Author Topic: Stymied by the starter  (Read 3447 times)

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Offline MAN OF BLUES

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Re: Stymied by the starter
« Reply #75 on: April 06, 2018, 08:34:45 pm »
Here's what I've got so far. Good voltage at the battery, starter engages when short the connections, and voltage to all of the wires in the starter switch including when the starter button is pressed so I know the switch is making good contact. Did MOB's trick and took it a step further bypassing the switch with a wire and there's voltage but the starter switch still doesn't work with the side stand switch bypassed. Then I tested the small relay connector (2 wires, Y/R and B/Y) and no voltage at any time. Is that normal and if not, what does it indicate? If it's not that, what else am I missing?

Per the above highlight:
I have to consult Guy about this one, as I know he posted a "jumper" plugin made from a cutoff harness from a sidestand switch... and worked as a bypass when the switch was unplugged....
It had 3 wires, not 2, and I'm curious about it as his jumper had all 3 wires twisted together on it... I need to shoot him a note, he should be along shortly....

30 YEARS OF KAW.....Rich R. (the other one..)  COG 5977  JUSTAMEMBAHNOW

Offline Big D

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Re: Stymied by the starter
« Reply #76 on: April 06, 2018, 08:38:42 pm »
The y/r goes directly to the relay from the junction box. If you have power on the y/r at the junction box when pressing the starter button, you have a broken connection in that wire or the connection to whatever you are testing with. If you don't have power there, you either have a bad junction box or the connection to the junction box is open.

WillyP-- Thank you for the diagram

Offline MAN OF BLUES

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Re: Stymied by the starter
« Reply #77 on: April 06, 2018, 08:57:41 pm »
Per your explanation now, the only other thing in question is what that green wire on the sidestand switch actually does...(which I intend to find out), barring that isn't the issue, its right back to the actual starter relay in the Jbox which may be stuck internally, and not closing when energized...
Sometimes they go bad, and I've had brand new relays that didn't function, or only did so for a short time then failed, I can't say its Larry's fault, if he installed them, he expected them to work, but he didn't manufacture the relay...

I received 50 high priced ($70+) relays at my job a few years back, and found about 60% of them didn't function, so that stuff happens..

Hang tight tho till I get an answer from my pal Guy about his jumper harness...

30 YEARS OF KAW.....Rich R. (the other one..)  COG 5977  JUSTAMEMBAHNOW

Offline JPD

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Re: Stymied by the starter
« Reply #78 on: April 06, 2018, 09:13:25 pm »
Now check on the control side of the start relay in the j box. From the coil of the  relay to the clutch switch to ground clutch in or neutral switch clutch out. MOB said the neutral light was on so I would guess the clutch switch or a wire to it or ground. You had the j box rebuilt so I would not think that was the problem.

Offline MAN OF BLUES

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Re: Stymied by the starter
« Reply #79 on: April 06, 2018, 09:37:42 pm »
Guy just shot me a note, the green wire meant nothing.. I was curious as I thout there may have been an internal connection or resistor in that switch... but no.


His response was :
"The green wire went to a contact that wasn't used in the circuit; it connected to nothing beyond the switch. Rather than cut that lead, I just twisted the three of them together and crimped them in a butt splice connector. No magic."

Ok, now 2 final checks...
Both, key off, and connector unplugged from jbox...
First
Ohm reading between pin 11 &12 on jbox, should show resistance, if infinate, relay coil is not functioning to close relay when energized.
Second
Harness pin from Y/R wire, to ground... again, all unplugged key off... should also show resistance ohm value... if infinate, then its bad starter solenoid coil, even tho you did a "jump" on the starter, you didn't test the energizing coil that makes it work.

When you attempted jumping the starter, did the headlights "flash"? Just curious, as that may have affected the jbox relays during the jump, but I can't say for sure...




Carry on.. :great:
« Last Edit: April 06, 2018, 10:14:34 pm by MAN OF BLUES »

30 YEARS OF KAW.....Rich R. (the other one..)  COG 5977  JUSTAMEMBAHNOW

Offline JPD

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Re: Stymied by the starter
« Reply #80 on: April 06, 2018, 09:50:28 pm »
If you can see if you have 12v at pin 12 Y/G wire of the j box with the button pushed. If yes the coil of the start relay is good. then try to connect pin 12 to a good ground then try starter. That will bypass all of the wires and switches on the control circuit. Also check for 12v at pin 13 Y/R and the starter solenoid. If it works you can disconnect the clutch switch and jump the Y/G to both of the other wires in the connector to test that switch.

Offline Big D

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Re: Stymied by the starter
« Reply #81 on: April 06, 2018, 10:31:07 pm »
Guy just shot me a note, the green wire meant nothing.. I was curious as I thout there may have been an internal connection or resistor in that switch... but no.


His response was :
"The green wire went to a contact that wasn't used in the circuit; it connected to nothing beyond the switch. Rather than cut that lead, I just twisted the three of them together and crimped them in a butt splice connector. No magic."

