Author Topic: How come we don't all install in-line fuel valves to block hydolock?  (Read 45355 times)

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Online MAN OF BLUES

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Re: How come we don't all install in-line fuel valves to block hydolock?
« Reply #225 on: August 03, 2017, 10:31:11 pm »
Lets get back on topic gents.

No problem.
The topic, and some of this commentary are somewhat relevant, when suggestions are made, to utilize a part, that by everything I have seen places the liability and outcome upon the user.

I'm done with it.
Ride safe.

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Offline Wizeguy

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Re: How come we don't all install in-line fuel valves to block hydolock?
« Reply #226 on: August 04, 2017, 02:12:37 pm »
????   Wow, I just don't get the push-back.  Keep the discussion going, I am one that is following with great interest!
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Offline Mettler1

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Re: How come we don't all install in-line fuel valves to block hydolock?
« Reply #227 on: August 04, 2017, 02:49:33 pm »
  I'm really happy with my fuel system and it works. But give credit to those that want build a "better" widget. If their widget doesn't work they fail they lose but gain knowledge but IF they succeed we win.  Have at it guys!!  :great:
 
    I might add that if they fail to turn off the fuel valve and they DON"T have over flow tubes on the carbs and a float valve is stuck open(or left open) the gas can continue to flow into a cyl. Hit the starter and hydrolock  the cyl resulting in a bent rod!! The engine is toast! >:( At the very least get overflow tubes on the carbs!!
« Last Edit: August 04, 2017, 05:31:05 pm by Mettler1 »
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Offline m in sc

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Re: How come we don't all install in-line fuel valves to block hydolock?
« Reply #228 on: August 04, 2017, 03:15:13 pm »
as a follow up to my manual 90 degree valve, took it to Charlotte last night, all highway doing 85 most of the way. on the way back hit a back road, took it up to over 100m/h for 2 miles plus on hwy 21..... no fuel starving issues.  e-bay link here:  http://r.ebay.com/ksxMvn

Offline Harry Martin

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Re: How come we don't all install in-line fuel valves to block hydolock?
« Reply #229 on: August 04, 2017, 05:17:15 pm »
as a follow up to my manual 90 degree valve, took it to Charlotte last night, all highway doing 85 most of the way. on the way back hit a back road, took it up to over 100m/h for 2 miles plus on hwy 21..... no fuel starving issues.  e-bay link here:  http://r.ebay.com/ksxMvn


I would think there would not be any fuel starvation.
Our current C10 Petcocks have 1/4" internal diameter plumbing.  ;)
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Offline m in sc

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Re: How come we don't all install in-line fuel valves to block hydolock?
« Reply #230 on: August 04, 2017, 05:53:17 pm »
as a follow up to my manual 90 degree valve, took it to Charlotte last night, all highway doing 85 most of the way. on the way back hit a back road, took it up to over 100m/h for 2 miles plus on hwy 21..... no fuel starving issues.  e-bay link here:  http://r.ebay.com/ksxMvn


I would think there would not be any fuel starvation.
Our current C10 Petcocks have 1/4" internal diameter plumbing.  ;)


true. however not all aftermarket valves do.. that one i linked does. :)

Offline Zorlac

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Re: How come we don't all install in-line fuel valves to block hydolock?
« Reply #231 on: August 05, 2017, 01:38:10 am »
    I might add that if they fail to turn off the fuel valve and they DON"T have over flow tubes on the carbs and a float valve is stuck open(or left open) the gas can continue to flow into a cyl. Hit the starter and hydrolock  the cyl resulting in a bent rod!! The engine is toast! >:( At the very least get overflow tubes on the carbs!!
What if I wired the fuel solenoid to the ignition power?  ::)
You might want to reiterate that in case someone was sleeping in the back.
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Offline JDM

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Re: How come we don't all install in-line fuel valves to block hydolock?
« Reply #232 on: August 05, 2017, 10:22:09 am »
    I might add that if they fail to turn off the fuel valve and they DON"T have over flow tubes on the carbs and a float valve is stuck open(or left open) the gas can continue to flow into a cyl. Hit the starter and hydrolock  the cyl resulting in a bent rod!! The engine is toast! >:( At the very least get overflow tubes on the carbs!!
What if I wired the fuel solenoid to the ignition power?  ::)
You might want to reiterate that in case someone was sleeping in the back.

