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Offline Wageslave

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Questions on my new project bike.
« on: December 02, 2019, 06:47:23 pm »
I just picked up an '86 ZG1000 off of Letgo and have started the process of getting it running again.  It supposedly has only sat for a year, but is kind of rough and refusing to start.  It came with no key, so I unplugged the ignition and jumpered the connectors to make it think it is in the run position.

It cranks over fine, but doesn't want to even start on ether.  It will stumble like it is trying but not enough to actually catch.  The carbs are full of crap and will be rebuilt, but it seems like spark is the bigger issue.  The coils fire during cranking, but the spark is weak on the 1 and 4 plugs.  Both coils measure about 24 ohms between the - and + connectors,  The left side coil measures full battery voltage at the - and + terminals, and you can see the trigger signal pulsing during cranking.  The right side coil measures about 1.5 volts, and also pulses during cranking.  Continuity checks good between the CDI box connector and the four terminals at the coils.

At this point, should I replace the CDI box or is there something else that I should be looking for to get fire?

Thanks

Offline m in sc

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Re: Questions on my new project bike.
« Reply #1 on: December 02, 2019, 08:12:18 pm »
it may be only sparking due to it being in start mode, when you let go of the starter it may not be continuing. id look for a key switch eventually, but id start with the carbs.
When they tell you they have 'seen it all and done it all', you can guarantee that they haven't.

Offline Brian_H

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Re: Questions on my new project bike.
« Reply #2 on: December 02, 2019, 08:23:57 pm »
Smarter people than I will be along shortly to add their thoughts, but I would sort out the fuel delivery issues first.  You mention you have some spark, but are you getting any fuel?
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Offline Wageslave

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Re: Questions on my new project bike.
« Reply #3 on: December 02, 2019, 10:38:34 pm »
I have a full lock set in the mail, and a carb rebuild kit will be purchased soon.  The fuel inside of the gas tank looks like an orange smoothie, and the carbs are kind of rough.  I emptied the nasty gas out of the float bowls, and ran an external tank to feed the carbs with.

At this point, I am still in assessment mode.  Everything seems fixable but it is a little overwhelming when there is multiple issues happening at the same time.  It is a great case of a good bike with crappy previous owners.

Offline Boomer

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Re: Questions on my new project bike.
« Reply #4 on: December 03, 2019, 11:02:15 am »
Measure the resistance between coil cap 1 and coil cap 4. Should be a little over 10Kohms. If it's substantially more then you need to unscrew the caps from the cable and check each cap as the 5Kohm resistor in one have gone high-resistance. Replace the damaged plug cap, or if yer feeling rich, replace all 4.
I use NGK SD05F-R plug caps and they work jes fine.  :)
If yer replacing all the caps buy some 8mm stranded copper core spark-plug lead and replace the original wires while you are at it.
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Offline connieklr

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Re: Questions on my new project bike.
« Reply #5 on: December 03, 2019, 11:35:15 am »
Measure the resistance between coil cap 1 and coil cap 4. Should be a little over 10Kohms. If it's substantially more then you need to unscrew the caps from the cable and check each cap as the 5Kohm resistor in one have gone high-resistance. Replace the damaged plug cap, or if yer feeling rich, replace all 4.
I use NGK SD05F-R plug caps and they work jes fine.  :)
If yer replacing all the caps buy some 8mm stranded copper core spark-plug lead and replace the original wires while you are at it.

Believe that's 7 mm wire Boomer. You'd have a rough time getting 8 mm through the caps, grommets, and ferrules.
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Offline connie_rider

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Re: Questions on my new project bike.
« Reply #6 on: December 03, 2019, 01:51:19 pm »
Wageslave, the C-10's have a nasty habit of hydrolocking if the carbs are overflowing. This can happen while cranking.
So, do not try to crank the engine if you smell gas.

Before you get too deep into this project, check that the engine was not hydrolocked previously.
There is a video available that shows how to do this easy process.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4W6k3pTdAXw

Weak spark is often cause by bad wires/caps, or poor connections at the coils.
Check that all the wires are secure on the coils.
Murph sells a set of wires/caps that works great.
https://www.murphskits.com/product_info.php?products_id=51&osCsid=J2Ck75j-WX3LlIuwYtVcV1

Additionally, the ground near the CDI box may not be good.
Check the ground, and I also suggest; do the free power mod as it solves this possibility.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RFK3AaZ_Uwo

On your spark, have you checked that the wires are on the correct plugs?
Many folks cross the wires...

