Concours Owners Group (COG) Forum

Concours Discussion (C10 / ZG1000 / 1000GTR) => Concours C10 / ZG1000 General Chat and Tech => Topic started by: Nable on May 22, 2015, 02:49:21 pm

Title: new owner fuel problems
Post by: Nable on May 22, 2015, 02:49:21 pm
Hello COG,
I'm the new owner of a 98 concours with about 18000 miles. The story seems common enough: I picked it up for a song, it's (visually) in immaculate condition, garage kept, but hadn't been driven in 2 years. So, expecting the mandatory fuel system problems.

I'm a total novice at mechanics but willing to dive in. When I got the motorcycle home it was running really rough, barely idling and and dying when I pulled the throttle. So i pulled the carbs and found clogged jets - thats about all i really cleaned, I was flying blind mostly because my clymer hadn't come yet and I couldn't find the much vaunted article "it ain't a diet thang" anywhere on the website. I did spray and clean all of the surfaces, the needle, etc, but i didn't take much else apart. Anyway, I put it back together and fired up and the previous problems were better, it idled and revved when I turned the throttle, but still ran really rough. So I did the first thing I should have done, which was drain the fuel and get fresh, drain the bowls, put in a little bit of seafoam, and tried again. Huzzah! Running great at first, but wait theres more.

I took it for a quick test drive, and found that when I shifted, sometimes the instead of dropping back down the engine would rev up to 4 or 5 k and just stay there. sometimes it drops down on its own after minute , sometimes it doesn't and I have to shut down the bike. I had to take it home and stop working on it for the night. The next day I took off the fairings and started it, and it was running a little rougher, and still revinng really bad, even when I'm not driving it.

I suspected first the my throttle cables were improperly adjusted (which I still think they are, actually) but I can see the throttle assembly on the carbs retuning to the closed position, even when it's revving. I checked for vacuum leaks on the air intake boots or cracks in the air filter box, but the boots are on as snug as I can get them and theres no obvious leakage. Also, I'm not leaving the choke on.

Whats the next step? I don't particularly want to send the carbs in to steve (bout drained the savings account on the purchase, so if I can get away without, I'd prefer to).  Thanks for any help,
nable
Title: Re: new owner fuel problems
Post by: davida on May 22, 2015, 03:23:58 pm
 
Quote
I don't particularly want to send the carbs in to steve

We all, at times, have to do things we don't particularly want to do.
Title: Re: new owner fuel problems
Post by: oaxaca on May 22, 2015, 03:24:25 pm
I always vote vacuum leak on hanging idle.  How soft are your airbox boots?  Vacuum leaks aren't typically visible, and I'm not a fan of spraying combustibles on the boots to try and find a leak.  I tried it on my cb and the test didnt work.  they were leaking but spraying did nothing.  If the boots arent squishy soft they will have issues seating properly.

you can try loosing the airbox bolts and with the bike running jam the airbox into the carbs as tight as you can and see if anything changes.  This just happened on my 97 last week and i could sometimes get the idle to drop by forcing the airbox into the carbs.

Also trace all the vacuum lines from the barbs on the front of each carb, and make sure your air filter is seated.

Title: Re: new owner fuel problems
Post by: SteveJ. on May 22, 2015, 04:05:27 pm
SiSF has referred to this issue before, it's generally from having to adjust the idle to run off of the needles cuz the pilot jet and some/all of those passage ways are still blocked.

The bike has only averged a 1000 miles a year, stuff is gonna attention. Coolant, hoses and O-rings, hydraulic fluids and at least the front brake hoses, valve adjust, fork oil, engine oil, final drive oil, tires, and most important, overflow tubes. These would be a bare minimum unless you know isomething has been recently done.

Did I miss anything?
Title: Re: new owner fuel problems
Post by: oaxaca on May 22, 2015, 05:08:12 pm
SiSF has referred to this issue before, it's generally from having to adjust the idle to run off of the needles cuz the pilot jet and some/all of those passage ways are still blocked.


Did I miss anything?

Correct me if im wrong, but if this was the case, i believe you could just turn out the main idle knob.  If it dies, you likely have clogged jets, if the idle stays where it is, you have a vacuum leak.
Title: Re: new owner fuel problems
Post by: DC Concours on May 22, 2015, 05:29:23 pm
Your problem seems classic. You are either setting the high speed idle too high or not setting the screws back right after cleaning.