The hot wire to the coil would be good. That way all you would need to do is turn off the key, and not pull the battery.
   

Offline connie_rider

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Re: How come we don't all install in-line fuel valves to block hydolock?
« Reply #233 on: August 05, 2017, 02:58:22 pm »
All, I got back from my trip this morning.
See you've been doing a lot of discussing.
  Some got a little heated, but at least you were discussing idea's.

  Everyone keep an open mind.
   Why don't we agree to disagree, and keep discussing.
   Remember; Crazy idea's have become some of the best fixes for the C-10.
     (For instance, restricting airflow to make the bike run better)

I'm VERY comfortable that Overflow tubes Steve installed will prevent hydrolock.  :great:

In my case, all I want to do is assure that the petcock can't leak gas when I store the bike in the garage.
An inline valve would do what I want, but a inline Solenoid valve would make it Au-to-ma-tic... (Cool).
In both cases, fuel flow is my main concern.

Ride safe, Ted
« Last Edit: August 05, 2017, 06:21:50 pm by connie_rider »
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Offline connie_rider

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Re: How come we don't all install in-line fuel valves to block hydolock?
« Reply #234 on: August 05, 2017, 03:19:54 pm »
Sorry, can't help myself. Want to add a little..

Heck, (ya'll will all agree) when someone tells us,, "that can't work",,,
          It makes us "more" determined to make it work.

Steve gave us a absolute way to save the bikes from Hydrolock. (THANK YOU,, Steve)
Let's keep discussing a way to prevent fuel leakage to the carbs.

M in SC. I need a clarification.
 Harry said that the C-19 Petcock "internal" piping is 1/4". (It has 5/16" O.D. nipples I think).
 Your 1/4 Nippled valve can't have a 1/4" O.D. hole thru the (1/4" O.D.) nipples. {EZ boys}
 Please measure the I.D. size of the hole.

NOTE: A simple way to check for too much restriction in the C-10 is simple.
You don't have to do 100 mph runs to check the flow.
{Safer way} Open the valve only a little and see if you can make the bike starve for gas during a quick WOT accell.
If it doesn't cause a problem, close it a little and repeat.
When it becomes a problem, go home and do a flow test.
The number you get would be a baseline...

M.O.B. you made a point that the solenoid isn't properly certified.
I agree with you, but we've been modifying and installing parts on the C-10 for years that were not made for it.
ie; If it works,  (we don't need no stinkin' certification)
You have more engineering back ground than most of us, help us find a simple solution.

JDM/others, on the Solenoid valve, is there any way to check flow?
If m in SC comes up with a base number, we could use it for a comparison,.

Ride safe, Ted

PS: Lets go back to the Tank venting discussion from Steve/JDM.
      Many bikes are running with valves or filters in the lines and are not having flow issues.
      Others bikes won't accept any (valve/filter) restriction.
       Maybe; The tanks vents (which are as old as the petcocks) will end up being the Root Cause of the flow problems, "and" petcock failure's..
                      :confuse:   
« Last Edit: August 05, 2017, 04:21:53 pm by connie_rider »
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Offline connie_rider

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Re: How come we don't all install in-line fuel valves to block hydolock?
« Reply #235 on: August 05, 2017, 04:14:36 pm »
I just saw this on another discussion.
  I'm posting it here because it sums up my thoughts exactly.
     Mucho thanks to the writer's...

1) Question everything.
Everything is a learning opportunity.
If someone tells you something in a subject you're knowledgeable about, they should be able to be scrutinized to see if they're onto something or not.
We can all learn from each other, too, but we should stay in our own lanes when it comes to giving advise.
And as far as someone who thinks out of the box, well it shouldn't be arbitrarily or summarily dismissed as illogical ramblings, because discovery starts with questioning everything and thinking outside the box.

2) I always encourage experimentation tho, and if its free... do it, and see what results..

