Author Topic: Missfire during acceleration at all RPM’s  (Read 1344 times)

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Offline MAN OF BLUES

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Re: Missfire during acceleration at all RPM’s
« Reply #25 on: June 27, 2018, 04:35:32 pm »
Chow, Before you buy used coils ( that may have bad wires too), trim the ends of your wires and clean the contacts at the plug, and/or change out your wires.

I fought a similar problem. My bike would sometimes run good, sometimes bad. 
It gave indications of fuel starvation or carb problems. All this happened after I did some maintenance that involved removing and reinstalling the coils..
I went thru the carbs, then had Steve do them, did valve adjust, new petcock, checked timing, checked my wiring, adjusted 2 min jett kit (foam) repeatedly, etc etc.

Drove me and everyone else crazy.
Eventually Steve figured it out and had us replace the wires and caps (available from Murph)
Problem solved.

I am not saying this will solve the problem. Your bike may have other problems.
MOB seems to think you have valve adjust problems?
It is just an inexpensive way to rule the wires/caps out.


Ride safe, Ted

see, this is what I get all gurgly about...
I never said I thought he had valve issues...
my direct commentary was related to "why would you mess with carbs, and hope you got it right, WHEN YOU CAN'T SYNCH THEM unless you know the valve adjustments were made prior..."

big difference... you read something I didn't say...

I spent quite a while running thru this wire/coil/etc thing, to explain readings with an OHM meter... then, I get this..

I tested the leads just for continuity. And all four made the light beep so i was happy with that. .......
.... so I’ll try to find some coil packs through a salvage yard or something and buy new ignition leads. I’ll keep everyone updated as to what the problem was thanks.

so, at least the leads WERE trimmed, and things improved, but the secondary side of the coil, between both plug wires, with caps removed, was not...
what the..?
I can only direct folks to check stuff, I can't do it for them over the keyboard and see the results on my meter... continuity? seriously? you checked primary side, and even tried to sense volts..(why, I have no idea..), why not follow thru, ok? OHM out the secondary, plug wires between themselves, without plug caps.
and, before buying coils, the wires themselves can be replaced alone, you can purchase a set of ACCELL silicone 7mm tinned wire core wires, at most parts stores, buy the smallest cheapest set of the Yellow ones, 7mm, Silicone, wire core, (do NOT buy carbon core, they will not work..) and cut them to fit... you can get 3 sets out of a package.

I'm done for now.

this is all about a total of 10 minutes of diagnosis time that both Steve, and I would do, before moving on.. once these things are found NOT to be an issue, other stuff can be examined... and neither of us would raise an eyebrow about the primary side being .3 ohms above the 'book value'..

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Offline Chow

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Re: Missfire during acceleration at all RPM’s
« Reply #26 on: June 27, 2018, 04:36:59 pm »
I’ll probably start with ignition leads first and go from there. The resistance on the coils are both high so it might be a combination of both. After somewhat fixing my issue for about an hour and you can read it above it’s pretty clear this point is something to do with ignition. At 2000 RPM last night the bike was fire firing so poorly that the bike wouldn’t go above 2000 it seemed like i had a rev limiter on it just wouldn’t even move.

Offline MAN OF BLUES

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Re: Missfire during acceleration at all RPM’s
« Reply #27 on: June 27, 2018, 04:40:36 pm »
There's a 5Kohm resistor inside the plug caps which can be accessed from the plug side of the cap with a regular screwdriver. You could have some corrosion in there not helping your situation. It's also possible the connection from the wire side of the cap to where the resistor is could be compromised so the earlier suggestion of new wires/caps is worthwhile.

Several year ago I bought generic NGK caps from a motorcycle dealer for like $3.50 each and got regular automobile bulk spark wire and made up my own new sparkplug wires. Talk about CHE...FRUGAL.

the resistor is seldom the issue, but corrosion can come into play, removing the resistor (skinny flat blade screwdriver) and cleaning it, and the spring, will check that off the list, but when you check the resitance on the secondary windings of the coil, the important value, the caps are to be removed, and only the wires and coil winding is used for that value..
and yes, wires can be a very frugal choice, you can get a couple sets out of a box of 'pre made' 7mm wires.

Chow, Before you buy used coils ( that may have bad wires too), trim the ends of your wires and clean the contacts at the plug, and/or change out your wires.

I fought a similar problem. My bike would sometimes run good, sometimes bad. 
It gave indications of fuel starvation or carb problems. All this happened after I did some maintenance that involved removing and reinstalling the coils..
I went thru the carbs, then had Steve do them, did valve adjust, new petcock, checked timing, checked my wiring, adjusted 2 min jett kit (foam) repeatedly, etc etc.

