Author Topic: Stymied by the starter  (Read 3386 times)

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Offline Big D

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Re: Stymied by the starter
« Reply #50 on: April 02, 2018, 01:40:17 pm »
So I'm revisiting this issue as it's still there. I took a break from this model ('86) to work on a different model. I recently went back to working on the '86 model. I sent the J-box out to Larry Buck and reverted back to all '86 model wiring including the main harness, all switches and controls. Opened up the starter switch and made the contacts all shiny and new. Still nothing. Neutral light is illuminated and there's no difference when I pull in the clutch and the side stand is up.

I'm ready to give up on this bike.
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Offline WillyP

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Re: Stymied by the starter
« Reply #51 on: April 02, 2018, 06:24:30 pm »
Use your volt meter or test light and go through each connection, one at a time. Verify you have power going through the clutch switch, kickstand switch etc... Just like you did for the starter button switch. Don't assume just because the switch is in the right position, it's working. Sometimes the kickstand switch sticks, clutch switch has also been known to fail.
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Offline MAN OF BLUES

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Re: Stymied by the starter
« Reply #52 on: April 02, 2018, 09:01:55 pm »
The sidestand switch actuator rod tends to get gummed up, and stick, this needs to be freed up to operate even with stand up...
Put it on the centerstand, and get down there with a can of WD40, and stick the red snooter tube up inside the actuator rod, from the end of the rubber boot... flush it good, then manually work that rod on the switch till it slides freely...

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Offline Hardhead

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Re: Stymied by the starter
« Reply #53 on: April 03, 2018, 12:38:36 pm »
So I'm revisiting this issue as it's still there. I took a break from this model ('86) to work on a different model. I recently went back to working on the '86 model. I sent the J-box out to Larry Buck and reverted back to all '86 model wiring including the main harness, all switches and controls. Opened up the starter switch and made the contacts all shiny and new. Still nothing. Neutral light is illuminated and there's no difference when I pull in the clutch and the side stand is up.

I'm ready to give up on this bike.

Big D if it were me I would take a wire from the + side of the battery and jump it to the post that activate the relay to see if it is working right. this will bypass everything and should turn the starter over. If this works you could run a new hot wire from the starter switch to the relay. This should allow you to use the bike while you look for the problem you are having. HTH   

Offline mgoodrich

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Re: Stymied by the starter
« Reply #54 on: April 03, 2018, 03:26:55 pm »
Well, I'll ask this.  You don't happen to have your kill switch off by chance?

Offline Big D

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Re: Stymied by the starter
« Reply #55 on: April 03, 2018, 07:27:19 pm »
Well, I'll ask this.  You don't happen to have your kill switch off by chance?

Well that would be funny and I wish it were that simple but no.

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Offline MAN OF BLUES

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Re: Stymied by the starter
« Reply #56 on: April 03, 2018, 07:33:52 pm »
The sidestand switch actuator rod tends to get gummed up, and stick, this needs to be freed up to operate even with stand up...
Put it on the centerstand, and get down there with a can of WD40, and stick the red snooter tube up inside the actuator rod, from the end of the rubber boot... flush it good, then manually work that rod on the switch till it slides freely...

Please, check what I wrote, and report back, I've seen this issue dozens of times...

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Offline JPD

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Re: Stymied by the starter
« Reply #57 on: April 04, 2018, 03:07:19 am »
Step back and as has been sugested before. Start at the battery and test for voltage at every connection in the wiring diaghram. Both sides of every switch, splice or relay. There will be a point where the voltage stops. If it is at a relay, test all connections in that control curcuit. The problem has to be an open wire or bad switch/ relay

Offline Redbarron

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Re: Stymied by the starter
« Reply #58 on: April 04, 2018, 02:51:27 pm »
Hello Big D:

When you get your junction box back from Larry it should come with a j box diagram.

If you really get stuck pm me and I'll walk you through it step by step.

Sounds like your about to get a crash course in electrical diagnostics 101!!

