Author Topic: Starter trouble or electrical gremlins?  (Read 6977 times)

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Offline Allmendinger

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Re: Starter trouble or electrical gremlins?
« Reply #25 on: August 20, 2016, 04:25:18 pm »
If you are hearing a whirring sound, or feeling vibration from the motor spinning, the starter is spinning but not connecting to your engine.

There is a clutch and a chain drive from the starter motor to the engine's crankshaft.

I don't like the sound of that!  Dare I ask what kind of a job that is?
« Last Edit: August 20, 2016, 04:55:27 pm by Allmendinger »

Offline JDM

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Re: Starter trouble or electrical gremlins?
« Reply #26 on: August 20, 2016, 08:26:43 pm »
If you are hearing a whirring sound, or feeling vibration from the motor spinning, the starter is spinning but not connecting to your engine.

There is a clutch and a chain drive from the starter motor to the engine's crankshaft.


I don't like the sound of that!  Dare I ask what kind of a job that is?


You need to think about one of these. HTH JD   http://www.ebay.com/itm/05-Kawasaki-Concours-ZG1000-STARTER-MOTOR-21163-1161-/182198590761

Offline MAN OF BLUES

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Re: Starter trouble or electrical gremlins?
« Reply #27 on: August 20, 2016, 08:30:49 pm »
Ok, I read post over at ADV where someone pointed my to get involved,
With regards to what is spinning/whirring" we need some better clarification...

I'll also ask this, and I know I'm stretching it, but have you removed the tank, pulled the sparkplugs, thrown a towel over the top of the valve cover, and tried to turn the engine over?

Hey, I just have to ask, before saying to pull the starter off..I've had hydro on engines, without seeing or smelling fuel...let's rule that out first.
Id also have to say to check the interlocks, both the side stand, and the clutch switch, I've had both that had "marginal" issues, that allowed a click, but a no starter function.

Id refrain from trying to add another ground to frame only, in an attempt to get engine grounding, id make sure the cable that attaches to the engine is viable, frame ground doesn't matter as much as engine ground....because the starter is attached to..... the engine.

Lotsa good hints are being tossed out here to you by others, but methodically tracing points of failure on starter needs should be a top down flow chart, not a shotgun thing.  I'll be watching this closer, and attempt a bit more help from afar.

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Offline Allmendinger

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Re: Starter trouble or electrical gremlins?
« Reply #28 on: August 20, 2016, 08:49:50 pm »
man of blues, I've not removed the plugs and tried to turn over yet. I've been avoiding it because I thought I eliminated the usual causes. ie: SISF carb redo with overflow tubes installed and new oem petcock. I will try to do this later tonight. in this situation, by turning over, do you mean with the button? or through timing cover?

when I do what connie_rider suggested, with the battery from my mower, the whirring sound appears to be coming from the starter as I can feel it in the starter with my fingers.

it only whirrs for about 2-3 seconds then stops. kinda like the battery on tractor goes dead. which it doesn't.

thx for all your replies.

Offline MAN OF BLUES

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Re: Starter trouble or electrical gremlins?
« Reply #29 on: August 20, 2016, 08:57:38 pm »
Spin the engine using the normal starter actuation, the button... you could follow up with using the wrench on the stator bolt if you desire, or trying to turn the rear tire with bike in gear, and plugs out, there should be no resistance to turn over when plugs are out.

If the starter "whirrs" and stops, it still could be a poor connection of that ground wire to the engine..

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Offline Allmendinger

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Re: Starter trouble or electrical gremlins?
« Reply #30 on: August 20, 2016, 09:22:18 pm »
just pulled coils & plugs a long as I have the tank off. still only get a click when I push the button.

all plugs came out dry. shined light down into plug holes. all appears to be dry. stuck a small wooden dowel into each hole. came out dry each time.

will try to check clutch & kickstand switches after dinner

Offline Allmendinger

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Re: Starter trouble or electrical gremlins?
« Reply #31 on: August 20, 2016, 09:29:04 pm »
doesn't whir with the starter button, only when I do what connie_ryder says. the rear wheel turns in 6th but not easily with plugs out
« Last Edit: August 20, 2016, 10:20:23 pm by Allmendinger »

Offline Thud300

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Re: Starter trouble or electrical gremlins?
« Reply #32 on: August 21, 2016, 06:01:52 am »
I'm becoming highly suspicious of the battery itself...  was it load tested? I know a conductance tester indicated enough cca's to power a small village, but the battery needs to be checked under a load.
Recently I had a battery go from healthy to paperweight on a very short ride...
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Offline JDM

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Re: Starter trouble or electrical gremlins?
« Reply #33 on: August 21, 2016, 11:25:14 am »
doesn't whir with the starter button, only when I do what connie_ryder says. the rear wheel turns in 6th but not easily with plugs out

If you have ran the test I talked about, you need to pull the starter off and get you another one, before you "F" up more than you can fix. That all I am going to say about that.