Ride safe, Ted

« Last Edit: December 03, 2019, 02:06:18 pm by connie_rider »
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Offline Boomer

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Re: Questions on my new project bike.
« Reply #7 on: December 04, 2019, 03:14:44 pm »
If yer replacing all the caps buy some 8mm stranded copper core spark-plug lead and replace the original wires while you are at it.

Believe that's 7 mm wire Boomer. You'd have a rough time getting 8 mm through the caps, grommets, and ferrules.
Yeah, what Guy said.
Damn, gettin' old sux! :rotflmao:
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Offline connieklr

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Re: Questions on my new project bike.
« Reply #8 on: December 04, 2019, 07:06:23 pm »
If yer replacing all the caps buy some 8mm stranded copper core spark-plug lead and replace the original wires while you are at it.

Believe that's 7 mm wire Boomer. You'd have a rough time getting 8 mm through the caps, grommets, and ferrules.
Yeah, what Guy said.
Damn, gettin' old sux! :rotflmao:

Tell me about it.

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Offline MAN OF BLUES

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Re: Questions on my new project bike.
« Reply #9 on: December 04, 2019, 07:20:30 pm »
It came with no key, so I unplugged the ignition and jumpered the connectors to make it think it is in the run position.

It cranks over fine, but doesn't want to even start on ether. 

Yeah, I'm in the "old" zone, but I still have to question if the procedure done, actually quantified "complete" or correct, to make it start.. as I have never cut the harness, and jumpered same, to make the bike "run".. so I don't know what wires were or were not connected.../\ :??: :??:

Conni's are funny, the J-Box/relay syndrome may make it possible to turn over, but ..... will it start.. just keep cleaning stuff for now, remove the tank, get that bastiche clean, realllllly clean, pull carbs, clean them..... and go on when you get the new ignition switch..

 ;) ;)

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Offline Wageslave

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Re: Questions on my new project bike.
« Reply #10 on: December 04, 2019, 10:32:07 pm »
The ignition switch plug was jumpered to match the connection table on the wiring diagram for the ON position.  I actually received my new lockset and the replacement switch tested the same on my multimeter.
I did the hydrolock test, and all cylinders seemed good.
I checked over the spark plug wires and found the resistance between 1 and 4 to be about 25k.  I will try to locate a new set of wires the next time I can get to the dealer. 
I pulled the fuel petcock and fuel door off of the tank, and found more orange smoothie inside.  It actually smelled like latex paint, and was not even a little flammible.  I have most of it poured out, but like most tanks, there is about a cup left in there that I cannot get to come out for anything.  I am probably going to pour some used motor oil in there to displace the water, then give it a good diesel scrub.
I'm probably going to pull and disassemble the carbs next but if the tank is any indication, it's going to look like a crime scene inside those float bowls.

Offline Lee

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Re: Questions on my new project bike.
« Reply #11 on: December 04, 2019, 11:30:51 pm »
The coils fire during cranking, but the spark is weak on the 1 and 4 plugs.  Both coils measure about 24 ohms between the - and + connectors,  The left side coil measures full battery voltage at the - and + terminals, and you can see the trigger signal pulsing during cranking.  The right side coil measures about 1.5 volts, and also pulses during cranking.  Continuity checks good between the CDI box connector and the four terminals at the coils.

At this point, should I replace the CDI box or is there something else that I should be looking for to get fire?

Thanks

No to replacing ignition box. That until this anyway. Would think reduced voltage at 1.5 on right coil needs addressing first and foremost. Pink elephant unless someone tells you it is normal for this on start. Check wiring and all connections in that path first and foremost. Also since you have two coils & two pickup units you can switch or jumper leads to see if weak spark switches side for process of elimination of parts involved. This not to start bike but to test with plugs out of engine.

As noted these bike are prone to hydro lock and bending rods on startup. I would not run fuel till I knew carbs were up to snuff and had overflow tubes.

I took an 87 back to the living after 12 years sitting. The j-box is the first choice for electrical gremlins. I resoldered the back of the board after checking diodes and changed the relays. Had to rebuild brake system and clutch slave cylinder. As well fuel system in total including lining the tank. I was rewarded with one hell of a bike!

Did other things as well but that is for later. Above will get her done to ride reliably and safely. Get 12v to both coils!

Offline Lee

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Re: Questions on my new project bike.
« Reply #12 on: December 04, 2019, 11:39:07 pm »
PS: Carefully check and clean contacts at j-box and ign box if you have not. Oil, dirt,& corrosion can be a low voltage issue. Contact cleaner and modified toothbrush will help. The gods of motorcycling abandon cyclist on the side of road in the cold and dark for dirty contacts. Mortal sin you know.

