Author Topic: Ninja Edition project  (Read 1610 times)

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Offline batboy

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Ninja Edition project
« on: July 07, 2019, 07:25:45 pm »
Everyone knows the Concours 1000 has a detuned Ninja engine. I'm in the process of reversing the detuning. Specifically, the differences in the ZG1000 Concours and ZX1000A Ninja are mainly cams, carburetors and exhaust.

Everyone and their mother has try to talk me out of this project. I know it's been done before and I know this will move the power peak up into a higher rpm range. Let's proceed.

Tuning/jetting: I have an A/F ratio gauge and wideband installed (just need to have a bung welded into the exhaust). Most of the tuning will be done after the performance parts are installed.

Cams: This has already been done. I recently installed a ZX1000A intake cam. I paired it up with the existing stock ZG1000 exhaust cam.

36mm carbs: I have a set of ZX1000A carbs that I have cleaned and rebuilt. It's ready to be installed whenever I want.

Headers/exhaust: That is my next goal, upgrading the exhaust system. I have two Ninja headers that I'm trying to figure out how to fit. The stock header pipes are 32mm. The racing header I have has 38mm primaries and the Kerker header has 35mm diameter header pipes.

The first one I got last fall is a racing 4-1 header with big primaries (Hines & Vance clone I think). The trouble is the lower part of the radiator would need to be moved forward at least 1 inch. The large collector runs under the bike which severely decreases clearance (bike is lowered) and blocks the oil filter. I've concluded this header will be a greater challenge than I want.

I recently got a complete Kerker exhaust system that was on a GPz900R Ninja. The muffler is in sad shape, but the 4-2-1 header and mid pipe are in good condition. I set the header up next to the bike and see it will be a much better fit. BUT... the lower part of the radiator will still need to swing up and forward about a 1/2 inch. The rest should fit okay. It's possible I might even be able to refit the middle and lower fairing with minor modifications. I'm currently removing the old exhaust. I think I might need to remove the radiator too.
« Last Edit: July 07, 2019, 07:37:37 pm by batboy »
1988 Kawasaki Concours ZG1000 - Ninja Edition
Bike has the usual accessories and modifications

Offline Daytona_Mike

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Re: Ninja Edition project
« Reply #1 on: July 07, 2019, 09:10:45 pm »
A word of advice.
 It is always a good idea to get a baseline Dyno run before you proceed. That way when you find out a lot of what your doing has been done already you will understand  why after doing more dyno runs.  You maybe doing  some head scratching after some of your mods.  I do give you credit for trying.  There is a ton of experience  in this forum that you can draw on... or not.
 I have done some of  what you have done. Dyno runs are  an eye opener.What works on other bikes does or may not work on this engine.  Good luck  :beerchug: :beerchug: :great:

Also, The C10 is NOT a detuned engine.   It is Retuned for more torque to handle a heavier bike. 
Normally aspirated engines have perpetual turbo lag
2000 Red C10 1052 kit 100+HP  + way more torque.
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Offline works4me

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Re: Ninja Edition project
« Reply #2 on: July 07, 2019, 09:30:46 pm »
Or, just add 100# to a ZX1000A and see how you like it first.
Large, heavy bikes with no bottom end are no fun to ride,
especially with a passenger.
Notice how every iteration of the Gold Wing gets more grunt?
It too, started out as Honda’s Superbike. JS

Offline connie_rider

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Re: Ninja Edition project
« Reply #3 on: July 07, 2019, 11:19:04 pm »
The Kerker exhaust system you show appear to be a set of Ontario Headers like Jim Snyder used.
  {If their not Ontario, they are "very" similar}

The fix is; {dyno tested}
               Cut the 4 head pipes off near the 2 "Y's", then carefully fit and replace them with stock Connie head pipes.
                 {(for slightly more flow) Grind the bulge/restriction out of the Connie head pipes at the inlets}
               If you do this, they will fit, and clear all the plastic, but will not allow the center stand.

I'll try to post photo's of my Ontario's.