Offline Allmendinger

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Re: Starter trouble or electrical gremlins?
« Reply #34 on: August 21, 2016, 03:43:17 pm »
JDM I did your tests also. I guess the better way to describe the "whir" is to say the starter is faintly groaning(?) 

if I'd do get another starter will/am I still having a grounding/wiring issue?

 just did the bent rod test per SISF's vid................ looks to be fine. it does concern me as to why the wheel turns so hard w/o the plugs in.

sorry about all the questions everyone, I just don't want to throw a ton of $$$ at this.

thx again.
« Last Edit: August 21, 2016, 04:08:12 pm by Allmendinger »

Offline WillyP

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Re: Starter trouble or electrical gremlins?
« Reply #35 on: August 21, 2016, 06:34:59 pm »
I think there's a communication issue here.

Where are you located? Is there anyone near you that might be willing to take a look-see and help?
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Offline Allmendinger

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Re: Starter trouble or electrical gremlins?
« Reply #36 on: August 21, 2016, 06:43:06 pm »
elmira, ny

Offline MAN OF BLUES

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Re: Starter trouble or electrical gremlins?
« Reply #37 on: August 21, 2016, 08:01:40 pm »
(?) 

if I'd do get another starter will/am I still having a grounding/wiring issue?
...., I just don't want to throw a ton of $$$ at this.

thx again.


Understood....
As far as buying a starter, before you get in there and remove that cable that has not been cleaned, its a coin flip.... when you go to install a new starter, your gonna have to cross that cable access anyways, to get the starter in....

So.... clean that engine cable... and when in there, with the batt disconnected, clean the terminal on the starter also...
That stuff is free.... I'm still having a time with the fact you don't get a click from the button, but you get one from jumping the relay....
That is another issue... when you replaced said solenoid/relay did you wire it correctly?????
Are all the appropriate wires down near it intact and connected ?


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Offline Allmendinger

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Re: Starter trouble or electrical gremlins?
« Reply #38 on: August 21, 2016, 08:27:42 pm »
(?) 

if I'd do get another starter will/am I still having a grounding/wiring issue?
...., I just don't want to throw a ton of $$$ at this.

thx again.


Understood....
As far as buying a starter, before you get in there and remove that cable that has not been cleaned, its a coin flip.... when you go to install a new starter, your gonna have to cross that cable access anyways, to get the starter in....

So.... clean that engine cable... and when in there, with the batt disconnected, clean the terminal on the starter also...
That stuff is free.... I'm still having a time with the fact you don't get a click from the button, but you get one from jumping the relay....
That is another issue... when you replaced said solenoid/relay did you wire it correctly?????
Are all the appropriate wires down near it intact and connected ?

I do get a click, in the relay from the starter button. sorry if I conveyed that wrong.

Even when I bypass the battery and use my mower battery like connie_rider recommended, the results are the same

I took a picture of the relay before removal and reinstalled the same way.

I am unable to get a wrench on that ground wire as it is directly under the airbox. which i cant seem to move out of the way.

I'm assuming I have to take the airbox/carbs out to replace the starter? between the airbox, oil fill and all the wires there it doesn't look like it will come out

Another concern is that you said the rear wheel would turn easily w/o the plugs in. it doesn't. it takes quite a bit of effort to turn it in 6th.