Offline Lee

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Re: Questions on my new project bike.
« Reply #13 on: December 05, 2019, 04:29:19 pm »
Had a min to look at the fig. 2 schematic that circulates on board this morn. For testing purposes with plugs removed from engine but grounded. I would switch coil leads to see if weak spark moves with coil attached to black and red normally # 4 coil. You could just switch black and green leads but there still could be a problem with the one  common red connector. If problem stays with red and black, I would then check black lead back to Igniter box as well the red connector over to next coil.

With regards to pickups. Switching is physically more difficult due to connectors. But could be done with jumper wires or switching connector pins by following and reversing color coded wires at Igniter box. This would isolate problem to a component or wire path.

1.5volts is trackable back to where full voltage exists normally in circuit. Just a process of elimination to find where voltage drops out. My bet would be black wire to coil or p/u as all else is common to both coil 12v circuits.

I mentioned earlier that there may be a circuit designed to start just with full voltage to one coil. This is speculation based on your current readings being normal at 1.5v. This unless someone knows for sure about how Igniter could do this in any way. I do not see this in the circuit.

Of note also the Fig. 2 schematic circulated on board does not show p/u in circuit! You will have to go to manual schematic.

Please note I am not an expert here. However have spent a portion of my life in a general electrical repair facility. Items brought for repair often had little info to no for the repair. It was necessary to just follow the wires and do a process of elimination. Now it is just replace a circuit board! Much easier as it works or does not! Good luck!

Offline Wageslave

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Re: Questions on my new project bike.
« Reply #14 on: December 12, 2019, 09:13:37 am »
Ok, so after getting a few days off to do some wrenching, here's where I am at:

I pulled apart the carbs and cleaned them out.  As expected, they were nasty but cleaned surprisingly well.  They seem to hold fuel without leaking, and are generally a lot smoother than when I started.

I seem to have good fire to all cylinders now.  I pulled both coils off and cleaned their grounds, and cut a quarter inch off of all of the HT leads where they go into the coil and reseated them.  I have good spark from all four cables now.  I pulled and cleaned the spark plugs, and seem to be getting fuel to all cylinders now.

I also pulled apart the junction box to check for corrosion, and found that someone has already been in there somewhat recently.  The three relays have been replaced with new ones (I found the old ones in one of the faring pockets.)  All of the solder work on the backside of the board looks solid, and all of the fuses look good (and original).

All this being said, it still doesn't want to start at all.  Fuel will load up in the exhaust as it is cranking and eventually make a hell of a bang in one of the mufflers, but never attempts to catch and fire.  It almost seems like it is out of time.  It doesn't sound erratic like there is a weak or dead cylinder during cranking.

I am kind of at a loss at this point.

Offline ZXtasy

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Re: Questions on my new project bike.
« Reply #15 on: December 12, 2019, 12:46:53 pm »
Kill Switch, Clutch Switch, Kickstand switch....? Air filter new or clean?

Fuel/Air/Spark is the magic combo.
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Offline connie_rider

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Re: Questions on my new project bike.
« Reply #16 on: December 12, 2019, 02:09:35 pm »
Sounds like timing, but carbs are still suspect; {have you tried a shot of Starting fluid to see if it tries to start?

#!: Do you have a manual??? Has a good troubleshooting sequence.

On your spark, have you checked that the wires are on the correct plugs?
Many folks cross the wires... 
  {left} Coil #A {black and red wires} goes to cylinders 1 & 4.
  {right} Coil #B {green and red wires} goes to cylinders 2 & 3.

Also; Check to see that pickup coils are gapped correctly. resistance ok.
  Timing Rotor; Air gap .5 - .9mm.
                       Pickups 390-590 Ohms.

    IC Coil tests; {See manual}

As you don't know the background on this bike, here are a few thoughts on other things to look at.
  Cam timing if the cam was ever worked on.
  The pin on the crankshaft for the Timing Rotor could have been sheared if someone turned the engine incorrectly.
  Carb boots on engine side of carbs must be sealed.

Ride safe, Ted
 
« Last Edit: December 12, 2019, 02:13:43 pm by connie_rider »
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Offline MAN OF BLUES

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Re: Questions on my new project bike.
« Reply #17 on: December 12, 2019, 02:46:00 pm »
that tell tale syndrome of fuel loading up in exhaust, and bike not firing, then back firing.... points to miss wired plugs, as Ted mentioned....
You mentioned trimming the ends of the H/T wires at the coil end, but more important is to examine the plug end, and remove each cap, trim back the wire flush by 3/4", and re-install... when removing and installing those plug cap ends, they actually "unthread" from the wire... the center "pin" that pierces the solid wire core, is threaded, like a screw..and threads "into" the core; when reinstalling the trimmed end wires, press the cable into the cap, and while pressing the cap thread it on, the wire will go into the cap about a half inch more until it stops.

left coil.... cylinder 1 & 4
right coil cylinder 2 & 3

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Offline Lee

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Re: Questions on my new project bike.
« Reply #18 on: December 12, 2019, 03:32:59 pm »
You have done an excellent job so far! Am truly surprised you are not rewarded for your efforts yet.

