Author Topic: Rod Replacement  (Read 8913 times)

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Offline Kawadog

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Rod Replacement
« on: July 30, 2012, 02:08:14 am »
Well my noise is a bent rod. #3

I have decided to replace it. Where is the best place to get one?
I guess I will need a Wrist Pin also.

Do I need a gasket set?

What am I getting into? Anyone's advice would be very helpful

I figure I could get a used motor but I still would have to remove and replace it. Sounds like the same work and I know this engine.

Thanks for your help...Mark

Offline rk970

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Re: Rod Replacement
« Reply #1 on: July 30, 2012, 02:32:14 am »
IIRC,  It may be possible to get the #3 rod out with out splitting the cases.. Cylinder head has to come off (duh).  May even be able to leave the bottom end in the frame and not pull the cylinders.. .  Pull the head off, Oil pan, and balancer shaft.  Unbolt #3 rod and push it out the top.. 
I am sure somebody with more experience then me will chime in though.
Rk

Offline Kawadog

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Re: Rod Replacement
« Reply #2 on: July 30, 2012, 03:02:43 am »
Thanks RK...If I do not need to split the cases that would be save a lot of work.

Do I need to get a pair of them?
MD

Offline troidus

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Re: Rod Replacement
« Reply #3 on: July 30, 2012, 03:42:25 am »
Do I need to get a pair of them?

The replacement rod needs to be the same weight class as the one you're replacing.  The original rod will have a letter code on it.  Also check your piston skirt to make sure it didn't get mangled, check the cylinder for scuffing, and inspect the rod throw on the crank to make sure it's still smooth.  You'll need a new wrist pin, circlips (snap rings), and bearing shells, in addition to a head and oil pan gasket.  Hopefully you don't need more than that. 

Offline Kawadog

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Re: Rod Replacement
« Reply #4 on: July 30, 2012, 12:22:53 pm »
Thanks for the info troidus,

I might as well jump into this thing with both feet...Mark

I will post after i get it out...mark

Offline JimBob

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Re: Rod Replacement
« Reply #5 on: July 30, 2012, 02:20:32 pm »
Before you get too far down this path, a bent rod is a Really Bad Sign.

Do you know what caused the bent rod?

Generally, if you've bent a rod, there's more damage (scored cylinder walls, damaged piston, etc). Events that bend rods are rather significant - stuff like hydrolock or a dropped valve.

Additionally, the labor required to disassemble an engine far enough to fix a bent rod is typically much of the same effort to get into an engine rebuild (head off, case opened, access to crank, disconnect timing components, etc.). At a minimum that's replacing head gasket and case gaskets.

I'd rarely consider replacing just a rod. For the labor involved (and risk of something else failing later) I'd consider replacing other components (other rod bearings, rings)...depending on the circumstance.

While you have the engine open, take a look around at the other rods, bearings. Make sure you don't put it back together with another problem hiding.




Offline rk970

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Re: Rod Replacement
« Reply #6 on: July 30, 2012, 04:59:54 pm »
I would have to say in my opinion that a bent rod on a zg1000 is due 99.9% of the time from hydrolock.. .  I bet the crank is fine, I even bet the rod bearings will "look" fine also.  The piston pin will be oval (.002~.004in) and if the piston is still in one piece the cylinder will still be fine.. 
But.. zrx and zx 1100/1200 have been known to spin the #3 rod bearing. (basically the same bottom end as the zg/zl/zx900/zx1000).   
Pull the pan and the balance shaft and remove the cap from the #3 rod and take a look...
rk

Offline Daytona_Mike

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Re: Rod Replacement
« Reply #7 on: July 30, 2012, 07:19:00 pm »
Good question. How did the rod get bent?  I have read where others (who know a lot more than me) say you are  better off to source a used engine (make sure you check it for a bend rod) and just  swap that engine in. Much easier and cheaper to do.   The cost of parts, your time and the chances of other issues  cropping up with moving rods and pistons around are are too great (unless you have done it before  and are good at it and have all the correct tools)  only  because you want to keep the  engine that  you already know.

I agree with rk970 on this one. It was hydro-locked.  My guess is  you dont have over flow tubes.
« Last Edit: July 30, 2012, 07:23:29 pm by Daytona_Mike »
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Offline Kawadog

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Re: Rod Replacement
« Reply #8 on: July 30, 2012, 07:50:43 pm »
When I bought the bike i never did any cks because it only had 4900 miles in it.

