Author Topic: Stick Coils and Audiovox Cruise Issue - I think  (Read 419 times)

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Stick Coils and Audiovox Cruise Issue - I think
« on: June 24, 2019, 02:28:02 pm »
Has anyone who has installed stick coils on their C10 have any issues with their Audiovox cruise control not engaging properly? Worked fine the day before, but after installing the stick coils yesterday, it now engages, but immediately kicks right back out. Had to do the brake light relay thing several months ago when I installed rear LED lights, so that’s taken care of.

In no big rush to pull the tank again, but would like to get it sorted out as quickly as I can. Other than this little gotcha, the bike runs fine with the new stick coils.

??????????
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Offline RWulf

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Re: Stick Coils and Audiovox Cruise Issue - I think
« Reply #1 on: June 24, 2019, 02:40:25 pm »
I put stick coils on two bikes. The original ones that T-Crow sold and a set
off a Suzuki from E-Bay. Did not effect eather bike they were installed on.
Audiovox just keep on working.

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Re: Stick Coils and Audiovox Cruise Issue - I think
« Reply #2 on: June 24, 2019, 03:11:27 pm »
I put stick coils on two bikes. The original ones that T-Crow sold and a set
off a Suzuki from E-Bay. Did not effect eather bike they were installed on.
Audiovox just keep on working.

Appreciate it. Obviously something else..... like something I've disturbed, or one of those AOG things.

We'll pull the tank and 'cess it out.
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Offline Eddie-FL

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Re: Stick Coils and Audiovox Cruise Issue - I think
« Reply #3 on: June 24, 2019, 06:53:27 pm »
Guy, another vote for no issues when I did the stick coil upgrade with the CC installed. Like you suspect, something else is going on. Good luck with the diagnosis!
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Offline BDF

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Re: Stick Coils and Audiovox Cruise Issue - I think
« Reply #4 on: June 24, 2019, 07:14:29 pm »
Not sure how you set the coils up on a C-10 but stick coils are usually triggered by a simple 12 volt pulse, usually directly from the ECU. Because of this, there is additional trigger circuitry in a stick coil to prevent the approx. 300 volt collapse spike from being send back down the trigger wire. The older style of coils have no trigger circuitry (usually) and so have that high voltage spike. That high voltage spike is what the Audiovox is looking for on the spark plug 'wire' and stick coils do not generate it.

The Audiovox is kinda' finicky to set up for input sensing though and I <believe> it has settings to vary the input it is set to respond to; I know the Rostra CC (from the same company) does.

On the C-14, most of us seem to be using the vehicle speed sensor (VSS) to have the CC sense the speed of the vehicle, and that is a 0 to 5 VDC signal (square wave). But the Rostra also uses two different pickup points depending on which type of sensor you will be using. My thought would be to grab the instructions from the Audiovox and see if they help in the input type.

Of course others have set up the original Audiovox on a C-14 so clearly that high voltage inductive spike is not needed to use the unit, I just do not know enough about the original Audiovox to make reasonable suggestions.

Best of luck with it.

Brian

Has anyone who has installed stick coils on their C10 have any issues with their Audiovox cruise control not engaging properly? Worked fine the day before, but after installing the stick coils yesterday, it now engages, but immediately kicks right back out. Had to do the brake light relay thing several months ago when I installed rear LED lights, so that’s taken care of.

In no big rush to pull the tank again, but would like to get it sorted out as quickly as I can. Other than this little gotcha, the bike runs fine with the new stick coils.

??????????
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Offline MAN OF BLUES

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Re: Stick Coils and Audiovox Cruise Issue - I think
« Reply #5 on: June 24, 2019, 07:42:58 pm »
as the Audiovox is a vacuum controlled component, I'm thinking you have a bad line/fitting somewhere leaking on ya... besides the C10 having an analog/cable spun speedo input...  :truce: :rotflmao:

I know your A/V unit is like 20 years old by now... maybe the canister check valve gave out finally...
Gary has new can's for $20...
https://www.murphskits.com/product_info.php?cPath=1_90&products_id=222&osCsid=Q8GAK-Ae6GLdiOMr-2sv1

Not having experiences with the stick coils on C10, you may have to "switch" modes via the "dip switches", to get your signal from the tach, instead of coil..
all splained, somewhat, if you decode it... here..

