Author Topic: Individual Filters on a C10  (Read 508 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline connieklr

  • Street Cruiser
  • ****
  • Posts: 672
  • AREA: Northeast Area
  • COG#: 1608
  • Membership Level: Active
Individual Filters on a C10
« on: December 02, 2017, 07:55:17 pm »
Going over my '95 prior to slipping (okay, forcing) the carbs back in, and noticed that my air box has that split seam apparently caused by too thick a gasket on the K&N Filter. After removing and cleaning it up thoroughly in my parts cleaner (with new solvent as of this morning - how convenient), mine isn't leaking yet because no solvent is passing through the seam separation. I'll thin the filter gasket out and patch it back up, but was curious if anyone has had a successful install, and jetting, after installing individual (K&N or otherwise) filters?

I can remember way back when COGger, Doug Freeman, tried that, and after fooling around with the bike for over a year he put the original air box back on. I saw him at a rally somewhere and he said that he just wasn't able to get the bike to perform cleanly to his satisfaction, so he gave up out of frustration. Doug was a good tuner, so for him to throw in the towel makes me wonder if anyone else has given it a whack and is happy with the results.

Just looking at options, hence the question.
« Last Edit: December 03, 2017, 07:05:41 pm by connieklr »
________________
Guy Young
COG #1608
COG Life Member
Semi-Civilian
GB Young Services, LLC

Offline SteveJ.

  • I Need a Life
  • ******
  • Posts: 5247
  • AREA: Southeast Area
  • COG#: 5603
  • Membership Level: Asst. Area Director
Re: Individual Filters on a C10
« Reply #1 on: December 02, 2017, 08:10:19 pm »
Steve at Shoodaben has a video addressing the air box split. Everything I've also heard is that the singles pretty much suck, in a bad way, not just air.
Yeah, if you want true ram air tuning, you better be willing to ram some air! (SiSF)
Steve J  Tavares, FL, one of the Floriduh Steves
'15 Versys650LT, '98 KLR650, (back home), '99 C-10, 234k miles sold
IBA 19221

Offline connieklr

  • Street Cruiser
  • ****
  • Posts: 672
  • AREA: Northeast Area
  • COG#: 1608
  • Membership Level: Active
Re: Individual Filters on a C10
« Reply #2 on: December 02, 2017, 09:18:58 pm »
Steve at Shoodaben has a video addressing the air box split. Everything I've also heard is that the singles pretty much suck, in a bad way, not just air.

Thanky.

Seen the video, and even tho' mine isn't leaking yet, I have some light weight flashing I can cut a repair strip out of to reinforce the thing.

Yeah, that's pretty much what I've heard over the years regarding individual filters. Too bad, as it would really clean up things and make carb R&R a piece of cake. I am going to take this opportunity to just stick the carbs in place and get the bike running long enough so I can see if I created any (major) leaks after I pulled the valve cover and put it back on.

Thank you again.
________________
Guy Young
COG #1608
COG Life Member
Semi-Civilian
GB Young Services, LLC

Offline Ranger Jim

  • Iron Butt
  • *****
  • Posts: 3210
  • AREA: Southeast Area
  • COG#: 6720
  • Membership Level: Asst. Area Director
Re: Individual Filters on a C10
« Reply #3 on: December 02, 2017, 10:41:02 pm »
I would think the complexity of trying to tune/balance 4 carbs across the RPM range would be daunting. You may want to look into SISF's 2 Minute Mod.
JIM CULP
OtP Jr. Slave Laborer (Safety)

No one is a TOTAL failure; they can always be used as a bad example.

Offline SteveJ.

  • I Need a Life
  • ******
  • Posts: 5247
  • AREA: Southeast Area
  • COG#: 5603
  • Membership Level: Asst. Area Director
Re: Individual Filters on a C10
« Reply #4 on: December 03, 2017, 12:52:41 am »
Steve at Shoodaben has a video addressing the air box split. Everything I've also heard is that the singles pretty much suck, in a bad way, not just air.

Thanky.

Seen the video, and even tho' mine isn't leaking yet, I have some light weight flashing I can cut a repair strip out of to reinforce the thing.

Yeah, that's pretty much what I've heard over the years regarding individual filters. Too bad, as it would really clean up things and make carb R&R a piece of cake. I am going to take this opportunity to just stick the carbs in place and get the bike running long enough so I can see if I created any (major) leaks after I pulled the valve cover and put it back on.

