Author Topic: Rear Wheel Bearing Issues - I think  (Read 1015 times)

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Offline Wantabeach

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Rear Wheel Bearing Issues - I think
« on: September 09, 2019, 03:11:19 pm »
So my son Eric owns a 92 Concours and we pulled the back and front tires to powder coat the wheels (kids!).  We had to pull the bearing and seals since the powder coat oven goes to 400 degrees or so.  Front wheel and bearings went back on just fine and rotate freely but back wheel is a different story.   When the wheels came back we installed the bearings and seals, reassembled the other wheel parts including the "distance collars" (spacers) and mounted the wheel back on the bike.  It was a tight fit but it all went on just fine and the wheel spun freely until we tighten the bolt.  After tighten, the wheel did not spin at all.  I notice that the outer rim of the wheel was touching the "final gearcase".  After looking at my 2006 Concours, I notice that there is about a 1/16 inch gap between the wheel rim and the final gearcase.  Since all the spacers where in and bearings and seals appear to be flush with the outer wheel housings as you would expect, we were stumped.  We also double checked the order of the parts and spaces and collars, etc. 

I read in one post that they purposefully left a c-clip off the left side (gearcase side) so that once everything locks down some movement is allowed and it will self adjust at some level.  That worries me so I took the wheel back off to inspect seals and bearing positions but nothing came to my attention. 

So what could have happened?  Could I have driven a bearings to far?  Not enough?  One thing I did NOT do when installing the bearing was to "freeze them over night" per the instruction manual. 

Happy to send pics if you think it will help.

Paul and Eric.
2006 Kawasaki Concours
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Offline works4me

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Re: Rear Wheel Bearing Issues - I think
« Reply #1 on: September 09, 2019, 04:25:53 pm »
Did you remove the powder coating from the bearing seat?

Offline Wantabeach

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Re: Rear Wheel Bearing Issues - I think
« Reply #2 on: September 09, 2019, 04:32:23 pm »
They did not powder coat in there.
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Offline MAN OF BLUES

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Re: Rear Wheel Bearing Issues - I think
« Reply #3 on: September 09, 2019, 06:21:41 pm »
from what you explain, I suspect you missed installing the "outer" axle "end spacer tube".

Many people find that it ends up "staying" inside the rear drive housing, only to fall out and roll away unseen prior to re-assembly...
It looks just like the spacer tube that gets installed between the bearings in the hub, but is slightly shorter it is 89 mm long... it can be seen below 92027

The one between the bearings is the 92027 B...and the longer of the 2 spacers. it's 105.5mm long

also make sure the "hat shaped" spacer is in place on the nut end, on the hub, at that seal...
« Last Edit: September 09, 2019, 06:30:24 pm by MAN OF BLUES »

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Offline Wantabeach

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Re: Rear Wheel Bearing Issues - I think
« Reply #4 on: September 09, 2019, 07:09:19 pm »
from what you explain, I suspect you missed installing the "outer" axle "end spacer tube".

Many people find that it ends up "staying" inside the rear drive housing, only to fall out and roll away unseen prior to re-assembly...
It looks just like the spacer tube that gets installed between the bearings in the hub, but is slightly shorter it is 89 mm long... it can be seen below 92027

The one between the bearings is the 92027 B...and the longer of the 2 spacers. it's 105.5mm long

also make sure the "hat shaped" spacer is in place on the nut end, on the hub, at that seal...

Thank you Man of Blues but both of those are in there already.
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Offline mgoodrich

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Re: Rear Wheel Bearing Issues - I think
« Reply #5 on: September 09, 2019, 08:13:54 pm »
My question would be how thick is the powder coating itself?

Is it built up enough on the rim of the wheel that it took up the 16 of an inch you see on your 2006?

Offline Wantabeach

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Re: Rear Wheel Bearing Issues - I think
« Reply #6 on: September 09, 2019, 08:43:40 pm »
My question would be how thick is the powder coating itself?

Is it built up enough on the rim of the wheel that it took up the 16 of an inch you see on your 2006?

I do not believe the powder coating was on the edge of the wheel hub that would connect to the gearcase and the gearcase was not powder coated.