Ride safe, Ted
« Last Edit: August 05, 2017, 06:15:14 pm by connie_rider »
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Offline Daytona_Mike

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Re: How come we don't all install in-line fuel valves to block hydolock?
« Reply #236 on: August 05, 2017, 04:43:14 pm »
Just a couple of things to add.
 Fuel flow testing  to see if the additional valves and filters  has any affect   has to be done with an almost empty tank because a full tank has higher pressure.
If you drive down the road under WOT at over a hundred  with half a tank of fuel you are not testing properly. Do you testing with  near or low fuel in the tank
Mine ran out of fuel even faster when I tried an electric valve   because my engine  is highly  modified and dyno's  over 100hp so it eats fuel much faster than a stock engine.
Another thing to ponder:  OEM petcocks fail with a drip or maybe at most a slight dribble so you have to wait a long time for a failed OEM petcock and a leaky float valve to fill a cylinder and cause hydrolock.
A manual petcock flows full force wide open  from the second it is turned on and with a leaky float valve takes 3 seconds to fill a cylinder and cause hydrolock.

This is why a manual petcock is far more dangerous than a failed OEM when you dont have OverFLow tubes.

Just get overflow tubes- then you will know if you have a leaky float valve. It wont matter if you have extra filters or electric valves or a manual petcock.
 Those things cannot tell you your float valves are leaking.
« Last Edit: August 05, 2017, 04:50:43 pm by Daytona_Mike »
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Offline WillyP

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Re: How come we don't all install in-line fuel valves to block hydolock?
« Reply #237 on: August 05, 2017, 09:27:53 pm »
Another thing to consider is that the electric solenoid valve and the stock vacuum petcock use basically the same mechanism to stop fuel from flowing when turned off. That is, a rubber needle pressed against a seat by a spring. And so any bit of rust or trash holding open the vacuum petcock is just as likely to hold open an electric solenoid valve. So maybe it's a stronger spring in the electric version, but is it strong enough to crush a rust flake?

Most aftermarket manual petcocks (well, every one I've seen), by contrast generally operate as a ball or barrel valve. You turn a cylinder inside another cylinder, and when the holes line up, fuel flows. and any rust that would get lodged in it is forced into the barrel, or the bore it turns in, and causes scoring or wear. Eventually this could lead to a leaking valve.

The only true solution is overflow tubes, good maintenance of whatever fuel shutoff device you choose, and keeping the tank as clean as possible.
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Offline Harry Martin

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Re: How come we don't all install in-line fuel valves to block hydolock?
« Reply #238 on: August 05, 2017, 11:19:45 pm »
Another thing to consider is that the electric solenoid valve and the stock vacuum petcock use basically the same mechanism to stop fuel from flowing when turned off. That is, a rubber needle pressed against a seat by a spring. And so any bit of rust or trash holding open the vacuum petcock is just as likely to hold open an electric solenoid valve. So maybe it's a stronger spring in the electric version, but is it strong enough to crush a rust flake?

Most aftermarket manual petcocks (well, every one I've seen), by contrast generally operate as a ball or barrel valve. You turn a cylinder inside another cylinder, and when the holes line up, fuel flows. and any rust that would get lodged in it is forced into the barrel, or the bore it turns in, and causes scoring or wear. Eventually this could lead to a leaking valve.

The only true solution is overflow tubes, good maintenance of whatever fuel shutoff device you choose, and keeping the tank as clean as possible.


Your logic extends to the vacuum shut off valve. Same possible failure mode.
There's just no winning, is there? At some point, you have to do maintenance and install overflow tubes.

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Offline Zorlac

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Re: How come we don't all install in-line fuel valves to block hydolock?
« Reply #239 on: August 06, 2017, 12:03:07 am »
Maybe we need to start a new thread on just the solenoid valve itself and all posts that mention "overflow tubes" get deleted?
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Offline Rev Ryder

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Re: How come we don't all install in-line fuel valves to block hydolock?
« Reply #240 on: August 06, 2017, 01:31:31 am »
Just install EFI and be done. Nothing leaks on the floor. Nothing leaks in the engine.  The only leak is the money from your bank account.   ;)
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Offline WillyP

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Re: How come we don't all install in-line fuel valves to block hydolock?
« Reply #241 on: August 06, 2017, 11:04:48 am »
Don't forget the turbo. Did you ever solve the issue with the rubber intake bootie thingies?
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Offline Rev Ryder

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Re: How come we don't all install in-line fuel valves to block hydolock?
« Reply #242 on: August 07, 2017, 02:16:17 am »
Don't forget the turbo. Did you ever solve the issue with the rubber intake bootie thingies?
Yes I did with some silicone turbo hose adapters.  But that bike hasn't been ridden in a long time.  It's sitting amongst company in the store room.  The current bike is a totally different setup using O-rings and aluminum plate.
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Offline Mcfly