https://www.murphskits.com/docs/audiovox/index.htm


« Last Edit: June 24, 2019, 07:54:34 pm by MAN OF BLUES »

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Re: Stick Coils and Audiovox Cruise Issue - I think
« Reply #6 on: June 25, 2019, 11:11:21 am »
as the Audiovox is a vacuum controlled component, I'm thinking you have a bad line/fitting somewhere leaking on ya... besides the C10 having an analog/cable spun speedo input...  :truce: :rotflmao:

I know your A/V unit is like 20 years old by now... maybe the canister check valve gave out finally...
Gary has new can's for $20...
https://www.murphskits.com/product_info.php?cPath=1_90&products_id=222&osCsid=Q8GAK-Ae6GLdiOMr-2sv1

Not having experiences with the stick coils on C10, you may have to "switch" modes via the "dip switches", to get your signal from the tach, instead of coil..
all splained, somewhat, if you decode it... here..

https://www.murphskits.com/docs/audiovox/index.htm

Uh, the signal to the (#1 & #4) coil from the igniter is the tach input. That's where the AV unit gets its "speed" signal. No mode switching necessary.
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Offline Victor Salisbury

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Re: Stick Coils and Audiovox Cruise Issue - I think
« Reply #7 on: June 25, 2019, 12:00:13 pm »
3rd vote for no problem with stick coils and the Audiovox, had the cruise on with the stock coils, later converted to the stick coils and no issues. :D
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Re: Stick Coils and Audiovox Cruise Issue - I think
« Reply #8 on: June 25, 2019, 02:32:55 pm »
3rd vote for no problem with stick coils and the Audiovox, had the cruise on with the stock coils, later converted to the stick coils and no issues. :D

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Re: Stick Coils and Audiovox Cruise Issue - I think
« Reply #9 on: June 25, 2019, 02:40:46 pm »
OK, it looks like the Audiovox only has one 'speed' input line but DIP switch #7 switches the input mode. When sw. #7 is ON, it is set to 'Tach source = coil', which is what you would use for a normal coil line pick-up (there is a snubber circuit in the Audiovox that this engages, apparently). Setting sw. #7 to OFF should bypass the filter and allow it to work with low voltage signals. My suggestion would be to try setting switch #7 to OFF and see if the unit will engage.

Brian
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Re: Stick Coils and Audiovox Cruise Issue - I think
« Reply #10 on: June 25, 2019, 05:08:08 pm »
OK, it looks like the Audiovox only has one 'speed' input line but DIP switch #7 switches the input mode. When sw. #7 is ON, it is set to 'Tach source = coil', which is what you would use for a normal coil line pick-up (there is a snubber circuit in the Audiovox that this engages, apparently). Setting sw. #7 to OFF should bypass the filter and allow it to work with low voltage signals. My suggestion would be to try setting switch #7 to OFF and see if the unit will engage.

Brian

Thanks Brian - and perfect timing. I was just going through the DIP switch setting when you sent that. I had changed the sensitivity a couple of times to alter the response when I was pulling a trailer. Everything had been set back to NORMAL previously, so no joy there. In addition to going over all my connections (which were good), and checking to make sure all my grounds were good where I removed the LH coil, I also changed the DIP Sw #7 position and gave it a try. Still no joy. And finally, also checked all the vacuum lines, canister check valve, and all that other related vacuum stuff. All of that was good.

As far as I know, this COP system was a T-Cro creation that was given to me by a fella after a tree came down and crushed his shed AND his bike that was inside. He had an AV system on his bike too, but not sure if he had any issues with it, or not.

We'll go back and set the DIP #7 switch back to what it was, and also alter some of the other response time settings to see if that makes any difference.............  but not today. Too freakin' hot to keep suiting up for a disappointing test ride.

I do have another set of sticks that I bought separately that I can try. I was ready to roll my own when this fella gave me his.

Thank you again, and we'll let you know what we eventually find.

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Offline BDF

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Re: Stick Coils and Audiovox Cruise Issue - I think
« Reply #11 on: June 25, 2019, 07:44:37 pm »
Happy to help if I can Guy.