Good Luck
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Offline Big D

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Re: Stymied by the starter
« Reply #59 on: April 04, 2018, 07:40:04 pm »
Here's what I've got so far. Good voltage at the battery, starter engages when short the connections, and voltage to all of the wires in the starter switch including when the starter button is pressed so I know the switch is making good contact. Did MOB's trick and took it a step further bypassing the switch with a wire and there's voltage but the starter switch still doesn't work with the side stand switch bypassed. Then I tested the small relay connector (2 wires, Y/R and B/Y) and no voltage at any time. Is that normal and if not, what does it indicate? If it's not that, what else am I missing?
« Last Edit: April 04, 2018, 07:47:35 pm by Big D »
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Offline Hardhead

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Re: Stymied by the starter
« Reply #60 on: April 04, 2018, 10:08:27 pm »
Here's what I've got so far. Good voltage at the battery, starter engages when short the connections, and voltage to all of the wires in the starter switch including when the starter button is pressed so I know the switch is making good contact. Did MOB's trick and took it a step further bypassing the switch with a wire and there's voltage but the starter switch still doesn't work with the side stand switch bypassed. Then I tested the small relay connector (2 wires, Y/R and B/Y) and no voltage at any time. Is that normal and if not, what does it indicate? If it's not that, what else am I missing?

((2 wires, Y/R and B/Y) and no voltage at any time) there is your problem.... Can you call me 8704203244

Offline Big D

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Re: Stymied by the starter
« Reply #61 on: April 04, 2018, 11:40:04 pm »
Here's what I've got so far. Good voltage at the battery, starter engages when short the connections, and voltage to all of the wires in the starter switch including when the starter button is pressed so I know the switch is making good contact. Did MOB's trick and took it a step further bypassing the switch with a wire and there's voltage but the starter switch still doesn't work with the side stand switch bypassed. Then I tested the small relay connector (2 wires, Y/R and B/Y) and no voltage at any time. Is that normal and if not, what does it indicate? If it's not that, what else am I missing?

((2 wires, Y/R and B/Y) and no voltage at any time) there is your problem.... Can you call me 8704203244

Unfortunately I'm at work and can't call but can text and PM
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Offline Hardhead

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Re: Stymied by the starter
« Reply #62 on: April 05, 2018, 11:21:26 am »
Here's what I've got so far. Good voltage at the battery, starter engages when short the connections, and voltage to all of the wires in the starter switch including when the starter button is pressed so I know the switch is making good contact. Did MOB's trick and took it a step further bypassing the switch with a wire and there's voltage but the starter switch still doesn't work with the side stand switch bypassed. Then I tested the small relay connector (2 wires, Y/R and B/Y) and no voltage at any time. Is that normal and if not, what does it indicate? If it's not that, what else am I missing?

((2 wires, Y/R and B/Y) and no voltage at any time) there is your problem.... Can you call me 8704203244

Unfortunately I'm at work and can't call but can text and PM

I think I can help you if you will give me a call...

Offline connie_rider

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Re: Stymied by the starter
« Reply #63 on: April 05, 2018, 01:32:15 pm »
I'm beginning to think it's a neutral switch problem.

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Offline fordman

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Re: Stymied by the starter
« Reply #64 on: April 05, 2018, 03:48:30 pm »
hi  I had  the same problem with 86 when I bought a newer key  switch off e bay. look at the wires on back of switch . I had to jump two wires been fine after that  just my two cents      love this fourm     dave

Offline Big D

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Re: Stymied by the starter
« Reply #65 on: April 05, 2018, 08:17:13 pm »
hi  I had  the same problem with 86 when I bought a newer key  switch off e bay. look at the wires on back of switch . I had to jump two wires been fine after that  just my two cents      love this fourm     dave

I believe the switch is original but I'll check it out. What wires did you jump?
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Offline fordman

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Re: Stymied by the starter
« Reply #66 on: April 06, 2018, 12:24:45 pm »
hi   I cant recall the colors years have past. but check it out with your test light  that was my way of finding it . I think they changed the wiring in the newer years   good luck  dave

Offline WillyP

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Re: Stymied by the starter
« Reply #67 on: April 06, 2018, 03:52:34 pm »
The y/r goes directly to the relay from the junction box. If you have power on the y/r at the junction box when pressing the starter button, you have a broken connection in that wire or the connection to whatever you are testing with. If you don't have power there, you either have a bad junction box or the connection to the junction box is open.
« Last Edit: April 06, 2018, 04:09:18 pm by WillyP, Reason: jbox diagra »
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Offline Big D

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Re: Stymied by the starter
« Reply #68 on: April 06, 2018, 07:25:11 pm »
The y/r goes directly to the relay from the junction box. If you have power on the y/r at the junction box when pressing the starter button, you have a broken connection in that wire or the connection to whatever you are testing with. If you don't have power there, you either have a bad junction box or the connection to the junction box is open.

I don't have power at the Y/R wire at the junction box. I just don't get it because I just had Larry Buck refurbish the J-box. So what is the solution?
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Offline MAN OF BLUES

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Re: Stymied by the starter
« Reply #69 on: April 06, 2018, 07:38:47 pm »
The y/r goes directly to the relay from the junction box. If you have power on the y/r at the junction box when pressing the starter button, you have a broken connection in that wire or the connection to whatever you are testing with. If you don't have power there, you either have a bad junction box or the connection to the junction box is open.

