Author Topic: New-to-me toy STARTS  (Read 1099 times)

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Offline dcstrng

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New-to-me toy STARTS
« on: June 23, 2019, 07:51:22 pm »
Boy, do I feel like I'm in foreign territory... My `99 ZG1000  hasn't been started in two weeks(it was running nicely then...), but can't make the rascal even pop -- usually I can make an engine at least sputter, but this appears to be sending me the universal single digit salute... the previous owner seems to have left the petcock in the "Res" position, but from what I read that isn't usually an issue.  It turns over nicely (ran the battery down a bit on the first attempt, but recharged it...).  Neutral light on with key, behaves like it is in neutral (I can push it easily), clutch in and kickstand up -- have tried the choke all sorts of ways...
It occurred to me this afternoon that in 300K or so riding, I've never owned a bike with more than two cylinders, so where do I start looking... I realize this doesn't give anyone much to go on, but it was running just fine a couple weeks ago, so what are likely avenues (yep, I'd sure guess it is operator error... but goodness, now what...). :??:
Thanks...
« Last Edit: July 13, 2019, 04:16:05 pm by dcstrng »
-- Larry
Worry -- Misuse of imagination...

Offline Harry Martin

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Re: New-to-me toy won't start...
« Reply #1 on: June 23, 2019, 07:55:57 pm »
Is there enough juice to make the starter turn?
It's possible for the neutral lite to be lit, but not enough to crank the starter.
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Offline KonKours

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Re: New-to-me toy won't start...
« Reply #2 on: June 23, 2019, 08:32:27 pm »
Did you try starting with the petcock position in the PRI position?
- Kevin

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Offline RWulf

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Re: New-to-me toy won't start...
« Reply #3 on: June 23, 2019, 09:03:20 pm »
Make sure you have gas, and use the pri position on the pet c***.
The battery must maintain more than 10 volts while cranking, if
not no spark. ( I think it's 10 volts) I have always been confused
about the position of the KILL switch so try it both ways.

Offline batboy

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Re: New-to-me toy won't start...
« Reply #4 on: June 24, 2019, 12:36:24 am »
You need fuel and spark to run. I'd put some gas in the tank just to make sure. Then check to see if you're getting spark to the plugs.
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Offline cra-z1000

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Re: New-to-me toy won't start...
« Reply #5 on: June 24, 2019, 02:21:48 am »
Start in prime as suggested but also take a look at the fuel line . It's easy for it to kink under the tank and cut off the flow . Be sure to return the petcock to run once she starts....if she starts .
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Offline MoRe

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Re: New-to-me toy won't start...
« Reply #6 on: June 24, 2019, 05:35:24 am »
Flip the run switch to on  :-[

Offline dcstrng

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Re: New-to-me toy won't start...
« Reply #7 on: June 24, 2019, 09:19:55 am »
Flip the run switch to on  :-[

Yep, I’m hoping for something just that simple/stupid – pretty sure the handlebar switch is “on,” but I’ll check again – from what I read, I was nervous about leaving the petcock on prime for more than a second or two… but thanks for all the suggestions… clearly I don’t know the secret handshake yet, but at least I’ve gotten used to “walking” the bike up and down the driveway.

Am really not sure about all those key locks – the bike is clean and polished with very little dust under the Tupperware, but the locks are universally corroded (except triple-tree ignition).  Think that may be one of my first projects is to de-key this rascal (I live in a neighborhood where locking cars/houses is optional and my last two bikes ran nicely for many years without keys… I find them to be a bother).  But big thanks for the checklist, I’ll backtrack and retrace my steps… I obviously missed something…
-- Larry
Worry -- Misuse of imagination...

Offline cornponious

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Re: New-to-me toy won't start...
« Reply #8 on: June 25, 2019, 07:23:38 pm »
So how did it go?

Offline bowtie39

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Re: New-to-me toy won't start...
« Reply #9 on: June 25, 2019, 10:20:01 pm »
Flip the run switch to on  :-[
Would have to go check myself but when that kill switch is flipped to kill the bike it won't even make a sound.  Have had some "friends" pull that trick on me. 

Offline MAN OF BLUES

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Re: New-to-me toy won't start...
« Reply #10 on: June 25, 2019, 11:31:56 pm »
well, it will NOT turnover with the kill switch in off, or the kickstand (switch) down with the bike in gear, or even if the clutch interlock switch is "stuck.. all 3 prevent it from "cranking" so move past that, if it cranks...

