Author Topic: Winter blend gasoline caused bad blubber, fixed finally  (Read 204 times)

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Offline LeeM

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Winter blend gasoline caused bad blubber, fixed finally
« on: August 19, 2018, 05:40:30 am »
About 2 weeks ago, August 8Th I bought a tank full of Shell gasoline, and I guess the gas was a big slug of "California winter blend". I think when the blend changes sharply, there is a transient swelling of the neoprene. The swelling lasts something like a week. That is long enough to take the bike out of service.

This year, my new work assignment requires a 20 mile 900 foot hill and couple of miles of 75 miles per hour riding. The first ride on the first day at the new assignment , while rolling 75 mph up a moderate rise, the bike changed tone and it suddenly felt like it was running on 3 cylinders.

A few years ago I had the bike carburetors plug closed when I added a tankful of "California summer blend.". I had the bike towed home, costing $100.  This month's "three cylinder running" I believe was something swelling up the neoprene needle valves.  The first thing I tried  this year on the motorcycle was I refilled the gas tank and added a double strength dose of TCW3 two stroke watercraft oil. The carburetor expert Steve in Sunny Florida recommends this additive. I gather because it emulsifies small amounts of water  and stops corrosion of the float bowls. The result of 4 days sitting with extra TCW3 oil in the gasoline is the engine still blubbers over 3000 rpm.

Today, I tried adding 8 ounces (1/2 bottle) of Chevron Techron fuel injector cleaner. A short test ride of 2 miles still showed blubbering over 3000 rpm.

I put the bike on the center stand and drained each carburetor float bowl into a white plastic bowl and I looked for crud and water. Using the prime setting on the fuel valve, I ran about 2 ounces of gasoline through each float bowl. In the first left side of the bike float bowl I got a drop of water the size of a match head. In all four float bowls I got a pinhead of black debris, in each case, the debris was smaller than the fuel valve inlet screen mesh.

The result was: The bike is now running like it should. The return to normal was first the draining and flushing of the float bowls. Second part of the fix was adding Techron Fuel Injector cleaner.  (which lists petroleum distillate as the main ingredient. It does not have any alcohol listed in the ingredients.)

Here are the tool details: The bowl drain screw is 3mm hex, you need a 3mm hex Allen wrench. To turn the inner hex screws I used  a 7/64 Tee handle Allen wrench.  The bowl drain tip is ..249" and 1/4 vinyl tubing will not work.  I used a 2.5 foot long piece of .200" id stretchy vinyl  suction hose that I also use for bleeding brakes. Re-install the hex screws tight because if one leaks you may be in for an engine or a whole garage fuel fire.  A magna visor. a bright LED headlamp, and long nose pliers helped see the nuts and push the hose on the bowl drain tip.

Offline Pbfoot

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Re: Winter blend gasoline caused bad blubber, fixed finally
« Reply #1 on: August 19, 2018, 01:50:43 pm »
Glad you got it fixed. The petcock screen is known to warp where it connects to the base and allow debris to enter the carbs. Why I run a 90 degree filter.
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Offline MAN OF BLUES

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Re: Winter blend gasoline caused bad blubber, fixed finally
« Reply #2 on: August 19, 2018, 10:28:24 pm »
About 2 weeks ago, August 8Th I bought a tank full of Shell gasoline, and I guess the gas was a big slug of "California winter blend". I think when the blend changes sharply, there is a transient swelling of the neoprene. The swelling lasts something like a week. That is long enough to take the bike out of service.

This year, my new work assignment requires a 20 mile 900 foot hill and couple of miles of 75 miles per hour riding. The first ride on the first day at the new assignment , while rolling 75 mph up a moderate rise, the bike changed tone and it suddenly felt like it was running on 3 cylinders.

A few years ago I had the bike carburetors plug closed when I added a tankful of "California summer blend.". I had the bike towed home, costing $100.  This month's "three cylinder running" I believe was something swelling up the neoprene needle valves.  The first thing I tried  this year on the motorcycle was I refilled the gas tank and added a double strength dose of TCW3 two stroke watercraft oil. The carburetor expert Steve in Sunny Florida recommends this additive. I gather because it emulsifies small amounts of water  and stops corrosion of the float bowls. The result of 4 days sitting with extra TCW3 oil in the gasoline is the engine still blubbers over 3000 rpm.

Today, I tried adding 8 ounces (1/2 bottle) of Chevron Techron fuel injector cleaner. A short test ride of 2 miles still showed blubbering over 3000 rpm.

I put the bike on the center stand and drained each carburetor float bowl into a white plastic bowl and I looked for crud and water. Using the prime setting on the fuel valve, I ran about 2 ounces of gasoline through each float bowl. In the first left side of the bike float bowl I got a drop of water the size of a match head. In all four float bowls I got a pinhead of black debris, in each case, the debris was smaller than the fuel valve inlet screen mesh.

