Author Topic: Stymied by the starter  (Read 1025 times)

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Offline MAN OF BLUES

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Re: Stymied by the starter
« Reply #25 on: September 27, 2017, 10:40:34 pm »
continued


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Offline Big D

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Re: Stymied by the starter
« Reply #26 on: September 28, 2017, 12:52:00 am »
So after all the input from everyone, I'm thinking I will be hunting down an 86 model harness.  I didn't really know all the nuances and differences in the harness when I purchased it and I guess I'm finding out the hard way lol.  I appreciate everyone's feedback and since I'm not an electrical engineer, I think I'll start over with the correct harness.  I was thinking that a new year harness would be better but that's what I get for thinking... lol  :o 

Now the question is can I use a guage cluster from post 94 with a pre-94 harness?  If not it's not that big a deal but I've already converted the entire front end to post-94 (cluster, upper cowl, cowl bracket, etc...)  I picked up a 95 Connie parts bike with no title and if I can't proceed with my original plan, maybe I'll just attempt to get 2 Connies on the road...  The adventure continues.

Thanks again everyone.

Offline MAN OF BLUES

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Re: Stymied by the starter
« Reply #27 on: September 28, 2017, 01:55:37 am »
 :-[ :-X :truce:

I'm done.
Every new unexplained and planned variable is now becoming to much for me to sit and comment on.
Best of luck.

30 YEARS OF KAW.....Rich R. (the other one..)  COG 5977  JUSTAMEMBAHNOW

Offline Big D

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Re: Stymied by the starter
« Reply #28 on: September 28, 2017, 02:08:24 am »
:-[ :-X :truce:

I'm done.
Every new unexplained and planned variable is now becoming to much for me to sit and comment on.
Best of luck.

As I said, I appreciate the input, ideas, and suggestions.

Thanks again.

Offline connie_rider

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Re: Stymied by the starter
« Reply #29 on: September 28, 2017, 02:11:58 am »
I didn't know you had installed post 94 instruments etc...
With that in mind, {before you install pre 94 harness} I'm thinking it might be best to troubleshoot the wiring you have now and try to find the problem.

The starter switch to starter relay circuit shouldn't be that difficult to track...

If the charging system works after you find the starter problem, it might all work out??

Maybe someone has done this, will know the difference, and can point it out...

Ride safe, Ted
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Offline Big D

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Re: Stymied by the starter
« Reply #30 on: September 28, 2017, 03:17:13 am »
@Connie Rider   Yeah, after I installed the harness I couldn't get anything to work at the controls so I replaced the left and right controls with post-94 units.  Additionally I found that it was easier to find reasonably priced parts such as covers, cowls, gauges, brackets, etc... for the post-94 models so I thought I would just upgrade the bike to post-94.  I guess I didn't think it through thoroughly enough.  In case, I am going to test a few more things but most likely will go back to the stock 86 configuration.  That seems easier at this point then trying to chase the electrical connections and root out the gremlins.  Steve said it was difficult and from everything I've read and seen, I'll treat his words as gospel...

Again, I truly appreciate all of the feedback and constructive criticism.  :great:

Offline MAN OF BLUES

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Re: Stymied by the starter
« Reply #31 on: September 28, 2017, 05:47:54 am »
@Connie Rider   Yeah, after I installed the harness I couldn't get anything to work at the controls so I replaced the left and right controls with post-94 units.  Additionally I found that it was easier to find reasonably priced parts such as covers, cowls, gauges, brackets, etc... for the post-94 models so I thought I would just upgrade the bike to post-94.  I guess I didn't think it through thoroughly enough.  In case, I am going to test a few more things but most likely will go back to the stock 86 configuration.  That seems easier at this point then trying to chase the electrical connections and root out the gremlins.  Steve said it was difficult and from everything I've read and seen, I'll treat his words as gospel...

Again, I truly appreciate all of the feedback and constructive criticism.  :great:

Ok, so now what you are saying is everything on the bike that is a control, or switch, along with the harness, is all post 94 parts....?  The only part that carries power that isn't a post 94 part is the actual key switch?

Now I'm baffled. :truce:
Go back and recheck the fuses, and when you pull them, check volts in each fuse holder with a voltmeter, and the ignition key switch on. With attention to the main fuse.
If there are no volts across the 30amp main fuse connection sockets... its ignition switch.