I had the same issues with my bike. I bought a 2001 last year with only 5500 miles. everything was great except for the carbs. so I turned the idle high to keep it running so I could ride the bike back home 100 miles.

Title: Re: new owner fuel problems
Post by: Steve in Sunny Fla on May 22, 2015, 05:37:32 pm
Lots of posting lately about vacuum leaks, which I have never seen to be the case. Historically carbs have been the bane of the concours owners for all times, and it will all go back to poorly maintained carbs. the next step for the concours owner, as in this case a self acknowledged novice, is to save money by taking the carbs apart and servicing themselves. i wouldn't say the results are mixed, i would say the results are more failure and damage to the previously undamaged carbs to boot. All you need to do is see the amount of carb threads in which the owner has to pull the carbs several times, and never does get them right. 

  While carb work isn't rocket science, it is an exercise in futility if you don't pay attention to the little things that an untrained person doesn't realise is really important. Guitar strings and carb cleaner has probable messed up more more sets of carbs than I've fixed, but I guess it's the old stand - by.  :-[

  And on the issue of why folks can't access " carbs - it's ain't a diet thing" it's because the archived information is available to full COG members only. Cog has been a group for Concours Owners to share information since 1989. The core membership all pay a yearly membership fee, but any COG member will tell you that it's worth what you pay several times over in the support available from information and club members, not to mention our get togethers, rides and rallies. Y'all who are not members yet need to understand the members here are helping you learn about, maintain, and improve your ride because we want ya'll to join us in a full membership. And just so ya know, I'm just a COG member just like the rest of the members here, I don't get paid for being the Tech Editor, just like none of the officers are compensated. We do it because we've gained so much personally from meeting the great folks of COG and befriending fellow riders from around the country. We all hope you'll consider being a person who realizes they can make a difference for the next guy by keeping the organization going through being a full COG member. Just my .02... Steve
Title: Re: new owner fuel problems
Post by: MAN OF BLUES on May 22, 2015, 05:44:11 pm
sorry to finger point, but the issue was defined in your first post... when you pulled and cleaned the carbs, and the gastank was off, you neglected the cause...
even if you did get all the primary low speed and other fuel passages clean in the carbs, you shook the tank full of crappy fuel up during the removal, and reinstall, and then ran the newly cleaned carbs on contaminated fuel.

back to square one, pull the tank dump it, flush it, and set it aside.
reclean the carbs.
run the bike prior to reinstalling the tank, using a remote small gastank, like one from a push mower, to insure it actually will run correctly on FRESH fuel, then put the clean tank back on a add fuel from a NEW clean gascan.

hindsight is always clear.

if I had a nickle for everytime I did a carb job at someones house and used my mini tank to start and setup the bike, and before leaving telling the owner to dump the fuel and clean their tank.... and they didn't.... and the next day they call me....
id be rich... well, Rich by name, not by proxy... :rotflmao: :rotflmao:

hey Bubba... guitar strings and Gumout when used by a trained MeKniK are tools of the trade.....
ya jest gotta know how to use them.....

now I have to go fix my lawnmower.....
the pull rope broke..... :rotflmao: :rotflmao:


and I never use Seafoam. :beerchug:
Title: Re: new owner fuel problems
Post by: Steve in Sunny Fla on May 22, 2015, 06:09:51 pm
Yeah Rich,  but it's the same as surgery... scalpel applied to your body in the hands of a trained surgeon = good. Scalpel applied to your body by a meknick = bad.  :-\  It's not the tool, it's who is weilding it  ;)  Steve
Title: Re: new owner fuel problems
Post by: MAN OF BLUES on May 22, 2015, 06:18:15 pm
Yeah Rich,  but it's the same as surgery... scalpel applied to your body in the hands of a trained surgeon = good. Scalpel applied to your body by a meknick = bad.  :-\  It's not the tool, it's who is weilding it  ;)  Steve

surgeon?

you mean Dentist.... bang bang Maxwel's Silver hammer....

(https://forgottenfilmcast.files.wordpress.com/2012/03/sgt-peppers-3.png)
Title: Re: new owner fuel problems
Post by: DC Concours on May 22, 2015, 06:25:36 pm
if used carelessly, would the guitar wire scratch the holes and make them larger? is that the problem?
Title: Re: new owner fuel problems
Post by: WillyP on May 22, 2015, 08:11:23 pm
I'm a carpenter, I use nails.
Title: Re: new owner fuel problems
Post by: Steve in Sunny Fla on May 22, 2015, 08:16:50 pm
if used carelessly, would the guitar wire scratch the holes and make them larger? is that the problem?

 i dunno, which chord are we talking about? and that begs the question... are the jet holes sized with drills or guitar wire... details details  >:(   Steve
Title: Re: new owner fuel problems
Post by: oaxaca on May 22, 2015, 08:18:52 pm
Lots of posting lately about vacuum leaks, which I have never seen to be the case.


Probably just me.  I only recommend this because its the only thing ive ever seen cause a handging idle.  I'm curious though because when its happened to me my bike would typically idle (rough) at a low rpm but when you rev it the idle hangs.

 I dont know but i assume that if the carburetor is the issue, the bike would idle high from startup.  ive never seen a bike that could idle at normal rpm with a clogged jet.  Once again, not positive, but guessing high idle is a carb problem and hanging idle is a vacuum leak.  this is why i suggested turning down the idle to see if it dies.  if its a vacuum leak turning out the idle adjuster will have no effect (once again, this is only in my limited, yet repeatedly observed experience. So please correct me if im wrong.)
Title: Re: new owner fuel problems
Post by: WillyP on May 22, 2015, 08:26:31 pm
Does the throttle snap back on it's own when released? If not, it might be the cable are too tight and need adjustment.
Title: Re: new owner fuel problems
Post by: Nable on May 22, 2015, 08:51:04 pm
Thanks for all of the input. I actually did pay for membership of the forum, but for some reason it's not showing up as such, maybe because I first signed up as a forum subscriber? Anyway I was able to search the Tech pages for the "it ain't a diet thang" article but that link is broken, and i wasn't able to find it anywhere else.

So I already have a lot of suggestions, but being not very knowledgeable it's hard to know which to take.

1. Vacuum leak. The boots aren't terribly soft, but they are still somewhat pliable. They look well seated on both sides but it's hard to say for sure. I could try ordering a new set of boots... However, SiSF seems skeptical of this idea that vacuum leaks are a typical problem. Also I don't really understand about the vacuum lines on the front of the carb, what they do etc.

Quote
Correct me if im wrong, but if this was the case, i believe you could just turn out the main idle knob.  If it dies, you likely have clogged jets, if the idle stays where it is, you have a vacuum leak.

is this the case? Do you mean when the idle is hanging? If so this could be a good way to diagnose the problem.

2. The carbs are still messed up. I suppose this seems likely, as SiSF pointed out, because I don't really know what I'm doing. I didn't remove the pilot jet, and it seem like there are places I can't see that could still be clogged up. A solution to this could be to pull the carbs again, but do a more thorough job this time - do the pilot jets, take off all of the rubber bits and give it a good soak. Or, probably more reasonably, send it to steve. As it was unhelpfully pointed out, sometimes we all have to do things we don't want to do, obviously. $300 is a lot of dollars to me, and it would be nice to be able to know how to do this all on my own, so I'm still holding that as a last resort, but would be convinced if this was the overwhelming sentiment.

3. Still bad gas. This was clearly naive of me to not do this first, and probably underscores my lack of understanding. The tank was nearly empty when I got it, and I put some fresh gas in, so my reasoning was if there was still a little bad gas in there it would be diluted by the fresh stuff. Clearly not the case. So the implication is that trying to run it with the bad gas after cleaning the carbs would have re-fouled up the carbs, and I have to do the whole thing over again. The inside of the tank appears to be not-rusty, but I can't see much in there. Also, I don't know how to actually clean the tank beyond  dumping it.

I guess so far I'm leaning towards the classic "pull the carbs again, and do it more right this time". On the bright side, it seems easier to do the second time around.
Thanks again for all of the advise,
nable
Title: Re: new owner fuel problems
Post by: Steve in Sunny Fla on May 22, 2015, 09:34:12 pm
every journey starts with a single step. If I can do it, anyone can. give it another go, but pay attention to the little stuff an be careful not to damage anything.  :great:  Steve
Title: Re: new owner fuel problems
Post by: WillyP on May 22, 2015, 10:01:35 pm
Thanks for all of the input. I actually did pay for membership of the forum, but for some reason it's not showing up as such, maybe because I first signed up as a forum subscriber? Anyway I was able to search the Tech pages for the "it ain't a diet thang" article but that link is broken, and i wasn't able to find it anywhere else.


You didn't pay for membership in the forum, you paid for membership in COG. COG, in turn, pays for the forum.

Unfortunately, the process is not automated, a volunteer has to take your payment and process it manually, then upgrade your status to member. Once that happens... it's still not an automatic thing, you have to log out and log back in to see your forum status updated. So, it usually takes a few days, sometimes a week, occasionally more.

How the Your Profile Works (http://forum.cog-online.org/index.php/topic,25387.msg97492.html#new)

Yea, it's a clunky process, but it works! (most of the time anyway)  :-[
Title: Re: new owner fuel problems
Post by: oaxaca on May 22, 2015, 10:24:24 pm
my advice:

first try pushing the airbox up against the carbs like i said while its running. if this doesnt bring the idle down, it wont tell you anything, but if the idle DOES come down you know its the boots and you know you need to buy new ones.  If your boots are stiff to the point where they can be flattened and dont instantly come back to shape they can cause vacuum leaks.  I didnt think mine were very stiff but i bought new ones for 60 bucks and no more hanging idle.  These boots dont seat as well as they should due to the relatively flimsy design of the lips.

if that doesnt do anything

Then (unless somebody says otherwise, im not POSITIVE on this but pretty sure) try adjusting the idle knob outward to the point that the screw has backed off the stop plate while the bike is running and the idle is hung up.  (its tough but with a flashlight at the right angle from above you can get a slight view of the screw and stop plate).  If you have a vacuum leak, the idle will not drop.

Regarding the vacuum hoses on the carbs, there is a vacuum line that goes from the fuel petcock to the carb.  each carb will have a port in that same spot.  check and make sure the hose on each one is airtight, and trace the hoses to make sure the other end is airtight as well. 

Also double check the airbox seating.  that (pretty much) covers your bases for vacuum.

that being said, cleaning the jets should be the first thing you do when you pull the carbs.  so that couldnt hurt.  but if there werent signs of ethanol gunk or dirt in general the first time you pulled them then i wouldnt necessarily suspect an issue with your jets.  though pulling the carbs is free...  You could also check the float level while youre at it if you pull the carbs.  and then theres the fact that the carbs have to come off to replace the boots anyway.  But you dont want to pull the carbs twice and THEN find out you need to pull them again to replace the boots.  I know from experience.
Title: Re: new owner fuel problems
Post by: Eddie-FL on May 22, 2015, 11:19:52 pm
OK, I'm sure Steve will correct me if I'm wrong, but the air boots (air box to carbs) will not be the cause of a "vacuum" leak. Yes, it can (and will) affect fuel mixture but a true vacuum leak will be between the carbs and the engine. Either the hoses/caps on the carb nipples or the carb holders (the rubber bits between the carbs and the head). I lean (no pun intended!) to the small passages in the carbs as Steve mentioned.
Title: Re: new owner fuel problems
Post by: oaxaca on May 22, 2015, 11:50:59 pm
OK, I'm sure Steve will correct me if I'm wrong, but the air boots (air box to carbs) will not be the cause of a "vacuum" leak. Yes, it can (and will) affect fuel mixture but a true vacuum leak will be between the carbs and the engine. Either the hoses/caps on the carb nipples or the carb holders (the rubber bits between the carbs and the head). I lean (no pun intended!) to the small passages in the carbs as Steve mentioned.

This would be true on a pumper carb but all CV carbs rely on vacuum everywhere after the air filter. if there is a leak after the air filter it is a vacuum leak and your carburetor is not going to function properly.
Title: Re: new owner fuel problems
Post by: MAN OF BLUES on May 23, 2015, 03:56:01 am
if used carelessly, would the guitar wire scratch the holes and make them larger? is that the problem?

 i dunno, which chord are we talking about? and that begs the question... are the jet holes sized with drills or guitar wire... details details  >:(   Steve

duppa
go read the article.. I specified an E string...

its smaller than the smallest holes there, and just insures they are clean... a quick poke is all that is needed, then a blast of gumout, followed by 90psi blowgun... viola... clean or missing part...ooops
Title: Re: new owner fuel problems
Post by: MAN OF BLUES on May 23, 2015, 04:07:11 am


2. The carbs are still messed up. I suppose this seems likely, as SiSF pointed out, because I don't really know what I'm doing. I didn't remove the pilot jet, and it seem like there are places I can't see that could still be clogged up. A solution to this could be to pull the carbs again, but do a more thorough job this time - do the pilot jets, ...