The result was: The bike is now running like it should. The return to normal was first the draining and flushing of the float bowls. Second part of the fix was adding Techron Fuel Injector cleaner.  (which lists petroleum distillate as the main ingredient. It does not have any alcohol listed in the ingredients.)

Here are the tool details: The bowl drain screw is 3mm hex, you need a 3mm hex Allen wrench. To turn the inner hex screws I used  a 7/64 Tee handle Allen wrench.  The bowl drain tip is ..249" and 1/4 vinyl tubing will not work.  I used a 2.5 foot long piece of .200" id stretchy vinyl  suction hose that I also use for bleeding brakes. Re-install the hex screws tight because if one leaks you may be in for an engine or a whole garage fuel fire.  A magna visor. a bright LED headlamp, and long nose pliers helped see the nuts and push the hose on the bowl drain tip.

well, first off, glad you "fixed" it... kinda.

now, I'll comment, and comment only.
you bought gas, and blamed it on "winter blend", when I all possibility you got a good "slug" of water...
the alcohol in the blend isn't the major culprit, nor does it immediately 'swell' the float needle tip..., so what ever you put in as fuel, was the issue... then, you didn't do any draining until later... and even when you did do some inspection by draining some 'in a 'white bowl' in lieu of a clear glass container, after adding other stuff, you likely missed the water, (you say you saw some, small, but in reality you would see more in a glass jar than a white bowl.)
so, then you added TCW3 because you thought you understood it's purpose... which was wrong...
"it emulsifies small amounts of water  and stops corrosion of the float bowls", is not what it is about, he recommended it's use, for long term storage, so when fuel evaporates, the remaining moisture does not corrode the aluminum, the oily coating in the bowls reduces the chance of water droplets sitting in air, creating corrosion... it doesn't emulsify, or remove water...
Then you added Techron, (good stuff, but please don't add 3 different chemical combos, simultaneously, and try to tell which one worked...), and finally did your drain test, 2 oz from each bowl... and you found water... a drop. Working backwards, thats 64 drops per gallon, or 384 drops in 6 gallons roughly... (considering half the water actually in your fuel, may have been not measurable, as it was sitting on the opposite side of the tank, at the bottom, and untouched.)
you got gas that was laden with water, the only cure, is to completely drain it, remove the tank, wipe the inside bottom corners where it actually hides (and sits, below the place fuel actually come out of the petcock), and fill the tank with fresh, clean fuel, from a trusted source, from a brand new container, and add some IsoHeet, or HEET, gas dryer...
but wait... It's made from alcohol...
yes, it is, but it is formulated to actually BIND water droplets into suspension, allowing the mixture to flow and burn without coalescing again into 'globules'.... mind you, you must burn all this fuel up, in a short period of time (within a week), simply pouring it in will do nothing, and it requires the fuel to be used, to remove the moisture laden fuel.

The alcohol content of current fuel, does not make it totally a cause for issues, especially if you fill it, and ride it, and fill it, and ride it... it doesn't swell the float needles... if that was the case, all of us here in the northeast, would be having major issues... we simply don't...
as for the 'swelling' lasting a 'week or two'... it ain't like 'gout' , where you ankles swell, and then return to normal, when the booze/alcohol isn't present.. once the rubber swells, it never returns to it's normal state.
the only thing I can say destroys float needle tips, the SEAFOM, which everyone to want to pour in, and let it sit... and the results (SISF will agree) are ruined float needle tips.
« Last Edit: August 19, 2018, 10:46:54 pm by MAN OF BLUES »

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Offline jettawreck

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Re: Winter blend gasoline caused bad blubber, fixed finally
« Reply #3 on: August 19, 2018, 11:40:08 pm »
TCWlll two stroke oil (whether it's for watercraft or not) will not absorb or dissipate any water in fuel. It's simply a relatively common base grade spec two stroke oil. The benefit(s) of adding small dose ratios as sisf recommends are for different reason(s).
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Offline DC Concours

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Re: Winter blend gasoline caused bad blubber, fixed finally
« Reply #4 on: Yesterday at 03:03:48 pm »
I think it was just bad gas (water is usually it).

Just discard the old gas or use it in your mower/car/truck if you like.

Put fresh gas and the bike should be fine. No need to stress so much if you know the gas was the issue in the first place. I also have an inline filter to catch the gunk missed by petcock filter.




Offline Bud

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Re: Winter blend gasoline caused bad blubber, fixed finally
« Reply #5 on: Yesterday at 04:09:25 pm »
Quote
About 2 weeks ago, August 8Th I bought a tank full of Shell gasoline, and I guess the gas was a big slug of "California winter blend". I think when the blend changes sharply, there is a transient swelling of the neoprene. The swelling lasts something like a week. That is long enough to take the bike out of service.
I agree that it was probably water.  I can't imagine that it would be possible to get some winter blend fuel in August.  A retailer that still has winter blend fuel in august won't be around long.