Drove me and everyone else crazy.
Eventually Steve figured it out and had us replace the wires and caps (available from Murph)
Problem solved.

I am not saying this will solve the problem. Your bike may have other problems.
MOB seems to think you have valve adjust problems?
It is just an inexpensive way to rule the wires/caps out.


Ride safe, Ted

see, this is what I get all gurgly about...
I never said I thought he had valve issues...
my direct commentary was related to "why would you mess with carbs, and hope you got it right, WHEN YOU CAN'T SYNCH THEM unless you know the valve adjustments were made prior..."

big difference... you read something I didn't say...

I spent quite a while running thru this wire/coil/etc thing, to explain readings with an OHM meter... then, I get this..

I tested the leads just for continuity. And all four made the light beep so i was happy with that. .......
.... so I’ll try to find some coil packs through a salvage yard or something and buy new ignition leads. I’ll keep everyone updated as to what the problem was thanks.

so, at least the leads WERE trimmed, and things improved, but the secondary side of the coil, between both plug wires, with caps removed, was not...
what the..?
I can only direct folks to check stuff, I can't do it for them over the keyboard and see the results on my meter... continuity? seriously? you checked primary side, and even tried to sense volts..(why, I have no idea..), why not follow thru, ok? OHM out the secondary, plug wires between themselves, without plug caps.
and, before buying coils, the wires themselves can be replaced alone, you can purchase a set of ACCELL silicone 7mm tinned wire core wires, at most parts stores, buy the smallest cheapest set of the Yellow ones, 7mm, Silicone, wire core, (do NOT buy carbon core, they will not work..) and cut them to fit... you can get 3 sets out of a package.

I'm done for now.

this is all about a total of 10 minutes of diagnosis time that both Steve, and I would do, before moving on.. once these things are found NOT to be an issue, other stuff can be examined... and neither of us would raise an eyebrow about the primary side being .3 ohms above the 'book value'..

look closely at the left side coil, the black w/ yellow stripe wire with a ring lug, should have an abrasively cleaned metal  surface to ground on, and also, the surfaces of the frame both coils bolt to..(at least the one the b/y wire attaches to) insure that wire is not 'frayed' at the ring lug crimp, and only a couple strands are actually making the connection with that ring lug.
« Last Edit: June 27, 2018, 04:48:59 pm by MAN OF BLUES »

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Offline Chow

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Re: Missfire during acceleration at all RPM’s
« Reply #28 on: June 27, 2018, 04:44:53 pm »
I’m gonna go step by step down the list and check out what’s going on I’m not in a rush, the thing that’s strange to me is last night in a ride i noticed at 2000 rom that missfire was so bad to the point where if i have a little more throttle the bike wouldn’t even budge it was almost stuck like it had a rev limiter on it  so if I’m doing it i should just replace everything while I’m already there. It’ll be a while before i can get the coils and leads so if anyone else has better suggestions I’d love to hear them.

Offline MAN OF BLUES

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Re: Missfire during acceleration at all RPM’s
« Reply #29 on: June 27, 2018, 05:08:51 pm »
at this point, I am beginning to now question the fuel.. and trust me, I have method to reason..
this started out as a carb clean, and plugs, and every step that has been done, with testing in between, involved removal, and replacement of the fuel tank, and following each, things continually go worse than before.
I know you say you flushed and used new fuel, but now I'm questioning if prior to that, the once cleaned carbs were exposed to some gack fuel, and unless the tank was totally emptied (upside down, into a container with a funnel, and coffee filter, to see) I think some stuff migrated.. and the carbs are now effected. It is imperative that anytime a carb setup is serviced, a complete flush, dump, add fuel(clean fresh, from a new and clean gascan...) is repeated multiple times, before ever attempting to start the bike. Every time a tank comes off, it shakes up and distributes particulate matter back into the 'cleaned' carbs, which is now what seems to be the issue.. that "cutoff point of no rpm above 2K' is showing this now.
it's no longer a "bike hesitates and misses above 3k" thing.
now it's clearly something else, making the current issue.
Current, meaning it will not climb in RPM.

Anyone else that has been thru this all, scores of times, please chime in, but mind you the methodology and checklist is very tell tale, I'd really like SISF's opinion on what I've told you, as I'm sure you don't know me, and I just want to quantify what I'm telling you.

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Offline connie_rider

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Re: Missfire during acceleration at all RPM’s
« Reply #30 on: June 27, 2018, 05:54:59 pm »
it's no longer a "bike hesitates and misses above 3k" thing.
now it's clearly something else, making the current issue.
Current, meaning it will not climb in RPM.