I guess I totally missed the part about you upgraded everything to post 94.... sorry...

Changing out all these parts, this far into it is a point of a lot of questioning since the original posting of "I installed a 2000 wire harness on my 86".....
« Last Edit: September 28, 2017, 05:53:40 am by MAN OF BLUES »

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Offline Big D

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Re: Stymied by the starter
« Reply #32 on: September 28, 2017, 06:19:10 am »
@MOB  Sorry, I thought I had mentioned in my original post that I had replaced the controls to match the harness, i.e. corresponding year range.  I'm guessing I wasn't as clear as I thought I was in my head...  :-[   So yes, the only thing left on the bike that is pre-94 is the ignition switch and J-box.  I will take your advice and check the fuses one at time.  If it comes down to the ignition switch being the problem, I think I will just start over with a pre-94 harness and corresponding controls.  I'm cheap so I held out for bargains on e-Bay so I don't have more than $150 in the post-94 parts.

Offline connie_rider

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Re: Stymied by the starter
« Reply #33 on: September 28, 2017, 03:25:27 pm »
I agree with MOB, but we need 1 thing done first.

I'm simple minded careful, and I do things in steps...
Step #1; As we've said several times, check the voltage "at" the starter relay.
               When you push the starter button, do you get voltage from the switch to there?
                {We've asked and you have not answered this question.}

You need to confirm this first, because; if you "do" have voltage "to there" it indicates a completely different problem.

If {as we assume} you have no voltage, definitely check voltage at fuses as MOB sed.

NOTE: The new info {installed post 94 components} changes a lot.
          This could be as simple as a incorrect ignition switch, or a bad side stand switch.

Last question. Give us more info so we can help you.
                     What electrical components are still original?
                     List everything you have/haven't changed.

Ride safe, Ted

PS: Never say your Cheap.
        COGgers are not Cheap.
             We are "Frugal"...   :great:
« Last Edit: September 28, 2017, 03:30:19 pm by connie_rider »
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Offline Big D

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Re: Stymied by the starter
« Reply #34 on: September 29, 2017, 12:56:03 am »
@Connie Rider   Yes, Frugal it is...  :great:   Thank you for the advice and my plan is to dig into this weekend.  I haven't had much time this week due to work.  Right now the only pre-94 electrical components left on the bike are the ignition switch, the J-box, and the ignition coils/wires.

Thanks again.
D

Offline Big D

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Re: Stymied by the starter
« Reply #35 on: October 02, 2017, 01:23:24 pm »
@Connie Rider  So I finally had the time to check the voltage this weekend. With the pre-94 J-box installed, I have voltage going through the J-box box (pulled the 30A fuse and tested) and all the lights, horn, etc... work with the fuses installed. When I tested the starter relay connection I don't get any voltage when the starter button is pressed. I'm guessing the problem is with the switch?

Offline Mettler1

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Re: Stymied by the starter
« Reply #36 on: October 02, 2017, 02:34:43 pm »
    Could be dirty contacts in the starter switch. Was able to clean the contacts with emery paper but you REALLY have to be careful of the little springs and things cause  if you lose them they go to a different dimension never to be seen again. >:(
'94 Concours 115,000 miles-- 7th gear,2MM,KB fork brace,Over flowtubes,Stick coils,Tcro shifter,GPS,SiSF'sTorque cams,SPOOKFAK,block off plates, SS brake & clutch lines,KB risers, FENDA EXTENDA, emulators, SiSF carb Spa, Delkevic exhaust, Murphs' knee savers +grips, etc

Offline Jim

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Re: Stymied by the starter
« Reply #37 on: October 02, 2017, 02:48:41 pm »
The starter button gets it's voltage from the Engine Stop switch.  Check for voltage there first.

Offline Big D

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Re: Stymied by the starter
« Reply #38 on: October 02, 2017, 03:09:46 pm »
@Jim  The engine stop switch is good. I have voltage at the switch in the "run" position and no power in the "off" position. I also tested the starter button switch for voltage. I have voltage at the black wire (source) and then voltage at both wires when I press the start button. So the switch is good. So relay is no good?
« Last Edit: October 02, 2017, 03:16:26 pm by Big D »

Offline Jim

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Re: Stymied by the starter
« Reply #39 on: October 02, 2017, 04:02:22 pm »
Couple things to check.
Do you have voltage on the Yel/Red wire on the external starter relay when you hit the start button?  Can you hear a click?
If no voltage there, check for voltage on purple (or is it black) wire going into the J-Box when the start button is pressed.

BTW, is your bike in neutral and the green neutral light is on?  There are 2 other circuits which will prevent your starter from working.
« Last Edit: October 02, 2017, 04:07:11 pm by Jim »

Offline Big D

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Re: Stymied by the starter
« Reply #40 on: October 02, 2017, 04:15:00 pm »
@Jim  I don't have voltage at the Yel/Red wire going into the starter relay and I don't know why or how since the same Yel/Red wire has voltage at the "Run/Off" switch. Additionally, there is no click, the bike is in neutral with the green neutral light illuminated and pulling the clutch lever makes no difference as well.

Offline Jim

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Re: Stymied by the starter
« Reply #41 on: October 02, 2017, 04:21:12 pm »
I know it's been mentioned before, but please confirm:  Your handle bar controls and wire harness are from a 1994 or newer bike.  Correct?

Offline Big D

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Re: Stymied by the starter
« Reply #42 on: October 02, 2017, 04:32:06 pm »
Yes, all the handlebar controls and wire harnesses are post-94. Right now the only pre-94 components left are the J-box and ignition switch.

Offline Jim

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Re: Stymied by the starter
« Reply #43 on: October 02, 2017, 04:45:37 pm »
Ok.  You've got power on both sides of the engine kill switch and both sides of the starter switch when pressed.  Go to the J-Box.  The big connector will have a Black wire at one end of the connector.  This wire comes from the starter switch.  With the connector still attached to the j-box, measure the voltage at this pin when you press the start button.

Offline Big D

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Re: Stymied by the starter
« Reply #44 on: October 03, 2017, 06:17:27 pm »
I have voltage at the black wire when I press the starter button. It looks to be about 12-14 volts but I'm not sure I'm reading my volt meter correctly.

Offline connie_rider

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Re: Stymied by the starter
« Reply #45 on: October 03, 2017, 07:01:43 pm »
Big D, for clarification;
   the black wire {that has power} is at the Starter switch?
   you do NOT have voltage (yellow/red wire} "at" the starter relay?
   you DO have voltage (Yel/Red wire)at the "Run/Off" switch.

If so, the problem is between the Starter switch and the starter relay.

Track the voltage between the 2 locations
, and the circuits that can stop that voltage.

Ride safe, Ted
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Offline Big D

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Re: Stymied by the starter
« Reply #46 on: October 03, 2017, 07:13:00 pm »
@Connie Rider  Yes to all of the clarification points. Thanks for the input and I'll see what I can track down.

Offline Jim

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Re: Stymied by the starter
« Reply #47 on: October 03, 2017, 07:25:25 pm »
Check the Yel/Red wire at the large connector at the j-box for voltage when you press the start button.  If there is no voltage, please try your other j-box.  Also, listen carefully for a "click" from the j-box when you press the starter button.  The starter button activates a relay in the j-box which supplies power to the external starter relay.  This will help narrow it down quickly.


Offline Big D

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Re: Stymied by the starter
« Reply #48 on: October 03, 2017, 07:29:55 pm »
@Connie Rider and Ted  I have no voltage at the Yel/Red wire at the J-box connector when I press the start button and there's no click.  If I'm reading the wiring diagrams correctly the issue is in the J-box. I plugged the post-94 J-box into the connectors and got no power whatsoever so it looks like I will be rebuilding the post-94 J-box.

Offline Jim

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Re: Stymied by the starter
« Reply #49 on: October 03, 2017, 07:37:56 pm »
If you want, there is one last thing to check.  I know you said the Neutral light is on.  The signal from the neutral switch goes to the light and the j-box.  Try pressing the start button with the clutch lever pull all the way in.  Also, the Green neutral switch wire has a crimped splice for the leads to the j-box and neutral switch (I had to repair a failed splice on my bike a couple of week ago).  Use an ohm meter to verify the light green wire in the large connector of the j-box has continuity to the light green wire at the neutral switch.  Or, verify the light green wire at the j-box is shorted to ground when the bike is in neutral.  If this checks out OK then it's probably the j-box.