Ride safe, Ted
« Last Edit: July 08, 2019, 01:27:02 pm by connie_rider »
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Offline batboy

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Re: Ninja Edition project
« Reply #4 on: July 08, 2019, 01:29:24 am »
The closest MC dyno is 2 hours away. Instead, I'm doing the redneck way of timing 4th gear WOT runs 60-80 MPH.

Here's another photo of the Kerker full exhaust system. The muffler is beat up pretty bad, so I'll probably replace it, maybe with a carbon fiber muffler or a Supertrapp. I have half of the stock exhaust off the bike. Now I figured out I need to drain and remove the radiator. To fit the header, I have to rotate the bottom of the radiator stay forward about 1/2 inch to fit. I have no plans to use the stock header pipes. I make this fit or bust. Initially, I'll do the tuning  and testing with the bike half naked. I'll need to fabricate a couple middle fairing mounting brackets, but I might be able to get the fairing back on. We'll see.
1988 Kawasaki Concours ZG1000 - Ninja Edition
Bike has the usual accessories and modifications

Offline Bud

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Re: Ninja Edition project
« Reply #5 on: July 08, 2019, 10:03:46 am »
Here ya go
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Offline batboy

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Re: Ninja Edition project
« Reply #6 on: July 08, 2019, 12:03:20 pm »
Those two 4-2-1 headers do look quite similar. How well headers flow is dependent on several factors, but generally the big tube 4-1 headers gain power in the high RPM range while the 4-2-1 headers boost more mid torque. So, I'm already compromising if I use this header. I also compromised with the cams by using the Ninja intake cam paired up with C-10 exhaust cam. Again, this helps mid torque compared to if I had used both Ninja cams.

EDIT: I removed a discussion (rant) about torque (plus a typo that made no sense). I'll wait until I have proof specific to the C-10.
« Last Edit: July 08, 2019, 12:53:51 pm by batboy »
1988 Kawasaki Concours ZG1000 - Ninja Edition
Bike has the usual accessories and modifications

Offline connie_rider

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Re: Ninja Edition project
« Reply #7 on: July 08, 2019, 12:25:31 pm »
          :banghead: 
    I'm gone...….     

Ride safe, Ted
« Last Edit: July 09, 2019, 02:23:04 pm by connie_rider »
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Offline batboy

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Re: Ninja Edition project
« Reply #8 on: July 08, 2019, 01:02:45 pm »
I'm getting ready to remove the radiator. Any hints to make the job easier would be appreciated.

If I need radiator hoses that are 1/2 inch or 1 inch longer, is something like that available?

I need to move the radiator support stay forward, but the oil cooler hard lines will probably need to be longer.
1988 Kawasaki Concours ZG1000 - Ninja Edition
Bike has the usual accessories and modifications

Offline m in sc

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Re: Ninja Edition project
« Reply #9 on: July 08, 2019, 01:07:20 pm »
 i'd think it would be much better  to run a better breathing 4 into 2 system with longer collectors (for scavenging) and larger headpipe diameters to allow for better flow out of the head.  that 90 and 90 bend on the 4 into 1 on the 1& 2 cyls sucks, bad, and the lengths are way out of whack .  IF you can weld, you can get most of the parts from cone engineering.
you could probably move the flange collars 'down' the headpipe to get back your clearance, then  cut pas the 1st collector and run a 2 into 2 there. a balance pipe like the stocker would work well also, and run larger id pipe after the collector and a free breathing can on both sides.
« Last Edit: July 08, 2019, 01:15:46 pm by m in sc »

Offline batboy

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Re: Ninja Edition project
« Reply #10 on: July 08, 2019, 01:45:31 pm »
Thanks mr m. Those are definitely some good ideas. I'll need to think this over. I did already toy with the idea of making it into a 4-2 system by adding a mid pipe to the left side. Just seems like that would flow better. Interesting you think so too. I'm not into extremely loud exhaust either, so I think 2 mufflers would be quieter.

I have thought of ways to remove small sections from the header pipes to fit better, which would work, but that would require adding the same amount on the other end (which is not a big deal). I'm still hoping I can figure out a way to mount the header pipes without modification.

Unfortunately, I suck at welding. Luckily, I know a good local shop.