Paul.
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Offline Wantabeach

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Re: Rear Wheel Bearing Issues - I think
« Reply #7 on: September 09, 2019, 08:50:03 pm »
Is it possible to drive the bearing on the left side (gearcase) too far?  Just logically, it seems that I would have had to drive the bearing too far on the gearcase side whereby the spacer that goes between the wheel and the gearcase would not have been able to keep the proper spacing.

Make sense ?

Paul
2006 Kawasaki Concours
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Offline Daytona_Mike

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Re: Rear Wheel Bearing Issues - I think
« Reply #8 on: September 09, 2019, 09:16:17 pm »
My first thought was the same as MOB's but you say the spacer(s)  are installed correctly.

  I saw where one person had their rims powder coated ( I too had mine powder coated ) but their issue was the bearings were loose in the wheel.  Turned out that when they sand blasted and prepped the rims for coating they also blasted the bearing housings and enlarged them  rendering the rims no good.
 I don't think that is your issue but I thought I should  mention it just in case.

Also I was told not to reuse my old bearings because sometimes they have to be slide- hammered out or pounded out if you do not have a press. Did your bearings come out easily  and go back in too easily.  Just asking. Grasping at straws basically.
Maybe some pictures for us to look at would help.
« Last Edit: September 09, 2019, 09:24:17 pm by Daytona_Mike »
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Offline Wantabeach

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Re: Rear Wheel Bearing Issues - I think
« Reply #9 on: September 09, 2019, 09:28:31 pm »
My first thought was the same as MOB's but you say the spacer(s)  are installed correctly.

  I saw where one person had their rims powder coated ( I too had mine powder coated ) but their issue was the bearings were loose in the wheel.  Turned out that when they sand blasted and prepped the rims for coating they also blasted the bearing housings and enlarged them  rendering the rims no good.
 I don't think that is your issue but I thought I should  mention it just in case.

Also I was told not to reuse my old bearings because sometimes they have to be slide- hammered out or pounded out if you do not have a press. Did your bearings come out easily  and go back in too easily.  Just asking. Grasping at straws basically.
Maybe some pictures for us to look at would help.

They did not touch the bearing area thankfully.  I’m using new bearings.

Thank you.
Paul
2006 Kawasaki Concours
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Offline Wantabeach

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Re: Rear Wheel Bearing Issues - I think
« Reply #10 on: September 09, 2019, 09:37:03 pm »
How about this.

Is the left side bearing position dependent on the right side? Since the instruction are to install the right side first with the c-clip, insert spacer and then install left side, is that how the left side bearing is positioned laterally?  It is possible that we did not seat the right side all the way even though it cleared the c-clip which is installed.  We did not freeze the bearings overnight as per instructions and those bearing went in real hard (harder than front for sure). If i did not drive the right side all the way and the left side positioning is dependent, this would cause the left side bearing to be to far to the right side, providing too much space for the left side wheel / spacer / gearcase positioning and allowing the left side wheel hub to touch the gearcase.

Thoughts?

Paul.
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Offline MAN OF BLUES

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Re: Rear Wheel Bearing Issues - I think
« Reply #11 on: September 09, 2019, 10:08:03 pm »
ok, I had 2 beers, and have to ask again...  :beerchug: :??: :??:

you say the tube spacers are installed correctly.. but now, you get the "pinch".. are you positive, you installed the spacers in the correct spots?  I'm not trying to be belittling, or say anything to make you mad, but ....  the wheel "stackup" is fixed by the fact of the right side bearing, shoved in, and the "clip ring installed", and the remainder of the parts are reassembled.. i know powder coating isn't gonna push stuff out that much, to make a pinch... if you put the "short sleeve", in the wheel, between the bearings...  that will occur.. just grabbing straws as I have had these parts off, and in hands, and written about doing this service a long while ago. And have done it a number of times...  Pull the wheel, and measure the length of the "sleeve" that sits between the gear case, and left hand bearing face......
I gave the lengths above.. there is about 1" difference between the 2...just keep saying this...

30 YEARS OF KAW.....Rich R. (the other one..)  COG 5977  JUSTAMEMBAHNOW
and if you are gonna call me names... it's MR. Analdweeb if you please...