Ok, now 2 final checks...
Both, key off, and connector unplugged from jbox...
First
Ohm reading between pin 11 &12 on jbox, should show resistance, if infinate, relay coil is not functioning to close relay when energized.
Second
Harness pin from Y/R wire, to ground... again, all unplugged key off... should also show resistance ohm value... if infinate, then its bad starter solenoid coil, even tho you did a "jump" on the starter, you didn't test the energizing coil that makes it work.

When you attempted jumping the starter, did the headlights "flash"? Just curious, as that may have affected the jbox relays during the jump, but I can't say for sure...




Carry on.. :great:

Thank you MOB. Looks like it's the starter solenoid coil. There is infinite resistance for both the 11 &12 pin on J-box and infinite resistance on Y/R harness pin.

Offline Big D

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Re: Stymied by the starter
« Reply #82 on: April 06, 2018, 10:38:04 pm »
If you can see if you have 12v at pin 12 Y/G wire of the j box with the button pushed. If yes the coil of the start relay is good. then try to connect pin 12 to a good ground then try starter. That will bypass all of the wires and switches on the control circuit. Also check for 12v at pin 13 Y/R and the starter solenoid. If it works you can disconnect the clutch switch and jump the Y/G to both of the other wires in the connector to test that switch.

Well that's interesting. I connected a wire to the Y/G wire and grounded it. Lo and behold, the magic sound of a humming starter when the button is pushed. Magic!

You guys are amazing. If it weren't for you guys you'd see an overgrown man crying...  :'(

Offline JPD

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Re: Stymied by the starter
« Reply #83 on: April 06, 2018, 10:47:06 pm »
Ok so now you know it is the clutch switch, neutral switch or wiring from the j box to them or to ground. My guess is it is the clutch switch. On one of my bikes it was worn and the bike would only start with the clutch out in neutral. I took it apart and sanded out the wear marks.

Offline Big D

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Re: Stymied by the starter
« Reply #84 on: April 06, 2018, 10:52:41 pm »
Ok so now you know it is the clutch switch, neutral switch or wiring from the j box to them or to ground. My guess is it is the clutch switch. On one of my bikes it was worn and the bike would only start with the clutch out in neutral. I took it apart and sanded out the wear marks.

So it's not the starter solenoid?

Offline JPD

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Re: Stymied by the starter
« Reply #85 on: April 06, 2018, 11:14:38 pm »
Not the solenoid. jumper the clutch first Y/G to one wire test then to the other wire and test. If it works in both conditions it is the clutch switch. If one fails it could be a ground wire or neutral switch, but that light works so not likely. With wiring you have to keep testing until you find something that is failed. A good dia. is a big help. Thanks to WillyP as mine was too hard to read the pin numbers.

Offline Hardhead

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Re: Stymied by the starter
« Reply #86 on: April 10, 2018, 10:51:51 am »
So I'm revisiting this issue as it's still there. I took a break from this model ('86) to work on a different model. I recently went back to working on the '86 model. I sent the J-box out to Larry Buck and reverted back to all '86 model wiring including the main harness, all switches and controls. Opened up the starter switch and made the contacts all shiny and new. Still nothing. Neutral light is illuminated and there's no difference when I pull in the clutch and the side stand is up.

I'm ready to give up on this bike.

Big D if it were me I would take a wire from the + side of the battery and jump it to the post that activate the relay to see if it is working right. this will bypass everything and should turn the starter over. If this works you could run a new hot wire from the starter switch to the relay. This should allow you to use the bike while you look for the problem you are having. HTH   


Big D if it were me I would take a wire from the + side of the battery and jump it to the post that activate the relay to see if it is working right. this will bypass everything and should turn the starter over. If this works you could run a new hot wire from the starter switch to the relay. This should allow you to use the bike while you look for the problem you are having. HTH    Relay #6 in your J-box could be bad. I might have an extra J-Box if I can find it. 
« Last Edit: April 10, 2018, 10:56:08 am by Hardhead »

Offline Big D

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Re: Stymied by the starter
« Reply #87 on: May 03, 2018, 08:26:02 pm »
Update: Problem was the clutch switch. I bypassed the switch and the starter engages with the button as it should. I have a new switch on order.

I wanted to thank everyone for their input and advice. Without you I would still be scratching my head and spewing four-letter words at an inanimate object lol. Again, thank you all.

Offline Redbarron

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Re: Stymied by the starter
« Reply #88 on: May 08, 2018, 10:45:09 am »
Hello Big D:

Glad to hear you got it figured out.  Look at it on the bright side! you learned not only what to do, but what not to do.

Keep the sticky side down. :motonoises:
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Offline Hardhead

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Re: Stymied by the starter
« Reply #89 on: May 08, 2018, 10:59:08 am »
Update: Problem was the clutch switch. I bypassed the switch and the starter engages with the button as it should. I have a new switch on order.

I wanted to thank everyone for their input and advice. Without you I would still be scratching my head and spewing four-letter words at an inanimate object lol. Again, thank you all.

Poke out your chest and be proud, you did a good job, hats off to you. Thank you for the comeback on what it took to fix it.
JD