Author Topic: Pulling on fork tube, seal will not come out, how hard to yank?  (Read 928 times)

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Offline LeeM

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Pulling on fork tube, seal will not come out, how hard to yank?
« on: December 25, 2018, 09:31:14 pm »
I am replacing the fork tube oil seal  and I can't remove the seal by  yanking on the slider. I have already removed the plastic horn and the associated dust excluding seal and the circlip. The fork is already out of the bike, oil drained out and from the length of travel of the shiny slider it is plausible that the inner parts are hitting the fork tube oil seal.

I would expect  by now that the old fork tube oil seal should start sliding out due the hammering of the washer and spacer. I have escalated to many medium strong manual pulls, with my adult son holding the black lower slider.

What to do next? The thread for the top of the fork, the shiny tube is 34mm x 1.0 pitch and I wonder, has anybody made a tool to screw in to the shiny slider to help yank out the oil seal?

Offline MAN OF BLUES

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Re: Pulling on fork tube, seal will not come out, how hard to yank?
« Reply #1 on: December 25, 2018, 09:36:53 pm »
did you remove the bottom retaining bolt?


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Offline LeeM

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Re: Pulling on fork tube, seal will not come out, how hard to yank?
« Reply #2 on: December 25, 2018, 09:42:34 pm »
Bottom retaining bolt? I see a 10 mm hex going straignt up the centerline of the fork tube. I started to loosen it and stopped. Should I remove it?

Offline MAN OF BLUES

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Re: Pulling on fork tube, seal will not come out, how hard to yank?
« Reply #3 on: December 25, 2018, 09:56:54 pm »
Bottom retaining bolt? I see a 10 mm hex going straignt up the centerline of the fork tube. I started to loosen it and stopped. Should I remove it?

hold on... stop for a second...

do you have a FSM handy? it shows the manner to do it, but I can explain quicker,

normally you have to have a "tool" to hold thee inner "internal hex nut", down inside the fork tube, to loosen the bottom bolt, as when the springs are out, there is nothing to prevent the internal guts from spinning when trying to loosen the bolt...
I always install the spring, and cap, and compress the fork tube to apply pressure on the 'guts', then I hit that bottom bolt using an air impact wrench, to break it free and spin it out, with the fork compressed, then I remove the cap and spring again.

the 'tool' is basically a hex on a shaft, and can be made from 4 hex nuts, and a piece of all thread... the nuts and all thread should be 5/8" thread, which has a hexnut the proper size to fit the internal locking nut's hex...  so pick up a piece of 5/8" allthread, about 18" long, spin a nut on, then a flat washer, and then another nut, and lock them together tightly on each end of the rod.... this makes the tool, you will need it to re-install the bottom bolt after disassembling anyways, so make it before trying to removee the bottom bolt, as if it spins, you will need it for disassembly.

after all that, use a "slide hammer like action" between the top and bottom tubes, and everything will pop right out, it doesn't take a lot of force

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Offline LeeM

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Re: Pulling on fork tube, seal will not come out, how hard to yank?
« Reply #4 on: December 26, 2018, 03:09:20 am »
Thank you Man of Blues.
Got it. The measurements refer to a 2000 Connie fork.
I made an internal hex adapter from a 1/2" x 6" hex bolt and some hex nuts. The hex driver size needs to be .857" (21.8mm) across the flats.  The fork also has larger hex shape that measures about 1.023" (25.98mm).

The bottom bolt in my 2000 Connie fork needs a 10mm hex wrench. Once I slid an internal hex adapter into place, the whole fork assembly was apart in two minutes.

The hard to understand part of the fork is how do all the sliding parts work.

I attach photos showing the fork parts and tools laid out in order.

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Re: Pulling on fork tube, seal will not come out, how hard to yank?
« Reply #5 on: December 26, 2018, 02:46:45 pm »
If you "really" want to know how they work, read thru this.
http://www.racetech.com/HTML_FILES/DampingRodForks.HTML

I just did the front forks of mine. I used the same method/tools as MOB.
Best way to do it.