Offline Wantabeach

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Re: Rear Wheel Bearing Issues - I think
« Reply #12 on: September 10, 2019, 12:28:10 am »
ok, I had 2 beers, and have to ask again...  :beerchug: :??: :??:

you say the tube spacers are installed correctly.. but now, you get the "pinch".. are you positive, you installed the spacers in the correct spots?  I'm not trying to be belittling, or say anything to make you mad, but ....  the wheel "stackup" is fixed by the fact of the right side bearing, shoved in, and the "clip ring installed", and the remainder of the parts are reassembled.. i know powder coating isn't gonna push stuff out that much, to make a pinch... if you put the "short sleeve", in the wheel, between the bearings...  that will occur.. just grabbing straws as I have had these parts off, and in hands, and written about doing this service a long while ago. And have done it a number of times...  Pull the wheel, and measure the length of the "sleeve" that sits between the gear case, and left hand bearing face......
I gave the lengths above.. there is about 1" difference between the 2...just keep saying this...

Thank you. I will reinstall the wheel tonight or tomorrow to be sure but the spacer between the bearings in the wheel touch each bearing when i feel with my index fingers and the short spacer was right there when i pulled the wheel off. I would have had to have missed the short spacer and pushed it to the side as I drove the axle by it in the installation of the wheel. Not likely IMO. 

Let me know what you think of my logic in my last post.

Thanks
Paul.
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Offline MAN OF BLUES

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Re: Rear Wheel Bearing Issues - I think
« Reply #13 on: September 10, 2019, 02:58:45 am »
Umm.. shove the axle, with the washer, slightly into the drive.. reach in and slide on the outer spacer I noted... then install the wheel assembly, outer spacer, and etc..

just make sure the spacer you DID install in the hub, was the LONG one... opposed to the shorter one...the short one is the one outside... and spaces the rear end from the wheel...


Measure again.. I've removed a bunch of these rear tires.. a big bunch of them.. .

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Offline Wantabeach

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Re: Rear Wheel Bearing Issues - I think
« Reply #14 on: September 10, 2019, 03:07:46 am »
Umm.. shove the axle, with the washer, slightly into the drive.. reach in and slide on the outer spacer I noted... then install the wheel assembly, outer spacer, and etc..

just make sure the spacer you DID install in the hub, was the LONG one... opposed to the shorter one...the short one is the one outside... and spaces the rear end from the wheel...


Measure again.. I've removed a bunch of these rear tires.. a big bunch of them.. .

Will do.  It will be tomorrow when I try to install again and will report back.
 
Thanks
Paul
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Offline MAN OF BLUES

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Re: Rear Wheel Bearing Issues - I think
« Reply #15 on: September 10, 2019, 03:17:08 am »
 :great:

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Offline Bob_C_CT

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Re: Rear Wheel Bearing Issues - I think
« Reply #16 on: September 10, 2019, 08:31:28 am »
If the spacers check out, a real long shot, but make sure your bearings are the correct width.
« Last Edit: September 10, 2019, 09:09:21 am by Bob_C_CT »
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Offline Wantabeach

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Re: Rear Wheel Bearing Issues - I think
« Reply #17 on: September 10, 2019, 05:30:41 pm »
If the spacers check out, a real long shot, but make sure your bearings are the correct width.

May be a bit hard to measure since the bearings are on the wheel but I’ll figure something out.
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Online m in sc

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Re: Rear Wheel Bearing Issues - I think
« Reply #18 on: September 10, 2019, 06:00:27 pm »
if you have a set of calipers should be easy to do with the tail of it from the other side of the wheel through the hole.   it just feels like something got swapped or forgotten though.

Offline MAN OF BLUES

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Re: Rear Wheel Bearing Issues - I think
« Reply #19 on: September 10, 2019, 09:06:48 pm »
If the spacers check out, a real long shot, but make sure your bearings are the correct width.

May be a bit hard to measure since the bearings are on the wheel but I’ll figure something out.

Look at the bearings, and write down the numbers marked on them... and report to us, or tell us whose bearings, or what you purchased, so we can simplify it for you.. number would be on the box also, but i'm sure that's gone now...

all rear bearings are the same thru all the years...

Kaw # 601B6304ZZ

other suppliers use generic bearing number, so it will be common also;
#6304-ZZ, or #6304-2RS, depending on who manufactured it..
(20mm bore x 52mm OD x 15mm wide)
« Last Edit: September 10, 2019, 09:13:12 pm by MAN OF BLUES »

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Offline Wantabeach

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Re: Rear Wheel Bearing Issues - I think
« Reply #20 on: September 11, 2019, 02:56:32 am »
So I mounted the back wheel again tonight with the same result.  All the spacers are in there correctly but the wheel will not spin freely after its tighten down.  Again, the space between the wheel and the gearcase is minimal if not touching (see picture attached). 