3. Still bad gas. This was clearly naive of me to not do this first, and probably underscores my lack of understanding. The tank was nearly empty when I got it, and I put some fresh gas in, so my reasoning was if there was still a little bad gas in there it would be diluted by the fresh stuff. Clearly not the case. So the implication is that trying to run it with the bad gas after cleaning the carbs would have re-fouled up the carbs,


YOU are on the right track...


my advice:

first try pushing the airbox up against the carbs like i said while its running. if this doesnt bring the idle down, it wont tell you anything, but if the idle DOES come down you know its the boots and you know you need to buy new ones.  If your boots are stiff to the point where they can be flattened and dont instantly come back to shape they can cause vacuum leaks.  I didnt think mine were very stiff but i bought new ones for 60 bucks and no more hanging idle.  These boots dont seat as well as they should due to the relatively flimsy design of the lips.

if that doesnt do anything

Then (unless somebody says otherwise, im not POSITIVE on this but pretty sure) try adjusting the idle knob outward to the point that the screw has backed off the stop plate while the bike is running and the idle is hung up.  (its tough but with a flashlight at the right angle from above you can get a slight view of the screw and stop plate).  If you have a vacuum leak, the idle will not drop.

Regarding the vacuum hoses on the carbs, there is a vacuum line that goes from the fuel petcock to the carb.  each carb will have a port in that same spot.  check and make sure the hose on each one is airtight, and trace the hoses to make sure the other end is airtight as well. 

Also double check the airbox seating.  that (pretty much) covers your bases for vacuum.

that being said, cleaning the jets should be the first thing you do when you pull the carbs.  so that couldnt hurt.  but if there werent signs of ethanol gunk or dirt in general the first time you pulled them then i wouldnt necessarily suspect an issue with your jets.  though pulling the carbs is free...  You could also check the float level while youre at it if you pull the carbs.  and then theres the fact that the carbs have to come off to replace the boots anyway.  But you dont want to pull the carbs twice and THEN find out you need to pull them again to replace the boots.  I know from experience.

omg

OK, I'm sure Steve will correct me if I'm wrong, but the air boots (air box to carbs) will not be the cause of a "vacuum" leak. Yes, it can (and will) affect fuel mixture but a true vacuum leak will be between the carbs and the engine. Either the hoses/caps on the carb nipples or the carb holders (the rubber bits between the carbs and the head). I lean (no pun intended!) to the small passages in the carbs as Steve mentioned.


quote:


......if I had a nickle for everytime I did a carb job at someones house and used my mini tank to start and setup the bike, and before leaving telling the owner to dump the fuel and clean their tank.... and they didn't.... and the next day they call me....
id be rich...


ok, I have no idea how Steve has any hair left... I shave my head now, but last year had hair down to my azzz,,, now I know better.. :-X

 Bubba, tell them straight... I need to open a Northern carb service, hell. :-\

Luv ya bro, aand miss ya, but I cant say i miss the midnight phone calls.....
you need a raise... don't hold yer breath tho, i never got one..... :-[:great: :rotflmao: :rotflmao: :rotflmao: :rotflmao:
Title: Re: new owner fuel problems
Post by: oaxaca on May 23, 2015, 08:34:15 am


2. The carbs are still messed up. I suppose this seems likely, as SiSF pointed out, because I don't really know what I'm doing. I didn't remove the pilot jet, and it seem like there are places I can't see that could still be clogged up. A solution to this could be to pull the carbs again, but do a more thorough job this time - do the pilot jets, ...


3. Still bad gas. This was clearly naive of me to not do this first, and probably underscores my lack of understanding. The tank was nearly empty when I got it, and I put some fresh gas in, so my reasoning was if there was still a little bad gas in there it would be diluted by the fresh stuff. Clearly not the case. So the implication is that trying to run it with the bad gas after cleaning the carbs would have re-fouled up the carbs,


YOU are on the right track...


my advice:

first try pushing the airbox up against the carbs like i said while its running. if this doesnt bring the idle down, it wont tell you anything, but if the idle DOES come down you know its the boots and you know you need to buy new ones.  If your boots are stiff to the point where they can be flattened and dont instantly come back to shape they can cause vacuum leaks.  I didnt think mine were very stiff but i bought new ones for 60 bucks and no more hanging idle.  These boots dont seat as well as they should due to the relatively flimsy design of the lips.

if that doesnt do anything

Then (unless somebody says otherwise, im not POSITIVE on this but pretty sure) try adjusting the idle knob outward to the point that the screw has backed off the stop plate while the bike is running and the idle is hung up.  (its tough but with a flashlight at the right angle from above you can get a slight view of the screw and stop plate).  If you have a vacuum leak, the idle will not drop.