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Re: How come we don't all install in-line fuel valves to block hydolock?
« Reply #243 on: August 07, 2017, 09:42:36 pm »
Just install EFI and be done. Nothing leaks on the floor. Nothing leaks in the engine.  The only leak is the money from your bank account.   ;)

That's a big leak...   ;)
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Offline Zorlac

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Re: How come we don't all install in-line fuel valves to block hydolock?
« Reply #244 on: August 07, 2017, 11:44:00 pm »
9yrs & still ticking.
The valve, two wires, and you're good to go.
The paper filter didn't work out so that's not there anymore but I am running a NAPA 3006 up near the tank.


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Offline Rev Ryder

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Re: How come we don't all install in-line fuel valves to block hydolock?
« Reply #245 on: August 08, 2017, 04:36:24 am »
Just install EFI and be done. Nothing leaks on the floor. Nothing leaks in the engine.  The only leak is the money from your bank account.   ;)

That's a big leak...   ;)
Yeah, but I had a small balance so it drained quickly.   :nananana:
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Offline JDM

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Re: How come we don't all install in-line fuel valves to block hydolock?
« Reply #246 on: August 08, 2017, 11:53:47 am »
9yrs & still ticking.
The valve, two wires, and you're good to go.
The paper filter didn't work out so that's not there anymore but I am running a NAPA 3006 up near the tank.

Zorlac, has it only been 9 yrs that you have been running the solenoid valve? If that is the case, I have only been screwing with the valves for about 10 yrs. Maybe I am not as hard headed as I thought. I was thinking I had been farting with the solenoid valve for about 15yrs. It is hell getting old and set in your ways. OH WELL what were we talking about?
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Offline m in sc

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Re: How come we don't all install in-line fuel valves to block hydolock?
« Reply #247 on: August 08, 2017, 05:18:41 pm »
Quote
M in SC. I need a clarification.
 Harry said that the C-19 Petcock "internal" piping is 1/4". (It has 5/16" O.D. nipples I think).
 Your 1/4 Nippled valve can't have a 1/4" O.D. hole thru the (1/4" O.D.) nipples. {EZ boys}
 Please measure the I.D. size of the hole.

true. however full port doesn't nec mean 1/4" id. it means the size for the id is maintained all the way thru the valve, doesn't reduce at the ball. the id is 0.19.. yields a flow area of 0.0284 sq in .

the requirement for the motor, assuming there are 2.5mm id needle seats is 2.5 mm ( .0984" sq in area is .0076 x 4 = .0304 total max flow area). That's assuming the motor is using all the flow thru the needle seat. and that's some huge main jets to do this..!! so unless the motor is running at over 90% of what all 4 needle seats will flow at the same time..... which isn't the case.... it wont starve with that valve.  mine sure doesn't.

Like said, its a low tech cheap easy-to-do fix and alternative. 

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Re: How come we don't all install in-line fuel valves to block hydolock?
« Reply #248 on: August 08, 2017, 06:44:20 pm »
Sooooo,
Assuming the actual fitting has barbs on the inlet/outlet of 1/4" for the hose, and the wall thickness thru that barbed section is let's use .045", even tho it looks pretty thick...in the photo. The THAT resulting I.D. is now the restriction.. both on inlet, and outlet...
And that resulting area works out to be, with a .160" diameter, or .080" radius.... .0201 sq in....
Which if used with your estimate on the needle valve seats areas total... seems to be a flow of about 66%.

Whatever works tho. We can toss facts and figures around, and as long as it works for someone, its fine. :great:

I'm all confused now, I can't remember what the fuel line I.d. really is... :rotflmao:

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Offline m in sc

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Re: How come we don't all install in-line fuel valves to block hydolock?
« Reply #249 on: August 08, 2017, 07:00:13 pm »
the id is 0.19" , i did actually measure it. yes, it works. i already did the math worst case situation above. The reality of the max requirement is  = or > than the flow capacity of ( the main and pilot jets per carb, which will be less than the float needle seat per carb) x4. That's just the way it works on a gravity feed system. even if it had a one inch feed pipe ahead of it.  :rotflmao: