Author Topic: Tap left side cover to get oil light and ignition power. What to replace first?  (Read 1027 times)

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Offline LeeM

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Sometimes  I have to tap the left side cover near the fusebox to get electricity to the oil pressure light, neutral light and ignition system.

I think I am at the beginning of a famous Connie electrical problem.  What is the most often worn out component behind this problem?

Ten days ago, on the very day I planned to start out on a  650 mile ride to the Eclipse, I replaced the battery. My Connie has 74,000 miles and I am sure my bike will need sooner or later a goodly number of electrical parts.

Here is a photo of me and my Connie at an Interstate 5 rest area in Oregon. Returning from the Eclipse, it took 9 hours to drive 181 miles (Albany, OR to Grant's Pass, OR) with no lanesplitting allowed.

Offline Mettler1

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  Search here.. Jbox

  http://forum.cog-online.org/search2/ JBox

   Jbox has some problems with relays and connection paths. Good place to start anyway.

https://www.bucksporttouring.com/

                         
« Last Edit: August 31, 2017, 02:31:42 am by Mettler1 »
'94 Concours 115,000 miles-- 7th gear,2MM,KB fork brace,Over flowtubes,Stick coils,Tcro shifter,GPS,SiSF'sTorque cams,SPOOKFAK,block off plates, SS brake & clutch lines,KB risers, FENDA EXTENDA, emulators, SiSF carb Spa, Delkevic exhaust, Murphs' knee savers +grips, etc

Offline danodemotoman

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 Not only a good place to check... JBOX... but once you get the solder points redone ... it is done 'forever'. You van pretty much exclude that when diagnosing present an future electrical issues.

Offline Jim

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That particular circuit in the J-Box is all tied to the IGNITION fuse.  Check to see if the fuse is loose.  The B/W wire coming out of the J-Box is connected to that fuse and goes to the Coil/Ignitor (through kill switch), Neutral/Oil pressure/temp gauge/tach/fuel gauge/clock.  So, if the wire looks good at the J-Box connector and further on, you could possibly have a cold solder joint at the blades that hold the fuse if you still had brake lights and turn signals.  If not, it could be the main relay or main fuse in the j-box.

Here's link to the j-box schematic someone had graciously supplied:
http://web.ncf.ca/ag136/junct2bnewc.gif
« Last Edit: August 31, 2017, 10:24:36 am by Jim »

Offline GeorgeRYoung

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I believe the source was Guy B. Young, no relation.

Offline RWulf

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Larry is doing them now. www.bucksporttouring.com

Offline connieklr

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I believe the source was Guy B. Young, no relation.

LOL!

Yeah, that was mine. Part of an article on the J-Box I did for my old column, Centerstand Chronicles, in The Concourier.
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Offline Catrinus

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Take the j box out, send it to Larry Buck, reinstall, and never have another worry.  Do it now, otherwise you WILL get stuck somewhere far from home!
94 C10 (since Oct 2013) CDA #528
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Offline ErikB_76

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Take the j box out, send it to Larry Buck, reinstall, and never have another worry.  Do it now, otherwise you WILL get stuck somewhere far from home!
+1 Do this ASAP.
2002 Connie
1997 Royal Star

Offline connie_rider

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I also suspect the J-box, but I suggest removing and cleaning or replacing fuses first with new.
Also; do a tap test on the fuse box itself, before doing the fuses..

You might get lucky and the only problem is the fuse contacts..

Ride safe, Ted
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Offline LeeM

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Re: Tap left side cover... Thanks to all. Jim's advice led me to a repair.
« Reply #10 on: September 06, 2017, 03:29:28 am »
Thanks to each of the posters for advice about how to fix the junction box problem.  I decided to take the junction box apart  because poster Jim had disassembled his jbox and he linked to me a really readable and understandable schematic of the Jbox with the ignition switch electrical path marked in red.

Here are highlights to a junction box repair.  I used a drill press and a .200" drill at 5 places not too deep to release the back cover plastic. For re-assembly at the end of the job use a good bonding tape to hold the back cover plastic in place. I used two 8" long strips of electrical tape to seal the top and bottom seams of the back cover.