Regarding the vacuum hoses on the carbs, there is a vacuum line that goes from the fuel petcock to the carb.  each carb will have a port in that same spot.  check and make sure the hose on each one is airtight, and trace the hoses to make sure the other end is airtight as well. 

Also double check the airbox seating.  that (pretty much) covers your bases for vacuum.

that being said, cleaning the jets should be the first thing you do when you pull the carbs.  so that couldnt hurt.  but if there werent signs of ethanol gunk or dirt in general the first time you pulled them then i wouldnt necessarily suspect an issue with your jets.  though pulling the carbs is free...  You could also check the float level while youre at it if you pull the carbs.  and then theres the fact that the carbs have to come off to replace the boots anyway.  But you dont want to pull the carbs twice and THEN find out you need to pull them again to replace the boots.  I know from experience.

omg

OK, I'm sure Steve will correct me if I'm wrong, but the air boots (air box to carbs) will not be the cause of a "vacuum" leak. Yes, it can (and will) affect fuel mixture but a true vacuum leak will be between the carbs and the engine. Either the hoses/caps on the carb nipples or the carb holders (the rubber bits between the carbs and the head). I lean (no pun intended!) to the small passages in the carbs as Steve mentioned.


quote:


......if I had a nickle for everytime I did a carb job at someones house and used my mini tank to start and setup the bike, and before leaving telling the owner to dump the fuel and clean their tank.... and they didn't.... and the next day they call me....
id be rich...


ok, I have no idea how Steve has any hair left... I shave my head now, but last year had hair down to my azzz,,, now I know better.. :-X

 Bubba, tell them straight... I need to open a Northern carb service, hell. :-\

Luv ya bro, aand miss ya, but I cant say i miss the midnight phone calls.....
you need a raise... don't hold yer breath tho, i never got one..... :-[:great: :rotflmao: :rotflmao: :rotflmao: :rotflmao:


You are being ridiculous, and much like bad gas, diluting the effectiveness of the forum.  this post was nine miles long with zero help to the OP.  First of all, one tenth of a tank of bad gas is not going to destroy your bike nor effect its performance in any sort of significant manner. I just started an xl250r today with gas that survived 3 montana winters with no treatment and no starting.  it started on two kicks with the choke on.  the pilot jet was fully plugged.  no passage what so ever.  just an example there.  furthermore, motorcycle forums exist for the sharing of knowledge and for troubleshooting.  OP lined out his issues.  HANGING IDLE. WHEN HAS HANGING IDLE BEEN CAUSED BY BAD GAS?  answer: one time long long ago in a galaxy far far away where 60 year old men acted like high school girls attempting to troubleshoot bikes and used absolutely no logic whatsoever but stood by their good old pal the carb god who was omnicient and generous enough to tell them all that they were incapable of fixing their own bikes and that they should ship them off to him with a generous 300 dollar donation to have them cleaned.  i know im going to piss everybody off by saying this because hes helped so many people, myself included but at the same time im extremely put off by:

Lots of posting lately about vacuum leaks, which I have never seen to be the case. Historically carbs have been the bane of the concours owners for all times, and it will all go back to poorly maintained carbs. the next step for the concours owner, as in this case a self acknowledged novice, is to save money by taking the carbs apart and servicing themselves. i wouldn't say the results are mixed, i would say the results are more failure and damage to the previously undamaged carbs to boot.

This statement is garbage.  Are we trying to help each other here?  ive had a number of bikes and been on a number of forums.  If somebody is interested in fixing their own bike, they are capable.  I have seen many times people with no experience whatsoever successfully diagnose and repair issues of EVERY sort on their bikes and this is a priceless achievement.   this is the one forum that ive joined where there is a creepy cult like following of one man who sells carb jobs and 80 dollar jet kits to everybody on the forum.  Every other forum i have learned from has been just that, a learning resource.  If somebody has a problem, tell them how to fix it.  if they doubt themselves, tell them they can do it (within reason. which carbs ALWAYS are. absolutely NOT rocket science.) If they ask questions, answer them.  free exchange of knowledge.  This is why i join forums.  this is part of why i ride.  this is how i ride.  The C10 is an incredible machine and should be viewed as such. it should be appreciated to the fullest extent by each person who has the divine pleasure of owning one.

