Author Topic: New waterpump oil seal leak  (Read 720 times)

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Offline TnRider

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New waterpump oil seal leak
« on: June 10, 2018, 03:50:40 pm »
I read the posts and Tech pages on replacing the water pump since mine began leaking oil.  I did try to remove the new seal to apply the red Loctite but was afraid of tearing it up to get it out.  Opinions varied on whether to take it out to apply the Loctite or apply it on the seal without removing it.  I did not apply any red Loctite on the seal. Installed the new water pump.  A small oil leak was noted on the kickstand.  I hoped that it was just extra oil but of course that was not the case.

Removed the new water pump and seal. Found oil behind the seal (picture).  The seal looked like it was pushed in good but apparently not.  I had ordered a new seal, O-ring and gasket ahead of time to possibly repair the old pump (old pump bearings were catching so not an option). So I used these new seals and O-rings just in case and applied the red Loctite after making sure the seal was pushed all of the way in.

As a side note, I recommend draining the oil as well as the antifreeze prior to water pump removal.  I know that some people say draining the oil is not necessary but in my case it flowed rapidly onto my garage floor (and I only used 3 quarts during oil and filter change).

Pictures: #1 old water pump oil leak
              #2 oil crud in new water pump after I removed the seal for inspection
              #3 new seal installed in new water pump

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Re: New waterpump oil seal leak
« Reply #1 on: June 10, 2018, 06:55:08 pm »
when you replace that lip seal, you have to really clean out the area behind it using brakekleen, and blow it out with compressed air... some oil is always trapped back there, and will make it appear as if the new seal is leaking.. it usually isn't leaking, it takes about 50-100 miles of running to evacuate the trapped oil, which panics folks..
also, when you install the seal, using the Loctite product, use the Red "bearing and seal" loc gel, not just Red Loctite.. apply the gel to the outer perimeter of the seal, the outside diameter that mates with the hole.. use a good coating, and press it home. Let that setup overnight, using a moderate heat source like a lightbulb, to assist it to set.
adding the LocTite to the outside of the seal won't do anything once its pushed in, it won't wick into the crevices..
best of luck, ride safe.

30 YEARS OF KAW.....Rich R. (the other one..)  COG 5977  JUSTAMEMBAHNOW
and if you are gonna call me names... it's MR. Analdweeb if you please...

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Re: New waterpump oil seal leak
« Reply #2 on: June 10, 2018, 07:43:03 pm »
Unless the seal is loose will trying to get a new seal removed tear it up? I had the same issue when I  got a new pump. I tried to remove the seal and loctite it but it was pressed in too tight. So I left it alone.

Offline TnRider

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Re: New waterpump oil seal leak
« Reply #3 on: June 10, 2018, 08:32:08 pm »
DC,
When I removed the seal from the new water pump after it had leaked it did not tear it up.  I used a curved pick to pull it up but it probably wasn't tight.

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Re: New waterpump oil seal leak
« Reply #4 on: June 11, 2018, 12:48:23 am »
the actual cup seal itself, is pretty much coated over the metalic 'cup' in rubber, I have removed and reinstalled new and old, from new and old pumps, very easily with a sharp dentist pick as described above, by sticking it into the rubber on the inside rubber coated surface of said 'cup' and prying it upwards.. never found any that resisted extraction yet.. and that, in essence is the major issue...
the O.D. of the rubber coated seal, and the replacements, are not sized to provide an adequate friction fit, to prevent them from popping out.
 placing a new or replacement seal, face down, on an anvil or other hard surface, and setting an appropriatly sized socket, or otherwise tubelike tool inside the groove, and smacking it with a hammer to expand the metal cup's O.D. so it actually grips when inserted (i.e. needs some force, and tapping) insures it will be retained afterwards.

this is a foible that I found straight off, when i found the first of many popped out good seals. 90% of were actually good seals (sealed fine on the shaft), just needed to be expanded to grip and not pop out of the pump bore.

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and if you are gonna call me names... it's MR. Analdweeb if you please...

