How come we don't all install in-line fuel valves to block hydolock?

[Steve in Sunny Fla]

I've done an electric solenoid installation also. Another in line flow restriction, we know how that works out. Steve

[Rev Ryder]

Bob Smith has run the electric solenoid for several years, but I think he said he wouldn't do it again.  Not positive of that though.  I know Steve did flow tests on this one and it was well reduced on flow.  Bob claimed no trouble from his IIRC, but...

Bottom line is it is still a fallible piece of equipment.  It IS most likely to fail in the OFF position since it requires electricity to open.  Someone could easily adapt an NOS solenoid (plenty of flow), but that too is still a device that will fail in the off position.  There is NO SOLUTION that I can see that doesn't have SOME KIND of drawback or point of failure.  The electric solenoids failing in the off position means you just don't go anywhere at all until it's remedied.  And I would think that since they are energized the entire time one is riding that the failure rate would be/could be kinda high.  Most solenoids are not rated for a 100% duty cycle.  They also place another electric demand on Connie's none too over-endowed electric/charging system.  I think Steve brought that out a few years ago as well when hydrolock began to become more common place as the bikes aged and fuels got funkier. 

Were I to go electric I would probably try this solenoid.
http://www.jegs.com/i/NOS/741/18060/10002/-1
I believe it would have more than adequate flow, provide little restriction, not be susceptible to fuel induced corrosion, and has a pretty low electrical demand at around 10 watts.  I have no idea how long it would last though under the strains of repeated long-term activation while touring.  But this is NOTHING like the solenoids that have been tested so far except that it is electric. 

[WillyP]

I don't know about that failure mode, Rev, I think your still looking at a spring loaded needle, similar to the vacuum petcock but with electricity. Granted, the electric means the spring could be much stronger, but if a piece of trash lands on the needle, it's still going to leak.

What we need is a manual petcock with a small gear-head motor attached. And of course you'd need some electronic logic to operate it, but I think that would be pretty simple. The motor would only run when turning the petcock on or off, and there would be a simple manual override if it failed. And there would be an LED to go on your dash that would indicate if the petcock was not closed.

Edit: I see mention of a 'Teflon piston', so I think that valve uses fuel pressure to stay closed. If it does it might not work so well.

Whatever method you use, it's a good idea to test it periodically. Even manual petcocks have been known to leak, so pull the line off now and then to check for leakage.

[Hazy]

Sweet! I set off Rev...My work here is done. 

My carbs have been cleaned, SISF'd, overflow tubes installed, and petcock rebuilt. I once had a few drops come out of the hose once but nowhere near the amounts mentioned previously. I'm confident that I will not have a leak requiring the overflow tubes in the near future.

I did have a scare once when I was doing my advanced MSF course last year on Mae. We had just come back from the range and parked for a potty break. Getting back on her I saw a small gas spill about the size of a quarter. Fortunately both instructors were COGGER's (near Dayton, Ohio) and they said it was because of all the hard turns we were making, gas had sloshed around in the bowls and down the OF tubes.

To be honest Rev, I never thought about the fire hazard. I was solely focused on the hydrolock issue. For what it's worth, I check the OF tube every time I walk through the garage. So far I haven't had a drop other than what was mentioned previously. And I'm hoping with what's been done to the carbs and petcock, I'll continue to be dropless.

[Daytona_Mike]

We've been 'round this topic so many times. There's at least one who installed an electric solenoid (Zorlac?) but I think he said he wouldn't recommend it or do it again. Someone suggested an electric or vacuum pump, but that would need a very low pressure regulator. Some who have tried adding a valve have had problems with getting sufficient fuel flow.

Everything is going to be a compromise.

I did install an electric solenoid and I too would not recommend it due to low fuel pressure. I also tried a low pressure fuel pump and  I do not recommend that either. I also tried many various configurations of inline fuel filters  all recommended by this forum and I do not recommend ANY inline filter whatsoever due to issues one of them being vapor lock .
All of the above was to try and  address and prevent very small tiny grains of sand getting into my needle seats and causing them to leak. Daytona Bleach has very very fine grains of sand that blow around the streets like a wintery day.
This was all before we knew about adding overflow tubes. The correct solution was to fix my split air box and  add over flow tubes.
Never an issue since then.

[stevedap]

I bought a 2000 a year ago, and installed a $7 manual petcock that I bought at a small engine shop, cutting into the fuel line just below the vacuum petcock, and secured it with tiny worm gear hose clamps. It's tight, but there is still room to get my gloved fingers in there to turn the valve. I placed a small label reading "Gas?" to my gauges to remind me to turn off the petcock after every ride.

But now if your stock petcock started leaking without you realizing it, all that's holding back fuel from the gas tank would be your manual petcock. A lot would then be riding on that $7 dollar petcock!  If it was me I'd just convert the stock petcock into a manual one by plugging the vacuum line. 
 