Sorry, Steve.  I love what you do, but it really grinds my gears when somebody discourages other people from working on their own carbs.  The carbs are the heart and soul of the bike, as you know, and nobody will ever truly know their bike if they are told by the proclaimed "carb guru" that they cant work on their own carbs.  and yes.  it does look like you are trying to "drum up" business.  You have many helpful youtube videos but when people have issues you become cryptic and discouraging. 

I'm outta here, but i wanted to send out a word of encouragement to those who are really interested in learning about their bikes and solving problems.  I would suggest trolling this site for write ups and joining a honda DOHC forum where people actually have a mind and passion for troubleshooting (they also have CV carbs, and people will help you troubleshoot instead of scolding you for not sending them to a "proffessional"). 

And to the OP: good luck.
Title: Re: new owner fuel problems
Post by: oaxaca on May 23, 2015, 08:44:37 am
And man of blues, running bad gas in a carb will not have an effect on the carb.  jesus.  The gas sitting and GOING bad in the carbs will leave deposits.  running the gas will absolutely not "re-foul" the carbs.  what are you even trying to imply? You are probably confusing Nable to the point that hes going to go out and buy an electric car so he can never have to worry about trying to understand this absolute nonsense that he is being bombarded with right now.

Sorry for ranting.  I'm my own worst enemy right now, but good lord, this is ridiculous.  If you don't know what you are talking about, put a disclaimer on your statement or dont make it.
Title: Re: new owner fuel problems
Post by: EZ on May 23, 2015, 09:57:33 am
every journey starts with a single step. If I can do it, anyone can. give it another go, but pay attention to the little stuff an be careful not to damage anything.  :great:  Steve

I' m confused. Just read the thread and normally there is really good info available here but I can not for the life of me figure how the above statement would qualify as "drum up" business? Can someone trouble shoot this for me please.   :rotflmao: :rotflmao:  jeesh
Title: Re: new owner fuel problems
Post by: Pbfoot on May 23, 2015, 03:41:00 pm
Let me add to the chaos: Broken return throttle cable? Broken-missing spring?
Title: Re: new owner fuel problems
Post by: Steve in Sunny Fla on May 23, 2015, 08:07:18 pm
    So let me respond.

  I was doing various concours upgrade work for years before I was asked to be the Tech Editor for COG.  I had previously slipped through the cracks because there's a rule that officers can't make any money from their position as a COG officer, and that it could be seen that the money I make working on Concours could conflict with that rule. But alas, COG scraped the bottom of the barrel, decided the rule didn't apply to me, with the caveat that I don't solicit work on the forums, so I don't. And yes, sometimes I'm cryptic in my posting because of that, but I fulfil the "warm body" part of the job description, so there is that.  ;)

   If you notice, I have never posted that you have to send your carbs to me... but many others here do post that, because I've done their carbs and they can speak from experience.

  I have however, posted many times that the most expensive carbs I fix are those "fixed" by an owner trying to save money. When I say stuff like "guitar strings and carb cleaner have messed up more carbs than I've fixed" it's not because there a problem with using guitar strings and carb cleaner, it's because misapplied, the results are permanent damage to your carbs, despite how well it was outlined in Rich's carb cleaning article.

   One thing I've learned in all the sales I've made is that most men are just like me... they read the directions after  they've messed up. That in mind, I've seen carbs messed up in ways I can't even fathom, or you would have ever imagined. I've seen carbs completely destroyed because of overtightened pilot screws blowing out the venturii's. . Carbs with 2,3,4 of the slide diaphrames destroyed  because the guy didn't know how to set the diaphram. Or diaphrams almost melted to jelly because the guy didn't know you can't get carb cleaner on the diaphrams. Diaphrams that cost 110.00 each to replace... yes those diaphrams. Bowl screws driven in to the point of cracking the bowls... should I continue?

    Oaxaca you may think my posts are "garbage" but my posts are completely truthful and express my own experiences of 10 years working on  and owning concours. You've sidestepped the fact that my upgrades work better than any factory jetting or the usefulness of adding overflow tubes to your carbs and distilled it to being we're all equal in our abilities here. Let me respond to you this way... I'm not a carpenter, or a surgeon, or a banker. I'm not good at those things, though some here may be good at those things. I'm a mechanic, and good at what I do. i will let my body of work over the years speak for me, and other concours owners will judge whether or not money spent with me is well spent or not.

  Let me ask you this, will you do what you do for a living free for me? will you teach me all the tricks it took you years to learn to make you good at what you do? Will you work for free because someone else thinks you should or are you going to hold something back because it's what makes your work valuable and sought after?

