don't know if this has been addressed BUT overflow tube allows the gas to go on the ground (floor) instead of the carbs and cyl.  If you don't have overflow tubes the gas will fill the cyl's then over flow into the air box and onto the ground (floor).  Same result, just a different way of getting there.
    So don't sweat the over flow tubes getting gas on the floor. Either way the gas WILL find a way out when the petcock AND the float needle fail. Over flow tubes just prevent the gas getting into the cyls thus hydrolock if you try to start the engine!!  That's the less expensive results!! ;)
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Offline SteveJ.

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Re: How come we don't all install in-line fuel valves to block hydolock?
« Reply #119 on: February 16, 2015, 08:35:59 pm »
Then there could be the scenario where it's a small/slow leak at the float valve/petcock and the cylinder it is happening to just happens to have the intake valve open. In this aligning of the planets it may be possible to have enough gas leak into the cylinder to bend the rod but not necessarily give an odor off.

Thoughts?

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Offline LessPaul

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Re: How come we don't all install in-line fuel valves to block hydolock?
« Reply #120 on: February 16, 2015, 09:19:46 pm »
I think it's all too easy to overestimate the frequency, simply because the results can be so catastrophic. Forums like this one attract owners with problems, so I think we hear about hydrolock far more often than it exists in the real world. I also suspect there are a ton of Connies out there, marginally maintained (if at all), that have survived all the way to the landfill, without an incidence of hydrolock.

There are no doubt many different ways to get to the same hydrolock situation, but I think we are looking at a pretty small likelihood overall. Granted, overflow tubes are pretty good insurance, at a pretty reasonable price. But in the big picture, I also suspect we might be a bit obsessed with "separating the fly-chit from the pepper."

We all insure our homes against fire because it's a very real possibility. But nearly all of us will go thru life without burning our houses down....with or without insurance. Yeah, it happens. But not very often, despite how really easy it is to accidentally torch a home.

I seriously can't bring myself to get all worked up over preventing hydrolock. My bike stands a far greater risk of getting totaled in an accident. So, I'll do my due diligence (maintenance), keep my eyes (and nose) open, and hope for the best.



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Offline JPavlis_CA

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Re: How come we don't all install in-line fuel valves to block hydolock?
« Reply #121 on: February 16, 2015, 09:39:45 pm »
I think it's all too easy to overestimate the frequency, simply because the results can be so catastrophic. Forums like this one attract owners with problems, so I think we hear about hydrolock far more often than it exists in the real world. I also suspect there are a ton of Connies out there, marginally maintained (if at all), that have survived all the way to the landfill, without an incidence of hydrolock.
.....
I seriously can't bring myself to get all worked up over preventing hydrolock. My bike stands a far greater risk of getting totaled in an accident. So, I'll do my due diligence (maintenance), keep my eyes (and nose) open, and hope for the best.

 :a102: Oh man, Tim - now you've done it. Better hope Steve doesn't read this.   :D :rotflmao:
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Offline Steve in Sunny Fla

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Re: How come we don't all install in-line fuel valves to block hydolock?
« Reply #122 on: February 16, 2015, 09:59:36 pm »

 :a102: Oh man, Tim - now you've done it. Better hope Steve doesn't read this.   :D :rotflmao:

  I have read it, and Jim, Of course you know my position on this, and IMO, and I'm basing this on bikes I've personally worked on, not forum stuff, and the guys who call me ALL THE TIME  with hydrolocks, like the email I JUST ANSWERED 5 minutes ago, or the one I answered saturday that never shows up here on the forum, I'm going to say it like this:

  You're a grown man, it's your choice to ignore reality. It's your choice to ignore the best advise you're going to get. It's your choice to lose whatever monetary value you have in your bike. It's your choice to make a foolish decision, as long as you're willing to live with the consequences.

  Think I'm kidding... look at the recent thread by Mike in Texas - he emailed me before ever starting the thread, and he started the email with "I never thought it would happen to me"... So at some point, maybe it's going to be Lesspaul writing those same words.

  And no, this isn't my attempt at scare tactic doom and gloom, I believe at some point, with nothing to prevent a hydrolock , every c-10 will experience a hydrolock event if it lives long enough. JMO,. but based on seeing and hearing about lots of wrecked engines - steve
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Offline DC Concours

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Re: How come we don't all install in-line fuel valves to block hydolock?
« Reply #123 on: February 16, 2015, 10:40:35 pm »
In retrospect I am glad I bought my bike with clogged idle jets. Else I doubt I would have ever come to this site and discovered all this talk about hydrolocks (and TWC3 oil)!

I would have just ridden my bike for a year, or 5, till one day I would come here and my opening line would have been...I never thought it would happen to me but I just f****** my bike up.

For me it was a simple choice of needing my carbs working right, and while doing that why not get the protection put on it.

Now, had I not had clogged carbs and still discovered this site, I would have likely read less, and generally much less fastidious on all matters hydrolocks.

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Re: How come we don't all install in-line fuel valves to block hydolock?
« Reply #124 on: February 16, 2015, 10:51:54 pm »
*shrugs* in 2012, the day after I brought my '92 home, I went out to take it for a ride and noticed that it had a puddle of gas under it that was dripping off of the air box.  :-\ I only knew it's significance  because the day I bought it I started digging through the forum here learning as much as I could about my new toy.

I don't know what to say about the frequency it happens, but I can say is that it happened to me. If it were't for the articles here talking about it, I would have hit the starter button that morning, and likely bent a rod.








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