The middle of  three relays on the junction box board has five solder points. Two of these solder points with a do-nothing solder point in-between  must show 330 ohms resistance. Follow the circuit trace and attach alligator test clips to the big beefy connection bars. Wiggle the relay case and watch for the coil resistance to go bad. After observing the problem, apply lead free solder heating both sides of the connection for good solder adhesion.

If you have a Clymer's manual, for a 2000 Concours,  focus on page 450 "All US, California and Canada models, 1986-1999 international models."  Look at the main relay device and see how the two coil leads of the relay go to pin 6 and 7 of the large connector. The connector is not logically numbered. Stay calm as you figure it out.

Next look at the Clymer's manual "Electrical System page 305 "Table 3 Relay Circuit Test 1". 

I am planning to purchase from Jameco.com a replacement for the Main relay.

The item is:
Electromechanical Relay Single Pole Double Throw 5 Amps Dc/10 Amps Ac 12 Volt 400Ohm Through Hole    Part no.: 172937 $1.95


Offline Mettler1

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   HUH???   I don't mess with those electron thingies. If I can't put wrench on it I don't mess with it!!!  :beerchug:  I sent my J-box to- www.bucksporttouring.com
'94 Concours 115,000 miles-- 7th gear,2MM,KB fork brace,Over flowtubes,Stick coils,Tcro shifter,GPS,SiSF'sTorque cams,SPOOKFAK,block off plates, SS brake & clutch lines,KB risers, FENDA EXTENDA, emulators, SiSF carb Spa, Delkevic exhaust, Murphs' knee savers +grips, etc

Offline kkja13

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LeeM thanks for the detailed description.  I've melted quite a bit of solder in my life so I would give it a shot if my connie ever develops this issue.
2004 C10
2003 Suzuki SV650s
2000 Kawasaki Eliminator 125 (75mpg!)
1993 Suzuki DR350; 1984 Honda XR200R (RFVC); 1985 Yamaha PW80; 1975 Yamaha DT175;
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Offline MAN OF BLUES

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Re: Tap left side cover... Thanks to all. Jim's advice led me to a repair.
« Reply #13 on: September 06, 2017, 08:46:40 pm »
Thanks to each of the posters for advice about how to fix the junction box problem.  I decided to take the junction box apart  because poster Jim had disassembled his jbox and he linked to me a really readable and understandable schematic of the Jbox with the ignition switch electrical path marked in red.

Here are highlights to a junction box repair.  I used a drill press and a .200" drill at 5 places not too deep to release the back cover plastic. For re-assembly at the end of the job use a good bonding tape to hold the back cover plastic in place. I used two 8" long strips of electrical tape to seal the top and bottom seams of the back cover.

The middle of  three relays on the junction box board has five solder points. Two of these solder points with a do-nothing solder point in-between  must show 330 ohms resistance. Follow the circuit trace and attach alligator test clips to the big beefy connection bars. Wiggle the relay case and watch for the coil resistance to go bad. After observing the problem, apply lead free solder heating both sides of the connection for good solder adhesion.

If you have a Clymer's manual, for a 2000 Concours,  focus on page 450 "All US, California and Canada models, 1986-1999 international models."  Look at the main relay device and see how the two coil leads of the relay go to pin 6 and 7 of the large connector. The connector is not logically numbered. Stay calm as you figure it out.

Next look at the Clymer's manual "Electrical System page 305 "Table 3 Relay Circuit Test 1". 

I am planning to purchase from Jameco.com a replacement for the Main relay.

The item is:
Electromechanical Relay Single Pole Double Throw 5 Amps Dc/10 Amps Ac 12 Volt 400Ohm Through Hole    Part no.: 172937 $1.95

The amp rating on that relay is way to low, iirc OEM is like 15-20 amp, Larry Buck installs 30 amp one I think, or at least 25 amp..

Might want to contact him..

