Author Topic: No replacement for displacement  (Read 471 times)

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Offline batboy

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No replacement for displacement
« on: September 13, 2018, 02:44:50 am »
I did some reading the other night regarding big bore kits for the ZG1000/ZL1000/ZX1000 engines. More displacement generally means more mid range torque as most old time hotrodders know. There are several informative COG forum threads discussing performance mods. One common method was to bore out the cylinders to 2mm over and use set of lightweight pistons from a ZX1100. This combo give you 1052cc.

I had heard whispers that a bigger cylinder barrel could be installed onto the Concours engine. Yes, I know Steve proved it could be done with his Shoodaben bike, but I'm talking more like a bolt-in mod. Well, I finally found out more and it's not exactly an easy bolt-in swap,  but it's not hard either. ZZR1100 cylinder barrels will fit onto the ZG1000 bottom cases if the holes are made 1mm larger. If you have a good eye and steady hand, this can be done by hand  with a dremel tool. The ZZR1100 bore is 76mm compared to the Concours 74mm bore. The 1100 barrels can be bored another 1mm or even 2mm (1109cc). The cheap way is to just use the standard ZX1100 pistons in the standard ZZR1100 76mm bore. You will need to get a machine shop to mill 1.4mm off the end of the cylinder barrel to get your compression ratio back due to rods being a different length.

Wait a minute, even with the machining, this is too simple. What's the catch? I was all on board to do this mod until I found out you can't use the ZG1000/ZL1000/ZX1000 head. Basically, about the only thing that works is a ZRX head and you have to use the ZZR cams and valve springs. I sort of lost interest at this point because I have nice low mileage upper end of a ZX1000 motor already in hand. But, maybe someone else might want to give it a go. There was other things too, like needing to upgrade the starter clutch to a stronger one from a ZRX or ZX11 and there was something about this combo that weakened #3 rod bearing. I really lost interest now.


But, I throw this info out to the folks who might want to do a little hotrodding by adding displacement. I have plans to increase power myself since I have all these lovely extra ZX1000 parts. I'm trying to find a shop to do some head work, full radius valve job and mill the mounting surface to increase CR. Anyone use Holeshot Performance? Most of the big name shops are too busy with the big boys nowadays to do any work on the lowly Concours.


Ok, this is where people start posting that most Connie owners prefer low to mid range torque over high end horsepower. That's probably true. There's an old saying: horsepower sells cars, but torque wins races. Yeah, I know all about that, but still want a few extra ponies. Torque will come along for the ride too, but maybe at a slightly higher RPM for peak numbers. That's okay, I still know how to downshift.

Online VTconnie

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Re: No replacement for displacement
« Reply #1 on: September 13, 2018, 02:56:22 am »
I assume you have Steve's 2mm kit, his exhaust sprocket or even better, the ground cams? I say this because you can go a long way with the stock 1000cc. Also bigger carbs, 36mm bores will dump some fuel, tell you what. Any of these go-fast upgrades mean you must upgrade the front brakes. I opted for the entire ZRX1100 front end, which finally made the bike safe.

And these projects are fun, but not economical. I hate to say it, but early C14s are affordable, and come with plenty of extra displacement. I still prefer the first gen Connnies though, and mine is fast enough with the stock block.
« Last Edit: September 14, 2018, 05:05:35 pm by VTconnie »
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Offline batboy

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Re: No replacement for displacement
« Reply #2 on: September 13, 2018, 04:13:21 am »
It never ends. The engine work will likely be a winter project. One thing we really lack is good free-flowing headers.

Like VT says, it's Catch 22 because you also need to upgrade the suspension and brakes if you want to go fast.

VT, you mentioned the C-14? Perfect example of "there's no replacement for displacement."

There's another old hotrodder saying: fast, dependably, cheap... pick two.

Offline Pbfoot

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Re: No replacement for displacement
« Reply #3 on: September 13, 2018, 11:45:37 am »
How will you mount the engine without the zg head?
If you don't have time to do it right, when do you have time to do it over.                                                                17" wheels, Nissin 4 piston calipers.1kg Sonic Springs.Cartridge Fork Emulators. KB Brace. Galfer brake lines  Free power mod.

Offline batboy

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Re: No replacement for displacement
« Reply #4 on: September 13, 2018, 02:27:22 pm »
Exactly! That would require super fabricating and engineering skills to accomplish (which I do not have I might add). That's a part of the reason I quickly lost interest. But, maybe someone has a different frame tucked away in a corner of the garage/shop?