 The bike always ran great as far as I know as this is the only Conc I have ever ridden.

I am almost positive now after all the posts on this subject that the PO had a hydrolock but not a really bad one.

The bike was running fine when this happened. Maybe after 30,000 miles and a little jumping on her it finally was too much...Don't know.

The sound I am hearing is is either rod knocking or a piston slapping the crank.

I do not know if this would have anything to do with this but Number 3 intake valves had 30 ths clearance.

I could not believe it. In the 5 valve adjustments with this bike I never had a clearance get larger.

I really appreciate your input as I am very mechanically inclined but not a lot of experience with this kind of stuff.




Offline JimBob

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Re: Rod Replacement
« Reply #9 on: July 31, 2012, 05:21:17 pm »
So you don't know definitively that it's a bent rod?

If you have a rod knock (those who've been around engines know the sound, the tone, the frequency it happens, etc), then I'd lean toward a spun rod bearing (or just a bad rod bearing), especially given the description (bike ran fine when bought, has been fine for 25k miles since).

Spun rod bearings typically happen from over-revving, and especially from over-revving without a load (say missing a gear, or just revving the bike in neutral, or sustained excessively high rev's). It may just be a bad bearing - but if it is, you have to ask why that bearing went bad at 30k. Were timely oil changes performed? Was the engine ever run low on oil? (Low oil will KILL bearings).

If it is a bad/spun bearing, then it probably damaged the rod in the process (spun bearings are a result of the rod bearing mount spreading open which then allows the bearing to spin). This requires either a new rod or at least machine work on the rod to ensure it will clamp the bearing sufficiently. That being said a spun bearing is better than a bent rod!

Offline WillyP

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Re: Rod Replacement
« Reply #10 on: July 31, 2012, 06:05:47 pm »
Number 3 intake valves had 30 ths clearance

I have to wonder, are you sure it's a bent rod and not a bent valve? What have you done to determine a rod is bent?
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Offline wild man

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Re: Rod Replacement
« Reply #11 on: July 31, 2012, 11:51:58 pm »
When and if you get the rod out post a pic of the letter on the side of the rod, if it matches what I've got I'll send it to you for postage, I just happen to have three but I gotta see it out first, oh and replace the bearing and wrist pin.
Bill
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Offline Daytona_Mike

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Re: Rod Replacement
« Reply #12 on: August 01, 2012, 12:54:22 am »
.... a piston slapping the crank.
...... I am very mechanically inclined but not a lot of experience with this kind of stuff.

Based on your posting above and  that you really do not know what is wrong  you might think about finding someone who can tell you exactly what is wrong before you tear apart what might possibly be a good engine.
Do not assume  you have a bent rod just  because there are a lot of posts about it.
Measure the piston heights. Do a compression test. Have some one else look at it. Check your timing chain tensioner.
Normally aspirated engines have perpetual turbo lag
2000 Red C10 1052 kit 100+HP  + way more torque.
2008  C14 Silver Dammit Full AreaP- Flies are put back in SISF_Flash
2011  KLR650   688 piston ported and polished
2011  KTM 530    This thing is FUN!!

Offline WillyP

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Re: Rod Replacement
« Reply #13 on: August 01, 2012, 01:11:23 am »
Smart people look like crazy people to stupid people.
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Offline Kawadog

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Re: Rod Replacement
« Reply #14 on: August 01, 2012, 01:56:27 am »
I have checked the adjuster and it is fine. Great idea taking to some one. It sure does sound to me like a rod. I have read a previous post about how to measure your piston height. I will do this first.

As far as Maint goes I do oil changes every 2000 miles ( Mobile One High Mileage 10-40 ).

Never abuse the bike. If taking the bike to 8000 once per ride thru 3 gears is over revving than I am guilty.

When this happened I had gone thru 3 gears less than 8000 and was running at 3000 rpm (50mph) when it happened.

I am basically a 50-80 mph rider.

I have pulled the carbs 3 times, replaced the bevel gear case gasket, 5 valve adjustments and 16 oil changes with filter. I change the coolant with Peak Global Lifetime every 2nd valve adjustment (12,000 mi) She never gets washed with water. I wash the bike with Windex and wax her after every cleaning.

I pretty much obsess over her.

Thus my wife naming her Christine.