[2fast]

[/quote]
But now if your stock petcock started leaking without you realizing it, all that's holding back fuel from the gas tank would be your manual petcock. A lot would then be riding on that $7 dollar petcock!  If it was me I'd just convert the stock petcock into a manual one by plugging the vacuum line. 
[/quote]

Assuming you mean switching from Run to Prime as an on/off? That will work until it doesn't, just like all the other "fixes".  Over flow tubes are the fix, unless you blow up your garage. Man, nothing is perfect. If you want to know how much gas it will take to explode your garage, read this simple article for an easy to understand explanation. http://www.interfire.org/res_file/9213-1.asp

[stevedap]

2Fast,  was just pointing out that adding a second petcock below the stock one is probably no better than simply modifying the stock one to work as a manual on/off by disconnectiing and plugging the vacuum line. Probably worse in that you're now relying on a cheap shutoff valve, likely made in China, to prevent a hydrolock event if the factory petcock ever failed.     

[Mcfly]

Whatever method you use, it's a good idea to test it periodically. Even manual petcocks have been known to leak, so pull the line off now and then to check for leakage.

   Ma Kaw recommends inspecting your fuel system every 6,000 miles.  You are
supposed to check fuel hoses and connections every 3,000.  Basically every other oil change
you should be looking at your petcock...  making sure it's up to spec.  Manual or Vacuum Actuated.

Choose your method, and then maintain it. 

I like that idea using a catch can.  It would be pretty easy to set up a small
gas can with a funnel to throw under the o/f tube for 'extended breaks'   

[2fast]

2Fast,  was just pointing out that adding a second petcock below the stock one is probably no better than simply modifying the stock one to work as a manual on/off by disconnectiing and plugging the vacuum line. Probably worse in that you're now relying on a cheap shutoff valve, likely made in China, to prevent a hydrolock event if the factory petcock ever failed.     

Hey, I'm not trying to pick on you at all. You just made me consider the different types of shut off mechanisms. The stock unit relies mainly on a plunger with an oring and seat which is activated by the vac signal moving it in and out. Most inline valves are a passageway on a cylinder with fixed orings at the appropriate in/out locations. I think there is quite a bit less margin for error with that type. The problem on the practical side is that you can't move that type with vac signal, it requires a human or else a servo motor of some type. But then you either have the human or the little servo motor to allow failure. Like I was trying to say, any system CAN fail, just depends on which one you are more comfortable with.

[Zorlac]

"There's at least one who installed an electric solenoid (Zorlac?) but I think he said he wouldn't recommend it or do it again."

Au contraire, it's been working OK for 50K or more.
No question I'd do it again.
Not too hard to install the way I did once you pull the carbs. 
I did a detailed writeup on Rick's site. 

[gPink]

"There's at least one who installed an electric solenoid (Zorlac?) but I think he said he wouldn't recommend it or do it again."

Au contraire, it's been working OK for 50K or more.
No question I'd do it again.
Not too hard to install the way I did once you pull the carbs. 
I did a detailed writeup on Rick's site. 

Got a link?

[Zorlac]

No, due to Rick's scorched earth COG divorce a few years back. 

[gPink]

Thanks a lot for something I and many others had nothing to do with.
Gary

[JDM]

I have been running an electric solenoid valve longer than Zorlac, more than 60.000 miles, and I would not go back to using the OEM petcock if you tried to pay me. I am an old fart and, unlike me, this valve remembers to turn the fuel off every time.   

QUOTE: Bob Smith has run the electric solenoid for several years, but I think he said he wouldn't do it again.  Not positive of that though.  I know Steve did flow tests on this one and it was well reduced on flow.  Bob claimed no trouble from his IIRC, but... : QUOTE

Let me tell you how Bob Smith came to use this valve. On a recommendation from me, Gary Murphy purchased this valve for Bob to test it on his Connie. It is the same valve I am running on my Connie. The last time I talked with Bob, he was not having any issues with this valve and as far as I know he is still using it. BOB where are you? Show your self. Please 

[donaldj]

There are a lot of views on this subject and we should respect each others, and yes, we are all entitled to our own. It is obvious we will all never agree. Rev, I respect you view and hate that you and your friend suffered thru what you did.

I'm 70 and started ridding in 1955 and have owned and rode a lot of different motorcycles. There were certain things I learned to do, look out for other vehicles, look where I wanted to go, regular maintenance, pre ride check,  put my kickstand down before I walked away from the bike and yes shut the gas off (I have a manual shutoff). I'm not trying to over simplify this, but I have trained my brain to do certain things, especially when it comes to riding a motorcycle or bicycle.

Having seen a lot of changes in my lifetime, I really believe we rely on automation too much. Not enough thinking on our part. ??? I'm not trying to start anything here, just a senior citizens point of view.

[WillyP]

"There's at least one who installed an electric solenoid (Zorlac?) but I think he said he wouldn't recommend it or do it again."

Au contraire, it's been working OK for 50K or more.
No question I'd do it again.
Not too hard to install the way I did once you pull the carbs. 
I did a detailed writeup on Rick's site. 

My apologies, I stand corrected. For some reason though, I have the feeling I will make this same mistake next time this topic comes up. 