Thank you again.
Yer welcome.  :beerchug:
Yeah, if you want true ram air tuning, you better be willing to ram some air! (SiSF)
Steve J  Tavares, FL, one of the Floriduh Steves
'15 Versys650LT, '98 KLR650, (back home), '99 C-10, 234k miles sold
IBA 19221

Offline JimBob

  • Sport Tourer
  • *****
  • Posts: 2703
  • Woman...WHOAAAA MAN!
  • AREA: Southwest Area
  • COG#: forum
  • Membership Level: Forum Subscriber
Re: Individual Filters on a C10
« Reply #5 on: December 03, 2017, 04:55:33 am »
I’m just an armchair auto engineer, but from decades of my brothers racing/building cars for racing etc, we’ve had MANY conversations about the compromises and solutions in engine design.


The big challenge with any intake system is to provide both high-velocity intake charge at low RPM, while still be able to provide high-VOLUME intake charge for higher RPM.


A smaller diameter (more restrictive) intake will provide the high velocity for low RPM, while a larger diameter can provide more volume.


If you have just a large diameter intake, it will lack air charge velocity at lower RPM, which will in turn reduce the performance of a carb, causing gas to spit and spurt into the cylinder.


Guess what individual filters act like? Large diameter intake, with little restriction. Practically impossible to tune across the RPM range of these engines (perhaps if it had a total range of 2000 rpm it could work). What pod filters would get you (maybe) is max HP at peak RPM - good for drag racing perhaps?


If you’re familiar with V8’s and single/dual plane intakes, it’s a very similar issue. Today’s car engines use variable valve timing and multi-plane variable intakes to manage intake charge velocity.


I’d imagine there’s also some intake charge pulse benefits to the airbox too - but I’ll leave that for one of our resident gurus.

Offline Steve in Sunny Fla

  • Industry Member
  • I Need a Life
  • *
  • Posts: 7364
  • AREA: Southeast Area
  • COG#: 6977
  • Membership Level: Active
Re: Individual Filters on a C10
« Reply #6 on: December 03, 2017, 09:42:30 am »
IMO, the secret of why the 2 minute mod jet kit works as well as it does is that it baffles the airbox and dampens the reversion pulses. After installing the intake block there is enough intake surface area to feed the engine, but it clearly does help the torque and lower rpm power production. Of course the jetting has to be rectified for the top end. Intuitively we would expect this leads to a lack of peak HP, but dyno tests of several engines proved that to not be the case. Steve
C-14 ECU flashing for performance and rideability enhancement
C-10 Carb work , cams, & performance enhancements
 " Modifications for sport-tourers, BY a sport-tourer"
https://sites.google.com/site/shoodabenengineering/home

Offline JimBob

  • Sport Tourer
  • *****
  • Posts: 2703
  • Woman...WHOAAAA MAN!
  • AREA: Southwest Area
  • COG#: forum
  • Membership Level: Forum Subscriber
Re: Individual Filters on a C10
« Reply #7 on: December 03, 2017, 02:31:24 pm »
Of course the jetting has to be rectified for the top end. Intuitively we would expect this leads to a lack of peak HP, but dyno tests of several engines proved that to not be the case. Steve


That’s pretty wild Steve. So Mama Kaw over-jetted it from the get go, even for high-rpm HP? Any thoughts on how that likely came to be (I’m guessing either they threw minimum engineering time at it, or just went with a known-safe config, or a combo of the two)?


Just to gain understanding - if you added your foam block to an unaltered bike (factory jets), wouldn’t it end up running even more rich, so it’s really only useful for re-jetted bikes?

Offline RWulf

  • Crotch Rocket
  • ****
  • Posts: 1525
  • AREA: North Central Area
  • COG#: 7122
  • Membership Level: Active
Re: Individual Filters on a C10
« Reply #8 on: December 03, 2017, 04:00:32 pm »
One way to look at what Steve has done is to  measure the amount of air our engine
used at max RPM. Then calculate the size of intake restriction necessary to maintain
a constant, even air flow into the air box, thur out the RPM range. Doing this keeps any
reversal out of the air box. Done correctly the air in the air box never completely stop
moving and pressure remains, all thou negative, a constant negative. Now we have a
fixed source of air to tune from, that is a lot easier to deal with.