When I had the issues with mine, one of the "sometimes" problems was; it wouldn't rev to higher RPM's.
{felt like fuel starvation}

At the time my son had 36's on the bike.. {They had run well for a long time).
 I and son went thru them repeatedly and couldn't fix the running problem. So we tried a set of 32's.
  Those kept flooding. Son tried to reset float levels with no luck, {and I was frustrated} so we sent them to "the Master".
      NOTE: While at his place, he discovered the frame of the 32's were bent...
  Got them back from him and reinstalled them. It still ran iffy.. %#&@*%%!!  >:(
      Countless calls, $$, and hours later, I got it to run better by changing the foam "a lot"..  :sign0137: 
      We all knew something was wrong, but it was rideable.
        Later, I opted to take it to a National and begged him to look at it. :truce:

  There/After all of the $$/trial and error; Steve figured out that the problem was wires and caps.

Anyway, that's why I'm saying my step 1 is; rule out the wires and caps..
  NOTE: The carbs may need attention too, but do this first.

Ride safe, Ted

PS: Steve's my hero.. 
         {Don't tell him I sed that}  :-X
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Offline MAN OF BLUES

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Re: Missfire during acceleration at all RPM’s
« Reply #31 on: June 27, 2018, 06:38:02 pm »
meh
Ted's just sucking up to Bubba...because he wants his C14 to go faster than the speed of light... :nananana: :nananana: :nananana: :nananana:

I remember when Bubba was experimenting with aquarium air control valves in the carb caps, trying to do away with the coil springs on the diaphragms..

yeah, lets go back in time thru the wayback machine Poindexter.....oh wait a dog gone minute, I mixed up Mr. Peabody with Mr. Wizard...

I guess it was Tooter that screamed
"help me Mr. Wizard..."  I admit, Bubba never screamed that...far from it.
 :rotflmao: If he drank beer, it would have been "hold my beer and watch this".... alas, he never said that either...
 :'(

ahhh fun times, and y'all get all this knowledge for free.... amazing ain't it. :rotflmao:

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Offline connie_rider

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Re: Missfire during acceleration at all RPM’s
« Reply #32 on: June 27, 2018, 06:46:21 pm »
meh
Ted's just sucking up to Bubba...because he wants his C14 to go faster than the speed of light...
:nananana: :nananana: :nananana: :nananana:

Yupp!!
  But don't tell him.   shhhh  :67:
      I'm trying to get him to make me a "special" flash {with "Warp" speed included}..
          (How am I doin'?)

Ride safe, Ted
« Last Edit: June 29, 2018, 02:52:50 pm by connie_rider »
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Offline MAN OF BLUES

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Re: Missfire during acceleration at all RPM’s
« Reply #33 on: June 28, 2018, 08:27:19 pm »
you rock Ted... i want one also.... >:D

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Offline Chow

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Re: Missfire during acceleration at all RPM’s
« Reply #34 on: June 28, 2018, 08:34:12 pm »
MOB it very well could be, and i checked the ignition leads for continuity without the caps not the primary sides of the coil packs. The only thing i tested for voltage was the live electrical wires that go to the primary side of the coil pack and they were jumping all around. You said yourself that they are supposed to and after just thinking about it logically i guess it makes sense. The person who owned the bike before me had put a filter inline on the tank I'm not to sure what kind of filtering it did but I'm not to sure as if the contaminants caused it to run that poor. In all honesty the bike has 45 thousand on it, and probably has never had coil packs or ignition leads replaced and its due to be replaced. Things break it's not a new bike by any means. So ill try for two new coil packs and get the leads that MOB suggested and use the same caps. ;D ;D If things don't work then ill keep moving down the list. I don't plan on getting rid of the bike anytime soon. So i might as well try the best of my ability to make it run 100 % by doing the necessary maintenance the bike needs. Judging from the way the clutch fluid and the brake fluid was i can tell how he truly took car of the bike. And that's how i haggled the price :great: :great: :great:

Offline WillyP

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Re: Missfire during acceleration at all RPM’s
« Reply #35 on: June 28, 2018, 10:53:12 pm »
When I first got my '88 it would die when the throttle was cracked at 4k. Once over the dead spot it ran pretty well. Cleaning the carbs (and tank) and installing Steve's original jet kit solved that problem. Any carbed motor, generally speaking, and with exceptions, of course... that runs well at higher rpm but not at certain rpms, or bands of rpm, most likely has a carb issue. But poor ignition often goes hand in hand with poor carburation, as both are often caused by poor maintenance. I think for many people they don't recognize misfiring at higher rpm because it seems like just a little less power, which if you aren't familiar with the power the bike should have, might seem like it is still plenty powerful.
« Last Edit: June 28, 2018, 11:15:55 pm by WillyP »
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Offline Bud