Second making absolutely sure carb start circuits are clear. Second starting fluid as diagnostic. If start fluid fires it, there is your blockage. Also verify correct float levels.

Second also "Kill Switch, Clutch Switch, Kickstand switch? "
Of note I was baffled by similar issue and turned out to be kick switch. Checked fine but oil and dirt in the plug unseen would not make proper connection. Spray of Gunk followed by contact cleaner resolved that issue if I remember all that properly. Believe used Dielectric grease to stop further increase of road debris and oils, of course not on contacts. So please if you would, are you getting any combustion ie popping or back fire at all? If no definitely check these!

Also? "The right side coil measures about 1.5 volts, and also pulses during cranking." Was this a typo or real issue? How was full voltage rectified?

On further note for consideration. I have had vehicles that absolutely would not start with a vacuum leak. Not sure if a C10 is that finicky. But? Carb seating in manifold rubbers would be critical perhaps. This can be difficult if they are hardened with age.

Lastly as mentioned "pin on the crankshaft for the Timing Rotor could have been sheared if someone turned the engine incorrectly". Steve formerly from Florida has a video on his procedure for this do believe. So timing check may need ruled in or out. Ugh if so!

Again good hunting. Am sure you will be rewarded for your effort! Hopefully soon!

Offline Lee

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Re: Questions on my new project bike.
« Reply #19 on: December 12, 2019, 03:36:42 pm »
Oh dear ....missed it was firing at all! My bad. Recommendations should duly modified for that event.

Offline Wageslave

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Re: Questions on my new project bike.
« Reply #20 on: December 12, 2019, 05:01:34 pm »
The air filters are those garbage K&N pods.  They are in OK condition, but if this ever gets running it will get a factory airbox put back on it.  Have not checked the kickstand switch yet, although when I started working on it it was on the sidestand, and I switched it to the centerstand later on.

I have tried using starting fluid, which makes the big bang from the exhaust happen a lot faster.  Unfortunately, it also will pop back out of the carbs, which resulted in me getting to use my garages fire extnguisher for the first time.  I will probably pull the cover off and check the pickups next, but I won't be back into the garage until the weekend.  The coils are wired correctly, and the wires seem to have their original 1-4 yellow labels on them.  I wanted to trim the plug end down, but even when pulling the screw-in piece and the resistor out, I could not get the cable to release from the boot.  Perhaps, I did not use enough force on it.

As far as the 1.5V thing, I hooked up my Fluke meter that has a faster reaction time than the Harbor Freight cheapy and it told a different story.  Apparently at rest, it holds 1.5v on the coil and will pulse to 12v during cranking.  My cheap meter couldn't see the pulse.  This behavior is more what I was expecting from a working setup.

Thanks for all the replies.


Offline connie_rider

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Re: Questions on my new project bike.
« Reply #21 on: December 12, 2019, 06:08:07 pm »
Sounds more and more like something is improperly timed..

Ride safe, Ted
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Offline m in sc

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Re: Questions on my new project bike.
« Reply #22 on: December 12, 2019, 06:13:40 pm »
swap the left and right coil trigger wires at the coils. sounds '180' out so to speak. somebody has been monkeying around in there already they may have swapped the trigger leads somewhere down the line.. I'd bet thats it.02
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Offline Bob_C_CT

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Re: Questions on my new project bike.
« Reply #23 on: December 12, 2019, 06:56:42 pm »
If the starter is cranking then the kill, side stand and clutch switches are ok.
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Offline Wageslave

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Re: Questions on my new project bike.
« Reply #24 on: December 14, 2019, 09:45:51 pm »
A little progress, pulled the cover off and found the bike has a Vance & Hines advance trigger wheel already installed.  I also found out that the roll pin that holds the plate in position has broke in half.  Fortunately, it broke high enough that it will still keep the plate from moving around but someone definitely used that nut to turn the crank with.  I pulled the chunk out, and retightened the Allen bolt with the trigger wheel in the correct position.

I attempted to start it with that cover off, and even with some ether applied, it did not want to fire.  I also wanted to do a full compression test, but my tester will not reach all the way down into the spark plugs wells.

It looks like the next step might be checking cam timing, but I might have to get a service manual to pull that off.