I don't have power at the Y/R wire at the junction box. I just don't get it because I just had Larry Buck refurbish the J-box. So what is the solution?

That wire only has power when the starter button is pushed...

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Offline JPD

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Re: Stymied by the starter
« Reply #70 on: April 06, 2018, 07:46:19 pm »
Based on the wiring diagram provided by WillyP battery power comes in the relay box on pin #1 to the main fuse and out on pin 3. Next to the ignition switch then the cutout switch and start button. Then back into the relay box on pin 11 BK wire to the start relay. then out on pin 13 Y/R wire to the starter solenoid coil. The starter solenoid coil should go straight to ground
Check for power at the starter solenoid on the Y/R wire if you have power with the starter button pushed the problem is in the ground path If no power then it is in the 12v supply, or ground path for the starter relay in the box
Check for power at the cutoff and start switch, next the relay box at pin 11 and 13. This will check the ignition switch and both the cutout and start switch wiring to the relay box If you have power at pin 11 but not at pin 13 the problem can be the start relay in the box or no ground for the start relay coil on pin 12 of the relay box. The coil gets its ground from the clutch switch. The clutch switch has 2 paths to ground (1) clutch pulled in straight to ground (2) clutch out to the neutral switch in neutral to ground
The clutch, neutral and side stand switches can also turn off the ignition coils to prevent you from driving away with the side stand down.

Based on the last few posts I would suspect the starter relay control circuit.
Some one correct me if I am wrong or I missed something.

Offline MAN OF BLUES

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Re: Stymied by the starter
« Reply #71 on: April 06, 2018, 08:03:01 pm »
I'm beginning to think it's a neutral switch problem.

Ride safe, Ted

I forgot to mention, he did note he had a neutral light, which he would not have if that switch was at fault...

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Offline Big D

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Re: Stymied by the starter
« Reply #72 on: April 06, 2018, 08:21:19 pm »
The y/r goes directly to the relay from the junction box. If you have power on the y/r at the junction box when pressing the starter button, you have a broken connection in that wire or the connection to whatever you are testing with. If you don't have power there, you either have a bad junction box or the connection to the junction box is open.

I don't have power at the Y/R wire at the junction box. I just don't get it because I just had Larry Buck refurbish the J-box. So what is the solution?

That wire only has power when the starter button is pushed...

No power with starter button pressed.
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Offline Redbarron

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Re: Stymied by the starter
« Reply #73 on: April 06, 2018, 08:31:02 pm »
Hello Big D:

Using your multimeter check for voltage at the black wire + and the battery - post with key on while pressing the starter button.

That black wire should be hot coming out of the starter button going into the jbox.

I will see if I can get you picture of the starter and Jbox circuits if you need them.

to make things easier let's focus on the +side of the circuit first then if need be we can move to the - side safety interlocks.
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Offline Big D

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Re: Stymied by the starter
« Reply #74 on: April 06, 2018, 08:34:32 pm »
Based on the wiring diagram provided by WillyP battery power comes in the relay box on pin #1 to the main fuse and out on pin 3. Next to the ignition switch then the cutout switch and start button. Then back into the relay box on pin 11 BK wire to the start relay. then out on pin 13 Y/R wire to the starter solenoid coil. The starter solenoid coil should go straight to ground
Check for power at the starter solenoid on the Y/R wire if you have power with the starter button pushed the problem is in the ground path If no power then it is in the 12v supply, or ground path for the starter relay in the box
Check for power at the cutoff and start switch, next the relay box at pin 11 and 13. This will check the ignition switch and both the cutout and start switch wiring to the relay box If you have power at pin 11 but not at pin 13 the problem can be the start relay in the box or no ground for the start relay coil on pin 12 of the relay box. The coil gets its ground from the clutch switch. The clutch switch has 2 paths to ground (1) clutch pulled in straight to ground (2) clutch out to the neutral switch in neutral to ground
The clutch, neutral and side stand switches can also turn off the ignition coils to prevent you from driving away with the side stand down.

Based on the last few posts I would suspect the starter relay control circuit.
Some one correct me if I am wrong or I missed something.

Followed the wiring diagram and tested all of the pins associated with power for the starter system. Everything is good and where there is a switch or relay, there is power when the starter button is pressed. Until I get to the Y/R wire at the junction box. Nada. So is it the J-box (if I'm understanding the wiring diagram) or is it the starter solenoid ?
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