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Re: Missfire during acceleration at all RPM’s
« Reply #36 on: June 29, 2018, 09:12:30 am »
Years ago I thought replacing coils on my GS1100 would fix things.  It didn't.  I really wouldn't waste the money on coils.  Buy the wire and cap kit from murph.  I'm sure the idea of cleaning the carbs and tank aren't very appealing, but I think you'd be better off to clean those while you wait for the wires and caps.  If you're going to keep this thing, and you have the money, I'd spend the bucks and send the carbs to SISF and know that my carbs were done right.  If you let the more experienced guys do the thinking, and you be the bolt twister, you'll get this done sooner rather than later.  Hope that helps.

Offline WillyP

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Re: Missfire during acceleration at all RPM’s
« Reply #37 on: June 29, 2018, 12:44:47 pm »
Also, unless you are an experienced mechanic, it's better to do one thing at a time, then test ride. Makes it much easier to undo a mistake... if you have only done one thing, that one thing is where the mistake is.
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Offline connie_rider

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Re: Missfire during acceleration at all RPM’s
« Reply #38 on: June 29, 2018, 01:20:21 pm »
Chow said; So with That being said I purchased the bike and immediately replaced the spark plugs and cleaned the carbs. After installing the pieces back together, I noticed that the bike immediately began to misfire.

I agree with WillyP. It's "related" to one of the 2 things he did...
The easiest/least expensive to check/replace is the wires/caps.

"Related" could lead to a lot.
Quick thought:  Chow, check/"look carefully" that "all" vacuum lines and plugs are correct, and the carbs are in the boots and securely sealed.   "Both" are other/often missed problems that are "related" to "I replaced the spark plugs and cleaned the carbs".

Ride safe, Ted
   
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Offline esmoojee

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Re: Missfire during acceleration at all RPM’s
« Reply #39 on: June 29, 2018, 02:46:14 pm »
I was just going a through a similar issue and I checked voltage on the coils. They were high on the secondary. In spec on the primary. I thought maybe it was something else. Pulled plugs two had oil on them. Removed the cover re-sealed the gasket and put back together. No change. Pulled the carbs and cleaned the hell out them. Particularly the pilots. Re-set the float height per FSM and found one of the vacuum hoses was slightly ripped. Reassembled and she runs like a top. I’m leaning toward carbs or a vacuum leak.  Check your hoses.

Offline Mark N

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Re: Missfire during acceleration at all RPM’s
« Reply #40 on: July 07, 2018, 05:27:43 pm »
Just thought I’d throw my $.02 worth in. I was having the same problems, bog, miss and backfire at cruise throttle. What I found was 2 very small cracks in the vacuum line to the fuel shutoff valve at the valve nipple. Cuter out and has run great for 45 mi so far.
1995 Concours

Offline Chow

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Re: Missfire during acceleration at all RPM’s
« Reply #41 on: July 09, 2018, 03:28:42 pm »
So after purchasing leads and coil packs the bike ran fine for about two hours. After getting it well into operating temps the bike began to missfire yet again. I’m still not sure what iit can be. The key here is that when i remove the ignition leads and coil packs the bike runs fine. But then the bike gets to operating temps and begins to missfire. The one thing in still confused about is the fact that the leads for the primary side of the coil packs don’t give the coil 12 volts. The only other thing i can think of is a lean condition it runs fine for a while gets to operating temps and then the lean condition causes a missfire. The other thing I’ve noticed is overall the lights are dim on the bike and as i increase throttle and the alternator spins up the lights go back to normal brightness. Could the alternator be causing the ignition system not to get enough voltage ?? I’m not to sure at this point so I’ll try what other people suggested.

Offline esmoojee

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Re: Missfire during acceleration at all RPM’s
« Reply #42 on: July 09, 2018, 04:55:56 pm »
Have you done a load test on the battery? I’d check the IC igniter as well. Maybe its bad.

Offline Cal

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Re: Missfire during acceleration at all RPM’s
« Reply #43 on: July 10, 2018, 12:12:35 am »
just be certain the choke/enrichment mechanism is mechanically full off when warmed up.  I just saw a bike on the weekend that ran just fine when the throttle wasn't cranked open big time - but would choke and spit if the throttle was rung out.

once the choke was determined to be hung up - all was good (new plug also helped; black crap all over it!)