Offline Jim Snyder

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Re: No replacement for displacement
« Reply #5 on: September 13, 2018, 02:53:33 pm »
If you haven't done the 2mm mod yet do it. Also get the torque cams. Those two things make a huge difference in any C-10.
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Offline Steve in Sunny Fla

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Re: No replacement for displacement
« Reply #6 on: September 13, 2018, 04:59:01 pm »
 thee zzr11 / zrx11 / zx11 cylinder blocks are all the same, and that's the block I used to build Shoodaben. there's a lot of work to it, the side of the block must be cut off and a concours cam chain tunnel welded on to be able to use the concours head. Of course you'll need to drive the cylinders out,  and machine the tops and bottoms of the block true after the welding, then press the cylinders back in.

  After all that, you'll need to have custom head gaskets made.

  You could run the stock zrx style head, but you'll need to review Dan Bergmens zrx1200 build for engine mounting. Dan actually can provide all the machinist blueprints to do that, should you choose to.

  IMO, you're trying to reinvent a wheel we've previously built. I'm not saying this to suppress your hotrodding... to the contrary, maybe to help you focus some. The fact is you need to decide if you're going for high rpm or not. the direction you're going means big cams, and that means higher rpm. The problem is that this bike is heavy, and the lack of low rpm torque will make it a slug to ride like a normal person... I know, that's how I started, before building Shoodaben.

  First off,  watch my you tube video, "Deep inside Shoodaben" . Look carefully at the head porting. I'll tell you now, I much preferred the high velocity ported head over the later head I was bolting on. So think about that.

  Also on the high compression side... it's all good, but cam accordingly. compression might get you 3-4 % more power than you have if you go up around 11.5 . watch your cranking pressure. my pressure with the big bore / high comp and zx1000 cams was in the 210psi range. when I put in my high lift power cams, cranking pressure was in the 230 area. High octane for sure. but I really liked how throttle responsive the bike was.

  you should also check out Jim Snyders exhaust. it's the only one I know if that worked substantially better than stock. Mine was ok, but not as good as Jims. I know, I rode his bike, it was the best running stock bore Concours I've ever ridden on.

  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qIR2eEqeSiM&t=273s

 HTH, Steve
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Offline batboy

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Re: No replacement for displacement
« Reply #7 on: September 14, 2018, 12:43:24 am »
Jim, I value your opinion and what you told me is certainly sound advice, but I think maybe I want to do a bit more. I plan to take Steve's suggestion and research your header. I did read something about it a couple of weeks ago, it was a 4-2-1 if I recall correctly. The exhaust system that I settle on might very well determine which performance path I take here.

But, getting back to the ZZR1100 cylinder barrels fitting onto the bottom cases of the ZG1000. Several people have done it on the ZL1000, all they did was enlarge the lower case holes where the cylinder sleeves slide into place. Each of the four holes needs to be exactly 1mm larger diameter. I assume you need a base gasket. This will give you 76mm bore (1052cc) or you can bore it out +1mm (1070cc) or +2mm (1109cc).

I wish one of you smart fellows could figure out an easy way to use the head from the ZG1000/ZL1000/ZX1000 series. Wish I could compare a ZRX head directly with my ZX1000 head. What's different? Not that I entertain any ambition to be a guinea pig. No, think I'll just bore out my extra ZX1000 cylinder barrels to 75.5mm and get a set of Wiseco 11:1 forged pistons.

The heads will get milled a bit, but I don't want to go above 11.5:1 CR. Yes, I plan on using 91 octane all the time. I'm trying to decide whether to have the head fully CNC ported or just do some hand blending and smoothing. I have ZG1000 cams and ZX1000 cams: however, I'm still undecided on what cams to use. One spec I was not able to find was the lift for the ZX1000 cams. I know they have long duration (290/290 degrees).

Steve is right though, I need to decide whether to go high RPM or fatten up mid range torque. Steve, I will watch more of your videos. I might PM you once I get the machine shop quotes. While I will continue to accumulate parts and firm up my hotrodding plans well into fall (typically nice weather in Kansas during October). I don't want to pull the bike apart right now. I want to do some riding before the snow flies.

I also have a 2004 GTO that puts down 430 HP to the wheels N/A and over 550 HP on nitrous. Best 1/4 mile time was 10.96 @ 125 MPH. The track told me congrats on getting into the tens, but get a roll cage before you come back. I never caged it, so I didn't go back.  Anyway, this is not my first rodeo is all I'm saying.