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Offline LeeM

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Re: New-to-me toy won't start...
« Reply #11 on: June 30, 2019, 04:01:21 am »
I had a new-to-me Connie won't start experience when I completely filled the tank with no-brand convenience store gasoline. Then I drove 20 miles, parked the bike for 5 hours and it would not start with pure "no fuel" symptoms. One of two things happened: the change in California gasoline seasonal blend caused the carburetor neoprene tip float valves or the vacuum petcock o ring seal to swell up.   The other thing is I was flipping the fuel petcock lever every now and then and I think the fuel petcock is doomed to leak if you burn modern gasoline that sometimes has a ketone chemical added.

Buried in all the verbiage that follows are some simple tests for your 4 cylinder almost automotive wonder bike. First, look for fuel by opening the drain to the leftmost carburetor. Drain the fuel into a little plastic cup and look for a pinhead of water. Look at the fuel petcock  with a bright flashlight and look for signs of leakage. Operate the choke lever and observe the sliding bar on the carburetors move. I lashed the brass pin on carburetor #1 with a plastic bag tie to the sliding bar, which helps my choke work OK in California. Try cranking the engine. Did the float bowl for carburetor #1 refill? The vacuum petcock is a diaphragm and an O-ring driven by the diaphragm. A gentle vacuum is supposed to pull the diaphragm and let fuel flow.

As the story in the following post goes, I focused on the carburetor parts swelling. Months later, thanks to a fuel petcock leak that made my boots stink but I could never see a fuel leak when I looked for a leak with the engine off I blame the vacuum petcock for failing to open when the engine starts. I have decided the prime run petcock lever should never be moved. I rebuilt the petcock with a murph's kits kit and I tested the vacuum valve on the workbench with a hand held mechanics vacuum pump. These days my fuel petcock is always at R for reserve and I buy gasoline by the tripmeter every 100 to 120 miles.

Here are things to look at, the Connie is basically a minature car with a mickey mouse fuel valve inherited from the old motorcycle world. The manometer described below will prove to you if the float bowls are being starved. Observe the sliding bar of the carburetor choke linkage and see if the extreme left carburetor is still having it's brass pin moved when you apply choke from the handlebar control. Look at the vacuum fuel valve petcock and see if you can make tests and confirm if the petcock valve opens and releases fuel when the engine first starts running.

http://forum.cog-online.org/concours-c10-zg1000-general-chat-and-tech/float-bowl-manometer-shows-how-'summer-gasoline-blend'-affected-my-2000-connie/?topicseen

Offline dcstrng

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Re: New-to-me toy won't start...
« Reply #12 on: July 01, 2019, 10:03:14 am »
Lee; thanks for the comprehensive check-list… I went out and bought some non-ethanol gas yesterday, but got sidetracked arguing with a recalcitrant garage door opener and never got back to it.  Am not fond of vacuum petcocks – Harley has a somewhat similar one, but there the get-home solution is to reverse the failing diaphragm, can be done on the road once you figure out what the issue is – and hydro-locking isn’t an issue… The long term solution on my Evo was the Pringle petcock (I think I saw someone makes an adapter for it on the Connie...)

Thanks again, I’ll get back at this…
-- Larry
Worry -- Misuse of imagination...

Offline turbojoe78_MA

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Re: New-to-me toy won't start...
« Reply #13 on: July 02, 2019, 06:16:14 pm »
Lee, there are different schools of thought on wether to exercise the petcock regularly or just leave it in one position.

My experience was that I rode the bike till I hit reserve and then moved the petcock to reserve and filled it up every time.  I bought my 99 in Sept. of 2008 with 13,500 miles on it.  I replaced the petcock with a new one when the Diaphragm started leaking in 2015 with 52,000 miles on it and sold it in 2018 with over 60,000 miles.  YMMV.
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Offline DC Concours

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Re: New-to-me toy won't start...
« Reply #14 on: July 02, 2019, 06:51:13 pm »
Just like your home water shut off valves you need to exercise them every now and then. Else when you need them they are stuck or spring a leak.