Offline Steve in Sunny Fla

  • Industry Member
  • I Need a Life
  • *
  • Posts: 7364
  • AREA: Southeast Area
  • COG#: 6977
  • Membership Level: Active
Re: Individual Filters on a C10
« Reply #9 on: December 03, 2017, 05:00:56 pm »


Just to gain understanding - if you added your foam block to an unaltered bike (factory jets), wouldn’t it end up running even more rich, so it’s really only useful for re-jetted bikes?

That's correct. I've seen guys post here that they had the 2 minute mod, but they didn't... they thought that blocking the airbox is all there was to it. The jet kit actually has the properly sized jets in it, built on the road with a WB02 sensor in the muffler and dyno proven. Of course that was 10 years ago... how time flies!  :motonoises: Steve
C-14 ECU flashing for performance and rideability enhancement
C-10 Carb work , cams, & performance enhancements
 " Modifications for sport-tourers, BY a sport-tourer"
https://sites.google.com/site/shoodabenengineering/home

Offline Mcfly

  • --2006 Concours--
  • Iron Butt
  • *****
  • Posts: 3538
  • Cruise Control
  • AREA: Southeast Area
  • COG#: 9921
  • Membership Level: Active
Re: Individual Filters on a C10
« Reply #10 on: December 03, 2017, 05:31:32 pm »
I've only seen one person on the forum with the individual filters that 'liked' them.  Just about everyone else I've read about
tries it, and goes back to the air box.  I understand it makes accessing the carbs easier... I get that, but it seems if
you get the carbs done once, the right way, you won't need to pull them often enough to qualify all the work required
to get individual filters dialed in.  You're actually committing, in a way to removing the carbs more often.   :o
It also seems like more work maintaining those cone filters.  There's four of 'em, the current design has one, with just two screws
and a wedge for removal.  The OEM air box also takes air outside the engine area, which is most likely cooler... bonus!  :great:



Performance -- Rear: C14 Shock - Front: Sonic 1.1 w/emulators - SISF Jet Mod & Ex Cam Sprocket - Tokico front brakes
Comfort -- Russell Day Long - Madstad - Cruise Control

Offline connieklr

  • Street Cruiser
  • ****
  • Posts: 672
  • AREA: Northeast Area
  • COG#: 1608
  • Membership Level: Active
Re: Individual Filters on a C10
« Reply #11 on: December 03, 2017, 07:15:01 pm »
IMO, the secret of why the 2 minute mod jet kit works as well as it does is that it baffles the airbox and dampens the reversion pulses. After installing the intake block there is enough intake surface area to feed the engine, but it clearly does help the torque and lower rpm power production. Of course the jetting has to be rectified for the top end. Intuitively we would expect this leads to a lack of peak HP, but dyno tests of several engines proved that to not be the case. Steve

That's kinda funny(?), as many of the mag editors that have tested the Connie over the years have also commented/complained about the lack of low end grunt. Personally, I have never felt that either of mine ('86 and '95) have suffered in that regard. Admittedly, the '86 did have the popular Dynojet kit mod of the day installed, but my '95 is bone stock and it pulls strong (via seat-of-the-pants measurement) all the way through the RPM range where I normally ride. Presently, I have no reason to change anything, but may play with it some point down the road just to see.

________________
Guy Young
COG #1608
COG Life Member
Semi-Civilian
GB Young Services, LLC

Offline Rain Dancer

  • Street Cruiser
  • ****
  • Posts: 694
  • Just Ridin' in the rain......
  • AREA: Northeast Area
  • COG#: 10523
  • Membership Level: Active
Re: Individual Filters on a C10
« Reply #12 on: December 03, 2017, 10:21:42 pm »
IMO, the secret of why the 2 minute mod jet kit works as well as it does is that it baffles the airbox and dampens the reversion pulses. After installing the intake block there is enough intake surface area to feed the engine, but it clearly does help the torque and lower rpm power production. Of course the jetting has to be rectified for the top end. Intuitively we would expect this leads to a lack of peak HP, but dyno tests of several engines proved that to not be the case. Steve

That's kinda funny(?), as many of the mag editors that have tested the Connie over the years have also commented/complained about the lack of low end grunt. Personally, I have never felt that either of mine ('86 and '95) have suffered in that regard. Admittedly, the '86 did have the popular Dynojet kit mod of the day installed, but my '95 is bone stock and it pulls strong (via seat-of-the-pants measurement) all the way through the RPM range where I normally ride. Presently, I have no reason to change anything, but may play with it some point down the road just to see.