So, what Connie has put down the most HP and TQ? I'm talking stock stroke ZG1000 (not a ZX14 engine swap or something like that). Would that be Shoodaben?
« Last Edit: September 14, 2018, 01:02:10 am by batboy »

Offline tdbru

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Re: No replacement for displacement
« Reply #8 on: September 14, 2018, 03:19:58 am »
Have fun batboy.  i wish i had the time for tinkering like that again.  for most of us that don't have the time to tinker, the early C14s are getting to the price where it's way cheaper just to transition from C10 to C14 if more go is wanted.  go is fun, but so is handling, so do i spend all the $ on go or divert some to handling/stopping?  again.... too many good C14s around now.  i do like my C10 but as i was out at the John Day fossil  beds during the NW 1st annual lava run, i was feeling a bit like the fossils on my C10 too.  i do like it's LONG legs. and i spent the $ on brake and suspension upgrades rather than power.  so it handles better than stock, tires are easier to find, and it stops harder too.  the limiter... my (lack of) skill.  even if i had an H2R i don't have the skill to fully utilize it.  and we all want super go, stop, handling, and long legs (range).  hahaha.  basically a touring H2R that's break 8 second quarter miles, take corners at 90, and be comfortable enough for an ironbutt, and go 600 miles between gas stops.  so i admire your creativity to improve what you got.  i admire Steve and Jim for their creativity and innovation too.  improvements are not impossible and i wish you well and will cheer you on.  learn from those that have gone before you.  if i ever get the time again to tinker (doubtful) i think a very good tinker for my C10 would be adapting a FI system.  i'm sure it's been done too, as most things have.  but it would be a great learning project for me.  Have fun with your project. :great:
-brian

Offline batboy

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Re: No replacement for displacement
« Reply #9 on: September 14, 2018, 12:02:22 pm »
Yeah, this is what happens when you retire. Suddenly, you have lots of time to do foolish projects to relive your glory days. This is not the first time someone told me I should get a C-14 instead.

Over 30 years ago I went to the Kawasaki dealership and test rode a new Concours 1000. I had planned to trade in my KZ650SR, but about then I got engaged to my future ex-wife and my brother had a terrible motorcycle crash that almost killed him. So, here I am 30 years later correcting the mistake of not buying a new Connie back in the day.  Basically, buying this bike was on my "bucket list" of things to do while I still can.

I sort of regret selling my old Kawasaki 650, I bet in restored condition, this limited edition SR model would be worth big bucks (photo of me circa 1980 or 1981). This was not my standard riding attire, my brother had his dirt bike out on a hot summer day. So, I was goofing around and did some trail riding with my road bike, much to my brother's surprise.

Offline jettawreck

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Re: No replacement for displacement
« Reply #10 on: September 14, 2018, 01:00:26 pm »
Go for it. Do it if you must, to satisfy a quest, fulfill a dream or mission. I admire those that go so deep to make things better or their own vision of what should have been. Virtually anything "can" be done/has been done. That's often how products improve.
But, and this from someone who has spent/wasted plenty of time on projects(snowmobile restorations, VW gas to diesel swap/conversions, etc), time moves on and looking back you will find there were better things to do. Enjoy the C10 for what it is/was. When it's not enough, buy something that better satisfies the perceived needs/wants. Spend more time riding, buy other bikes, expierence more and go places. I'm dealing with a lot of maintainence and health issues with my mid-80's parents. Between typical retirement time and this scenerio time goes too quickly.
Whatever you do, try to enjoy the time spent doing it.
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Offline Steve in Sunny Fla

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Re: No replacement for displacement
« Reply #11 on: September 14, 2018, 02:07:02 pm »
You're no going to need to open up the case for the cylinders unless you use really early model cases. so sidestep it and use something from about 95 up to be safe.

 Shoodaben bumped 119 hp on the dyno with the zx cams. That was with a stock exhaust and stock airbox.

 Steve
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Offline Jim Snyder

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Re: No replacement for displacement
« Reply #12 on: September 14, 2018, 03:46:26 pm »
[quote author=Steve in Sunny Fla,

  you should also check out Jim Snyders exhaust. it's the only one I know if that worked substantially better than stock. Mine was ok, but not as good as Jims. I know, I rode his bike, it was the best running stock bore Concours I've ever ridden on.
 HTH, Steve
[/quote]
Dang Steve you are making me miss my baby now. I still have the stuff to build one more Contario exhaust but no bike to mock it up on.
"Some days you're the windshield, and some days you're the bug" Get used to it cause thats life !!!

Online VTconnie

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Re: No replacement for displacement
« Reply #13 on: September 14, 2018, 05:04:03 pm »
[quote author=Steve in Sunny Fla,

  you should also check out Jim Snyders exhaust. it's the only one I know if that worked substantially better than stock. Mine was ok, but not as good as Jims. I know, I rode his bike, it was the best running stock bore Concours I've ever ridden on.
 HTH, Steve

Dang Steve you are making me miss my baby now. I still have the stuff to build one more Contario exhaust but no bike to mock it up on.

How far away are you? what are the performance gains?
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Offline batboy

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Re: No replacement for displacement
« Reply #14 on: September 14, 2018, 09:16:34 pm »
Jim, once I'm done with the rear wheel swap, I'll PM you. I'd like more details about that header design. I think a good exhaust system is key to making power on these C-10s. If you're running a marathon, you have to exhale as much as you inhale (on average).