NOTE: To any using the air impact.
  Be absolutely sure to use the 10 metric, push the allen socket firmly into the bolt when you pull the trigger, and
      DO NOT think you can get by with a 3/8" or other as you could easily round the bolt/hex hole..

Ride safe, Ted
« Last Edit: December 28, 2018, 02:44:49 pm by connie_rider »
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Offline MAN OF BLUES

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Re: Pulling on fork tube, seal will not come out, how hard to yank?
« Reply #6 on: December 26, 2018, 08:50:32 pm »
Thank you Man of Blues.
Got it. The measurements refer to a 2000 Connie fork.
I made an internal hex adapter from a 1/2" x 6" hex bolt and some hex nuts. The hex driver size needs to be .857" (21.8mm) across the flats.  The fork also has larger hex shape that measures about 1.023" (25.98mm).

The bottom bolt in my 2000 Connie fork needs a 10mm hex wrench. Once I slid an internal hex adapter into place, the whole fork assembly was apart in two minutes.


Sorry for not mentioning using a bolt, that also works... and also sorry for the "size" I noted... I was running from memory and what I used, and had to go pull what I had and measure...OOOppps... (EDIT; I can't find my tool to really see what I made...)
The 1/2" bolt and "Heavy" hex nut will have the right size hex on nut (7/8"),(they are actually thicker also) but a 'normal hex nut, or jam nut' will be too small..(3/4" across flats...);
and, as you found, the hex on the bolt head is 3/4" also,

I made mine from parts outta one of my bins, and it was really made from 9/16" all thread, and 9/16" standard nuts (not 'heavy' nuts,) (EDIT;  HEAVY NUTS.. I guess I erred again, not having tool in hand still) and flat washers. Had to actually look... :-[ :truce:  and can't find the tool....
Anyway, glad it worked out for you. :great: :great:

as for that large hex ( I assume you are referring to the cap), it's a 26mm, but I carry a 1/2" wratchet in my onboard toolbox, and also a 1-1/16" socket, which fits fine on that, and also the rear axle nut.....
« Last Edit: December 27, 2018, 07:24:24 pm by MAN OF BLUES »

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Offline LeeM

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Re: Pulling on fork tube, seal will not come out, how hard to yank?
« Reply #7 on: December 27, 2018, 07:42:36 am »
Connie_rider's link to some technical pages on how forks work is the best drawing and explanation of how a motorcycle fork works  I have ever seen. I tried making a freehand  sketch of a motorcycle fork. I couldn't understand my own sketches.

"If you "really" want to know how they work, read thru this.
http://www.racetech.com/HTML_FILES/DampingRodForks.HTML"

Thanks again Man of Blues for the detail on the correct size for the fork piston tool. My tool wasn't strong enough to torque the assembly, so I went to the hardware store.

I took the Kawasaki fork piston to the hardware store and I started looking for a hexagonal object that engages with the recesses of the fork piston. I settled on a metric hex coupling nut. The hex coupler trade size is 16 mm x 1.0 and it cost $5. The hex flats are 23.98 mm (correcting error in original post) and the 48 mm long body drops into a 15/16" 12 point socket. A breaker bar and an extension bar makes a tool long enough to reach into the fork slider and engage with the recesses of the fork piston. Another socket wrench with a 10 mm hex bit turns the 10 mm hex bolt that goes up from the axle through the center line of the fork tubes. 

The Clymer's manual said torque the piston bolt and use loctite. I used loctite and tightened the 10mm hex bolt to a two arm pull on a 3/8" square drive ratchet wrench. 

The first fork took 1 and a half days. The second fork took 3 hours. I now have two forks super clean, new seals and filled with oil.
« Last Edit: January 01, 2019, 02:47:46 am by LeeM »

Offline MAN OF BLUES

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Re: Pulling on fork tube, seal will not come out, how hard to yank?
« Reply #8 on: December 27, 2018, 07:59:28 pm »
......

Thanks again Man of Blues for the detail on the correct size for the fork piston tool. My tool wasn't strong enough to torque the assembly, so I went to the hardware store.