[Rev Ryder]

JD and Zorlac,
I had no idea (I'm sure I should have known this somehow) that you had electric solenoid valves on your bikes.  I was only aware of Bob's.  I knew that Murph got it for him to be a sort of Beta tester, but was unaware of others.  Really can't believe I didn't know of Mark using one.  I know that Bob never had problems from his due to flow or failure... and wasn't completely sure he was still running it.  For whatever reason I had it in mind that he was sort of "take it or leave it" on the valve.  But if it works, never gave a problem, and has been completely reliable I can't see where I could have gotten that.  Oh well.  My aging brain I suppose.

I do believe this is the same, exact valve that Steve flow tested though, is it not?  I can't remember the values that he came up with, but it seemed it flowed considerably less than the stock petcock... enough so that he felt it COULD be a performance damper.  All of that information and associated write-up by Steve was bound to have ALSO been lost after the "nukular" purge of a few years ago.  Shame dat. 

[Steve in Sunny Fla]

Rev - I spoke with JD yesterday, the valve he's using isn't the same as the one I tested, this one has a better flow rate, and also an unique mounting arrangement that may make it a good replacement for the factory petcock. I think all Q's should be drected to JDM though, it's his hard work that may be the big payoff here - steve

[Daytona_Mike]

I ran the electric valve. I purchased it  and the fuel lines from Murph. I do not know what model I got but I do know I ran out of fuel with it during a WOT run so it came off.
If there is a problem I always seem to get it. Sort of like the flu!

[Rev Ryder]

Rev - I spoke with JD yesterday, the valve he's using isn't the same as the one I tested, this one has a better flow rate, and also an unique mounting arrangement that may make it a good replacement for the factory petcock. I think all Q's should be drected to JDM though, it's his hard work that may be the big payoff here - steve

Interesting!!!
JD, have you any cool info/data/insight to share?  What kind of solenoid is yours.

Steve, wasn't the one you tested the same as Bob's?  I reckon memory ain't what it used to/ought to be.

[JDM]

Rev - I spoke with JD yesterday, the valve he's using isn't the same as the one I tested, this one has a better flow rate, and also an unique mounting arrangement that may make it a good replacement for the factory petcock. I think all Q's should be drected to JDM though, it's his hard work that may be the big payoff here - steve

Interesting!!!
JD, have you any cool info/data/insight to share?  What kind of solenoid is yours.

Steve, wasn't the one you tested the same as Bob's?  I reckon memory ain't what it used to/ought to be.

Rev, I think I have come up with a design that will address all the issues we have had with the aging Connie fuel system. I have been playing with this design for a number of years gathering information, running tests on the OEM petcock, adding heat shielding to the bottom of the tank to keep the fuel at a cooler temperature, rerouting the fuel line so it does not run over the top of the hot engine, creating a low point in the fuel system so I could add a settling bowl to catch trash, and a few other things I'm still working on. I'm trying to keep these old girls out of harms way. It is a sad day when you hear where someone has had a hydrolock experience with their Connie and bent a rod. When I started looking at the Connie fuel system, if you mentioned hydrolock on this forum, some folks would call you crazy and you were in for a knock down drag out.  Over time, as the old girls got some age on them, the problem has raised its ugly head too often. As far as I am concerned, hydrolock is the ultimate destroyer of the C10 Connie. Thanks to Steve's overflow tubes, a lot of Connies haven't ended up in a bone yard. I think my design will make the Connie even better than it already is but I need one more riding season to test it. Also, I am trying to talk Steve into helping me with the final testing. In my opinion, when it comes carburetors on the C10, Steve is the man. I am just trying to get him to start at the tank and work his way down. Rev, thanks for asking. JD     

[Rev Ryder]

When I started looking at the Connie fuel system, if you mentioned hydrolock on this forum, some folks would call you crazy and you were in for a knock down drag out. 

I certainly know that. 
When I reported my multiple hydrolock experiences and a bent rod, the word I was handed was "myth."  That was my first week or so on the old forum and I believe the same week I was about tar and feathered for posting up about a sale on an item from JC Whitney that could have cost a COG icon member sales.  I was nearly eaten alive and had to sort of apologize for unknowingly stepping onto "Holy Ground."  But then, slaying sacred cows is my bread and butter so I stuck around despite the momentary ugliness.      

But we've all learned, grown, and benefitted tons thanks to those same folks.  Today Connie ownership is, or at least can be, better than ever thanks to folks who keep working on the problems we encounter with the ol' girl.

[JDM]

Well said Mr Rev.

[Benjamin]

OP, here.  Not to be cheeky but



But I agree, COG is magical.  If we all had the same opinion we wouldn't need a forum we could just list what to do and treat that as gospel.  But we dont.

From reading all the responses, I am going to try and keep Wilhelmina going by changing my habits and not the bike. Bump the starter slowly.  Being cognizant of the problem is really what I ought to be doing.  I'd love overflows or manual petcock but cant afford it right now.  Someone will say that that is no excuse but it is my excuse.  I have a brand new OEM petcock and I think a good examination every 3000-6000 miles is a good practice as well.  That and I don't have a garage - I supposed I wouldn't store the bike in the garage if I thought it would blow up.

Thanks a lot for the replies!

 

- Beej