I threw all that junk about ZZR cylinders and ZRX heads up in the air just so it might spawn some ideas and inspiration. I don't plan to do that and the people that have done it appear to have reliability problems. I am leaning towards a medium bore ZX1000 build. If I bump displacement up to 1040cc, then I can call the bike: "The Tax Collector." Get it, form 1040 is the income tax form. Never mind, that was lame. But, I now have a hotrodding goal... 120 HP  ;)

Offline Steve in Sunny Fla

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Re: No replacement for displacement
« Reply #15 on: September 14, 2018, 10:05:34 pm »
Jim, once I'm done with the rear wheel swap, I'll PM you. I'd like more details about that header design. I think a good exhaust system is key to making power on these C-10s. If you're running a marathon, you have to exhale as much as you inhale (on average).

I threw all that junk about ZZR cylinders and ZRX heads up in the air just so it might spawn some ideas and inspiration. I don't plan to do that and the people that have done it appear to have reliability problems. I am leaning towards a medium bore ZX1000 build. If I bump displacement up to 1040cc, then I can call the bike: "The Tax Collector." Get it, form 1040 is the income tax form. Never mind, that was lame. But, I now have a hotrodding goal... 120 HP  ;)

  Shoodaben has ZERO reliability issues, ever. it has been to at least 5 nationals all around the US, track days, no problem for me or the current owner - the editor of the Concourier.

  As far as 120 hp... show me!

 Steve
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Offline Jim Snyder

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Re: No replacement for displacement
« Reply #16 on: September 14, 2018, 11:08:30 pm »
[quote author=Steve in Sunny Fla,

  you should also check out Jim Snyders exhaust. it's the only one I know if that worked substantially better than stock. Mine was ok, but not as good as Jims. I know, I rode his bike, it was the best running stock bore Concours I've ever ridden on.
 HTH, Steve

Dang Steve you are making me miss my baby now. I still have the stuff to build one more Contario exhaust but no bike to mock it up on.

How far away are you? what are the performance gains?
I don't remember the dyno numbers but it did boost HP and torque. The biggest gain was it got rid of the torque dip that all C-10's have between
 4 to 6 thousand rpm.
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Offline CRocker

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Re: No replacement for displacement
« Reply #17 on: September 15, 2018, 12:35:41 am »
VTconnie,

You should just come to Arkansas and ride it...it's still around...

I'm thinking that if more people did that...it would probably sell more 2MM...Torque Cams...7th Gear Mods...and those 4 into 1 exhausts... ;D

And, Steve, I don't ever rev it over 7k rpm...OK...full disclosure here...seldom...yeah, seldom...that's the ticket...

Jim...just so you know...you put 36k miles on it in 15 years...I've put 10k on it in a year...and, I think I'll keep it... :rotflmao:




Offline Jim Snyder

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Re: No replacement for displacement
« Reply #18 on: September 15, 2018, 01:18:25 am »

Jim...just so you know...you put 36k miles on it in 15 years...I've put 10k on it in a year...and, I think I'll keep it... :rotflmao:

Oh that hurts  :'(  But if I had spent more time riding it it would not have gotten so fast.  :beerchug:
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Re: No replacement for displacement
« Reply #19 on: September 15, 2018, 01:26:28 am »
...probably true...I’m still happy!

Offline batboy

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Re: No replacement for displacement
« Reply #20 on: September 15, 2018, 01:44:55 am »
Steve, I was talking about kids throwing engines together as cheap as they can, then running the p!$$ out of them. It goes back to "Fast, reliable, cheap... pick two." I know that's not your way. Also, I was teasing about the 120 HP goal (well, sorta). Really, to me a dyno is a tuning tool. Speaking of tuning, I'll probably need to install a wide band and gauge. But, right now I just want to finish putting the bike back together and go for a ride.

Offline Jim Snyder

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Re: No replacement for displacement
« Reply #21 on: September 15, 2018, 02:19:02 am »
 >
...probably true...I’m still happy!

 >:( >:( >:(
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Offline connie_rider

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Re: No replacement for displacement
« Reply #22 on: September 15, 2018, 02:56:53 pm »
Actually, 120+ HP is do-able on a C-10.
  All you have to do is hand-build the turbocharger and fuel injection system's.
  http://forum.cog-online.org/concours-c10-zg1000-general-chat-and-tech/the-ultimate-c-10-build/

Ride safe, Ted

PS better!!: OOoooohhhhh, Lookeee' what I found...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GMGOwsxs0-E
« Last Edit: September 15, 2018, 03:11:42 pm by connie_rider »
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