I took the Kawasaki fork piston to the hardware store and I started looking for a hexagonal object that engages with the recesses of the fork piston. I settled on a metric hex coupling nut. The hex coupler trade size is 16 mm x 1.0 and it cost $5. The hex flats are 22 mm and the 48 mm long body drops into a 15/16" 12 point socket. A breaker bar and an extension bar makes a tool long enough to reach into the fork slider and engage with the recesses of the fork piston. Another socket wrench with a 10 mm hex bit turns the 10 mm hex bolt that goes up from the axle through the center line of the fork tubes. 

The Clymer's manual said torque the piston bolt and use loctite. I used loctite and tightened the 10mm hex bolt to a two arm pull on a 3/8" square drive ratchet wrench. 

The first fork took 1 and a half days. The second fork took 3 hours. I now have two forks super clean, new seals and filled with oil.

This kinda made me crazy, as I still, after ripping thru boxes of stuff, have not found te last tool I made... but I have a question about your measurements, and by what you are saying it doesn't match up... here's why;

I originally commented it was a 5/8" standard nut, on 5/8" all thread.. and that was from memory... I made 3 of these thru the years out of a piece of rod I had, when I was fixing forks at someones house helping them out... so it kinda stuck in my brain...

A 5/8" standard nut, has a hex size of .9375" (15/16") across the flats... so this makes sense on why the nut you found, the coupler nut, took a 15/16" socket wrench, because that size is very close to a 24mm (.945") hex (across flats)...
and an coupling nut for a 16mm thread, is 24mm wrench size..
just looked one up

https://tinyurl.com/yczpxu84

M16, M16X2.0 Metric Hex Coupling / Standoff Nut
These extra long hex nuts are used to connect all threaded studs or rods.

Inner Threading: M16X2.00
Diameter: M16
Thread Pitch: 2.0 Coarse
Overall Length: 48mm
Wrench Size / WAF: 24mm

I did go up and edit somewhat my original post, as I know when I made the last tool, I had run out of 5/8" all thread, but did have some 9/16", which I did actually find a piece left over from when I made the last tool, so I have to assume I used 4 HEAVY Nuts, in 9/16" thread, which also has a 15/16" hex...

so please measure the coupling nut again, just for the sake of telling me, so I can add this somewhere in our FAQ section, and when I find my tool  :-[  (probably when I least expect it...)
I'll post a picture..

30 YEARS OF KAW.....Rich R. (the other one..)  COG 5977  JUSTAMEMBAHNOW
and if you are gonna call me names... it's MR. Analdweeb if you please...

Offline Victor Salisbury

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Re: Pulling on fork tube, seal will not come out, how hard to yank?
« Reply #9 on: December 28, 2018, 02:14:10 pm »
Hey MOB,

I have my tool I made on your insight in my tool box (at the house, I'm at work). I'll dig it out and scope it out tonight.




so please measure the coupling nut again, just for the sake of telling me, so I can add this somewhere in our FAQ section, and when I find my tool  :-[  (probably when I least expect it...)
I'll post a picture..

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Offline WillyP

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Re: Pulling on fork tube, seal will not come out, how hard to yank?
« Reply #10 on: December 28, 2018, 03:50:35 pm »
It's also possible to take a nut off a jack and put some blue tape on it, stick it in a socket and use that.

Smart people look like crazy people to stupid people.
pics

Offline MAN OF BLUES

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Re: Pulling on fork tube, seal will not come out, how hard to yank?
« Reply #11 on: December 28, 2018, 10:10:51 pm »
Hey MOB,

I have my tool I made on your insight in my tool box (at the house, I'm at work). I'll dig it out and scope it out tonight.




so please measure the coupling nut again, just for the sake of telling me, so I can add this somewhere in our FAQ section, and when I find my tool  :-[  (probably when I least expect it...)
I'll post a picture..


YOU DA MAN Vic, thanks... :great: :great:

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and if you are gonna call me names... it's MR. Analdweeb if you please...