The more I think about it, the more I like the 4-2 idea. Couldn't I leave the pipe in place that goes under the engine and just use that as a balance pipe (like the stock H pipe)?
1988 Kawasaki Concours ZG1000 - Ninja Edition
Bike has the usual accessories and modifications

Offline m in sc

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Re: Ninja Edition project
« Reply #11 on: July 08, 2019, 01:59:24 pm »
you could, sure.

welding isnt hard. just practice a bit and don't use flux core if you can help it, we arent fixing tractors here. ( i assume you have a mig machine) however, you can fit and tack up, then let the local shop make it pretty.  :beerchug:


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Offline Jim Snyder

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Re: Ninja Edition project
« Reply #13 on: July 08, 2019, 04:24:01 pm »
Here ya go

Those look just like the Ontario ZX-10 header that I used to build my famous Contario 4 into 1 header.  The radiator is your biggest issue. That is why I ended up using the stock C-10 head pipes mated to the ZX-10 collectors. The mid pipe will have to be heated and tweaked to fit correctly. And as Ted mentioned you will not be able to keep the centerstand. However my header was easily removable at the collectors so I could install the centerstand for maintenance and tire changes.
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Offline MAN OF BLUES

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Re: Ninja Edition project
« Reply #14 on: July 08, 2019, 06:41:37 pm »
Here ya go

Those look just like the Ontario ZX-10 header that I used to build my famous Contario 4 into 1 header.  The radiator is your biggest issue. That is why I ended up using the stock C-10 head pipes mated to the ZX-10 collectors. The mid pipe will have to be heated and tweaked to fit correctly. And as Ted mentioned you will not be able to keep the centerstand. However my header was easily removable at the collectors so I could install the centerstand for maintenance and tire changes.

yep, that is the Ontario, I have a new one stored in a box, from back in '05 when we were "hopping up" stuff.. decided not to waste the time.. same with cams, heads, carbs,... output drive gearing.....etc., all stored..

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Offline batboy

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Re: Ninja Edition project
« Reply #15 on: July 09, 2019, 12:58:28 pm »
This exhaust system is definitely made by Kerker, but it would not surprise me if it's basically the same as the Ontario. I'm sure are were a lot of "design cloning" when it comes to making aftermarket exhaust systems.

Good news! I shimmed the bottom of the radiator about a 1/2 inch and I'm 90% sure the header will fit. I still have to do some modification (bending and/or cutting) to the radiator stay (mounting bracket). I decided to buy another radiator stay, they're cheap on eBay. That way if I screw something up, I'll have an extra. Also, if I ever want to go back to stock exhaust, I can still do so.

I plan to relocate the coolant reservoir to under the seat, like MOB did. Initially, the bike will be half naked, but I hope to get the fairing parts back on eventually. I'm sure there will be some trimming and modification done in that regard too.

Center stand is already removed. The bike is lowered and the center stand was basically unusable anyway. After I scraped the center stand on a nasty bump and almost went down, I removed it. By the way, the center stand only weighs 3 pounds, thought it would weigh more. Speaking of weight reduction, the stock exhaust weighs a lot, maybe 15 pounds more than the Kerker pipes. Connie and I are both on a diet. I'm not going to get crazy, but trying to lighten the bike a little where possible.

Summary: looks like the 4-2-1 headers will fit with some modification to the bike. This will take a while (yard work is stealing part of my time too), but I will at least pop back in daily to give a status report. Once I'm sure the headers will fit, I will get a wideband bung welded onto the mid pipe.
1988 Kawasaki Concours ZG1000 - Ninja Edition
Bike has the usual accessories and modifications

Offline kkja13

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Re: Ninja Edition project
« Reply #16 on: July 09, 2019, 08:00:20 pm »
Keep the updates coming.  I really enjoy following along.
We're rooting for you!
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Offline batboy

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Re: Ninja Edition project
« Reply #17 on: July 10, 2019, 12:17:36 am »
I'll post a couple more photos since everyone loves pictures. First one is comparing the 4-2-1 header with the stock header pipes. You  can see how the Kerker header needs more room at the front of the pipes near where the pipes bolt to the head.

The stock pipes you see in the photo weigh 13.5 pounds. The Ninja pipes weigh 7 pounds. The Kerker mid pipe and muffler together weigh 5 pounds and the stock muffler cans are 10.25 pounds each.

Total weight of stock exhaust system = 34 pounds (stock header pipes are 32mm diameter). Total weight of Kerker exhaust system = 12 pounds (Kerker header pipes are 35mm diameter).  Difference (delta) of the Kerker exhaust is 22 pounds lighter.

The second photo shows how the lower part of the radiator is moved forward about a 1/2 inch (I haven't done anything to the radiator stay yet). The top of the radiator will remain in the stock position. The radiator hoses are long enough to accommodate moving the radiator a 1/2 inch. It will be a little bit of tweaking and mod work, but I'm now 98% sure I can do it.

That's all for tonight. I should have about 4 hours free tomorrow morning to work on it. Let's keep our fingers crossed.
« Last Edit: July 10, 2019, 12:22:15 am by batboy »
1988 Kawasaki Concours ZG1000 - Ninja Edition
Bike has the usual accessories and modifications

Offline batboy

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Re: Ninja Edition project
« Reply #18 on: July 10, 2019, 09:36:27 pm »
I used a 50/50 solution of distilled water and distilled white vinegar to flush out the radiator. Filled it about halfway up and then did the radiator dance. Shake that radiator up and down and side to side. It came out pretty clean by the third dance. I finished off the rest of the gallon of distilled water by flushing it through the radiator a couple times to rinse the vinegar residue out.

I messed around with figuring out how to mount the coolant reservoir under the seat. I decided to install the headers next. No use wasting time trying to move stuff around unless I knew for sure the header would physically go on. Wow, it fits like a glove. The first photo shows that I have the Kerker Ninja headers bolted up to the bike (trial fit). Please note, the radiator and stay are not on right now.

I will need to modify the stay to allow the bottom of the radiator to move 1/2 inch forward. That's easier said than done. Not that it's going to be hard work, just time consuming. I'll have to make tedious little tweaks and then trial fit it, tweak, fit, repeat, etc.

The second photo shows how the exhaust fits going back to the mid pipe. The mid pipe already had a hanger attached and it bolts up perfectly. It's amazing how well it fits. Except the radiator of course. I'm a happy camper right now. Just hope I can get that radiator stay modified so everything will fit. I probably won't get much more done today. I'll post another progress report tomorrow.
1988 Kawasaki Concours ZG1000 - Ninja Edition
Bike has the usual accessories and modifications

Offline Jim Snyder

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Re: Ninja Edition project
« Reply #19 on: July 10, 2019, 09:50:31 pm »
Batboy,
  Have you considered cutting and shortening the pipes at the flange end. As long as the tubes are just below the flanges it looks like you could cut 1 to 2 inches out and re-weld the flanges back on. This would give you more clearance for the radiator bracket. Not sure what you are shooting for as far as performance (horsepower or torque) but I used the larger head pipes just like those and got great top end but lost lower end power and torque. That was why I ended up matching the stock headpipes to the Ontario midpipe. My dyno charts showed more torque then any other stock C-10 ever had with no dip around 4,500 to 5000 rpm with the stock exhaust. I wish you had been around during my Contario 4 into 1 build days. I had hundreds of pieces of exhaust pipe. But the end result was a better system then before. I gained a few HP and a few extra pounds of torque. And it sounded awesome. Good luck.
"Some days you're the windshield, and some days you're the bug" Get used to it cause thats life !!!

Offline batboy

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Re: Ninja Edition project
« Reply #20 on: July 10, 2019, 10:28:14 pm »
Thanks Jim, yeah I've read a lot about your headers adventure and saw the photos. When I compromised and switched from the 4-1 racing style header I got last fall to this 4-2-1 setup, it was partly because it was similar to yours and lots of people swore your bike ran great. Hey Jim, what muffler did you use? I'm thinking of trying a Supertrapp where you can add or subtract plates for sound and performance.

I have thought about shortening the pipes at the head as you suggested. Maybe I'll still have to if I can't get the radiator stay modified to fit. At the moment, I  really want to use the header as is. I feel that will give me the best flow. You're right, smaller diameter head pipes generally improve low range torque. I think maybe I'll  stop there. I'm not supposed to discuss religion, politics, sex, or torque anymore.
1988 Kawasaki Concours ZG1000 - Ninja Edition
Bike has the usual accessories and modifications

Offline MAN OF BLUES

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Re: Ninja Edition project
« Reply #21 on: July 10, 2019, 11:07:00 pm »
Ive got SuperTraps (an original set made for the old Ninja) on COGZilla, duals, with OEM exhaust...
save the money, find a cheap single "thru" muffler, like an older Jardine, or Yoshi..
the Trap's are outrageously loud, when you add plates.. I'm running 5 on each muff, and had 8 per, but that was obnoxious..
I debated dropping down to 4 each, but just don't wanna mess with them now.

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Offline Jim Snyder

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Re: Ninja Edition project
« Reply #22 on: July 11, 2019, 12:10:49 am »
Thanks Jim, yeah I've read a lot about your headers adventure and saw the photos. When I compromised and switched from the 4-1 racing style header I got last fall to this 4-2-1 setup, it was partly because it was similar to yours and lots of people swore your bike ran great. Hey Jim, what muffler did you use? I'm thinking of trying a Supertrapp where you can add or subtract plates for sound and performance.

I have thought about shortening the pipes at the head as you suggested. Maybe I'll still have to if I can't get the radiator stay modified to fit. At the moment, I  really want to use the header as is. I feel that will give me the best flow. You're right, smaller diameter head pipes generally improve low range torque. I think maybe I'll  stop there. I'm not supposed to discuss religion, politics, sex, or torque anymore.

I ran a carbon fiber Delkevic. Supertramp are junk in my opinion. Never heard one that I liked the sound of. And those discs.......Geeez !!!
"Some days you're the windshield, and some days you're the bug" Get used to it cause thats life !!!

Offline batboy

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Re: Ninja Edition project
« Reply #23 on: July 11, 2019, 06:29:12 pm »
Here is what I'm up against (see photo). The radiator stay is in place as close as it will go in without modification. I expected the bottom would have to move a 1/2 inch out. What I got is 1 inch at the bottom and a tad over 2 inches at the top. If I cut the fairing mount off, do a little grinding and tweaking here and there, I can get the top part of the bracket to probably about 1 inch, That would work if I made offset mounting brackets. Silver lining: at least the oil cooler bolts up no fuss. Also, the coolant reservoir will be relocated out of the way.

Since I had two thumbs down on the Supertrapp muffler, I started to rethink it. I remember my brother had a Supertrapp on his Kawasaki 750 triple back in our young and stupid days. It was super cool back then and all the guys loved it. But, now that I remember, it was annoying loud (which we liked back then). I can imagine getting one now and then getting a phone call from the 1970s wanting their muffler back.

So, I looked for dyno comparisons and discovered that among the top brands, most of the performance motorcycle mufflers were within a couple of HP of each other at WOT and high RPM. At lower speeds and RPM there were a lot more differences.

Jim, I had originally looked at Delkevic carbon fiber mufflers, but I couldn't find an universal 2 inch diameter inlet.

If I can find someone good at welding aluminum, perhaps this Kerker muffler I already have can be restored?
« Last Edit: July 11, 2019, 06:33:08 pm by batboy »
1988 Kawasaki Concours ZG1000 - Ninja Edition
Bike has the usual accessories and modifications

Offline MAN OF BLUES

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Re: Ninja Edition project
« Reply #24 on: July 11, 2019, 07:10:38 pm »
On a humorous note, I was just doing some surfing, and see that Supertrapp, Jardine, and also Kerker, are all now manufactured in the facility here in Cleveland, about 45 minutes from my house....  at the original Super Trapp facility..
 :rotflmao: :rotflmao: :rotflmao: :rotflmao: :rotflmao: :rotflmao:

I might have to take a ride over there and see what they might want to "develop" for the C14...  :great: :motonoises:

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and if you are gonna call me names... it's MR. Analdweeb if you please...