Cal

Offline mnbikeguy

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Re: Missfire during acceleration at all RPM’s
« Reply #44 on: July 10, 2018, 02:12:47 am »
So after purchasing leads and coil packs the bike ran fine for about two hours. After getting it well into operating temps the bike began to missfire yet again. I’m still not sure what iit can be. The key here is that when i remove the ignition leads and coil packs the bike runs fine. But then the bike gets to operating temps and begins to missfire. The one thing in still confused about is the fact that the leads for the primary side of the coil packs don’t give the coil 12 volts. The only other thing i can think of is a lean condition it runs fine for a while gets to operating temps and then the lean condition causes a missfire. The other thing I’ve noticed is overall the lights are dim on the bike and as i increase throttle and the alternator spins up the lights go back to normal brightness. Could the alternator be causing the ignition system not to get enough voltage ?? I’m not to sure at this point so I’ll try what other people suggested.

Sounds like you have might have points of resistance in your electrical system. Why? Heat increases resistance and will show up as a miss. No where can I tell if you've actually used an ohm meter to check the caps. Do that, they should read 5k. As has been said, the resistors don't go bad but there can be corrosion that kills the cap. If you find a bad one and don't want to buy the kit from Murph's the NGK part# is NGK8386. It's a simple replacement you just have to move the valve cover seal from the existing cap to the new one. Also check all your ground connections and do the power mod. Make sure the electric system is rock solid (how's the connection from the battery to solenoid, what voltage is the system reading at idle? at 2000 rpm?) and then move on to fuel system if the problem continues.
The big thing here is to know why you're replacing parts before replacing them. If you want to throw money away I'll give you my Venmo account info.

Offline Bud

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Re: Missfire during acceleration at all RPM’s
« Reply #45 on: July 10, 2018, 08:20:57 am »
Last year my GS1100 started stuttering.  It would start and run fine......for a little while.  I could get a half mile from home and it would start misbehaving like that.  I bought new air box boots, new intake boots and all the gaskets and o-rings to go through the carbs.  One day I got the bike out to take some pics with my nieces and nephew.  Bike wouldn't start.  Pushed it back in the garage and went back a few days later to see if I could get it to run.  My problem turned out to be electrical.  All I did to fix it was unplug and replug all the connectors under the left side cover multiple times to scrub the connectors.  One of those plugs went to the ignitor.  I haven't had a problem since.  I would abrasively clean all the grounds and every connection having to do with the ignition.  If you're ambitious, with older bikes, it would be good to do that with ALL connectors on the bike.  Hit them with some dielectric grease afterwards to prevent corrosion in the future.  It could be a bit time consuming to go through all the connectors, but it's cheap and can prevent some problems in the future.
You might also check to see if the previous owner did the free power mod.  This grounds the ignitor directly to the battery and adds another ground to the harness.  If the connection is loose where the ground wire to the ignitor was cut, that will do it as well.  DAMHIK
As for the lights being dim, I would think that would point to iffy grounds or other iffy (corroded) electrical connections.

Offline Pbfoot

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Re: Missfire during acceleration at all RPM’s
« Reply #46 on: July 10, 2018, 02:00:10 pm »
I would check the ignition pickups. They fail at high temps and then work again when cool.
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Offline Bud

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Re: Missfire during acceleration at all RPM’s
« Reply #47 on: July 10, 2018, 04:21:07 pm »
You can use a hair drier to heat the pickup coils to see if they fail when hot.

Offline Chow

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Re: Missfire during acceleration at all RPM’s
« Reply #48 on: July 10, 2018, 05:55:06 pm »
So the points are connected to the crank ? i can check the gap and see what the gap is. Last night my battery died. and when i pop started the bike the headlights and tail lights didn't work. What circuit runs the main headlight and tail lamp? to me it seems like a electrical problem as the heat increases there is to much resistance somewhere. So i'm gonna try the free power mod and see what happens. Doesnt the wires that get connected to the primary side of the coil pack supposed to be 12 volts? MOB says it's supposed to be different but i'm not to sure the electrical reads all over the place and does not stay constant. That's was using a Snap-On DVOM so i know its accurate. Also where exactly is the ground for the bike and its connections. Ive heard the ground is bad but if i could find it and use a metal brush to get a better ground and see if that works before replacing wires.

Offline m in sc

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Re: Missfire during acceleration at all RPM’s
« Reply #49 on: July 10, 2018, 06:22:28 pm »
not points. pickup coils. it has electronic ignition. the pickups are triggered off the crank.

could be your igniter box, its under the seat. check to make sure the connections aren't green on the plugs there.

best ground to check is at the battery, but the coil, on the left hand side of the bike, should have a ring terminal that is connected to a black with yellow tracer wire. this is a ground point. look to make sure that wire is still good. .02