Does anyone know if the left wheel bearing bottoms out in the wheel or does it bottom out against the inner spacer (between the bearings) and thus the right bearing?  One possible theory is that I did not pound the right bearing in far enough which is allowing to much space on the other side.  The instruction say to install the right side bearing and circlip first, the long spacer and then install the left bearing (which has no circlip).  So if the right bearing did not bottom out, the left bearing could be too far to the center (right) allowing too much space between the left bearing, short spacer and gearcase and thus allowing the wheel to touch the gearcase. The right side circlip is installed but there may be room to install it even if the right bearing is not bottomed out. 

If everything was in its place and fixed to the inner race of the bearing, the wheel should spin freely but it does not.  We have the right bearings.  We bought the good ones from Murphs.  I somehow must not have the right bearing installed correctly.  I guess I will need to tear it a part and try again unless someone has a better theory. 

Am I the only one who have encountered this problem?

Thanks
Paul
 
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Offline Wantabeach

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Re: Rear Wheel Bearing Issues - I think
« Reply #21 on: September 11, 2019, 02:58:28 am »
If the spacers check out, a real long shot, but make sure your bearings are the correct width.

May be a bit hard to measure since the bearings are on the wheel but I’ll figure something out.

Look at the bearings, and write down the numbers marked on them... and report to us, or tell us whose bearings, or what you purchased, so we can simplify it for you.. number would be on the box also, but i'm sure that's gone now...

all rear bearings are the same thru all the years...

Kaw # 601B6304ZZ

other suppliers use generic bearing number, so it will be common also;
#6304-ZZ, or #6304-2RS, depending on who manufactured it..
(20mm bore x 52mm OD x 15mm wide)

We got them from Murphs so they are the good ones but we don't we have the packaging.  Bearings are installed so I can't see the numbers right now.

Paul
2006 Kawasaki Concours
2006 Harley Heritage (sold)

Offline BrianD

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Re: Rear Wheel Bearing Issues - I think
« Reply #22 on: September 11, 2019, 09:50:57 am »
I just had my rear wheel off (putting a new rear tire on), and by the looks of the caliper side spacer in the photo above, I'm beginning to suspect that your theory about not getting the right side wheel bearing fully seated is your problem.  When I reassembled my rear wheel, I'm pretty sure the caliper side spacer did not stick out that far from the hub, which would indicate my bearing was seated further into the wheel.  From looking at pictures in the service manual, the rear bearings should be driven in until they stop against the inner ridge on the wheel.  If I was you, I would take the wheel off, remove the seal and circlip from the caliper side, and see if you can drive the bearing in any further.  Worth a shot.  Also, there is a comment in the service manual about having the "marked or shielded side" of the bearing facing out.  Hopefully that's how you installed them.  Good luck.
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Offline Lee

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Re: Rear Wheel Bearing Issues - I think
« Reply #23 on: September 11, 2019, 10:57:00 am »
In reading this string of posts seems odd in extreme if all is right why wrong! It would have to be something simple.

The thoughts on bearing not pressed fully is certainly worth the trouble to check. Just use a beverage can sliver cut & bent appropriately as feeler gauge or a piece of wire hammered flat. Dirt or debri from press home may be a factor.

After pressing bearings of all sorts. I find the method where one uses freeze of bearing combined with heat to part to be extremely easy on parts and installer.

Of note: too much heat will allow bearing to slip backward and not seat. This is especially true if flipping part to install bearing on opposite side while still warm.

Sad to say I have also had a sliver of metal from false start with press or hammer be a problem with full seating. If I ever get a false start I now remove bearing and check for metal slivers.

Never had that issue with freeze/heat method. In some cases bearing just drops right in.

Good luck on finding source of problem.

Offline Steve in Sunny Fla

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Re: Rear Wheel Bearing Issues - I think
« Reply #24 on: September 11, 2019, 12:52:46 pm »
    I got caught on this the first time I did wheel bearings. IIRC one (I don't recall which) side has a bottoming ridge and the bearing must be driven to that point, then the other bearing is driven to the point that it takes the slack out from the spacer tube, but no more or it will preload the bearings and burn them out in short order.  Steve
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