Most of my CC retrofit experience is with a Rostra rather than an Audiovox but because they are made by the same company (Rostra is the company), they share similar qualities and...... er, quirks. One of those quirks is that they can be touchy regarding sensing an input reliably, or even at all. Plus the fact that they are really a pretty old design and generally do not play all that well with modern vehicles, which is why vehicles with LED tail lights will not trigger them to unlatch.

Again, I do not have and have not found the Audiovox instructions but my suggestion would be to find out if they can use the magnet and pickup setup for the front wheel as the Rostra can. This will assure you that it will trigger properly with very small voltage signals. For example, the Rostra will read the VSS just fine and that is basically a 0 to 2.5 VDC signal but it has to be configured to do that.

Just my opinion and of course it may well be wrong but if the Audiovox was working and the only thing you did was to install stick coils on the bike, I seriously doubt it is anything like a vacuum problem- too much of a coincidence. Besides, a vacuum problem of any kind will not prevent the system from going into electronic 'engage' mode; what should happen in a case of a vacuum problem is that the electronics will latch and provide control but the vacuum side cannot actually move the throttle. That is also why I always recommend folks use an 'engaged' light on a Rostra because it makes troubleshooting the system much, much easier.

Not sure if I or anyone else mentioned this but as there have been Audiovox installs on C-14's, it might be worth a few minutes of poking around the 'net to see how one of those installations is set up; whatever works on C-14 stick coils should work on stick coils on any vehicle.

Brian


Thanks Brian - and perfect timing. I was just going through the DIP switch setting when you sent that. I had changed the sensitivity a couple of times to alter the response when I was pulling a trailer. Everything had been set back to NORMAL previously, so no joy there. In addition to going over all my connections (which were good), and checking to make sure all my grounds were good where I removed the LH coil, I also changed the DIP Sw #7 position and gave it a try. Still no joy. And finally, also checked all the vacuum lines, canister check valve, and all that other related vacuum stuff. All of that was good.

As far as I know, this COP system was a T-Cro creation that was given to me by a fella after a tree came down and crushed his shed AND his bike that was inside. He had an AV system on his bike too, but not sure if he had any issues with it, or not.

We'll go back and set the DIP #7 switch back to what it was, and also alter some of the other response time settings to see if that makes any difference.............  but not today. Too freakin' hot to keep suiting up for a disappointing test ride.

I do have another set of sticks that I bought separately that I can try. I was ready to roll my own when this fella gave me his.

Thank you again, and we'll let you know what we eventually find.
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Re: Stick Coils and Audiovox Cruise Issue - I think
« Reply #12 on: June 25, 2019, 10:54:50 pm »
Happy to help if I can Guy.

Most of my CC retrofit experience is with a Rostra rather than an Audiovox but because they are made by the same company (Rostra is the company), they share similar qualities and...... er, quirks. One of those quirks is that they can be touchy regarding sensing an input reliably, or even at all. Plus the fact that they are really a pretty old design and generally do not play all that well with modern vehicles, which is why vehicles with LED tail lights will not trigger them to unlatch.

Again, I do not have and have not found the Audiovox instructions but my suggestion would be to find out if they can use the magnet and pickup setup for the front wheel as the Rostra can. This will assure you that it will trigger properly with very small voltage signals. For example, the Rostra will read the VSS just fine and that is basically a 0 to 2.5 VDC signal but it has to be configured to do that.

Just my opinion and of course it may well be wrong but if the Audiovox was working and the only thing you did was to install stick coils on the bike, I seriously doubt it is anything like a vacuum problem- too much of a coincidence. Besides, a vacuum problem of any kind will not prevent the system from going into electronic 'engage' mode; what should happen in a case of a vacuum problem is that the electronics will latch and provide control but the vacuum side cannot actually move the throttle. That is also why I always recommend folks use an 'engaged' light on a Rostra because it makes troubleshooting the system much, much easier.

Not sure if I or anyone else mentioned this but as there have been Audiovox installs on C-14's, it might be worth a few minutes of poking around the 'net to see how one of those installations is set up; whatever works on C-14 stick coils should work on stick coils on any vehicle.