30 YEARS OF KAW.....Rich R. (the other one..)  COG 5977  JUSTAMEMBAHNOW

Offline LeeM

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Man of Blues has an interesting point about what other mechanics are using for a replacement relay for the junction box main  relay. I have re-thought the relay current rating problem  and I found another replacement relay item.

Remembering my experience when the "main relay" was flaking out, I had tail lights, brake lights and turn signals working even though at the same time I had no green neutral light, no red oil pressure light, and no crank when pressing the starter thumb  button. So the "main relay" is definitely not a 30 Ampere monster that carries the whole power load of the engine and lights.

Thanks for pointing out that a 5 amp relay is too small. I see 10 and 15 amp fuses in the branch circuits, I would say a 10 or 15 amp rated relay is about right.
 
A higher amp Jameco.com relay is this one. I need to check my sketch, out in the garage, before ordering this item as a replacement for the main relay in the Kawasaki. The mounting pins may not fit the holes on the junction box board. A replacement relay has to have five mounting pins to fit the junction box holes. Space inside the junction box is tight and the relay has to match dimensions.

Relay T7cCType Single Pole Double Throw 12 Volt DC 15 Amp 400 Ohm Coil

Jameco part number 174432  Price $1.95

    Part no.: 174432

Thanks again to the Forum posters.

Offline WillyP

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If you have a 15amp fuse protecting the circuit, you should use a relay larger than 15amp.
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Offline Brian

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LeeM thanks for the detailed description.  I've melted quite a bit of solder in my life so I would give it a shot if my connie ever develops this issue.

Why wait. It's probably not if, its when.  If your handy with a soldering iron it is an easy job.
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Offline Redbarron

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Hello Lee:

The main relay should be capable of handling 10% more current than what the alternator is capable of producing.

When I had my POS J-box re-built a 40 amp main was installed.

Two other items to watch out for are the Molex connector for the alternator harness and the ignition switch.

I will be starting conversation related to just this issue shortly.
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Offline MAN OF BLUES

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Man of Blues has an interesting point about what other mechanics are using for a replacement relay for the junction box main  relay. I have re-thought the relay current rating problem  and I found another replacement relay item.

Remembering my experience when the "main relay" was flaking out, I had tail lights, brake lights and turn signals working even though at the same time I had no green neutral light, no red oil pressure light, and no crank when pressing the starter thumb  button. So the "main relay" is definitely not a 30 Ampere monster that carries the whole power load of the engine and lights.

Thanks for pointing out that a 5 amp relay is too small. I see 10 and 15 amp fuses in the branch circuits, I would say a 10 or 15 amp rated relay is about right.
 
A higher amp Jameco.com relay is this one. I need to check my sketch, out in the garage, before ordering this item as a replacement for the main relay in the Kawasaki. The mounting pins may not fit the holes on the junction box board. A replacement relay has to have five mounting pins to fit the junction box holes. Space inside the junction box is tight and the relay has to match dimensions.

Relay T7cCType Single Pole Double Throw 12 Volt DC 15 Amp 400 Ohm Coil

Jameco part number 174432  Price $1.95

    Part no.: 174432

Thanks again to the Forum posters.


This used to be the common relay people bought... but its only 10 amp...
Datasheet does show size and configuration tho, for use in finding a higher amp version...
http://www3.panasonic.biz/ac/e_download/control/relay/power/catalog/mech_eng_js.pdf

Might want to examine the tech hints also....


http://forum.cog-online.org/concours-c10-zg1000-general-chat-and-tech/jbox-rebuild/msg343691/#msg343691


I'll see if I can find the correct higher amp relay... going low cost route really isn't conducive to effective solution tho, get a good relay... from a good source...

30 YEARS OF KAW.....Rich R. (the other one..)  COG 5977  JUSTAMEMBAHNOW

Offline VTconnie

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Yeah I am all for DIY, but you should at least match the performance of the Larry Buck rebuilds. I had my J-box preemptively rebuilt a few years for Larry's nominal fee, and haven't given it a moments thought since.
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Offline connieklr

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When I was rebuilding the boxes, I was using a Song Chuan relay that had a 30A 15A contact rating @14VDC. I gave Larry my supply of the ones I had left when I stopped doing them. Not sure what he's using now.