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Re: New waterpump oil seal leak
« Reply #5 on: June 11, 2018, 01:44:46 am »
Gentlemen, I used my dental pick and tried to dislodge it by applying the pick under the center lip just above the spring. No go. I also tried to poke the seal from the outer edge where you see the red locktite in the pic. No go. I was applying too much pressure and didn't want to tear or lacerate it. So I gave up.

MOB, what metal are you talking about? Is the black rubber of the seal covering up a metal skeleton inside?

As you may remember my pump was shot and needed full replacement. I wanted to locktite the seal in the new pump before install.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/he5d46wsyhy5d0w/20160813_200514.mp4?dl=0


Offline Nosmo

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Re: New waterpump oil seal leak
« Reply #6 on: June 11, 2018, 04:10:59 am »
Crap....I put in a new water pump last winter and didn't do the Loctite on the seal.  So far now signs of leakage,

Oh, well, I guess I needed a summer project...........
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Re: New waterpump oil seal leak
« Reply #7 on: June 11, 2018, 04:13:44 am »
Leave it alone.

Crap....I put in a new water pump last winter and didn't do the Loctite on the seal.  So far now signs of leakage,

Oh, well, I guess I needed a summer project...........

Offline Bob_C_CT

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Re: New waterpump oil seal leak
« Reply #8 on: June 11, 2018, 09:06:02 am »
I replaced my water pump two years ago because of coolant drip. This was before I heard of the preemptive seal fix, so far so good, I'm not fixing it unless I get oil coming out of the weep hole or find myself working on something in the off season where I expose the water pump.

MOB when the seals pop out all you have to worry about is maintaining oil level and the dealing with the leaking oil on the exhaust pipe before you get to fixing the seal (on a trip), right?
In other words, no coolant contamination in the oil or oil getting in the coolant, and the weep hole only drips and isn't a steady stream of oil.
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Offline TnRider

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Re: New waterpump oil seal leak
« Reply #9 on: June 11, 2018, 11:06:19 am »
DC,
I read your post as well as others before I took off my worn water pump.  I too tried to get the seal out of the new water pump and was afraid to keep trying for fear of tearing it up so I didn't apply Loctite thinking that it was tight.  I was wrong and developed another oil leak with the new pump.  Since I had another new seal that had just arrived in the mail I was not afraid of tearing up the one that was in the new pump and found that doing as MOB said with a curved pick and pulling up one side at a time did the trick.  Still took a lot of pulling at first but like most of these jobs once you really commit to it you can get it done. I did use a socket to try to widen the seal but I was tentative with pounding on it so I can't say whether I was successful.

Bob,
As far as the question to MOB about riding with the oil leak, depends on your oil leak I'd say based on previous posts that I read.  I had a leak long before I could actually see where it was coming from.  I would occasionally get a whiff of the smell of burning oil but couldn't figure out where it was coming from even with the plastic off.  I read about looking at the weep hole on the water pump and should have looked there but I was in denial and really didn't want to fool with the water pump.  So I convinced myself that it wasn't leaking oil. It wasn't until I took my 3500 mile trip that I saw oil on my kickstand and knew at that point. Nothing like good ole denial is there?  I'd say my leak began around 38,000 miles on my bike.

I don't enjoy riding my bike unless it is the way I want it so I bit the bullet and replaced the water pump.  It's not a hard job, just have to commit to it.  Just like MOB had said in a previous post, once you do it one time it becomes a lot easier.

Offline Bob_C_CT

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Re: New waterpump oil seal leak
« Reply #10 on: June 11, 2018, 12:29:41 pm »
Yea, TN Rider, I was in denial about the occasional smell of coolant until it got were I could see a puff of steam with the bike sitting/idling about every 15 seconds or so for every drip of coolant that would hit the exhaust from the weep hole. Then I was convinced it was time to change the water pump out.
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Re: New waterpump oil seal leak
« Reply #11 on: June 11, 2018, 07:36:43 pm »
Gentlemen, I used my dental pick and tried to dislodge it by applying the pick under the center lip just above the spring. No go. I also tried to poke the seal from the outer edge where you see the red locktite in the pic. No go. I was applying too much pressure and didn't want to tear or lacerate it. So I gave up.