I'm not opposed to putting another  starter in, I'm not working anyway it will give me something to do. I just don't want to do it and have a major problem when I'm done

thx again

Offline JPD

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Re: Starter trouble or electrical gremlins?
« Reply #39 on: August 21, 2016, 08:38:55 pm »
A lot of good info in this post, but go back and check voltages with a meter. Even a cheap H/F meter.
1st at the battery, then with the starter button pushed.
2nd battery side of solenoid.
3ed starter side of solenoid
4th small terminal on the solenoid to test starter button and interlocks
5th the terminal on the starter
If voltage drop with the starter button pushed is excessive, it is the battery or the starter. Disconnect the bike battery and jumper your mower battery to the bike battery leads, do the meter tests again.
Last before you replace the bike starter, take the starter off the mower and connect to the bike solenoid and connect a jumper cable from mower starter to a good ground on the bike. See if the bike systems will turn the mower starter.

Offline MAN OF BLUES

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Re: Starter trouble or electrical gremlins?
« Reply #40 on: August 21, 2016, 09:15:20 pm »
(?) 

if I'd do get another starter will/am I still having a grounding/wiring issue?
...., I just don't want to throw a ton of $$$ at this.

thx again.


Understood....
As far as buying a starter, before you get in there and remove that cable that has not been cleaned, its a coin flip.... when you go to install a new starter, your gonna have to cross that cable access anyways, to get the starter in....

So.... clean that engine cable... and when in there, with the batt disconnected, clean the terminal on the starter also...
That stuff is free.... I'm still having a time with the fact you don't get a click from the button, but you get one from jumping the relay....
That is another issue... when you replaced said solenoid/relay did you wire it correctly?????
Are all the appropriate wires down near it intact and connected ?

I do get a click, in the relay from the starter button. sorry if I conveyed that wrong.

Even when I bypass the battery and use my mower battery like connie_rider recommended, the results are the same

I took a picture of the relay before removal and reinstalled the same way.

I am unable to get a wrench on that ground wire as it is directly under the airbox. which i cant seem to move out of the way.

I'm assuming I have to take the airbox/carbs out to replace the starter? between the airbox, oil fill and all the wires there it doesn't look like it will come out

Another concern is that you said the rear wheel would turn easily w/o the plugs in. it doesn't. it takes quite a bit of effort to turn it in 6th.

I'm not opposed to putting another  starter in, I'm not working anyway it will give me something to do. I just don't want to do it and have a major problem when I'm done

thx again
Sorry for misleading you on turning the engine over with the plugs out, using the rear wheel, it will turn, but not as easy as if it was like in fifth gear, but still easier than having to pull the stator cover.. NOTE.. if the bikes not running, you won't be able to get it into any higher gear than first... (there is a lockout, I do the upshifts on a bike that is running already, with the bike on centerstand, and engine spinning, shifting up into high gear, for valve lash checks.. the wheel does turn easily then.. but I mislead you...)

As for the wire..
You are gonna have to bite the bullet, pull carbs, and airbox, and get with that program. If that ground is the issue, it ain't fixing itself.
These are the things I speak about, as being difficult to convey in order of top down diagnosis, if this bike was in my garage, it would have been run thru within one day, all of the afformentioned procedures, minus a lot of them I would never have done. But I always welcome input, if there is some semblence of historic problem solving directly related to the bike, and past experiences with same.

Gonna have to check that wire sometime.
If that isn't a problem, at least it narrows it down, and you can spend money on a starter...and hope that is the issue.

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Offline Allmendinger

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Re: Starter trouble or electrical gremlins?
« Reply #41 on: August 22, 2016, 12:05:56 am »
jpd, some measurements with a meter matched to your question #'s

1. 12.8 drops 2v quickly after pushing button
2. battery side of relay,same as at battery
3. starter side of relay 0 until button pushed then same as at battery but drops 2v quickly
4.the small 2 prong plug
      at b/y wire 0 button pushed or not
      at r/y wire 0 w/o button. 2v less than battery when button pushed
5. terminal on starter 0 until button pushed. drops quickly when button is pushed.

above was mirrored with mower battery. didn't take starter off mower. would rather take carbs off bike lol

I'm assuming dropping 2v in about 2sec is excessive?

Offline Allmendinger

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Re: Starter trouble or electrical gremlins?
« Reply #42 on: August 22, 2016, 12:16:42 am »
man of blues, will start on carb removal/connection cleaning/ maybe starter removal tomorrow.

I will also check the earlier mentioned link for starter purchase

thx again for all the guiding everyone

p.s. can you expand on the "hope" the starter is the issue a bit

Offline JDM

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Re: Starter trouble or electrical gremlins?
« Reply #43 on: August 22, 2016, 01:47:44 am »
man of blues, will start on carb removal/connection cleaning/ maybe starter removal tomorrow.