Brian


Thanks Brian - and perfect timing. I was just going through the DIP switch setting when you sent that. I had changed the sensitivity a couple of times to alter the response when I was pulling a trailer. Everything had been set back to NORMAL previously, so no joy there. In addition to going over all my connections (which were good), and checking to make sure all my grounds were good where I removed the LH coil, I also changed the DIP Sw #7 position and gave it a try. Still no joy. And finally, also checked all the vacuum lines, canister check valve, and all that other related vacuum stuff. All of that was good.

As far as I know, this COP system was a T-Cro creation that was given to me by a fella after a tree came down and crushed his shed AND his bike that was inside. He had an AV system on his bike too, but not sure if he had any issues with it, or not.

We'll go back and set the DIP #7 switch back to what it was, and also alter some of the other response time settings to see if that makes any difference.............  but not today. Too freakin' hot to keep suiting up for a disappointing test ride.

I do have another set of sticks that I bought separately that I can try. I was ready to roll my own when this fella gave me his.

Thank you again, and we'll let you know what we eventually find.

Brian,

I have the instructions, but also recall that they can use a mag p/u. A magnet was supplied with the kit when I got it a very long time ago. Can't remember from whom, but it mighta been JC Whimpy. Whomever it was, they were on sale for a really good price.

I have all that extra stuff - somewhere - but it was before I built the garage so it's probably buried in my shed.

One thing I have noticed it that the later models have a "noise suppressor" in the blue trigger wire you run from the coil's terminal from the igniter. Mine does not have that, nor is it mentioned in the instructions. Looks to be nothing more than a 20K 1W resistor. Where is Hades is a Radio Shack when your need one? Probably not going to help, but went ahead and ordered one from Mouser Electronics to try. While I'm waiting, I may pull the 1 & 4 stick coils out and put the regular LH coil back on. It's the side that triggers the CC.

I also need to measure the total resistance of the two coils in a string. I assume T-Cro connected them in series. Most stick coils have an individual resistance that would be too low for our igniter to handle if connected in parallel. Connected in series, the resistance comes out about the same as our OEM coil's primary resistance.

Lots to look at when trying to T/S a mysterious ailment that pops up outta nowhere.

I knew it wasn't a vacuum issue. Shoot, mine runs fine without the canister on flat, level ground. Only needs help on long inclines and hills.

We'll forge ahead: onward and upward..............
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Offline Rev Ryder

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Re: Stick Coils and Audiovox Cruise Issue - I think
« Reply #13 on: June 26, 2019, 04:48:13 am »
Not sure how you set the coils up on a C-10 but stick coils are usually triggered by a simple 12 volt pulse, usually directly from the ECU. Because of this, there is additional trigger circuitry in a stick coil to prevent the approx. 300 volt collapse spike from being send back down the trigger wire. The older style of coils have no trigger circuitry (usually) and so have that high voltage spike. That high voltage spike is what the Audiovox is looking for on the spark plug 'wire' and stick coils do not generate it.

The Audiovox is kinda' finicky to set up for input sensing though and I <believe> it has settings to vary the input it is set to respond to; I know the Rostra CC (from the same company) does.

On the C-14, most of us seem to be using the vehicle speed sensor (VSS) to have the CC sense the speed of the vehicle, and that is a 0 to 5 VDC signal (square wave). But the Rostra also uses two different pickup points depending on which type of sensor you will be using. My thought would be to grab the instructions from the Audiovox and see if they help in the input type.

Of course others have set up the original Audiovox on a C-14 so clearly that high voltage inductive spike is not needed to use the unit, I just do not know enough about the original Audiovox to make reasonable suggestions.

Best of luck with it.

Brian

Has anyone who has installed stick coils on their C10 have any issues with their Audiovox cruise control not engaging properly? Worked fine the day before, but after installing the stick coils yesterday, it now engages, but immediately kicks right back out. Had to do the brake light relay thing several months ago when I installed rear LED lights, so that’s taken care of.

In no big rush to pull the tank again, but would like to get it sorted out as quickly as I can. Other than this little gotcha, the bike runs fine with the new stick coils.

??????????
Well, not an apples to apples thing, but what BDF says is true.  With stick coils on a C-10 (unlike stick coils on a C-14) they are wired in series rather than parallel.  And they do not produce the fly back signal the Audiovox is looking for.  In my case it was trying to use the flyback signal to trigger a Microsquirt for EFI that I had the same issues with.  The bike would start and run fine on the stock or Dyna coils, but wouldn't get a tach signal (ignition flyback trigger) with the stick coils which need to be wired in series to provide the approx 3 ohm minimum resistance required by the stock igniter. (Stick coils are roughly 1.0 to 1.7 ohms each)  Forgive me, this was circa 2008 so memory is a little fuzzy, but we were never able to make it work.  I had determined that sticks wired in series cuts the supply voltage to the coils in half so they are functioning on 6-7 volts instead of the 12-14v that they receive on the bikes they were designed for. Or perhaps the flyback was cancelled by the second coil in much the same way a humbucker pickup (dual coils a la Les Paul) on an electric guitar does compared to a single coil pickup (a la Stratocaster). As far as anti- flyback circuitry in the coils... IDK.  Maybe so.  But they do work in other situations where they are not wired in series (not to mention the voltage is higher).  Just saying that this was my observation over the years. 

But, since others here are claiming they work fine with the Audiovox CC, apparently I am mistaken or overlooking something as well.  Perhaps it culd be a dipswitch setting since the bike's TACH circuitry still works (and it is the same principal I believe)  :hum:   
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Re: Stick Coils and Audiovox Cruise Issue - I think
« Reply #14 on: June 26, 2019, 11:40:16 am »
Thanks Rev. That was me that mentioned the series connection.

FWIW – The fella that gave me the stick coil set never got a chance to use them in conjunction with his Audiovox cruise system. He told me that the wire loop around cable end on the throttle plate on his bike broke. After replacing the loop, he never got his cruise working again, so he removed it. This was well before he got the coils from T-Cro, so the two were never on his bike at the same time. Then the falling tree crushed his bike, and that was the end of that.

From what I was told, T-Cro secured coils from wherever he could when putting the kits together. I do have another set that I bought separately, so the easiest thing for me to do at this juncture is to just try them. Others have had no issues, so my getting a set that might not have worked from the git-go is a crap shoot. The down side of that is that my AV unit may be old to the point that none of them will work. Kinda the same deal is that I never needed the added brake light relay that forced a hard ground on the purple lead, while others did. I only had to add the relay in after I put in the LED tail light bulbs. Something in their circuitry changed, either intentionally, or through a component out-of-tolerance stack up.

Who knows. We’ll eventually sort it out - or not.
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Re: Stick Coils and Audiovox Cruise Issue - I think
« Reply #15 on: June 29, 2019, 04:27:38 pm »
FINALLY – got the AV Cruise Control Working again…….  but not with the stick coils; I pulled them out.

I haven’t given up on them yet, but just postponed doing any more trouble shooting right now. The original series harness looks good, but there was a slight difference (½ ohm) in the resistance readings between the 1 & 4 string, and the 2 & 3 string. Out on the bench things kind of evened out, however there was almost a 1 ohm difference between the T-Cro set of coils my friend gave me, and the ones I picked up separately…..  even tho’ they were both Denso coils and the first 5(?) digits in the part numbers were the same. The last 4(?) digits were different.

My 20K “noise suppressor” resistor came in yesterday, but I didn’t try it, nor did I try swapping out the coils. Presently, it’s 97 deg. here in the shade and I had no desire to keep suiting up and working over a hot bike to pull the tank, make the change, put it back together, and repeat the process as many times as necessary to come to a final conclusion – good or bad.

EDIT: I didn't say it, but it was probably pretty obvious that I stuck my OEM coils back on the bike. Found a little issue with the RH one (See pix below). I had no idea there was an issue with it since the bike was running good when I pulled them out. Fortunately, I had a couple others so I swapped it out. FWIW - the Red electrical tape on the coil is there to remind me it was the Right hand one when I pulled them off valve adjustment, coolant hose replacement, etc.

Bike is running good right now and ready for the National and it’s final state inspection Tuesday at a place I’ve been going for years. The dealership is for sale, and unless they find a buyer in the next couple of months, they’ll be closing the doors. It’s a 20+ mile ride for me + a $9.00 toll if I go the short way, but worth the trip because I like the folks who own the place.




« Last Edit: June 29, 2019, 11:37:50 pm by connieklr »
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