MOB, what metal are you talking about? Is the black rubber of the seal covering up a metal skeleton inside?

As you may remember my pump was shot and needed full replacement. I wanted to locktite the seal in the new pump before install.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/he5d46wsyhy5d0w/20160813_200514.mp4?dl=0

yes, the seal is actually a cup shaped metal part, that has the rubber vulcanized on to the metalic cup, with the addition of that spring to force the rubber lip to seal. The vulcanized rubber coats the complete metal cup, and is pretty thin, just thick enough to effect an "external" seal on the the bore it's pressed into. That "cup" can be "flared" slightly, as I noted, by finding a socket that fits the open end, and tapping it carefully into that end to get expanded about .002"-.004" larger O.D., (measure before and during the flare process) which provides a much tighter fit, and prevents it from popping out. I do it to every "new" seal just as insurance.
Best of luck,

30 YEARS OF KAW.....Rich R. (the other one..)  COG 5977  JUSTAMEMBAHNOW
and if you are gonna call me names... it's MR. Analdweeb if you please...

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Re: New waterpump oil seal leak
« Reply #12 on: June 11, 2018, 07:43:53 pm »
Yea, TN Rider, I was in denial about the occasional smell of coolant until it got were I could see a puff of steam with the bike sitting/idling about every 15 seconds or so for every drip of coolant that would hit the exhaust from the weep hole. Then I was convinced it was time to change the water pump out.

when you get coolant leaking, replace the waterpump.
the seal I have been speaking about is simply an oil seal, and is external to the "water area", it just keeps engine oil in the engine, and never really see's any amount of liquid oil, unless the oil in the crankcase is over filled... most times, that is the cause that initiates them to pop out. Well, that, and the fact wayyyyy back when the seal was spec'd out, it wasn't really a good fit, and needed a "tighter" hole to make it reliable...(easy boys...) :rotflmao:

30 YEARS OF KAW.....Rich R. (the other one..)  COG 5977  JUSTAMEMBAHNOW
and if you are gonna call me names... it's MR. Analdweeb if you please...

Offline TnRider

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Re: New waterpump oil seal leak
« Reply #13 on: June 23, 2018, 06:00:41 pm »
OCD strikes again!

I used regular Red Loctite when putting the oil seal back in the water pump so I was concerned that it would not be adequate.  I did read MOB's statement about some residual oil may be present from the water pump pushing out the old oil. 

But...after 300 miles I still had a small amount of oil reappear on my kick stand. >:(

So...I removed the water pump again.  I had to heat up the seal before prying it free and there was no oil behind the seal this time.  So the regular Red Loctite seemed to be adequate.  It must have just been like MOB stated, some residual oil being pushed out even after 300 miles.   :-[

This time I did find that a 17 mm socket fit properly to expand the seal for a better fit and I used the bearing and seal product this time as well.  It is currently curing under a light. :beerchug:

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Re: New waterpump oil seal leak
« Reply #14 on: June 24, 2018, 07:23:08 pm »
when you replace that lip seal, you have to really clean out the area behind it using brakekleen, and blow it out with compressed air... some oil is always trapped back there, and will make it appear as if the new seal is leaking.. it usually isn't leaking, it takes about 50-100 miles of running to evacuate the trapped oil, which panics folks..
also, when you install the seal, using the Loctite product, use the Red "bearing and seal" loc gel, not just Red Loctite.. apply the gel to the outer perimeter of the seal, the outside diameter that mates with the hole.. use a good coating, and press it home. Let that setup overnight, using a moderate heat source like a lightbulb, to assist it to set.
adding the LocTite to the outside of the seal won't do anything once its pushed in, it won't wick into the crevices..
best of luck, ride safe.

yeah, I know how people panic, well, in reality I can't blame them at all...
the first one I did, I didn't do a good enough job removing the trapped oil... and it freaked me out... but, as time was of the essence, and the drip had been greatly reduced to a point I was not worried, I let it go for a couple hundred miles... as I was on a long ride, and checked it periodically, finding it had finally stopped...
On subsequent repairs on my other conni, and other folks bikes, I did a much more aggressive 'cleaning', and found those to be fine in the 100 mile zone, after refurb. No matter how good you clean them, there will be some trapped... don't know why, just what it is...

best of luck on your work, let us know the final outcome.