I felt the same, until my wife bought me an FJR. THAT had grunt! Now my c10 has SISF's cams and 2 min mod, and I love it. I very seldom run the c10 above 90mph, and most riding is lower rpm's, so those mods made the bike more enjoyable for me. YMMV
"Of course, that's just my opinion, I could be wrong."  Dennis Miller

1997Connie (rip?), 2004 FJR, 1983 xs650, 1980 xs11

Offline Mettler1

  • Iron Butt
  • *****
  • Posts: 3039
  • You want answers? We got answers!!
  • AREA: North Central Area
  • COG#: 1431
  • Membership Level: Active
Re: Individual Filters on a C10
« Reply #13 on: December 03, 2017, 10:58:53 pm »
[

  Now my c10 has SISF's cams and 2 min mod, and I love it. I very seldom run the c10 above 90mph, and most riding is lower rpm's, so those mods made the bike more enjoyable for me. YMMV
  YUP!  Steve's carbs and cams did it for me!!!  :) :)
'94 Concours 115,000 miles-- 7th gear,2MM,KB fork brace,Over flowtubes,Stick coils,Tcro shifter,GPS,SiSF'sTorque cams,SPOOKFAK,block off plates, SS brake & clutch lines,KB risers, FENDA EXTENDA, emulators, SiSF carb Spa, Delkevic exhaust, Murphs' knee savers +grips, etc

Offline Jim Snyder

  • Crotch Rocket
  • ****
  • Posts: 1190
  • The Connie Rocks !!!
  • AREA: South Central Area
  • COG#: 7055
  • Membership Level: Asst. Area Director
Re: Individual Filters on a C10
« Reply #14 on: December 03, 2017, 11:58:05 pm »
Do not do separate filter pods. You will regret it. If you need a good airbox I have one for sale in the for sale section and it comes with a K&N filter and boots. If you get Steve's jet kit I will include an adjustable air intake snout.
"Some days you're the windshield, and some days you're the bug" Get used to it cause thats life !!!

Offline SteveJ.

  • I Need a Life
  • ******
  • Posts: 5247
  • AREA: Southeast Area
  • COG#: 5603
  • Membership Level: Asst. Area Director
Re: Individual Filters on a C10
« Reply #15 on: December 04, 2017, 03:06:28 am »
IMO, the secret of why the 2 minute mod jet kit works as well as it does is that it baffles the airbox and dampens the reversion pulses. After installing the intake block there is enough intake surface area to feed the engine, but it clearly does help the torque and lower rpm power production. Of course the jetting has to be rectified for the top end. Intuitively we would expect this leads to a lack of peak HP, but dyno tests of several engines proved that to not be the case. Steve

That's kinda funny(?), as many of the mag editors that have tested the Connie over the years have also commented/complained about the lack of low end grunt. Personally, I have never felt that either of mine ('86 and '95) have suffered in that regard. Admittedly, the '86 did have the popular Dynojet kit mod of the day installed, but my '95 is bone stock and it pulls strong (via seat-of-the-pants measurement) all the way through the RPM range where I normally ride. Presently, I have no reason to change anything, but may play with it some point down the road just to see.
Guy, you don't know what you are missing out on. The 2mm, especially with the cams and/or cam sprocket, really gets the bike into a different world for low/mid range throttle response and torque. Truly magical stuff.

Not as easy as a re-flash, but hey, the old school is cool. I sold my '99 with 234k miles on it and it is now closing in on a quarter million. Still runs superbly. The torque cams still looked like new at 60k, BTW.
Yeah, if you want true ram air tuning, you better be willing to ram some air! (SiSF)
Steve J  Tavares, FL, one of the Floriduh Steves
'15 Versys650LT, '98 KLR650, (back home), '99 C-10, 234k miles sold
IBA 19221

Offline Mettler1

  • Iron Butt
  • *****
  • Posts: 3039
  • You want answers? We got answers!!
  • AREA: North Central Area
  • COG#: 1431
  • Membership Level: Active
Re: Individual Filters on a C10
« Reply #16 on: December 04, 2017, 04:19:40 am »

   Like SteveJ said, SiSFs cams give you more torque at lower rpm's and a lot more miles between valve adjustments!!
'94 Concours 115,000 miles-- 7th gear,2MM,KB fork brace,Over flowtubes,Stick coils,Tcro shifter,GPS,SiSF'sTorque cams,SPOOKFAK,block off plates, SS brake & clutch lines,KB risers, FENDA EXTENDA, emulators, SiSF carb Spa, Delkevic exhaust, Murphs' knee savers +grips, etc