Offline LeeM

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Re: Pulling on fork tube, seal will not come out, how hard to yank?
« Reply #12 on: December 29, 2018, 12:53:24 pm »
The coupler I used is 23.98 mm across the flats. I was using memory, walking from garage to house. I have something other stuff on the workbench that may have measured 22 mm. My error. The coupler you looked up above is probably what I bought. I threw away the bag I brought it home in and I don't have any 16mm diameter bolts to test the inner threads with.

I got the bike reassembled and so far with 20 wt fork oil I can't say it handles any better. So now, the question I am kicking around is what is a easy safe way to understand when a Connie front suspension is adjusted right?

Offline Victor Salisbury

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Re: Pulling on fork tube, seal will not come out, how hard to yank?
« Reply #13 on: December 30, 2018, 10:50:23 am »
Probably late, got sidetracked.
Threaded rod is 5/8",  the nut takes a 15/16th socket.
Picture posted at the other site because of restrictions here. Found a bolt at the local big box stores, 5/8's X 10" long that also worked.
http://www.zggtr.org/index.php?topic=23858.new#new
« Last Edit: December 30, 2018, 11:05:31 am by Victor Salisbury »
Vic Salisbury
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Stupid Hurts! Wearing protective gear is much more comfortable.

Offline MAN OF BLUES

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Re: Pulling on fork tube, seal will not come out, how hard to yank?
« Reply #14 on: December 30, 2018, 07:59:01 pm »
Probably late, got sidetracked.
Threaded rod is 5/8",  the nut takes a 15/16th socket.
Picture posted at the other site because of restrictions here. Found a bolt at the local big box stores, 5/8's X 10" long that also worked.
http://www.zggtr.org/index.php?topic=23858.new#new



thanks Vic,
I copied the photo, and reduced it's size to meet the posting max size here,
so folks can see what it looks like...
cheers, happy newd year... :beerchug: :rotflmao:


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and if you are gonna call me names... it's MR. Analdweeb if you please...

Offline connieklr

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Re: Pulling on fork tube, seal will not come out, how hard to yank?
« Reply #15 on: December 30, 2018, 08:14:54 pm »
I welded mine, so no double-nutting necessary:




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Offline MAN OF BLUES

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Re: Pulling on fork tube, seal will not come out, how hard to yank?
« Reply #16 on: December 30, 2018, 09:35:25 pm »
not everyone has a welder... like us hard core old fartz...

I actually used the same rod/nuts, for installing the front steering head bearing cups, with your bearing tool... so it was a double duty tool at that...  :great: :great: :beerchug: :beerchug:

happy newd year. :beerchug:

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Offline Boomer

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Re: Pulling on fork tube, seal will not come out, how hard to yank?
« Reply #17 on: December 30, 2018, 10:26:42 pm »
Dang, what happened to the frugal COGers I knew and loved? <LOL>
You can use a wooden broom handle with the end shaped like a truncated pyramid.
Just jam it in there and it provides enough grip to loosen the allen bolt.

Personally I locked 2 slightly oversized nuts together on a bolt and then ground in a slight taper.on the lead nut.
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Offline connieklr

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Re: Pulling on fork tube, seal will not come out, how hard to yank?
« Reply #18 on: December 31, 2018, 11:34:08 am »
Dang, what happened to the frugal COGers I knew and loved? <LOL>
You can use a wooden broom handle with the end shaped like a truncated pyramid.
Just jam it in there and it provides enough grip to loosen the allen bolt.

Personally I locked 2 slightly oversized nuts together on a bolt and then ground in a slight taper.on the lead nut.

I used the broom handle method successfully for a lot of years on a lot of forks, but a couple of years ago that method just wouldn't keep the inner damper rod from rotating on my KLR forks. That's when I did the deed and made the holding tool. Since I had the welder, I saved a few pennies on extra nuts and just welded the nuts in place. Worked great on my C10 as well. Did wrap some friction tape around the rod to protect the tube's inner threads.

I still have that broom handle tucked away in the corner - JIC.
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