30 YEARS OF KAW.....Rich R. (the other one..)  COG 5977  JUSTAMEMBAHNOW
and if you are gonna call me names... it's MR. Analdweeb if you please...

Offline TnRider

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Re: New waterpump oil seal leak
« Reply #15 on: June 25, 2018, 10:00:48 am »
No longer any oil being pushed out of water pump. :beerchug:

I did have a frustrating time with coolant leakage though.  Found that I had cut the rubber gasket of the body of the water pump when I put the pump back together after installation.  >:(  I had another gasket and this time installed the water pump as one piece.

Practice Makes Perfect :motonoises:

Offline TnRider

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Re: New waterpump oil seal leak
« Reply #16 on: June 30, 2018, 12:49:27 pm »
After 1800 mile round trip to Iowa (tried to get to Glacier National Park but weather prevented) bike performed flawlessly. No oil or coolant drips!

East of Kansas City, MO on Tuesday, 6-26, I had to stop on a side road and hold onto my bike while a tornado hit nearby! So nice to know that your bike is not going to let you down if you maintain it right.

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Re: New waterpump oil seal leak
« Reply #17 on: June 30, 2018, 05:25:03 pm »
After 1800 mile round trip to Iowa (tried to get to Glacier National Park but weather prevented) bike performed flawlessly. No oil or coolant drips!

East of Kansas City, MO on Tuesday, 6-26, I had to stop on a side road and hold onto my bike while a tornado hit nearby! So nice to know that your bike is not going to let you down if you maintain it right.

glad to hear it all worked out for you, and also glad you had the faith to believe in what I explained, and patiently allowed for the result... good to go now, and you did it yourself, and saved the cost of a new pump.
win win... :motonoises: :great: :great:

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and if you are gonna call me names... it's MR. Analdweeb if you please...

Offline cornponious

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Re: New waterpump oil seal leak
« Reply #18 on: July 15, 2018, 11:13:54 am »
 The problem with the seal on the water pump and oil getting past it and leaking out the weep hole seems to be pretty common. I have a thought about that then I would like to share with you guys to get your opinion. I’ve noticed that when selling the bike on its side stand, the seal would most likely be submerged in hot engine oil.  My thinking is that overtime this would cause the seal to prematurely dry out and harden. And I feel this would intern be a cause of leaking.

This is why I have decided to always park my bike on the center stand, which would ensure the standing oil level would be below where the water pump seal is positioned. Any thoughts on this?

Offline TnRider

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Re: New waterpump oil seal leak
« Reply #19 on: July 15, 2018, 12:31:16 pm »
I did always park my bike on the center stand when it would be parked for long periods of time (after local rides). Water pump oil leak still happened. 

I believe the oil seal on the water pump is still in engine oil when on the center stand as evidenced by my garage floor when I removed the pump without draining the oil first (3 quarts with filter replacement). >:(
« Last Edit: July 15, 2018, 01:02:53 pm by TnRider »

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Re: New waterpump oil seal leak
« Reply #20 on: July 15, 2018, 06:35:28 pm »
The problem with the seal on the water pump and oil getting past it and leaking out the weep hole seems to be pretty common. I have a thought about that then I would like to share with you guys to get your opinion. I’ve noticed that when selling the bike on its side stand, the seal would most likely be submerged in hot engine oil.  My thinking is that overtime this would cause the seal to prematurely dry out and harden. And I feel this would intern be a cause of leaking.