Unfortunately she don't fix herself like in the movies.

You guys are great helping me out with this :great:


After I measure the piston height I will know more.

If all are equal, there is a mechanic in town I trust to listen to it.

I will let you know what happens.

thanks for your help...Mark
« Last Edit: August 01, 2012, 02:01:32 am by Kawadog »

Offline TimR

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Re: Rod Replacement
« Reply #15 on: August 01, 2012, 02:25:13 am »
15,000 miles ago I swore my Z1 900 was about to blow up. Still hasn't. Do the simple checks first.
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Offline Daytona_Mike

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Re: Rod Replacement
« Reply #16 on: August 01, 2012, 04:10:32 pm »
Install over flow tubes if you dont already have them. Do it asap.
Normally aspirated engines have perpetual turbo lag
2000 Red C10 1052 kit 100+HP  + way more torque.
2008  C14 Silver Dammit Full AreaP- Flies are put back in SISF_Flash
2011  KLR650   688 piston ported and polished
2011  KTM 530    This thing is FUN!!

Offline Rock

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Re: Rod Replacement
« Reply #17 on: August 01, 2012, 07:04:58 pm »
Wow, and I thought I obsessed, "She never gets washed with water. I wash the bike with Windex and wax her after every cleaning."    :great:

Hope you find the noise/problem.

Phil
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Offline Kawadog

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Re: Rod Replacement
« Reply #18 on: August 01, 2012, 09:53:34 pm »
 :'( Bad news!!!Did a ramp ck on piston height and never got past #1. after I put her in TDC on number one. Marked my dowel. started to do # 2. right before #1 hit the bottom of the stroke the engine locked. the #1 piston is hitting either the crank or something else.

I was hoping for a bent valve...no such luck...so

That leaves me with an issue...Do I go thru the process of taking care of a bent rod on #1 or a spun main bearing. either means splitting the cases or buy a motor out of a chop shop with reasonable miles.

Offline Charlie_Gary_AAD

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Re: Rod Replacement
« Reply #19 on: August 01, 2012, 09:59:04 pm »
Are you sure it's #1?  Might be #4.  Could also be crud on top of the rings for 2 or 3 hitting a ring ridge.  That can make you think you dropped hard parts into the cylinders.  I would try reversing the rotation and going forward again to see if it will swing past the hard spot.
Later, 
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Offline Kawadog

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Re: Rod Replacement
« Reply #20 on: August 01, 2012, 10:49:42 pm »
Tried it...I did a valve adjustment. Then started the motor afterward. It started banging on the left side.
I shut the engine off.The crank has not been moved until just now. That's why I do not believe it is #4.
Either way it means not 2 or 3 and splitting the cases not something I am looking forward to but I guess something I will have to do.

Bummer.....mark


Offline wild man

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Re: Rod Replacement
« Reply #21 on: August 02, 2012, 12:22:21 am »
Quote
after I put her in TDC on number one. Marked my dowel. started to do # 2.

Number 1 piston is contrasted for height against #4 cause there both at TDC, then you do 2 and 3 together at their TDC 
Bill
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Offline troidus

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Re: Rod Replacement
« Reply #22 on: August 02, 2012, 12:45:53 am »
Quote
after I put her in TDC on number one. Marked my dowel. started to do # 2.

Number 1 piston is contrasted for height against #4 cause there both at TDC, then you do 2 and 3 together at their TDC

This is true, but it sounds like he's hitting hard parts. 

OP, make sure you're rolling the engine forward (CCW when viewed from the left side of the engine) when you check things.  If a guide or tensioner is out of whack, you could be bunching up a chain and locking up that way. 

Offline Kawadog

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Re: Rod Replacement
« Reply #23 on: August 02, 2012, 01:55:29 am »
10-4...I did reverse the motion and rotated in the right direction just in case.

I was trying to move the crank past the hitting of something hard which the starter will do as well as the engine running.

I am perplexed as I had no problem rotating it while I was doing my Valve adjustment.
I ran the motor for maybe 6sec. It was of course knocking the whole time.

I have resigned myself to pull the motor...S@#T...

Offline Wirenutt

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Re: Rod Replacement
« Reply #24 on: August 02, 2012, 01:59:55 am »
May I suggest pulling the head with the engine in the bike? That way, you'll be able to get an eyeball on your valves and your pistons. You will then know for sure it the engine has to come out.

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