FWIW - The PCB used in those boxes is a single-sided board, meaning there was only copper on one side only, the bottom. Because of that, the holes were not plated through making the only support for the component's leads was by the solder fillet on the bottom. The MAIN relay basically carried all of the bike's electrical load. Because it's contacts were under rated, they got warm/hot and that heat was transferred to the solder fillet. Throw in a little vibration and the joint cracked causing an annular ring to form around the relay's pin. This made the connection intermittent and allow a good portion of the bike's electrics to die.

And when I say "hot," I mean hot. The below was one of the boxes I fixed:



Care to venture a guess whose J-Box this was?

In the '86 through '93 models, the lights were the only thing affected. '94 and up they revised the electrics and if the MAIN relay, or it's solder joints took a dump, it also killed the ignition. IMHO - stoopid.

If you were tooling along in the hammer lane late in the evening in commuter traffic and your bike took a dump, you're as good as dead. Prior to the change, your lights basically went out - but - you did have the opportunity to make your way over to the side of the road and avoid being run over. Not one of Kawasaki's most intelligent decisions.

And FWIW - I think I only ever ran across two legitimately bad relays..... one of which was on my own '86 - go figure. 99.9% of the others could be fixed by simply re-flowing the solder joints.

« Last Edit: September 22, 2017, 09:37:22 pm by connieklr »
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Offline connie_rider

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Thanks Guy.
Greatly appreciated!!!

Ride safe, Ted
14 Connie (Traveler II)
03 Connie (Buddy)

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Offline MAN OF BLUES

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Guy,  :great: :great: :great: :beerchug: :beerchug:

Thank you 50x for posting that, I greatly apreciate it...
When the box on my '86 forked out, when I went to start the engine for my departure to a RWTW, I'm sure glad I had a couple spares from our scoop up of spare parts for the Isreal bikes..
Also glad you tossed me a relay or 2 for future repair... I ended up reflowing the solder on my old box, and all was good, but I did suck the solder out, pulled the relay, hot melt glue dabbed the board before inserting the new one, and never had an issue...  did aa pre emptive repeat on the box in COGZilla, and don't think it will ever need a repair ever...
I didn't want to divulge the maker of those relays, as I wasn't sure if they were still available, I also didn't want to give propiatary info which might have compromised Larry's current services, I like the fact he does a great job, and backs his work, for a very reasonable price...

But then, I know you understand, as whenever we all get together, seems like its "Los Tres Amigos'.... :beerchug: :great: :rotflmao:
We ARE old farts ain't we?....   well, you and Larry are.. I'm still young.... not. >:(

I'm hopeful you will continue to answer questions here on all manners of ZG1000 problems, you are my Guru bro, and I sure as heck can use the assistance...


30 YEARS OF KAW.....Rich R. (the other one..)  COG 5977  JUSTAMEMBAHNOW

Offline connie_rider

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I'm hopeful you will continue to answer questions here on all manners of ZG1000 problems, you are my Guru bro, and I sure as heck can use the assistance...[/b]

I'll second that!!   
1) connieklr / "Guy" Young is a C-10 Guru!!
2) M.O.B. needs all the help he can get!!   ;)  <evil grin>

{I never miss a chance to ping ya Buddy.}
   Ya thought I wasn't watchin', didn't ya??     :rotflmao:

Ride safe, Ted

« Last Edit: September 22, 2017, 10:09:28 pm by connie_rider »
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Offline MAN OF BLUES

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I was gonna bust yer nutz Ted, but wanted to credit Guy first..
 :rotflmao: :nananana: :nananana:

Besides, you always whine so much when I do mess with ya... love it....

 :rotflmao: :nananana: :rotflmao:
Soo consider yer nutz busted...

Hey, you can always hang out with me and Guy, and Larry....
You old fart.

Now, stay off my lawn..... :rotflmao:

30 YEARS OF KAW.....Rich R. (the other one..)  COG 5977  JUSTAMEMBAHNOW