This is why I have decided to always park my bike on the center stand, which would ensure the standing oil level would be below where the water pump seal is positioned. Any thoughts on this?

that really has no bearing on the longevity of that seal whatsoever.
Having serviced dozens of them, they simply 'pop out' of position 99% of the time, and the actual 'seal' is damage free. It stems from the seal "cup" and imensions, being just a tad loose of the desired size to retain it with a firm press fit.

I did always park my bike on the center stand when it would be parked for long periods of time (after local rides). Water pump oil leak still happened. 

I believe the oil seal on the water pump is still in engine oil when on the center stand as evidenced by my garage floor when I removed the pump without draining the oil first (3 quarts with filter replacement). >:(

if you look closely at the oil level "window", and draw an imaginary horizontal line forward, you will see that the shaft does not really sit fully submerged, so rule that out... there may be 'slung' oil on that shaft, but there should never be a large quantity of oil, that dumps out during pump removal on the center stand, especially if you stick a 2x4 under the front tire, with the bike on the centerstand, to level it out....
If more than a few ounces pour out (if even that much), that engine was overfilled from the start, and I have see overfilled engines puke that seal out in a higher incidence % than engines correctly filled, or low on oil.

30 YEARS OF KAW.....Rich R. (the other one..)  COG 5977  JUSTAMEMBAHNOW
and if you are gonna call me names... it's MR. Analdweeb if you please...

Offline TnRider

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Re: New waterpump oil seal leak
« Reply #21 on: July 15, 2018, 06:39:41 pm »
As I said earlier, I had 3 quarts of oil in the bike after my previous oil and filter change.  It was not over filled. And oil did come out after I removed the water pump without draining the oil first since I had read earlier that it might not be necessary. Other authors stated that it was necessary to drain the oil first which is correct.

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Re: New waterpump oil seal leak
« Reply #22 on: July 15, 2018, 06:48:30 pm »
I won't argue with you about it, but I said a "small amount", I can't see how 3 quarts drained out, or even a cup, as I said, I've pulled a bunch, and yeah, some comes out, but not 3 quarts...
see the attached photo, it shows what I'm saying about the Oil window in relation to the actual water pump.
« Last Edit: July 15, 2018, 06:51:38 pm by MAN OF BLUES »

30 YEARS OF KAW.....Rich R. (the other one..)  COG 5977  JUSTAMEMBAHNOW
and if you are gonna call me names... it's MR. Analdweeb if you please...

Offline TnRider

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Re: New waterpump oil seal leak
« Reply #23 on: July 15, 2018, 07:05:04 pm »
I never said 3 quarts came out. I said that I had 3 quarts in it following the last oil change including the filter.  Seems like I remember someone complaining about their posts being misinterpreted.  :))

I defer to your expertise as you have helped me and countless others.  I thank you.
« Last Edit: July 15, 2018, 07:09:48 pm by TnRider »

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Re: New waterpump oil seal leak
« Reply #24 on: July 15, 2018, 07:49:48 pm »
I never said 3 quarts came out. I said that I had 3 quarts in it following the last oil change including the filter.  Seems like I remember someone complaining about their posts being misinterpreted.  :))

I defer to your expertise as you have helped me and countless others.  I thank you.

all good, and you are always welcome for any assist I can provide, that eases a job.
I was thinking about what you said in post #19, and also thinking how many times we have had people ask us about overfilled crankcases (100's), when they poured in the specified amount,
because they didn't know, or were told, that there were 2 drain bolts/plugs, and only drained from one, before filling with 3 quarts... Not saying you did that either, just relating as some folks still don't know that...

a little oil on a garage floor (always looks like a lot, when it really isn't), is just another "Red Badge of Courage", when like mechanics see it... tells them you actually work on stuff... so it's good... that's what they make Kitty Litter for, to soak up "man spills"...
 :)) :beerchug: :great:

30 YEARS OF KAW.....Rich R. (the other one..)  COG 5977  JUSTAMEMBAHNOW
and if you are gonna call me names... it's MR. Analdweeb if you please...