Offline Rev Ryder

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Re: New-to-me toy won't start...
« Reply #15 on: July 03, 2019, 07:47:38 pm »
Is the air filter properly seated in the airbox?  If it is removed or not sealing OR if the airbox is cracked in a place that creates a large airbox leak, it creates a lean condition that may (or may not) prevent starting and proper operation when running.  Just one other free thing that's easy to check.
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Offline dcstrng

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Re: New-to-me toy won't start...
« Reply #16 on: July 05, 2019, 01:45:35 pm »
Okay, this rascal is really beginning to annoy me – except for a 2-cycle outboard that had sat outside for too many winters, never had an engine play this hard to get… I’m a tad preoccupied with another project so haven’t’ given it my full attention, but I put fresh non-ethanol gas in it yesterday and it still wasn’t cooperative – I may go buy a fresh battery, since a couple 2-3 second cranks seems to drain it… I’d prefer to just be badly embarrassed that I’m not doing something really, really obvious – called the former owner who had started it twice before I bought it – no drama for him at all, never a stumble or even a cough; but telling him what I was doing it sounded right to him…

Hate to start tearing Tupperware off the bike when it was so obviously running just moments before I trailered it down here… Eee-gads… but at this rate, unobstructed filter and presence of spark seem to be the next things…  :truce:
-- Larry
Worry -- Misuse of imagination...

Offline Bud

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Re: New-to-me toy won't start...
« Reply #17 on: July 05, 2019, 06:25:00 pm »
A couple of 2-3 second cranks should not drain the battery. 
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Offline DC Concours

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Re: New-to-me toy won't start...
« Reply #18 on: July 05, 2019, 06:27:14 pm »
That's right.

Your have a bad battery if it dies with only a few cranks. And if it is not electrical then it is your carbs.

Online konehead

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Re: New-to-me toy won't start...
« Reply #19 on: July 05, 2019, 10:11:47 pm »
J-box.....had  this happen on my 98 c10. J-box had an internal arc/short, which opened up one if the traces on the circuit board.  I had too much plugged into the accessory leads, causing too much current draw.  So new/used jbox, installed and all was well.  And yes I added a separate switched fuse box for the extra electric farkles.. 

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Re: New-to-me toy won't start...
« Reply #20 on: July 08, 2019, 04:36:07 pm »
You can bypass the J-box.

Did you check for spark?  If you have spark it is not the J-box
Did you drain the fuel bowls in a clean glass and look for dirt/water?
When you crank the engine what does the exhaust smell like- Raw gas maybe?    Rotten gas maybe?
Volt meter on the battery before you start cranking it?

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Offline dcstrng

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Re: New-to-me toy won't start...
« Reply #21 on: July 08, 2019, 05:44:46 pm »
Bought a new battery -- the old one wasn't old, time-wise, but didn't appear very energetic... Gas passes the smell test, but who knows...

Haven't gotten to the spark yet (was working on my truck), then ran out of day-time, and had the charger on the new battery to top it off...

Thanks...
« Last Edit: July 08, 2019, 06:44:42 pm by dcstrng »
-- Larry
Worry -- Misuse of imagination...

Offline dcstrng

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Re: New-to-me toy won't start...
« Reply #22 on: July 09, 2019, 09:29:39 am »
Well, the new battery certainly turned the motor over much more energetically -- and maybe it is my imagination, but it seemed like it was trying to catch...  But...

Turned the petcock to prime for about 30-seconds -- there is certainly fresh gas in it, but I guess we'll have to try something a bit more intrusive...  can't imagine why a one-hour trip on a trailer would suddenly cause all of this -- we rode it onto the trailer, but pushed it into the shop manually -- hasn't run since...

Perplexing...
-- Larry
Worry -- Misuse of imagination...

Offline batboy

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Re: New-to-me toy won't start...
« Reply #23 on: July 09, 2019, 11:39:45 am »
You need to check for spark before doing too much more.

Since this bike is new to you, are you using the choke and if so, how much? These bikes usually need to have the choke about halfway on if they sit for a couple of days. In cold weather, you might need more choke. My experience is too little choke and it won't fire. Too much choke and it'll flood. Technically, our bikes don't have a choke, it's an enrichener, but it'll always be a choke to me.
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Bike has the usual accessories and modifications

Offline dcstrng

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Re: New-to-me toy won't start...
« Reply #24 on: July 09, 2019, 12:07:05 pm »
My experience is too little choke and it won't fire. Too much choke and it'll flood...

Last night I had very little choke on (I'd guess less that 1/4).  I'll fiddle with this a bit more with alternate settings -- I really didn't want to dive inside the Tupperware yet... but we'll see...

Thx...
-- Larry
Worry -- Misuse of imagination...