I will also check the earlier mentioned link for starter purchase

thx again for all the guiding everyone

p.s. can you expand on the "hope" the starter is the issue a bit

Scott, take your time and take some photos as you go. I bet the first round of beer that you will do just fine with this project. You will gain some valuable knowledge about your C10 in the process. Poke your chest out, lift your head up, get your hands greasy, and walk proud, as you are about to fix your bike. JD   

Offline Allmendinger

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Re: Starter trouble or electrical gremlins?
« Reply #44 on: August 22, 2016, 09:55:06 am »
thx for the confidence JD. truth be told I like to tinker. I did a bunch on this bike over the winter including carb remove/install.

the key word being winter. this time of year I'd much rather be riding than wrenching. in fact if this would have happened in Nov. I would have looked forward to it.

plus I suck at diagnosing electrical stuff. just to make sure, I'll do the safety switches later before I dig into removing the carbs

I'm hoping the dr lets me go back to work today. if not I'll have something to keep me out of the wife's way

Offline Thud300

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Re: Starter trouble or electrical gremlins?
« Reply #45 on: August 22, 2016, 02:20:12 pm »
Here's a non-invasive test that may help. Meter on volts scale.

One lead on battery positive terminal, other lead to hot connection at starter. Hit button and hold for a second, record reading. A good result is very low, less than .3 volts.

Same test on negative side. One lead on battery negative, other to frame. Hit button, hold, again a good result is very low.

A reading of anything more than 1 volt indicates a bad connection on that side of the circuit. If you get a large reading, voila.
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Offline Allmendinger

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Re: Starter trouble or electrical gremlins?
« Reply #46 on: August 22, 2016, 06:36:34 pm »
Here's a non-invasive test that may help. Meter on volts scale.

One lead on battery positive terminal, other lead to hot connection at starter. Hit button and hold for a second, record reading. A good result is very low, less than .3 volts.

Same test on negative side. One lead on battery negative, other to frame. Hit button, hold, again a good result is very low.

A reading of anything more than 1 volt indicates a bad connection on that side of the circuit. If you get a large reading, voila.

neg 0 pos .1

went to check/clean clutch and kickstand safety switches. there doesn't appear to be a kickstand switch on it. nor can I find any wires leading anywhere near the kickstand
« Last Edit: August 22, 2016, 07:04:35 pm by Allmendinger, Reason: forgot »

Offline MAN OF BLUES

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Re: Starter trouble or electrical gremlins?
« Reply #47 on: August 22, 2016, 07:41:20 pm »
Here's a non-invasive test that may help. Meter on volts scale.

One lead on battery positive terminal, other lead to hot connection at starter. Hit button and hold for a second, record reading. A good result is very low, less than .3 volts.

Same test on negative side. One lead on battery negative, other to frame. Hit button, hold, again a good result is very low.

A reading of anything more than 1 volt indicates a bad connection on that side of the circuit. If you get a large reading, voila.

might want to add a test to preclude the effectivity of the actual ground cable connecting to the engine...
as that one has not been touched yet, and that's the one that carries load for the starter, not the frame ground, which is only a small wire where the left coil attaches... :truce:

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Offline Allmendinger

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Re: Starter trouble or electrical gremlins?
« Reply #48 on: August 22, 2016, 09:11:29 pm »
I'm assuming that I should do it as described above. I did and got 0 at the coil ground and at the motor ground. am I getting closer to eliminating everything but the starter? lol hopefully?

hopefully tonight or tomorrow I'll get the carbs out.

if so how does one test the starter once out? will one from any year fit?

Offline Thud300

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Re: Starter trouble or electrical gremlins?
« Reply #49 on: August 22, 2016, 10:49:51 pm »
Bench testing a starter motor is fairly straightforward. Hook a pair of jumper cables to a good battery, then positive to the hot connection on the motor and make the last connection negative to the starter body. (Hold that starter down!) You should get a spark and then a quietly free spinning motor.

Real big spark and no spin: motor locked up, which is a dead short circuit, so don't keep the cables on it unless you like smoke.
No spark and no spin: motor went open circuit.

I don't have access to my Clymer manual, so I'm wondering here if the starter motor can be removed for testing with the starter clutch and chain still in the engine...?

Definitely do what you can to verify that main ground is secure before pulling the starter.


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