   No?  Then why do you ask that of me?

  Hopefully now you understand the cryptic nature of my posts. Also understand that after having done over 500 sets of concours carbs I know all the little places to pay attention to, and frankly it's what sets my work apart from anyone elses. It is part of what makes my work valuable, and no, I'm not going to "open source" it, so cryptic is the best you're gonna get.

Oh, and BTW, Man of Blues is a past Technical Editor. He wront the article we're talking about the "carbs, it ain't a diet thang" article . He's also cryptic, but he knows the c-10 and is a wealth of information, some of which I'm sure your benefited from.

   OK, hopefully you understand me better. Now I have to go back to not talking about what I do so I can keep my unpaid position  :-[... Steve
Title: Re: new owner fuel problems
Post by: MAN OF BLUES on May 23, 2015, 10:36:55 pm
thank you Steve.

Oax,
I never used the phrase "bad gas", read and note closely my words were "contaminated fuel"....
the "bad gas" was a direct quote from the o/p's posting, which I highlighted in my response. I think he knows what he did, and realized it in hindsight.
with that said, any "questionable fuel" has the opportunity to muck up a perfect set of carbs, especially if the contaminats are water, or waterbourn minute rust particles...

you really should not blast the people that have been assisting this group, for free, on a daily basis for many years.
we can all be wrong, and when we are we admit it, but when we have seen the same occurance litterally hundreds of times over a 13 year or more period, we get a little miffed when we are snubbed. We also try to wade thru all the misnomer advice or conjecture, because a lot of responses here are simply tossed out without firsthand knowledge of frequency and result.

sorry if I got yer hackles up, but frankly I don't charge for my opinions.
and I've fixed a couple Concours' in the past..... a couple.
Title: Re: new owner fuel problems
Post by: Steve in Sunny Fla on May 24, 2015, 12:26:41 am

 We also try to wade thru all the misnomer advice or conjecture, because a lot of responses here are simply tossed out without firsthand knowledge of frequency and result.


  Sad to say, but this quote is 110% accurate. The end result is someone looking for help ends up  falling for bad information. Often times bad information gets regurgitated again and again, til someone comes along and kills it.  Counter balancer shaft adjustment for vibration reduction comes to mind  - i think that went on for years, it was even published in chalkdust, but nobody ever questioned it.  ???  Steve
Title: Re: new owner fuel problems
Post by: PaulP on May 24, 2015, 12:33:48 am
I have to disagree with oaxaca here. We are not all capable of fixing everything that can go wrong on our machines. I knew that working on CV carbs was way over my head, so I sent them to an expert. But if I had to, I could easily rebuild the jbox. Hell, I could probably improve it. Different sets of skills. A man's gotta know his limitations, sez Dirty Harry. And he's right.

I suspect that oaxaca is mechanically inclined and has a lot of experience working on motorcycles, so he thinks it's not that hard. Everybody should be able to do it, right? Wrong. Just like any group, the people here represent a broad range of capabilities. Must of us can change the oil, but few can rebuild CV carbs, just like few can rebuild the jbox. If you find something that is beyond your ability to fix, then it would be smart to have someone else do it. And it would be even smarter it that someone had lots of experience at that task. I wonder of oaxaca fixes his own computer when it stops working...or does he bring it in to an expert?  :-\
Title: Re: new owner fuel problems
Post by: Jim Snyder on May 24, 2015, 03:57:06 am
There is an easy solution to this problem. First, pull the carbs off. Second, send them to Steve.
Third, get them back re-install and problem solved. See that was easy.
Title: Re: new owner fuel problems
Post by: Mettler1 on May 24, 2015, 03:52:38 pm
There is an easy solution to this problem. First, pull the carbs off. Second, send them to Steve.
Third, get them back re-install and problem solved. See that was easy.
  Worked for me !! :)
Title: Re: new owner fuel problems
Post by: Spanner on May 25, 2015, 03:22:29 am
Wow !.. I know I'm a complete nubie here but could we get back to trying to actually help this OP ?

If you did not unscrew the slow and main jets and the main jet emulsion tube then the carb cleaning you have done is not affective . You must take those pieces out and verify they are clear thru' and the emulsion holes ( side holes ) are clear. If the emulsion holes in the slow and main jets are blocked, then the 'solid' gas being pulled out of the slow jet may easily be enough to cause the engine to race even with the slides bottomed out ( idle ). I have seen that condition several times on bikes. :(