Offline Steve in Sunny Fla

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Re: Winter blend gasoline caused bad blubber, fixed finally
« Reply #6 on: Yesterday at 07:47:24 pm »

well, first off, glad you "fixed" it... kinda.

now, I'll comment, and comment only.
you bought gas, and blamed it on "winter blend", when I all possibility you got a good "slug" of water...
the alcohol in the blend isn't the major culprit, nor does it immediately 'swell' the float needle tip..., so what ever you put in as fuel, was the issue... then, you didn't do any draining until later... and even when you did do some inspection by draining some 'in a 'white bowl' in lieu of a clear glass container, after adding other stuff, you likely missed the water, (you say you saw some, small, but in reality you would see more in a glass jar than a white bowl.)
so, then you added TCW3 because you thought you understood it's purpose... which was wrong...
"it emulsifies small amounts of water  and stops corrosion of the float bowls", is not what it is about, he recommended it's use, for long term storage, so when fuel evaporates, the remaining moisture does not corrode the aluminum, the oily coating in the bowls reduces the chance of water droplets sitting in air, creating corrosion... it doesn't emulsify, or remove water...
Then you added Techron, (good stuff, but please don't add 3 different chemical combos, simultaneously, and try to tell which one worked...), and finally did your drain test, 2 oz from each bowl... and you found water... a drop. Working backwards, thats 64 drops per gallon, or 384 drops in 6 gallons roughly... (considering half the water actually in your fuel, may have been not measurable, as it was sitting on the opposite side of the tank, at the bottom, and untouched.)
you got gas that was laden with water, the only cure, is to completely drain it, remove the tank, wipe the inside bottom corners where it actually hides (and sits, below the place fuel actually come out of the petcock), and fill the tank with fresh, clean fuel, from a trusted source, from a brand new container, and add some IsoHeet, or HEET, gas dryer...
but wait... It's made from alcohol...
yes, it is, but it is formulated to actually BIND water droplets into suspension, allowing the mixture to flow and burn without coalescing again into 'globules'.... mind you, you must burn all this fuel up, in a short period of time (within a week), simply pouring it in will do nothing, and it requires the fuel to be used, to remove the moisture laden fuel.

The alcohol content of current fuel, does not make it totally a cause for issues, especially if you fill it, and ride it, and fill it, and ride it... it doesn't swell the float needles... if that was the case, all of us here in the northeast, would be having major issues... we simply don't...
as for the 'swelling' lasting a 'week or two'... it ain't like 'gout' , where you ankles swell, and then return to normal, when the booze/alcohol isn't present.. once the rubber swells, it never returns to it's normal state.
the only thing I can say destroys float needle tips, the SEAFOM, which everyone to want to pour in, and let it sit... and the results (SISF will agree) are ruined float needle tips.

  THIS ^^^
  The purpose of TCW3 is primarily to leave an oily film in the carbs, which will prevent the "skin" from dried gas that blocks the tiny pilot jet holes. When new fuel is introduced, the oily film just dissolves back into the fuel, and the pilot jet and other orifices flow properly.

  Steve
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Offline Mettler1

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Re: Winter blend gasoline caused bad blubber, fixed finally
« Reply #7 on: Yesterday at 09:58:13 pm »
  What SiSF said!! 
 https://www.walmart.com/ip/Super-Tech-TC-W3-Outboard-2-Cycle-Oil-1-Gallon/16795065

   A gallon last a long time. I use an ounce or 2 per tank full. Carry a small bottle handy of it on my C10 fairing pocket. Sent my carbs to Steve a few yrs ago.
They came back better than new!! 
« Last Edit: Yesterday at 10:07:35 pm by Mettler1 »
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Offline Stasch

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Re: Winter blend gasoline caused bad blubber, fixed finally
« Reply #8 on: Yesterday at 10:36:56 pm »
Quote
Re-install the hex screws tight because if one leaks you may be in for an engine or a whole garage fuel fire.

But not crazy tight y'all - I've seen people crack their float bowls reefing on these the bowl drain screws.
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Offline MAN OF BLUES

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Re: Winter blend gasoline caused bad blubber, fixed finally
« Reply #9 on: Today at 01:09:31 am »
Quote
Re-install the hex screws tight because if one leaks you may be in for an engine or a whole garage fuel fire.

But not crazy tight y'all - I've seen people crack their float bowls reefing on these the bowl drain screws.

yeah, and I'm not to crazy about working on bikes where someone used a SAE 'fraction wrench' on something that has a specific "metric size"... and cobbldix's the hexes on the fastener/screw/whatever......
 ::) ::) ::) >:(
but it like a "2 finger" only grip on the wrench to tighten the screw.. I do agree... :-[ :-[

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